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Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any CountryWines

I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
on the subject. Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
for each country wine or classic grape wine?

I'm just interested in general. My specific concern is (as per my
reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

Any help gratefully received as ever...
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Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any Country Wines

In article
>,
jim c > wrote:

> I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> on the subject. Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
> attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
> for each country wine or classic grape wine?
>
> I'm just interested in general. My specific concern is (as per my
> reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...
>
> Any help gratefully received as ever...


Pick for maturity, not acidity.
There are no minimums or maximums for acidity, as there are for alcohol,
volatile acidity, and SO2. Even alcohol only enters into regulation when
you are trying to produce a wine with an "appellation contrôllée" type
designation, otherwise acidity levels come under the heading of style.
Robert Parker likes high alcohol, low acid wines for sipping (they also
show better in competition, where they are served without food). Wines
that accompany food (the main course) will usually have around .6 to
..7g/100ml calculated as tartaric.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull
http://countercurrents.org/roberts020709.htm
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Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any CountryWines

A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and 3.4 for a
fruit wine with sugar added.


On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:
> I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
> attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
> for each country wine or classic grape wine?
>
> I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...
>
> Any help gratefully received as ever...


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Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any CountryWines

On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:
> A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> fruit wine with sugar added.
>
> On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:
>
> > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
> > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
> > for each country wine or classic grape wine?

>
> > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

>
> > Any help gratefully received as ever...


Mm thanks for that. I followed the info in Kellers page which I think
(though it is expressed in percent rather than ppt if I remember
rightly - being English I prefer ppt,) offers similar limits. I
adjusted to that higher end. I guess what I am going to have to do is
bite the bullet and attempt to adjust by taste. I just don't trust my
ability to repeatedly taste the same wine at different acidities over
and over again and properly taste the level at which it is right.

I will keep your guide parameters in mind mr doubles and go by taste
also.

Kind regards, Jim
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Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any CountryWines

Jim,

Remember what TA and PH represent. TA(total accidity) is exactly what
it means but it depends on the strength of the acids representing the
the total amount. You could have a lower TA and still have an acidic
tasting wine if the acids in the wine are strong. OTOH, if your the PH
measures the total strength of all the acids. I like PH because the
total amount of acid (TA) ,to me is irrelevant if it still tastes bad
(acidic). I use PH (strength of all the acids combined) as a guide and
make finer adjustments thru taste. Most of the time if the PH is close
the taste adjustments with fruit wine can be made with sugar.


On Jan 20, 6:43*am, jim c > wrote:
> On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > fruit wine with sugar added.

>
> > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
> > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
> > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?

>
> > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

>
> > > Any help gratefully received as ever...

>
> Mm thanks for that. *I followed the info in Kellers page which I think
> (though it is expressed in percent rather than ppt if I remember
> rightly - being English I prefer ppt,) offers similar limits. *I
> adjusted to that higher end. *I guess what I am going to have to do is
> bite the bullet and attempt to adjust by taste. *I just don't trust my
> ability to repeatedly taste the *same wine at different acidities over
> and over again and properly taste the level at which it is right.
>
> I will keep your guide parameters in mind mr doubles and go by taste
> also.
>
> Kind regards, Jim




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Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any CountryWines

On Jan 20, 2:01*pm, wrote:
> Jim,
>
> Remember what TA and PH represent. TA(total accidity) is exactly what
> it means but it depends on the strength of the acids representing the
> the total amount. *You could have a lower TA and still have an acidic
> tasting wine if the acids in the wine are strong. OTOH, if your the PH
> measures the total strength of all the acids. I like PH because the
> total amount of acid (TA) ,to me is irrelevant if it still tastes bad
> (acidic). I use PH (strength of all the acids combined) as a guide and
> make finer adjustments thru taste. Most of the time if the PH is close
> the taste adjustments with fruit wine can be made with sugar.
>
> On Jan 20, 6:43*am, jim c > wrote:
>
> > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:

>
> > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > > fruit wine with sugar added.

>
> > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
> > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
> > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?

>
> > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

>
> > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...

>
> > Mm thanks for that. *I followed the info in Kellers page which I think
> > (though it is expressed in percent rather than ppt if I remember
> > rightly - being English I prefer ppt,) offers similar limits. *I
> > adjusted to that higher end. *I guess what I am going to have to do is
> > bite the bullet and attempt to adjust by taste. *I just don't trust my
> > ability to repeatedly taste the *same wine at different acidities over
> > and over again and properly taste the level at which it is right.

>
> > I will keep your guide parameters in mind mr doubles and go by taste
> > also.

>
> > Kind regards, Jim


I'm not sure how close it is. It is noticeably too sour. Adjusting
with sugar may be another call my inexperienced mouth might flop at!
It's a minefield. I wish I'd gone more conservative on the acid front
now, but the additions I made weren't far different to many recipes I
have seen.

Thanks for the advice again!

Jim
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Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any CountryWines

So you added acid? LOL. What acid did you add?

On Jan 21, 9:23*pm, jim c > wrote:
> On Jan 20, 2:01*pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Jim,

>
> > Remember what TA and PH represent. TA(total accidity) is exactly what
> > it means but it depends on the strength of the acids representing the
> > the total amount. *You could have a lower TA and still have an acidic
> > tasting wine if the acids in the wine are strong. OTOH, if your the PH
> > measures the total strength of all the acids. I like PH because the
> > total amount of acid (TA) ,to me is irrelevant if it still tastes bad
> > (acidic). I use PH (strength of all the acids combined) as a guide and
> > make finer adjustments thru taste. Most of the time if the PH is close
> > the taste adjustments with fruit wine can be made with sugar.

>
> > On Jan 20, 6:43*am, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:

>
> > > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > > > fruit wine with sugar added.

>
> > > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
> > > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
> > > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?

>
> > > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

>
> > > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...

>
> > > Mm thanks for that. *I followed the info in Kellers page which I think
> > > (though it is expressed in percent rather than ppt if I remember
> > > rightly - being English I prefer ppt,) offers similar limits. *I
> > > adjusted to that higher end. *I guess what I am going to have to do is
> > > bite the bullet and attempt to adjust by taste. *I just don't trust my
> > > ability to repeatedly taste the *same wine at different acidities over
> > > and over again and properly taste the level at which it is right.

>
> > > I will keep your guide parameters in mind mr doubles and go by taste
> > > also.

>
> > > Kind regards, Jim

>
> I'm not sure how close it is. *It is noticeably too sour. *Adjusting
> with sugar may be another call my inexperienced mouth might flop at!
> It's a minefield. *I wish I'd gone more conservative on the acid front
> now, but the additions I made weren't far different to many recipes I
> have seen.
>
> Thanks for the advice again!
>
> Jim


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Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any CountryWines

On Jan 22, 3:17*am, wrote:
> So you added acid? LOL. What acid did you add?
>
> On Jan 21, 9:23*pm, jim c > wrote:
>
> > On Jan 20, 2:01*pm, wrote:

>
> > > Jim,

>
> > > Remember what TA and PH represent. TA(total accidity) is exactly what
> > > it means but it depends on the strength of the acids representing the
> > > the total amount. *You could have a lower TA and still have an acidic
> > > tasting wine if the acids in the wine are strong. OTOH, if your the PH
> > > measures the total strength of all the acids. I like PH because the
> > > total amount of acid (TA) ,to me is irrelevant if it still tastes bad
> > > (acidic). I use PH (strength of all the acids combined) as a guide and
> > > make finer adjustments thru taste. Most of the time if the PH is close
> > > the taste adjustments with fruit wine can be made with sugar.

>
> > > On Jan 20, 6:43*am, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:

>
> > > > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > > > > fruit wine with sugar added.

>
> > > > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > > > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > > > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
> > > > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
> > > > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?

>
> > > > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > > > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > > > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > > > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

>
> > > > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...

>
> > > > Mm thanks for that. *I followed the info in Kellers page which I think
> > > > (though it is expressed in percent rather than ppt if I remember
> > > > rightly - being English I prefer ppt,) offers similar limits. *I
> > > > adjusted to that higher end. *I guess what I am going to have to do is
> > > > bite the bullet and attempt to adjust by taste. *I just don't trust my
> > > > ability to repeatedly taste the *same wine at different acidities over
> > > > and over again and properly taste the level at which it is right.

>
> > > > I will keep your guide parameters in mind mr doubles and go by taste
> > > > also.

>
> > > > Kind regards, Jim

>
> > I'm not sure how close it is. *It is noticeably too sour. *Adjusting
> > with sugar may be another call my inexperienced mouth might flop at!
> > It's a minefield. *I wish I'd gone more conservative on the acid front
> > now, but the additions I made weren't far different to many recipes I
> > have seen.

>
> > Thanks for the advice again!

>
> > Jim


Yes, as per Keller reipes for blackberry wines and elderberry wines I
used a little acid blend. The batch I made previously without
blackberries seemed pretty much spot on to me - I guess the
blackberries were more acidic than Keller's recipe imagined. I
titrated and added acid accordingly (to just under the higher end of
the acid scale for red country wines) noting that the addition was
just slightly over the amount recipes for similar wines suggested.
Perhaps the blackberries hadn't released all their acidic goodness by
that point.

