Executive summary:

Tried a bottle of the Shiraz I made in January... it seemed just a tad
fizzy. What did I do wrong?

Detail:

I started it on January 29, racked it February 3, racked again February
12. By February 14 there was no sign of activity and the SG was .996 so
I added sulfite to stabilize it; this resulted in a *huge* amount of
foam. I used a drill-mounted stirrer for a full five minutes to distribute
the sulfite. Racked again March 7. Bottled late March (I can't believe
I didn't note the date, but there you have it).

Note that my temperature controls are seriously lacking: I live in
southern New Mexico and use a swamp cooler; the room with the wine gets
seriously warm during the day starting in April.

So... tried a bottle. Pouring it, it didn't look carbonated; no visible
bubbles. But drinking it, there was just a hint of a "fizzy" feel to it
on my tongue. So, first, am I accurately thinking it feels a bit like
it wound up slightly carbonated, or could this be from something else?
Does it just need more time in the bottle? Did I do something wrong
that I need to fix next year?

In article >, Joe Pfeiffer > wrote:
>Executive summary:
>
>Tried a bottle of the Shiraz I made in January... it seemed just a tad
>fizzy. What did I do wrong?
>
>Detail:
>
>I started it on January 29, racked it February 3, racked again February
>12. By February 14 there was no sign of activity and the SG was .996 so
>I added sulfite to stabilize it; this resulted in a *huge* amount of
>foam. I used a drill-mounted stirrer for a full five minutes to distribute
>the sulfite. Racked again March 7. Bottled late March (I can't believe
>I didn't note the date, but there you have it).
>
>Note that my temperature controls are seriously lacking: I live in
>southern New Mexico and use a swamp cooler; the room with the wine gets
>seriously warm during the day starting in April.
>
>So... tried a bottle. Pouring it, it didn't look carbonated; no visible
>bubbles. But drinking it, there was just a hint of a "fizzy" feel to it
>on my tongue. So, first, am I accurately thinking it feels a bit like
>it wound up slightly carbonated, or could this be from something else?
>Does it just need more time in the bottle? Did I do something wrong
>that I need to fix next year?

Yes, you did -- you didn't wait long enough. Winemaking is not a hobby for the
impatient. Next time, wait to bottle until six months after starting the wine.
A year is better. And wait to drink it, too.

Alternatively, you can degas the wine mechanically with one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP7830-.../dp/B0009XQUK2

Pump the vacuum as high as you can, and leave it for several hours. The vacuum
will decrease as more CO2 comes out of solution. When the vacuum will hold
for three hours at 525 mm or more, then you're done. I prefer not to bottle
mine until the vacuum is stable overnight at 550 mm.

I've pulled vacuums as high as 675 mm in glass carboys without damage. I
wouldn't try that with one of the plastic carboys, though -- I just don't
think they're strong enough.

For reference, CO2 bubbles ...
... will be visible at CO2 concentrations of 1000 mg/L or above; to reduce the
concentration below this level requires a vacuum of at least 275 mm (or lots
of time, or agitation, or repeated racking, or combinations of the above)
... can be felt in the mouth at 700 mg/L or above (425 mm vacuum)
... can be tasted at 500 mg/L or above (525 mm vacuum)

[Above figures based on temperature of 20 degrees C = 68 degrees F; as
temperature increases, CO2 solubility decreases. At 22 deg C = 72 deg F, the
vacuum levels required to achieve the concentrations noted above are 250, 400,
and 500 mm respectively.]

(Doug Miller) writes:

> In article >, Joe Pfeiffer > wrote:
>>Executive summary:
>>
>>Tried a bottle of the Shiraz I made in January... it seemed just a tad
>>fizzy. What did I do wrong?
>
> Yes, you did -- you didn't wait long enough. Winemaking is not a hobby for the
> impatient. Next time, wait to bottle until six months after starting the wine.
> A year is better. And wait to drink it, too.