Jim
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Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any Country Wines

In article
>,
jim c > wrote:

> On Jan 22, 3:17*am, wrote:
> > So you added acid? LOL. What acid did you add?
> >
> > On Jan 21, 9:23*pm, jim c > wrote:
> >
> > > On Jan 20, 2:01*pm, wrote:

> >
> > > > Jim,

> >
> > > > Remember what TA and PH represent. TA(total accidity) is exactly what
> > > > it means but it depends on the strength of the acids representing the
> > > > the total amount. *You could have a lower TA and still have an acidic
> > > > tasting wine if the acids in the wine are strong. OTOH, if your the PH
> > > > measures the total strength of all the acids. I like PH because the
> > > > total amount of acid (TA) ,to me is irrelevant if it still tastes bad
> > > > (acidic). I use PH (strength of all the acids combined) as a guide and
> > > > make finer adjustments thru taste. Most of the time if the PH is close
> > > > the taste adjustments with fruit wine can be made with sugar.

> >
> > > > On Jan 20, 6:43*am, jim c > wrote:

> >
> > > > > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:

> >
> > > > > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > > > > > fruit wine with sugar added.

> >
> > > > > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:

> >
> > > > > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and
> > > > > > > palettes
> > > > > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource
> > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid
> > > > > > > levels
> > > > > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?

> >
> > > > > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per
> > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines
> > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I
> > > > > > > attempt
> > > > > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

> >
> > > > > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...

> >
> > > > > Mm thanks for that. *I followed the info in Kellers page which I
> > > > > think
> > > > > (though it is expressed in percent rather than ppt if I remember
> > > > > rightly - being English I prefer ppt,) offers similar limits. *I
> > > > > adjusted to that higher end. *I guess what I am going to have to do
> > > > > is
> > > > > bite the bullet and attempt to adjust by taste. *I just don't trust
> > > > > my
> > > > > ability to repeatedly taste the *same wine at different acidities
> > > > > over
> > > > > and over again and properly taste the level at which it is right.

> >
> > > > > I will keep your guide parameters in mind mr doubles and go by taste
> > > > > also.

> >
> > > > > Kind regards, Jim

> >
> > > I'm not sure how close it is. *It is noticeably too sour. *Adjusting
> > > with sugar may be another call my inexperienced mouth might flop at!
> > > It's a minefield. *I wish I'd gone more conservative on the acid front
> > > now, but the additions I made weren't far different to many recipes I
> > > have seen.

> >
> > > Thanks for the advice again!

> >
> > > Jim

>
> Yes, as per Keller reipes for blackberry wines and elderberry wines I
> used a little acid blend. The batch I made previously without
> blackberries seemed pretty much spot on to me - I guess the
> blackberries were more acidic than Keller's recipe imagined. I
> titrated and added acid accordingly (to just under the higher end of
> the acid scale for red country wines) noting that the addition was
> just slightly over the amount recipes for similar wines suggested.
> Perhaps the blackberries hadn't released all their acidic goodness by
> that point.
>
> Jim


In the future, do acid trials with a 20% solution (20g tartaric brought
to a volume of 100ml), and use .10ml of 20% sol./50ml of wine to add the
equivalent of .05g/100ml to your wine.

Have you had your wine with food, or is this to be a sippin' wine?

How much of what did you add? Malic is more sour than tartaric, for
example (it drops the pH more than an equivalent amount of tartaric).

Have you titrated for total acidity, pH?
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...ting_activists
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines
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Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any CountryWines

On Jan 24, 7:03*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> In article
> >,
> *jim c > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 22, 3:17*am, wrote:
> > > So you added acid? LOL. What acid did you add?

>
> > > On Jan 21, 9:23*pm, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > On Jan 20, 2:01*pm, wrote:

>
> > > > > Jim,

>
> > > > > Remember what TA and PH represent. TA(total accidity) is exactly what
> > > > > it means but it depends on the strength of the acids representing the
> > > > > the total amount. *You could have a lower TA and still have an acidic
> > > > > tasting wine if the acids in the wine are strong. OTOH, if your the PH
> > > > > measures the total strength of all the acids. I like PH because the
> > > > > total amount of acid (TA) ,to me is irrelevant if it still tastes bad
> > > > > (acidic). I use PH (strength of all the acids combined) as a guide and
> > > > > make finer adjustments thru taste. Most of the time if the PH is close
> > > > > the taste adjustments with fruit wine can be made with sugar.

>
> > > > > On Jan 20, 6:43*am, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:

>
> > > > > > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > > > > > > fruit wine with sugar added.

>
> > > > > > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and
> > > > > > > > palettes
> > > > > > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource
> > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid
> > > > > > > > levels
> > > > > > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?

>
> > > > > > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per
> > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines
> > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I
> > > > > > > > attempt
> > > > > > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

>
> > > > > > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...

>
> > > > > > Mm thanks for that. *I followed the info in Kellers page which I
> > > > > > think
> > > > > > (though it is expressed in percent rather than ppt if I remember
> > > > > > rightly - being English I prefer ppt,) offers similar limits. *I
> > > > > > adjusted to that higher end. *I guess what I am going to have to do
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > bite the bullet and attempt to adjust by taste. *I just don't trust
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > ability to repeatedly taste the *same wine at different acidities
> > > > > > over
> > > > > > and over again and properly taste the level at which it is right.



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Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any CountryWines

Jim, I was told long ago by a very good winemaker that PH is the only
thing you should take into consideration before fermenting. I've been
doing it that way ever since and never had a problem. TA is done after
the ferment.


On Jan 24, 5:10*am, jlyndon > wrote:
> On Jan 24, 7:03*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > >,
> > *jim c > wrote:

>
> > > On Jan 22, 3:17*am, wrote:
> > > > So you added acid? LOL. What acid did you add?

>
> > > > On Jan 21, 9:23*pm, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > On Jan 20, 2:01*pm, wrote:

>
> > > > > > Jim,

>
> > > > > > Remember what TA and PH represent. TA(total accidity) is exactly what
> > > > > > it means but it depends on the strength of the acids representing the
> > > > > > the total amount. *You could have a lower TA and still have an acidic
> > > > > > tasting wine if the acids in the wine are strong. OTOH, if your the PH
> > > > > > measures the total strength of all the acids. I like PH because the
> > > > > > total amount of acid (TA) ,to me is irrelevant if it still tastes bad
> > > > > > (acidic). I use PH (strength of all the acids combined) as a guide and
> > > > > > make finer adjustments thru taste. Most of the time if the PH is close
> > > > > > the taste adjustments with fruit wine can be made with sugar.

>
> > > > > > On Jan 20, 6:43*am, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > > > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:

>
> > > > > > > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3..4 for a
> > > > > > > > fruit wine with sugar added.

>
> > > > > > > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > > > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and
> > > > > > > > > palettes
> > > > > > > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource
> > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid
> > > > > > > > > levels
> > > > > > > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?

>
> > > > > > > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per
> > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines
> > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I
> > > > > > > > > attempt
> > > > > > > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

>
> > > > > > > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...

>
> > > > > > > Mm thanks for that. *I followed the info in Kellers page which I
> > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > (though it is expressed in percent rather than ppt if I remember
> > > > > > > rightly - being English I prefer ppt,) offers similar limits. *I
> > > > > > > adjusted to that higher end. *I guess what I am going to have to do
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > bite the bullet and attempt to adjust by taste. *I just don't trust
> > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > ability to repeatedly taste the *same wine at different acidities
> > > > > > > over
> > > > > > > and over again and properly taste the level at which it is right.

>
> > > > > > > I will keep your guide parameters in mind mr doubles and go by taste
> > > > > > > also.

>
> > > > > > > Kind regards, Jim

>
> > > > > I'm not sure how close it is. *It is noticeably too sour. *Adjusting
> > > > > with sugar may be another call my inexperienced mouth might flop at!
> > > > > It's a minefield. *I wish I'd gone more conservative on the acid front
> > > > > now, but the additions I made weren't far different to many recipes I
> > > > > have seen.

>
> > > > > Thanks for the advice again!

>
> > > > > Jim

>
> > > Yes, as per Keller reipes for blackberry wines and elderberry wines I
> > > used a little acid blend. *The batch I made previously without
> > > blackberries seemed pretty much spot on to me - I guess the
> > > blackberries were more acidic than Keller's recipe imagined. *I
> > > titrated and added acid accordingly (to just under the higher end of
> > > the acid scale for red country wines) noting that the addition was
> > > just slightly over the amount recipes for similar wines suggested.
> > > Perhaps the blackberries hadn't released all their acidic goodness by
> > > that point.

>
> > > Jim

>
> > In the future, do acid trials with a 20% solution (20g tartaric brought
> > to a volume of 100ml), and use .10ml of 20% sol./50ml of wine to add the
> > equivalent of .05g/100ml to your wine.

>
> > Have you had your wine with food, or is this to be a sippin' wine?

>
> > How much of what did you add? Malic is more sour than tartaric, for
> > example (it drops the pH more than an equivalent amount of tartaric).

>
> > Have you titrated for total acidity, pH?
> > --
> > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

>
> >http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...srael_arrestin...

>
> The acid was added to the must, not the finished wine. *As I said, I
> titrated at the must stage and adjusted to under the maximum for
> country reds. *The final adjustment was only 6 1/4 tsp of acid blend
> (in the usual ratio as per Keller) in total for a 5 uk gallon (6 us
> gallon) batch, minimal addition really.
>
> I will be doing another titration before deciding whether I should
> ajust or enjoy as is, it's just *a little sour* nothing I can't live
> with, but something I won't if needs be *Thanks for all your
> comments.
>
> Jim


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Posts: 74
Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any CountryWines

On Jan 24, 2:35*pm, wrote:
> Jim, I was told long ago by a very good winemaker that PH is the only
> thing you should take into consideration before fermenting. I've been
> doing it that way ever since and never had a problem. TA is done after
> the ferment.
>
> On Jan 24, 5:10*am, jlyndon > wrote:
>
> > On Jan 24, 7:03*am, Wildbilly > wrote:

>
> > > In article
> > > >,
> > > *jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > On Jan 22, 3:17*am, wrote:
> > > > > So you added acid? LOL. What acid did you add?

>
> > > > > On Jan 21, 9:23*pm, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > > On Jan 20, 2:01*pm, wrote:

>
> > > > > > > Jim,

>
> > > > > > > Remember what TA and PH represent. TA(total accidity) is exactly what
> > > > > > > it means but it depends on the strength of the acids representing the
> > > > > > > the total amount. *You could have a lower TA and still have an acidic
> > > > > > > tasting wine if the acids in the wine are strong. OTOH, if your the PH
> > > > > > > measures the total strength of all the acids. I like PH because the
> > > > > > > total amount of acid (TA) ,to me is irrelevant if it still tastes bad
> > > > > > > (acidic). I use PH (strength of all the acids combined) as a guide and
> > > > > > > make finer adjustments thru taste. Most of the time if the PH is close
> > > > > > > the taste adjustments with fruit wine can be made with sugar.

>
> > > > > > > On Jan 20, 6:43*am, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > > > > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:

>
> > > > > > > > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > > > > > > > > fruit wine with sugar added.

>
> > > > > > > > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > > > > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and
> > > > > > > > > > palettes
> > > > > > > > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource
> > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid
> > > > > > > > > > levels
> > > > > > > > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?

>
> > > > > > > > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per
> > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines
> > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I
> > > > > > > > > > attempt
> > > > > > > > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

>
> > > > > > > > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...

>
> > > > > > > > Mm thanks for that. *I followed the info in Kellers page which I
> > > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > (though it is expressed in percent rather than ppt if I remember
> > > > > > > > rightly - being English I prefer ppt,) offers similar limits. *I
> > > > > > > > adjusted to that higher end. *I guess what I am going to have to do
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > bite the bullet and attempt to adjust by taste. *I just don't trust
> > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > ability to repeatedly taste the *same wine at different acidities
> > > > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > and over again and properly taste the level at which it is right.

>
> > > > > > > > I will keep your guide parameters in mind mr doubles and go by taste
> > > > > > > > also.

>
> > > > > > > > Kind regards, Jim

>
> > > > > > I'm not sure how close it is. *It is noticeably too sour. *Adjusting
> > > > > > with sugar may be another call my inexperienced mouth might flop at!
> > > > > > It's a minefield. *I wish I'd gone more conservative on the acid front
> > > > > > now, but the additions I made weren't far different to many recipes I
> > > > > > have seen.

>
> > > > > > Thanks for the advice again!

>
> > > > > > Jim

>
> > > > Yes, as per Keller reipes for blackberry wines and elderberry wines I
> > > > used a little acid blend. *The batch I made previously without
> > > > blackberries seemed pretty much spot on to me - I guess the
> > > > blackberries were more acidic than Keller's recipe imagined. *I
> > > > titrated and added acid accordingly (to just under the higher end of
> > > > the acid scale for red country wines) noting that the addition was
> > > > just slightly over the amount recipes for similar wines suggested.
> > > > Perhaps the blackberries hadn't released all their acidic goodness by
> > > > that point.

>
> > > > Jim

>
> > > In the future, do acid trials with a 20% solution (20g tartaric brought
> > > to a volume of 100ml), and use .10ml of 20% sol./50ml of wine to add the
> > > equivalent of .05g/100ml to your wine.

>
> > > Have you had your wine with food, or is this to be a sippin' wine?

>
> > > How much of what did you add? Malic is more sour than tartaric, for
> > > example (it drops the pH more than an equivalent amount of tartaric).

>
> > > Have you titrated for total acidity, pH?
> > > --
> > > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

>
> > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...srael_arrestin....

>
> > The acid was added to the must, not the finished wine. *As I said, I
> > titrated at the must stage and adjusted to under the maximum for
> > country reds. *The final adjustment was only 6 1/4 tsp of acid blend
> > (in the usual ratio as per Keller) in total for a 5 uk gallon (6 us
> > gallon) batch, minimal addition really.

>
> > I will be doing another titration before deciding whether I should
> > ajust or enjoy as is, it's just *a little sour* nothing I can't live
> > with, but something I won't if needs be *Thanks for all your
> > comments.

>
> > Jim


Wow, that's news to me!!! Maybe I should invest in a ph meter again
then... I haven't had one of those since my days playing with
hydroponics...

I am guessing I am not faaaaaaar off with the small amount of acid
added, but I shall titrate and check again. The last thing I want to
do is bottle it and regret not adjusting (if totally necessary) for
the rest of its shelf life.

Cheers, Jim
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Posts: 46
Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any Country Wines

In article
>,
jlyndon > wrote:

> On Jan 24, 7:03*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> > *jim c > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jan 22, 3:17*am, wrote:
> > > > So you added acid? LOL. What acid did you add?

> >
> > > > On Jan 21, 9:23*pm, jim c > wrote:

> >
> > > > > On Jan 20, 2:01*pm, wrote:

> >
> > > > > > Jim,

> >
> > > > > > Remember what TA and PH represent. TA(total accidity) is exactly
> > > > > > what
> > > > > > it means but it depends on the strength of the acids representing
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > the total amount. *You could have a lower TA and still have an
> > > > > > acidic
> > > > > > tasting wine if the acids in the wine are strong. OTOH, if your the
> > > > > > PH
> > > > > > measures the total strength of all the acids. I like PH because the
> > > > > > total amount of acid (TA) ,to me is irrelevant if it still tastes
> > > > > > bad
> > > > > > (acidic). I use PH (strength of all the acids combined) as a guide
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > make finer adjustments thru taste. Most of the time if the PH is
> > > > > > close
> > > > > > the taste adjustments with fruit wine can be made with sugar.

> >
> > > > > > On Jan 20, 6:43*am, jim c > wrote:

> >
> > > > > > > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:

> >
> > > > > > > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for
> > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > fruit wine with sugar added.

> >
> > > > > > > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:

> >
> > > > > > > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the
> > > > > > > > > characteristics
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and
> > > > > > > > > palettes
> > > > > > > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a
> > > > > > > > > resource
> > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of
> > > > > > > > > acid
> > > > > > > > > levels
> > > > > > > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?

> >
> > > > > > > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as
> > > > > > > > > per
> > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry
> > > > > > > > > wines
> > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I
> > > > > > > > > attempt
> > > > > > > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

> >
> > > > > > > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...

> >
> > > > > > > Mm thanks for that. *I followed the info in Kellers page which I
> > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > (though it is expressed in percent rather than ppt if I remember
> > > > > > > rightly - being English I prefer ppt,) offers similar limits. *I
> > > > > > > adjusted to that higher end. *I guess what I am going to have to
> > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > bite the bullet and attempt to adjust by taste. *I just don't
> > > > > > > trust
> > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > ability to repeatedly taste the *same wine at different acidities
> > > > > > > over
> > > > > > > and over again and properly taste the level at which it is right.

> >
> > > > > > > I will keep your guide parameters in mind mr doubles and go by
> > > > > > > taste
> > > > > > > also.

> >
> > > > > > > Kind regards, Jim

> >
> > > > > I'm not sure how close it is. *It is noticeably too sour. *Adjusting
> > > > > with sugar may be another call my inexperienced mouth might flop at!
> > > > > It's a minefield. *I wish I'd gone more conservative on the acid
> > > > > front
> > > > > now, but the additions I made weren't far different to many recipes I
> > > > > have seen.

> >
> > > > > Thanks for the advice again!

> >
> > > > > Jim

> >
> > > Yes, as per Keller reipes for blackberry wines and elderberry wines I
> > > used a little acid blend. *The batch I made previously without
> > > blackberries seemed pretty much spot on to me - I guess the
> > > blackberries were more acidic than Keller's recipe imagined. *I
> > > titrated and added acid accordingly (to just under the higher end of
> > > the acid scale for red country wines) noting that the addition was
> > > just slightly over the amount recipes for similar wines suggested.
> > > Perhaps the blackberries hadn't released all their acidic goodness by
> > > that point.

> >
> > > Jim

> >
> > In the future, do acid trials with a 20% solution (20g tartaric brought
> > to a volume of 100ml), and use .10ml of 20% sol./50ml of wine to add the
> > equivalent of .05g/100ml to your wine.
> >
> > Have you had your wine with food, or is this to be a sippin' wine?
> >
> > How much of what did you add? Malic is more sour than tartaric, for
> > example (it drops the pH more than an equivalent amount of tartaric).
> >
> > Have you titrated for total acidity, pH?
> > --
> > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
> >
> > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...rrestin...http
> > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

>
> The acid was added to the must, not the finished wine. As I said, I
> titrated at the must stage and adjusted to under the maximum for
> country reds. The final adjustment was only 6 1/4 tsp of acid blend
> (in the usual ratio as per Keller) in total for a 5 uk gallon (6 us
> gallon) batch, minimal addition really.
>
> I will be doing another titration before deciding whether I should
> ajust or enjoy as is, it's just *a little sour* nothing I can't live
> with, but something I won't if needs be Thanks for all your
> comments.
>
> Jim


Try it with food. The oils and greases in food may take the edge off
your wine.