Interesting -- that's much longer than any previous advice I've seen on
how long to wait. Next year I wait longer.

> Alternatively, you can degas the wine mechanically with one of these:
> http://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP7830-.../dp/B0009XQUK2
>
> Pump the vacuum as high as you can, and leave it for several hours. The vacuum
> will decrease as more CO2 comes out of solution. When the vacuum will hold
> for three hours at 525 mm or more, then you're done. I prefer not to bottle
> mine until the vacuum is stable overnight at 550 mm.

Though it sounds like just waiting longer is the right answer -- one
thing I will try is opening one of my bottles, putting a vacuum cork on
it, and repumping nightly for a while.... best try to salvage what I
can!

> I've pulled vacuums as high as 675 mm in glass carboys without damage. I
> wouldn't try that with one of the plastic carboys, though -- I just don't
> think they're strong enough.
>
> For reference, CO2 bubbles ...
> .. will be visible at CO2 concentrations of 1000 mg/L or above; to reduce the
> concentration below this level requires a vacuum of at least 275 mm (or lots
> of time, or agitation, or repeated racking, or combinations of the above)
> .. can be felt in the mouth at 700 mg/L or above (425 mm vacuum)
> .. can be tasted at 500 mg/L or above (525 mm vacuum)
>
> [Above figures based on temperature of 20 degrees C = 68 degrees F; as
> temperature increases, CO2 solubility decreases. At 22 deg C = 72 deg F, the
> vacuum levels required to achieve the concentrations noted above are 250, 400,
> and 500 mm respectively.]

Thanks. This is very good information.
--
"Erwin, have you seen the cat?" -- Mrs. Shroedinger

Joe:

Failure to degas sufficiently is one of the most common mistakes made
by home winemakers. Even experienced ones, sometimes screw up on this
point.

Steve

In article >, Joe Pfeiffer > wrote:
(Doug Miller) writes:
>
>> In article >, Joe Pfeiffer
> > wrote:
>>>Executive summary:
>>>
>>>Tried a bottle of the Shiraz I made in January... it seemed just a tad
>>>fizzy. What did I do wrong?
>>
>> Yes, you did -- you didn't wait long enough. Winemaking is not a hobby for the
>> impatient. Next time, wait to bottle until six months after starting the wine.
>> A year is better. And wait to drink it, too.
>
>Interesting -- that's much longer than any previous advice I've seen on
>how long to wait. Next year I wait longer.

It's certainly drinkable before six months -- the point is, the longer you
wait, the better it gets. And the less likely you'll have dissolved CO2.
>
>> Alternatively, you can degas the wine mechanically with one of these:
>> http://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP7830-.../dp/B0009XQUK2
>>
>> Pump the vacuum as high as you can, and leave it for several hours. The vacuum
>> will decrease as more CO2 comes out of solution. When the vacuum will hold
>> for three hours at 525 mm or more, then you're done. I prefer not to bottle
>> mine until the vacuum is stable overnight at 550 mm.
>
>Though it sounds like just waiting longer is the right answer -- one
>thing I will try is opening one of my bottles, putting a vacuum cork on
>it, and repumping nightly for a while.... best try to salvage what I
>can!

I wish you luck with that one. I assume you're talking about a Vacuvin or
similar; IME, those don't pull a high enough vacuum to really do any good.

If you've used natural corks, some of the CO2 will escape through the cork if
you just wait a few months.