As I understand it, the wine is already racked and bottled, right?
The only thing I can think of is, if part of your acid blend was malic,
you may be able to induce a secondary fermentation in the wine, and
convert the sharp malic acid to the softer lactic acid. It's easier, if
the wine is on lees though. Or you might try some chalk (CaCO3) trials,
to see if that could be a satisfactory answer.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...ting_activists
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines
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Posts: 74
Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any CountryWines

On Jan 25, 2:23*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> In article
> >,
>
>
>
> *jlyndon > wrote:
> > On Jan 24, 7:03*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > > In article
> > > >,
> > > *jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > On Jan 22, 3:17*am, wrote:
> > > > > So you added acid? LOL. What acid did you add?

>
> > > > > On Jan 21, 9:23*pm, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > > On Jan 20, 2:01*pm, wrote:

>
> > > > > > > Jim,

>
> > > > > > > Remember what TA and PH represent. TA(total accidity) is exactly
> > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > it means but it depends on the strength of the acids representing
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > the total amount. *You could have a lower TA and still have an
> > > > > > > acidic
> > > > > > > tasting wine if the acids in the wine are strong. OTOH, if your the
> > > > > > > PH
> > > > > > > measures the total strength of all the acids. I like PH because the
> > > > > > > total amount of acid (TA) ,to me is irrelevant if it still tastes
> > > > > > > bad
> > > > > > > (acidic). I use PH (strength of all the acids combined) as a guide
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > make finer adjustments thru taste. Most of the time if the PH is
> > > > > > > close
> > > > > > > the taste adjustments with fruit wine can be made with sugar.

>
> > > > > > > On Jan 20, 6:43*am, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > > > > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:

>
> > > > > > > > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for
> > > > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > > fruit wine with sugar added.

>
> > > > > > > > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > > > > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the
> > > > > > > > > > characteristics
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and
> > > > > > > > > > palettes
> > > > > > > > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a
> > > > > > > > > > resource
> > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of
> > > > > > > > > > acid
> > > > > > > > > > levels
> > > > > > > > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?

>
> > > > > > > > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as
> > > > > > > > > > per
> > > > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry
> > > > > > > > > > wines
> > > > > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I
> > > > > > > > > > attempt
> > > > > > > > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

>
> > > > > > > > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...

>
> > > > > > > > Mm thanks for that. *I followed the info in Kellers page which I
> > > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > (though it is expressed in percent rather than ppt if I remember
> > > > > > > > rightly - being English I prefer ppt,) offers similar limits. *I
> > > > > > > > adjusted to that higher end. *I guess what I am going to have to
> > > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > bite the bullet and attempt to adjust by taste. *I just don't
> > > > > > > > trust
> > > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > ability to repeatedly taste the *same wine at different acidities
> > > > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > and over again and properly taste the level at which it is right.

>
> > > > > > > > I will keep your guide parameters in mind mr doubles and go by
> > > > > > > > taste
> > > > > > > > also.

>
> > > > > > > > Kind regards, Jim

>
> > > > > > I'm not sure how close it is. *It is noticeably too sour. *Adjusting
> > > > > > with sugar may be another call my inexperienced mouth might flop at!
> > > > > > It's a minefield. *I wish I'd gone more conservative on the acid
> > > > > > front
> > > > > > now, but the additions I made weren't far different to many recipes I
> > > > > > have seen.

>
> > > > > > Thanks for the advice again!

>
> > > > > > Jim

>
> > > > Yes, as per Keller reipes for blackberry wines and elderberry wines I
> > > > used a little acid blend. *The batch I made previously without
> > > > blackberries seemed pretty much spot on to me - I guess the
> > > > blackberries were more acidic than Keller's recipe imagined. *I
> > > > titrated and added acid accordingly (to just under the higher end of
> > > > the acid scale for red country wines) noting that the addition was
> > > > just slightly over the amount recipes for similar wines suggested.
> > > > Perhaps the blackberries hadn't released all their acidic goodness by
> > > > that point.

>
> > > > Jim

>
> > > In the future, do acid trials with a 20% solution (20g tartaric brought
> > > to a volume of 100ml), and use .10ml of 20% sol./50ml of wine to add the
> > > equivalent of .05g/100ml to your wine.

>
> > > Have you had your wine with food, or is this to be a sippin' wine?

>
> > > How much of what did you add? Malic is more sour than tartaric, for
> > > example (it drops the pH more than an equivalent amount of tartaric).

>
> > > Have you titrated for total acidity, pH?
> > > --
> > > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

>
> > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...srael_arrestin....
> > > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

>
> > The acid was added to the must, not the finished wine. *As I said, I
> > titrated at the must stage and adjusted to under the maximum for
> > country reds. *The final adjustment was only 6 1/4 tsp of acid blend
> > (in the usual ratio as per Keller) in total for a 5 uk gallon (6 us
> > gallon) batch, minimal addition really.

>
> > I will be doing another titration before deciding whether I should
> > ajust or enjoy as is, it's just *a little sour* nothing I can't live
> > with, but something I won't if needs be *Thanks for all your
> > comments.

>
> > Jim

>
> Try it with food. The oils and greases in food may take the edge off
> your wine.
>
> As I understand it, the wine is already racked and bottled, right?
> The only thing I can think of is, if part of your acid blend was malic,
> you may be able to induce a secondary fermentation in the wine, and
> convert the sharp malic acid to the softer lactic acid. It's easier, if
> the wine is on lees though. Or you might try some chalk (CaCO3) trials,
> to see if that could be a satisfactory answer.
> --
> "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...1/19/headlines


I think the ratio I mixed the acid blend to was 3:2:1
Tartaric:Malic:Citric acid.

No it isn't bottled yet, I just post-oaked the oldest as I discovered
the younger elderberries that I had oaked were far superior to the
older unoaked batch. I have been waiting for a chance to do another
TA titration to see 'technically' what the acid situation is and to
decide if I am going to attempt to deacidify the wine slightly. Once
that is done I will perform a final pre-bottle rack and bottle it.
The wine has already been racked productively 4 times since I first
added the yeast and any further racking will have to be topped up with
water or bought wine as I have no surplus around.

It is better with food definitely, I totally agree that an oily food
partners well with acidity - I had a wine of similar acidity yesterday
and it worked well, though I am trying to craft this wine to be my
staple drinking wine, so I think a drop of a little edge would be good
across the whole batch. I shall leave the second wine from this batch
a little higher acid as it is lighter, suits the liveliness and will
probably be used more often with food than its heavier first press
brothers.

Thanks for all the input both, it is appreciated!

Jim
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Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any Country Wines

(snip)
In article
>,
jim c > wrote:

> > Try it with food. The oils and greases in food may take the edge off
> > your wine.
> >
> > As I understand it, the wine is already racked and bottled, right?
> > The only thing I can think of is, if part of your acid blend was malic,
> > you may be able to induce a secondary fermentation in the wine, and
> > convert the sharp malic acid to the softer lactic acid. It's easier, if
> > the wine is on lees though. Or you might try some chalk (CaCO3) trials,
> > to see if that could be a satisfactory answer.
> > --

(snip)
>
> I think the ratio I mixed the acid blend to was 3:2:1
> Tartaric:Malic:Citric acid.
>
> No it isn't bottled yet, I just post-oaked the oldest as I discovered
> the younger elderberries that I had oaked were far superior to the
> older unoaked batch. I have been waiting for a chance to do another
> TA titration to see 'technically' what the acid situation is and to
> decide if I am going to attempt to deacidify the wine slightly. Once
> that is done I will perform a final pre-bottle rack and bottle it.
> The wine has already been racked productively 4 times since I first
> added the yeast and any further racking will have to be topped up with
> water or bought wine as I have no surplus around.
>
> It is better with food definitely, I totally agree that an oily food
> partners well with acidity - I had a wine of similar acidity yesterday
> and it worked well, though I am trying to craft this wine to be my
> staple drinking wine, so I think a drop of a little edge would be good
> across the whole batch. I shall leave the second wine from this batch
> a little higher acid as it is lighter, suits the liveliness and will
> probably be used more often with food than its heavier first press
> brothers.
>
> Thanks for all the input both, it is appreciated!
>
> Jim

Remember that the sourness of wine (crispness, whatever) is directly
proportional to the pH of the wine. The other components of the wine
will buffer the total acidity (TA), resulting in wines with the same TA
tasting flatter or crisper.

The malic could be reduced to lactic acid by leuconostoc oenos
(enococcus) bacteria but they require a nitrogen source (lees) and I
would worry about the citric getting converted to actetic acid.

Bottom line, if you can drink it, live with it.

Bon appétit,
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...ting_activists
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines


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Posts: 74
Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any CountryWines

On Jan 27, 5:34*pm, Wildbilly > wrote:
> (snip)
> In article
> >,
> *jim c > wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Try it with food. The oils and greases in food may take the edge off
> > > your wine.

>
> > > As I understand it, the wine is already racked and bottled, right?
> > > The only thing I can think of is, if part of your acid blend was malic,
> > > you may be able to induce a secondary fermentation in the wine, and
> > > convert the sharp malic acid to the softer lactic acid. It's easier, if
> > > the wine is on lees though. Or you might try some chalk (CaCO3) trials,
> > > to see if that could be a satisfactory answer.
> > > --

> (snip)
>
> > I think the ratio I mixed the acid blend to was 3:2:1
> > Tartaric:Malic:Citric acid.

>
> > No it isn't bottled yet, I just post-oaked the oldest as I discovered
> > the younger elderberries that I had oaked were far superior to the
> > older unoaked batch. *I have been waiting for a chance to do another
> > TA titration to see 'technically' what the acid situation is and to
> > decide if I am going to attempt to deacidify the wine slightly. *Once
> > that is done I will perform a final pre-bottle rack and bottle it.
> > The wine has already been racked productively 4 times since I first
> > added the yeast and any further racking will have to be topped up with
> > water or bought wine as I have no surplus around.

>
> > It is better with food definitely, I totally agree that an oily food
> > partners well with acidity - I had a wine of similar acidity yesterday
> > and it worked well, though I am trying to craft this wine to be my
> > staple drinking wine, so I think a drop of a little edge would be good
> > across the whole batch. *I shall leave the second wine from this batch
> > a little higher acid as it is lighter, suits the liveliness and will
> > probably be used more often with food than its heavier first press
> > brothers.

>
> > Thanks for all the input both, it is appreciated!

>
> > Jim

>
> Remember that the sourness of wine (crispness, whatever) is directly
> proportional to the pH of the wine. The other components of the wine
> will buffer the total acidity (TA), resulting in wines with the same TA
> tasting flatter or crisper.
>
> The malic could be reduced to lactic acid by leuconostoc oenos *
> (enococcus) bacteria but they require a nitrogen source (lees) and I
> would worry about the citric getting converted to actetic acid.
>
> Bottom line, if you can drink it, live with it.
>
> Bon appétit,
> --
> "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...1/19/headlines


Cheers, but why not measure the pH by meter and mouth and reduce
excess with calcium carbonate?

Jim
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Posts: 46
Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any Country Wines

In article
>,
jim c > wrote:

> On Jan 27, 5:34*pm, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > (snip)
> > In article
> > >,
> > *jim c > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > > Try it with food. The oils and greases in food may take the edge off
> > > > your wine.

> >
> > > > As I understand it, the wine is already racked and bottled, right?
> > > > The only thing I can think of is, if part of your acid blend was malic,
> > > > you may be able to induce a secondary fermentation in the wine, and
> > > > convert the sharp malic acid to the softer lactic acid. It's easier, if
> > > > the wine is on lees though. Or you might try some chalk (CaCO3) trials,
> > > > to see if that could be a satisfactory answer.
> > > > --

> > (snip)
> >
> > > I think the ratio I mixed the acid blend to was 3:2:1
> > > Tartaric:Malic:Citric acid.

> >
> > > No it isn't bottled yet, I just post-oaked the oldest as I discovered
> > > the younger elderberries that I had oaked were far superior to the
> > > older unoaked batch. *I have been waiting for a chance to do another
> > > TA titration to see 'technically' what the acid situation is and to
> > > decide if I am going to attempt to deacidify the wine slightly. *Once
> > > that is done I will perform a final pre-bottle rack and bottle it.
> > > The wine has already been racked productively 4 times since I first
> > > added the yeast and any further racking will have to be topped up with
> > > water or bought wine as I have no surplus around.

> >
> > > It is better with food definitely, I totally agree that an oily food
> > > partners well with acidity - I had a wine of similar acidity yesterday
> > > and it worked well, though I am trying to craft this wine to be my
> > > staple drinking wine, so I think a drop of a little edge would be good
> > > across the whole batch. *I shall leave the second wine from this batch
> > > a little higher acid as it is lighter, suits the liveliness and will
> > > probably be used more often with food than its heavier first press
> > > brothers.

> >
> > > Thanks for all the input both, it is appreciated!

> >
> > > Jim

> >
> > Remember that the sourness of wine (crispness, whatever) is directly
> > proportional to the pH of the wine. The other components of the wine
> > will buffer the total acidity (TA), resulting in wines with the same TA
> > tasting flatter or crisper.
> >
> > The malic could be reduced to lactic acid by leuconostoc oenos *
> > (enococcus) bacteria but they require a nitrogen source (lees) and I
> > would worry about the citric getting converted to actetic acid.
> >
> > Bottom line, if you can drink it, live with it.
> >
> > Bon appétit,
> > --
> > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
> >
> > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...rrestin...http
> > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

>
> Cheers, but why not measure the pH by meter and mouth and reduce
> excess with calcium carbonate?
>
> Jim


You're right, of course. It doesn't matter what the pH is, IF the wine
pleases you. I've never adjusted a wine with calcium carbonate, so I
don't know how satisfying, or not, the results may be.
Try .1g, .2g, .3g of CaCO3 in three different 4 oz. glasses of wine.
When you get close, step up or down by .05g. It shouldn't take more than
6 glasses. It is hard to keep track of more than 6 wines ;O)

If you want to try the secondary fermentation approach, there is no
problem with generating acetic from citric, only in primary fermentation.

Bonne chance.

Halb betrunken ist heraus geworfnet geld.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...ting_activists
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines
  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 74
Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any CountryWines

On Jan 31, 2:34*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> In article
> >,
> *jim c > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 27, 5:34*pm, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > > (snip)
> > > In article
> > > >,
> > > *jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > Try it with food. The oils and greases in food may take the edge off
> > > > > your wine.

>
> > > > > As I understand it, the wine is already racked and bottled, right?
> > > > > The only thing I can think of is, if part of your acid blend was malic,
> > > > > you may be able to induce a secondary fermentation in the wine, and
> > > > > convert the sharp malic acid to the softer lactic acid. It's easier, if
> > > > > the wine is on lees though. Or you might try some chalk (CaCO3) trials,
> > > > > to see if that could be a satisfactory answer.
> > > > > --
> > > (snip)

>
> > > > I think the ratio I mixed the acid blend to was 3:2:1
> > > > Tartaric:Malic:Citric acid.

>
> > > > No it isn't bottled yet, I just post-oaked the oldest as I discovered
> > > > the younger elderberries that I had oaked were far superior to the
> > > > older unoaked batch. *I have been waiting for a chance to do another
> > > > TA titration to see 'technically' what the acid situation is and to
> > > > decide if I am going to attempt to deacidify the wine slightly. *Once
> > > > that is done I will perform a final pre-bottle rack and bottle it.
> > > > The wine has already been racked productively 4 times since I first
> > > > added the yeast and any further racking will have to be topped up with
> > > > water or bought wine as I have no surplus around.

>
> > > > It is better with food definitely, I totally agree that an oily food
> > > > partners well with acidity - I had a wine of similar acidity yesterday
> > > > and it worked well, though I am trying to craft this wine to be my
> > > > staple drinking wine, so I think a drop of a little edge would be good
> > > > across the whole batch. *I shall leave the second wine from this batch
> > > > a little higher acid as it is lighter, suits the liveliness and will
> > > > probably be used more often with food than its heavier first press
> > > > brothers.

>
> > > > Thanks for all the input both, it is appreciated!

>
> > > > Jim

>
> > > Remember that the sourness of wine (crispness, whatever) is directly
> > > proportional to the pH of the wine. The other components of the wine
> > > will buffer the total acidity (TA), resulting in wines with the same TA
> > > tasting flatter or crisper.

>
> > > The malic could be reduced to lactic acid by leuconostoc oenos *
> > > (enococcus) bacteria but they require a nitrogen source (lees) and I
> > > would worry about the citric getting converted to actetic acid.

>
> > > Bottom line, if you can drink it, live with it.

>
> > > Bon appétit,
> > > --
> > > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

>
> > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...srael_arrestin....
> > > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

>
> > Cheers, but why not measure the pH by meter and mouth and reduce
> > excess with calcium carbonate?

>
> > Jim

>
> You're right, of course. It doesn't matter what the pH is, IF the wine
> pleases you. I've never adjusted a wine with calcium carbonate, so I
> don't know how satisfying, or not, the results may be.
> Try .1g, .2g, .3g of CaCO3 in three different 4 oz. glasses of wine. *
> When you get close, step up or down by .05g. It shouldn't take more than
> 6 glasses. It is hard to keep track of more than 6 wines ;O)
>
> If you want to try the secondary fermentation approach, there is no
> problem with generating acetic from citric, only in primary fermentation.
>
> Bonne chance.
>
> Halb betrunken ist heraus geworfnet geld.
> --
> "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...1/19/headlines


Thanks for the reply. Yeah that's the plan. My only fear is
maintaining an objective palette across the tests. I shall look up a
suitable palette cleaner for in between, any recommendations? Cheese,
crackers, plain water, milk?

Jim
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Posts: 83
Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any CountryWines

On Jan 31, 3:39*pm, jim c > wrote:
> On Jan 31, 2:34*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > >,
> > *jim c > wrote:

>
> > > On Jan 27, 5:34*pm, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > > > (snip)
> > > > In article
> > > > >,
> > > > *jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > > Try it with food. The oils and greases in food may take the edge off
> > > > > > your wine.

>
> > > > > > As I understand it, the wine is already racked and bottled, right?
> > > > > > The only thing I can think of is, if part of your acid blend was malic,
> > > > > > you may be able to induce a secondary fermentation in the wine, and
> > > > > > convert the sharp malic acid to the softer lactic acid. It's easier, if
> > > > > > the wine is on lees though. Or you might try some chalk (CaCO3) trials,
> > > > > > to see if that could be a satisfactory answer.
> > > > > > --
> > > > (snip)

>
> > > > > I think the ratio I mixed the acid blend to was 3:2:1
> > > > > Tartaric:Malic:Citric acid.