Another option is letting the wine splash into your glass as you pour it, then
before drinking it, swirl it around in the glass as vigorously as you can
without spilling any. If the CO2 level is low enough that you can *just
barely* feel it on your tongue, that will probably release enough of it that
you won't be able to feel it any more.
>
>> I've pulled vacuums as high as 675 mm in glass carboys without damage. I
>> wouldn't try that with one of the plastic carboys, though -- I just don't
>> think they're strong enough.
>>
>> For reference, CO2 bubbles ...
>> .. will be visible at CO2 concentrations of 1000 mg/L or above; to reduce the
>> concentration below this level requires a vacuum of at least 275 mm (or lots
>> of time, or agitation, or repeated racking, or combinations of the above)
>> .. can be felt in the mouth at 700 mg/L or above (425 mm vacuum)
>> .. can be tasted at 500 mg/L or above (525 mm vacuum)
>>
>> [Above figures based on temperature of 20 degrees C = 68 degrees F; as
>> temperature increases, CO2 solubility decreases. At 22 deg C = 72 deg F, the
>> vacuum levels required to achieve the concentrations noted above are 250, 400,
>> and 500 mm respectively.]
>
>Thanks. This is very good information.

A good friend of mine is a chemist, and he dug up a technical paper describing
the effects of temperature and pressure on the solubility of CO2 in wine and
beer. I've had enough college chemistry to be able to understand the paper,
and build a spreadsheet that enabled me to calculate the extent of vacuum
needed to reduce the CO2 levels to the point where it couldn't be detected.
Those numbers came from my spreadsheet (rounded to the nearest 25mm, because
the vacuum gauge doesn't read any finer than that).

Greetings all winemakers!!!

Winemaking is a hobby and should be fun!!! Like bubbles in champagne!! however nothing fun about co2 in a red wine... I have two questions for U my friend. Did u try vacuum filtering your wine ( i believe this is the best way to degass your wine.. so do all the experts!). The second Q is where did you purchase your kit!!! The winemaster will be waiting for your reply and will make sure you get answers to your Qs!! (After consulting people for 27 years I think I earned the title Winemaster). Have a grape day!!

winemaster > writes:

> Joe Pfeiffer;1625975 Wrote:
>> Executive summary:
>>
>> Tried a bottle of the Shiraz I made in January... it seemed just a tad
>> fizzy. What did I do wrong?
>>
>> Detail:
>>
>> I started it on January 29, racked it February 3, racked again February
>> 12. By February 14 there was no sign of activity and the SG was .996
>> so
>> I added sulfite to stabilize it; this resulted in a *huge* amount of
>> foam. I used a drill-mounted stirrer for a full five minutes to
>> distribute
>> the sulfite. Racked again March 7. Bottled late March (I can't
>> believe
>> I didn't note the date, but there you have it).
>>
>> Note that my temperature controls are seriously lacking: I live in
>> southern New Mexico and use a swamp cooler; the room with the wine gets
>> seriously warm during the day starting in April.
>>
>> So... tried a bottle. Pouring it, it didn't look carbonated; no
>> visible
>> bubbles. But drinking it, there was just a hint of a "fizzy" feel to
>> it
>> on my tongue. So, first, am I accurately thinking it feels a bit like
>> it wound up slightly carbonated, or could this be from something else?
>> Does it just need more time in the bottle? Did I do something wrong
>> that I need to fix next year?
>
> Greetings all winemakers!!!
>
> Winemaking is a hobby and should be fun!!! Like bubbles in champagne!!
> however nothing fun about co2 in a red wine... I have two questions for
> U my friend. Did u try vacuum filtering your wine ( i believe this is
> the best way to degass your wine.. so do all the experts!). The second Q
> is where did you purchase your kit!!! The winemaster will be waiting for
> your reply and will make sure you get answers to your Qs!! (After
> consulting people for 27 years I think I earned the title Winemaster).
> Have a grape day!!

No, I didn't vacuum filter it -- it does sound from other responses that
my mistake was in not adequately degassing.

Which raises the question of what to do now... there was at least one
response that suggested that the CO2 would outgas naturally while in the
bottle. How long could I expect that to take? Alternatively, I do have
a good vacuum pump (for automotive a/c work).... so I guess I could
pull a vacuum on each bottle the day before I plan on opening...