>
> > > > > No it isn't bottled yet, I just post-oaked the oldest as I discovered
> > > > > the younger elderberries that I had oaked were far superior to the
> > > > > older unoaked batch. *I have been waiting for a chance to do another
> > > > > TA titration to see 'technically' what the acid situation is and to
> > > > > decide if I am going to attempt to deacidify the wine slightly. *Once
> > > > > that is done I will perform a final pre-bottle rack and bottle it..
> > > > > The wine has already been racked productively 4 times since I first
> > > > > added the yeast and any further racking will have to be topped up with
> > > > > water or bought wine as I have no surplus around.

>
> > > > > It is better with food definitely, I totally agree that an oily food
> > > > > partners well with acidity - I had a wine of similar acidity yesterday
> > > > > and it worked well, though I am trying to craft this wine to be my
> > > > > staple drinking wine, so I think a drop of a little edge would be good
> > > > > across the whole batch. *I shall leave the second wine from this batch
> > > > > a little higher acid as it is lighter, suits the liveliness and will
> > > > > probably be used more often with food than its heavier first press
> > > > > brothers.

>
> > > > > Thanks for all the input both, it is appreciated!

>
> > > > > Jim

>
> > > > Remember that the sourness of wine (crispness, whatever) is directly
> > > > proportional to the pH of the wine. The other components of the wine
> > > > will buffer the total acidity (TA), resulting in wines with the same TA
> > > > tasting flatter or crisper.

>
> > > > The malic could be reduced to lactic acid by leuconostoc oenos *
> > > > (enococcus) bacteria but they require a nitrogen source (lees) and I
> > > > would worry about the citric getting converted to actetic acid.

>
> > > > Bottom line, if you can drink it, live with it.

>
> > > > Bon appétit,
> > > > --
> > > > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > > > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

>
> > > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...srael_arrestin...
> > > > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

>
> > > Cheers, but why not measure the pH by meter and mouth and reduce
> > > excess with calcium carbonate?

>
> > > Jim

>
> > You're right, of course. It doesn't matter what the pH is, IF the wine
> > pleases you. I've never adjusted a wine with calcium carbonate, so I
> > don't know how satisfying, or not, the results may be.
> > Try .1g, .2g, .3g of CaCO3 in three different 4 oz. glasses of wine. *
> > When you get close, step up or down by .05g. It shouldn't take more than
> > 6 glasses. It is hard to keep track of more than 6 wines ;O)

>
> > If you want to try the secondary fermentation approach, there is no
> > problem with generating acetic from citric, only in primary fermentation.

  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
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Posts: 46
Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any Country Wines

In article
>,
jim c > wrote:

> On Jan 31, 2:34*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> > *jim c > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jan 27, 5:34*pm, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > > > (snip)
> > > > In article
> > > > >,
> > > > *jim c > wrote:

> >
> > > > > > Try it with food. The oils and greases in food may take the edge
> > > > > > off
> > > > > > your wine.

> >
> > > > > > As I understand it, the wine is already racked and bottled, right?
> > > > > > The only thing I can think of is, if part of your acid blend was
> > > > > > malic,
> > > > > > you may be able to induce a secondary fermentation in the wine, and
> > > > > > convert the sharp malic acid to the softer lactic acid. It's
> > > > > > easier, if
> > > > > > the wine is on lees though. Or you might try some chalk (CaCO3)
> > > > > > trials,
> > > > > > to see if that could be a satisfactory answer.
> > > > > > --
> > > > (snip)

> >
> > > > > I think the ratio I mixed the acid blend to was 3:2:1
> > > > > Tartaric:Malic:Citric acid.

> >
> > > > > No it isn't bottled yet, I just post-oaked the oldest as I discovered
> > > > > the younger elderberries that I had oaked were far superior to the
> > > > > older unoaked batch. *I have been waiting for a chance to do another
> > > > > TA titration to see 'technically' what the acid situation is and to
> > > > > decide if I am going to attempt to deacidify the wine slightly. *Once
> > > > > that is done I will perform a final pre-bottle rack and bottle it.
> > > > > The wine has already been racked productively 4 times since I first
> > > > > added the yeast and any further racking will have to be topped up
> > > > > with
> > > > > water or bought wine as I have no surplus around.

> >
> > > > > It is better with food definitely, I totally agree that an oily food
> > > > > partners well with acidity - I had a wine of similar acidity
> > > > > yesterday
> > > > > and it worked well, though I am trying to craft this wine to be my
> > > > > staple drinking wine, so I think a drop of a little edge would be
> > > > > good
> > > > > across the whole batch. *I shall leave the second wine from this
> > > > > batch
> > > > > a little higher acid as it is lighter, suits the liveliness and will
> > > > > probably be used more often with food than its heavier first press
> > > > > brothers.

> >
> > > > > Thanks for all the input both, it is appreciated!

> >
> > > > > Jim

> >
> > > > Remember that the sourness of wine (crispness, whatever) is directly
> > > > proportional to the pH of the wine. The other components of the wine
> > > > will buffer the total acidity (TA), resulting in wines with the same TA
> > > > tasting flatter or crisper.

> >
> > > > The malic could be reduced to lactic acid by leuconostoc oenos *
> > > > (enococcus) bacteria but they require a nitrogen source (lees) and I
> > > > would worry about the citric getting converted to actetic acid.

> >
> > > > Bottom line, if you can drink it, live with it.

> >
> > > > Bon appétit,
> > > > --
> > > > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > > > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

> >
> > > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...srael_arrestin...
> > > > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

> >
> > > Cheers, but why not measure the pH by meter and mouth and reduce
> > > excess with calcium carbonate?

> >
> > > Jim

> >
> > You're right, of course. It doesn't matter what the pH is, IF the wine
> > pleases you. I've never adjusted a wine with calcium carbonate, so I
> > don't know how satisfying, or not, the results may be.
> > Try .1g, .2g, .3g of CaCO3 in three different 4 oz. glasses of wine. *
> > When you get close, step up or down by .05g. It shouldn't take more than
> > 6 glasses. It is hard to keep track of more than 6 wines ;O)
> >
> > If you want to try the secondary fermentation approach, there is no
> > problem with generating acetic from citric, only in primary fermentation.
> >
> > Bonne chance.
> >
> > Halb betrunken ist heraus geworfnet geld.
> > --
> > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
> >
> > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...rrestin...http
> > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

>
> Thanks for the reply. Yeah that's the plan. My only fear is
> maintaining an objective palette across the tests. I shall look up a
> suitable palette cleaner for in between, any recommendations? Cheese,
> crackers, plain water, milk?
>
> Jim


The old adage is to take apples to buy wine and, take cheese to sell
wine. Apples contrast and, cheese compliments. Taste with apples.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...ting_activists
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines


  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
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external usenet poster
 
Posts: 74
Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any CountryWines

On Feb 1, 1:19*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> In article
> >,
> *jim c > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 31, 2:34*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > > In article
> > > >,
> > > *jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > On Jan 27, 5:34*pm, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > > > > (snip)
> > > > > In article
> > > > > >,
> > > > > *jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > > > Try it with food. The oils and greases in food may take the edge
> > > > > > > off
> > > > > > > your wine.

>
> > > > > > > As I understand it, the wine is already racked and bottled, right?
> > > > > > > The only thing I can think of is, if part of your acid blend was
> > > > > > > malic,
> > > > > > > you may be able to induce a secondary fermentation in the wine, and
> > > > > > > convert the sharp malic acid to the softer lactic acid. It's
> > > > > > > easier, if
> > > > > > > the wine is on lees though. Or you might try some chalk (CaCO3)
> > > > > > > trials,
> > > > > > > to see if that could be a satisfactory answer.
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > (snip)

>
> > > > > > I think the ratio I mixed the acid blend to was 3:2:1
> > > > > > Tartaric:Malic:Citric acid.

>
> > > > > > No it isn't bottled yet, I just post-oaked the oldest as I discovered
> > > > > > the younger elderberries that I had oaked were far superior to the
> > > > > > older unoaked batch. *I have been waiting for a chance to do another
> > > > > > TA titration to see 'technically' what the acid situation is and to
> > > > > > decide if I am going to attempt to deacidify the wine slightly. *Once
> > > > > > that is done I will perform a final pre-bottle rack and bottle it.
> > > > > > The wine has already been racked productively 4 times since I first
> > > > > > added the yeast and any further racking will have to be topped up
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > water or bought wine as I have no surplus around.

>
> > > > > > It is better with food definitely, I totally agree that an oily food
> > > > > > partners well with acidity - I had a wine of similar acidity
> > > > > > yesterday
> > > > > > and it worked well, though I am trying to craft this wine to be my
> > > > > > staple drinking wine, so I think a drop of a little edge would be
> > > > > > good
> > > > > > across the whole batch. *I shall leave the second wine from this
> > > > > > batch
> > > > > > a little higher acid as it is lighter, suits the liveliness and will
> > > > > > probably be used more often with food than its heavier first press
> > > > > > brothers.

>
> > > > > > Thanks for all the input both, it is appreciated!

>
> > > > > > Jim

>
> > > > > Remember that the sourness of wine (crispness, whatever) is directly
> > > > > proportional to the pH of the wine. The other components of the wine
> > > > > will buffer the total acidity (TA), resulting in wines with the same TA
> > > > > tasting flatter or crisper.

>
> > > > > The malic could be reduced to lactic acid by leuconostoc oenos *
> > > > > (enococcus) bacteria but they require a nitrogen source (lees) and I
> > > > > would worry about the citric getting converted to actetic acid.

>
> > > > > Bottom line, if you can drink it, live with it.

>
> > > > > Bon appétit,
> > > > > --
> > > > > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > > > > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

>
> > > > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...srael_arrestin...
> > > > > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

>
> > > > Cheers, but why not measure the pH by meter and mouth and reduce
> > > > excess with calcium carbonate?

>
> > > > Jim

>
> > > You're right, of course. It doesn't matter what the pH is, IF the wine
> > > pleases you. I've never adjusted a wine with calcium carbonate, so I
> > > don't know how satisfying, or not, the results may be.
> > > Try .1g, .2g, .3g of CaCO3 in three different 4 oz. glasses of wine. *
> > > When you get close, step up or down by .05g. It shouldn't take more than
> > > 6 glasses. It is hard to keep track of more than 6 wines ;O)

>
> > > If you want to try the secondary fermentation approach, there is no
> > > problem with generating acetic from citric, only in primary fermentation.

>
> > > Bonne chance.

>
> > > Halb betrunken ist heraus geworfnet geld.
> > > --
> > > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

>
> > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...srael_arrestin....
> > > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

>
> > Thanks for the reply. *Yeah that's the plan. *My only fear is
> > maintaining an objective palette across the tests. *I shall look up a
> > suitable palette cleaner for in between, any recommendations? *Cheese,
> > crackers, plain water, milk?

>
> > Jim

>
> The old adage is to take apples to buy wine and, take cheese to sell
> wine. Apples contrast and, cheese compliments. Taste with apples.
> --
> "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...1/19/headlines


Excellent advice thanks both! I have a multitude of apples around too
so that makes things easy

Jim
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On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:
> A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> fruit wine with sugar added.
>
> On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:
>
> > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
> > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
> > for each country wine or classic grape wine?

>
> > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

>
> > Any help gratefully received as ever...


By the way, I presume that pH of around 3.3 is workable for a red
fruit wine with no sugar added too?

Cheers, Jim
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In article
>,
jim c > wrote:

> On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:
> > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > fruit wine with sugar added.
> >
> > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:
> >
> > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
> > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
> > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?

> >
> > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

> >
> > > Any help gratefully received as ever...

>
> By the way, I presume that pH of around 3.3 is workable for a red
> fruit wine with no sugar added too?
>
> Cheers, Jim


3.4 to 3.7 is my comfort zone for a dry wine table wines but taste your
way to your results. For sippin' wines, you may want the pH a little
higher (maybe to 4.0). After 4.0, wines lack fruit, and taste flat (to
my taste). Wines are like steaks. Nobody can tell you how you like it.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...ting_activists
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines
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On Feb 2, 1:48*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> In article
> >,
> *jim c > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:
> > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > > fruit wine with sugar added.

>
> > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource which
> > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid levels
> > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?

>
> > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

>
> > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...

>
> > By the way, I presume that *pH of around 3.3 is workable for a red
> > fruit wine with no sugar added too?

>
> > Cheers, Jim

>
> 3.4 to 3.7 is my comfort zone for a dry wine table wines but taste your
> way to your results. For sippin' wines, you may want the pH a little
> higher (maybe to 4.0). After 4.0, wines lack fruit, and taste flat (to
> my taste). Wines are like steaks. Nobody can tell you how you like it.
> --
> "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...1/19/headlines


No I agree - if they did I'd have to roll my eyes. I like my wines
dry, fairly tannic and hearty usually. Having guide figures is useful
before taking the plunge. I am really hoping that after tasting again
and pH testing I decide I can live with the levels - messing it around
might be more of a nuisance and let down than having it slightly sour,
but I will step into the dark shortly and see what I can see. At
least the guide figures I have now can acts as a candle and are
corroborated elsewhere online.

Jim
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Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any Country Wines

In article
>,
jim c > wrote:

> On Feb 2, 1:48*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > In article
> > >,
> > *jim c > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:
> > > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > > > fruit wine with sugar added.

> >
> > > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:

> >
> > > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource
> > > > > which
> > > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid
> > > > > levels
> > > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?

> >
> > > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

> >
> > > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...

> >
> > > By the way, I presume that *pH of around 3.3 is workable for a red
> > > fruit wine with no sugar added too?

> >
> > > Cheers, Jim

> >
> > 3.4 to 3.7 is my comfort zone for a dry wine table wines but taste your
> > way to your results. For sippin' wines, you may want the pH a little
> > higher (maybe to 4.0). After 4.0, wines lack fruit, and taste flat (to
> > my taste). Wines are like steaks. Nobody can tell you how you like it.
> > --
> > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
> >
> > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...rrestin...http
> > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

>
> No I agree - if they did I'd have to roll my eyes. I like my wines
> dry, fairly tannic and hearty usually. Having guide figures is useful
> before taking the plunge. I am really hoping that after tasting again
> and pH testing I decide I can live with the levels - messing it around
> might be more of a nuisance and let down than having it slightly sour,
> but I will step into the dark shortly and see what I can see. At
> least the guide figures I have now can acts as a candle and are
> corroborated elsewhere online.
>
> Jim


Sorry to be repetitious, but remember, sourness is a function of pH, and
not directly correlated to total acidity.
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...ting_activists
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines


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On Feb 2, 5:26*pm, Wildbilly > wrote:
> In article
> >,
> *jim c > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 2, 1:48*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > > In article
> > > >,
> > > *jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:
> > > > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > > > > fruit wine with sugar added.

>
> > > > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > > > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > > > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource
> > > > > > which
> > > > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid
> > > > > > levels
> > > > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?

>
> > > > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > > > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > > > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > > > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

>
> > > > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...

>
> > > > By the way, I presume that *pH of around 3.3 is workable for a red
> > > > fruit wine with no sugar added too?

>
> > > > Cheers, Jim

>
> > > 3.4 to 3.7 is my comfort zone for a dry wine table wines but taste your
> > > way to your results. For sippin' wines, you may want the pH a little
> > > higher (maybe to 4.0). After 4.0, wines lack fruit, and taste flat (to
> > > my taste). Wines are like steaks. Nobody can tell you how you like it..
> > > --
> > > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

>
> > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...srael_arrestin....
> > > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

>
> > No I agree - if they did I'd have to roll my eyes. *I like my wines
> > dry, fairly tannic and hearty usually. *Having guide figures is useful
> > before taking the plunge. *I am really hoping that after tasting again
> > and pH testing I decide I can live with the levels - messing it around
> > might be more of a nuisance and let down than having it slightly sour,
> > but I will step into the dark shortly and see what I can see. *At
> > least the guide figures I have now can acts as a candle and are
> > corroborated elsewhere online.

>
> > Jim

>
> Sorry to be repetitious, but remember, sourness is a function of pH, and
> not directly correlated to total acidity.
> --
> "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...1/19/headlines


Sure, cheers.
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Wildbilly wrote:

>
> How much of what did you add? Malic is more sour than tartaric, for
> example (it drops the pH more than an equivalent amount of tartaric).
>


malic does NOT reduce pH more than tartaric. malic will buffer the pH
higher.

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In article >,
BobF > wrote:

> Wildbilly wrote:
>
> >
> > How much of what did you add? Malic is more sour than tartaric, for
> > example (it drops the pH more than an equivalent amount of tartaric).
> >

>
> malic does NOT reduce pH more than tartaric. malic will buffer the pH
> higher.


Added to water, malic will result in a lower pH than tartaric. Any
buffered solution will resist a change in pH. Malic only results in a
higher pH when it is converted to lactic acid in a secondary
fermentation (malolactic).
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...ting_activists
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines
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On Feb 26, 9:46*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> In article >,
>
> *BobF > wrote:
> > Wildbilly wrote:

>
> > > How much of what did you add? Malic is more sour than tartaric, for
> > > example (it drops the pH more than an equivalent amount of tartaric).

>
> > malic does NOT reduce pH more than tartaric. *malic will buffer the pH
> > higher.

>
> Added to water, malic will result in a lower pH than tartaric. Any
> buffered solution will resist a change in pH. Malic only results in a
> higher pH when it is converted to lactic acid in a secondary
> fermentation (malolactic).
> --
> "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...1/19/headlines



It is probably time for a review of wine acidity basics with Jack
Keller
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp

Converting malic to lactic acid reduces sourness, but tartaric has the
lowest pH. Any serious discussion about winemaking with the Norton
grape will involve dealing with high pH at fairly high TA due to the
high ratio of malic acid.

Jack's article also gives a general answer to jim c's original
question.

Stephen
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On Feb 2, 5:26*pm, Wildbilly > wrote:
> In article
> >,
> *jim c > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 2, 1:48*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > > In article
> > > >,
> > > *jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:
> > > > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > > > > fruit wine with sugar added.

>
> > > > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > > > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > > > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource
> > > > > > which
> > > > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid
> > > > > > levels
> > > > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?

>
> > > > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > > > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > > > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > > > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

>
> > > > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...

>
> > > > By the way, I presume that *pH of around 3.3 is workable for a red
> > > > fruit wine with no sugar added too?