"Joe Pfeiffer" > wrote in message
...
> winemaster > writes:
>
>> Joe Pfeiffer;1625975 Wrote:
>>> Executive summary:
>>>
>>> Tried a bottle of the Shiraz I made in January... it seemed just a tad
>>> fizzy. What did I do wrong?
>>>
>>> Detail:
>>>
>>> I started it on January 29, racked it February 3, racked again February
>>> 12. By February 14 there was no sign of activity and the SG was .996
>>> so
>>> I added sulfite to stabilize it; this resulted in a *huge* amount of
>>> foam. I used a drill-mounted stirrer for a full five minutes to
>>> distribute
>>> the sulfite. Racked again March 7. Bottled late March (I can't
>>> believe
>>> I didn't note the date, but there you have it).
>>>
>>> Note that my temperature controls are seriously lacking: I live in
>>> southern New Mexico and use a swamp cooler; the room with the wine gets
>>> seriously warm during the day starting in April.
>>>
>>> So... tried a bottle. Pouring it, it didn't look carbonated; no
>>> visible
>>> bubbles. But drinking it, there was just a hint of a "fizzy" feel to
>>> it
>>> on my tongue. So, first, am I accurately thinking it feels a bit like
>>> it wound up slightly carbonated, or could this be from something else?
>>> Does it just need more time in the bottle? Did I do something wrong
>>> that I need to fix next year?
>>
>> Greetings all winemakers!!!
>>
>> Winemaking is a hobby and should be fun!!! Like bubbles in champagne!!
>> however nothing fun about co2 in a red wine... I have two questions for
>> U my friend. Did u try vacuum filtering your wine ( i believe this is
>> the best way to degass your wine.. so do all the experts!). The second Q
>> is where did you purchase your kit!!! The winemaster will be waiting for
>> your reply and will make sure you get answers to your Qs!! (After
>> consulting people for 27 years I think I earned the title Winemaster).
>> Have a grape day!!
>
> No, I didn't vacuum filter it -- it does sound from other responses that
> my mistake was in not adequately degassing.
>
> Which raises the question of what to do now... there was at least one
> response that suggested that the CO2 would outgas naturally while in the
> bottle. How long could I expect that to take? Alternatively, I do have
> a good vacuum pump (for automotive a/c work).... so I guess I could
> pull a vacuum on each bottle the day before I plan on opening...

I'd just plan on decanting (splashing) into a carafe an hour or so before
serving.

In article >,
says...
> > Which raises the question of what to do now... there was at least one
> > response that suggested that the CO2 would outgas naturally while in the
> > bottle. How long could I expect that to take? Alternatively, I do have
> > a good vacuum pump (for automotive a/c work).... so I guess I could
> > pull a vacuum on each bottle the day before I plan on opening...
>
> I'd just plan on decanting (splashing) into a carafe an hour or so before
> serving.
>
>

Or 10 minutes and give it a good agitation with a long spoon

--
In vino veritas,
In cervisia coelum,
In aqua bacteria.

Dave Budd > writes:

> In article >,
> says...
>> > Which raises the question of what to do now... there was at least one
>> > response that suggested that the CO2 would outgas naturally while in the
>> > bottle. How long could I expect that to take? Alternatively, I do have
>> > a good vacuum pump (for automotive a/c work).... so I guess I could
>> > pull a vacuum on each bottle the day before I plan on opening...
>>
>> I'd just plan on decanting (splashing) into a carafe an hour or so before
>> serving.
>
> Or 10 minutes and give it a good agitation with a long spoon

Tried another bottle -- the extra time in bottle helped some. I
splashed into a decanter (always try the easiest fix first!) an hour
before dinner, but didn't notice a significant enough difference to
worry about.... put it back in the bottle and put vacuum cork on it
(yes, one of the little hand-operated vacuums); next day it seems
better.

If I got desperate I could draw a real vacuum -- I've got a pump
designed for car air conditioning systems....