>
> > > > Cheers, Jim

>
> > > 3.4 to 3.7 is my comfort zone for a dry wine table wines but taste your
> > > way to your results. For sippin' wines, you may want the pH a little
> > > higher (maybe to 4.0). After 4.0, wines lack fruit, and taste flat (to
> > > my taste). Wines are like steaks. Nobody can tell you how you like it..
> > > --
> > > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

>
> > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...srael_arrestin....
> > > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

>
> > No I agree - if they did I'd have to roll my eyes. *I like my wines
> > dry, fairly tannic and hearty usually. *Having guide figures is useful
> > before taking the plunge. *I am really hoping that after tasting again
> > and pH testing I decide I can live with the levels - messing it around
> > might be more of a nuisance and let down than having it slightly sour,
> > but I will step into the dark shortly and see what I can see. *At
> > least the guide figures I have now can acts as a candle and are
> > corroborated elsewhere online.

>
> > Jim

>
> Sorry to be repetitious, but remember, sourness is a function of pH, and
> not directly correlated to total acidity.
> --
> "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...1/19/headlines


In case anyone is interested I did pH measurements and found the wine
to be at the low end of the range pH wise ~3.3 I did trials with .1 .
2 .3g per 125ml glass as suggested above. After mixing thoroughly and
leaving 30 minutes I did taste tests and found the wine flattened by
all but the .1g test. So I added just under that proportion to the
wine.

On bottling it still tastes very young, but not overpoweringly sour.
I think in a couple of years it will be pretty good.

Jim


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Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any CountryWines

On Feb 27, 11:13*am, jim c > wrote:
> On Feb 2, 5:26*pm, Wildbilly > wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article
> > >,
> > *jim c > wrote:

>
> > > On Feb 2, 1:48*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > >,
> > > > *jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > On Jan 20, 1:59*am, wrote:
> > > > > > A guide? I would say try to get the PH between 3.2 and *3.4 for a
> > > > > > fruit wine with sugar added.

>
> > > > > > On Jan 19, 10:05*am, jim c > wrote:

>
> > > > > > > I know that you can't ever definitively state the characteristics of
> > > > > > > wines as there are so many factors and subjective noses and palettes
> > > > > > > on the subject. *Saying all this, does anyone know of a resource
> > > > > > > which
> > > > > > > attempts to list norms, usual values or recommendations of acid
> > > > > > > levels
> > > > > > > for each country wine or classic grape wine?

>
> > > > > > > I'm just interested in general. *My specific concern is (as per my
> > > > > > > reply to Jim's post above) for my Elderberry / Blackberry wines which
> > > > > > > are all too acidic, a guide value would be very helpful as I attempt
> > > > > > > to remedy the problem over 8 x 5 gallon batches...

>
> > > > > > > Any help gratefully received as ever...

>
> > > > > By the way, I presume that *pH of around 3.3 is workable for a red
> > > > > fruit wine with no sugar added too?

>
> > > > > Cheers, Jim

>
> > > > 3.4 to 3.7 is my comfort zone for a dry wine table wines but taste your
> > > > way to your results. For sippin' wines, you may want the pH a little
> > > > higher (maybe to 4.0). After 4.0, wines lack fruit, and taste flat (to
> > > > my taste). Wines are like steaks. Nobody can tell you how you like it.
> > > > --
> > > > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > > > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

>
> > > >http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...srael_arrestin...
> > > > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

>
> > > No I agree - if they did I'd have to roll my eyes. *I like my wines
> > > dry, fairly tannic and hearty usually. *Having guide figures is useful
> > > before taking the plunge. *I am really hoping that after tasting again
> > > and pH testing I decide I can live with the levels - messing it around
> > > might be more of a nuisance and let down than having it slightly sour,
> > > but I will step into the dark shortly and see what I can see. *At
> > > least the guide figures I have now can acts as a candle and are
> > > corroborated elsewhere online.

>
> > > Jim

>
> > Sorry to be repetitious, but remember, sourness is a function of pH, and
> > not directly correlated to total acidity.
> > --
> > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

>
> >http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...srael_arrestin...

>
> In case anyone is interested I did pH measurements and found the wine
> to be at the low end of the range pH wise ~3.3 *I did trials with .1 .
> 2 .3g per 125ml glass as suggested above. *After mixing thoroughly and
> leaving 30 minutes I did taste tests and found the wine flattened by
> all but the .1g *test. *So I added *just under that proportion to the
> wine.
>
> On bottling it still tastes very young, but not overpoweringly sour.
> I think in a couple of years it will be pretty good.
>
> Jim

By the way stephen, that is where I got my data in the first place. I
was looking to see if there were any comments specific to Elderberry.
Most of the discussion was really built around fear of adjusting by
taste, but I have done my best now, so I won't worry now, just wait a
few months or a couple of years for the wine to come good

Thanks everyone for their comments!

Jim
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Posts: 46
Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any Country Wines

In article
>,
shbailey > wrote:

> On Feb 26, 9:46*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > In article >,
> >
> > *BobF > wrote:
> > > Wildbilly wrote:

> >
> > > > How much of what did you add? Malic is more sour than tartaric, for
> > > > example (it drops the pH more than an equivalent amount of tartaric).

> >
> > > malic does NOT reduce pH more than tartaric. *malic will buffer the pH
> > > higher.

> >
> > Added to water, malic will result in a lower pH than tartaric. Any
> > buffered solution will resist a change in pH. Malic only results in a
> > higher pH when it is converted to lactic acid in a secondary
> > fermentation (malolactic).
> > --
> > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
> >
> > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...rrestin...http
> > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

>
>
> It is probably time for a review of wine acidity basics with Jack
> Keller
> http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp
>
> Converting malic to lactic acid reduces sourness, but tartaric has the
> lowest pH. Any serious discussion about winemaking with the Norton
> grape will involve dealing with high pH at fairly high TA due to the
> high ratio of malic acid.
>
> Jack's article also gives a general answer to jim c's original
> question.
>
> Stephen


Brain FART!

Agreed, I was in error. I was thinking of an article that I read not
long ago, but numbers don't lie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_dissociation_constant
Acid dissociation constant
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Acetic acid, a weak acid, donates a proton (hydrogen ion, highlighted in
green) to water in an equilibrium reaction to give the acetate ion and
the hydronium ion. Red: oxygen, black: carbon, white: hydrogen.
An acid dissociation constant, Ka, (also known as acidity constant, or
acid-ionization constant) is a quantitative measure of the strength of
an acid in solution. It is the equilibrium constant for a chemical
reaction known as dissociation in the context of acid-base reactions.
Where HA is a generic acid that dissociates by splitting into A-, known
as the conjugate base of the acid, and the hydrogen ion or proton, H+,
which, in the case of aqueous solutions, exists as a solvated hydronium
ion. In the example shown in the figure, HA represents acetic acid, and
A? the acetate ion. The chemical species HA, A- and H+ are said to be in
equilibrium when their concentrations do not change with the passing of
time. The dissociation constant (Ka) is usually written as a quotient of
the equilibrium concentrations (in mol/L), denoted by [HA], [A-] and
[H+]:
Ka = [H+] [A-]/ [HA]

Due to the many orders of magnitude spanned by Ka values, a logarithmic
measure of the acid dissociation constant is more commonly used in
practice. pKa, which is equal to -log10*Ka, may also be referred to as
an acid dissociation constant:

The larger the value of pKa, the smaller the extent of dissociation. A
weak acid has a pKa value in the approximate range -2 to 12 in water.
Acids with a pKa value of less than about -2 are said to be strong
acids; a strong acid is almost completely dissociated in aqueous
solution, to the extent that the concentration of the undissociated acid
becomes undetectable. pKa values for strong acids can, however, be
estimated by theoretical means or by extrapolating from measurements in
non-aqueous solvents in which the dissociation constant is smaller, such
as acetonitrile and dimethylsulfoxide.

Malic pKa1 = 3.4, pKa2 = 5.13

Tartaric pKa1 = 3.2, pKa2 = 4.8
--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...ting_activists
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines
  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
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Posts: 46
Default 'Standard' Acidity (etc) For Elderberry Blackberry / Any Country Wines

In article
>,
shbailey > wrote:

> On Feb 26, 9:46*am, Wildbilly > wrote:
> > In article >,
> >
> > *BobF > wrote:
> > > Wildbilly wrote:

> >
> > > > How much of what did you add? Malic is more sour than tartaric, for
> > > > example (it drops the pH more than an equivalent amount of tartaric).

> >
> > > malic does NOT reduce pH more than tartaric. *malic will buffer the pH
> > > higher.

> >
> > Added to water, malic will result in a lower pH than tartaric. Any
> > buffered solution will resist a change in pH. Malic only results in a
> > higher pH when it is converted to lactic acid in a secondary
> > fermentation (malolactic).
> > --
> > "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
> > merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
> >
> > http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...rrestin...http
> > ://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines

>
>
> It is probably time for a review of wine acidity basics with Jack
> Keller
> http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/acid.asp
>
> Converting malic to lactic acid reduces sourness, but tartaric has the
> lowest pH. Any serious discussion about winemaking with the Norton
> grape will involve dealing with high pH at fairly high TA due to the
> high ratio of malic acid.

The various acids in wine can't be identified by titration, therefore a
standard is chosen. In France, total acidity is calculated as sulfuric.
In California it is calculated as tartaric. Can you explain what you
mean by high pH with high acid?
citation please
>
> Jack's article also gives a general answer to jim c's original
> question.
>
> Stephen

--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100119/...ting_activists
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/19/headlines
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