Prep for planting new wine grapes
 

I plan to start about 80 new vines next spring. In some books I've studied,
(such as Cox's Vines to Wines) it is suggested to have a backhoe dig and
refill a 3' x 3' ditch in the fall, prior to spring planting. Other books
have suggested you should do no more than roto-till the ground in the fall,
and that wholesale sub-soiling is unnecessary.

Does anyone have thoughts on the issue? How do you prep your own new
plantings?

Thanks,
Paul

Paul,

Obviously the trench would be great BUT I couldn't afford the backhoe
so here is what I did. I dig a hole about 1-1/2 ft across and about
the lenth of a spade deep. THen I use a post hole digger to dig a
"column" down past the "hardpan". Now depending on your soil you may
be able to forego the posthole digger. What I would do is dig a hole
with the post hole digger an see what the soil is like down to at
least 3 feet. If the digging is easy ( make a couple holes ) then just
dig the planting holes and plant them. Otherwise, use the posthole
digger. BTW, when you plant , plant the vines at the same depth as
they were in the nursery NO DEEPER. It's better to keep them high than
low. I form a hill at the bottom of the hole so the roots spread over
the hill. Obviously I refill the hole and the post hole column to form
this hill before I plant. DO NOT add any compost, just cover the roots
with the dirt you took out. I also put in about 1/2 the dirt over the
roots and fill the hole with water. Then I add the rest of the dirt
and add more water. THe first year I would mulch with something. THe
young vines need alot of water ( 1 in per week) contrary to what you
sometimes read. The water also makes it easier for the vines to get
the nutrients out of the soil.You shouldn't need any fertilizer the
first year if you water them but if you want "sprinkle" a little
19-19-19 around them, that should be fine. Then just watch them grow.
What kind of vines are you getting? If your soil is very acidic you
might want to stick with hybrids. Where do you live? I've learned the
hard ( best) way that you need to match the vines to the climate for
the minimum amount of heartbreak.

Bob

"PFS" > wrote in message k.net>...
> I plan to start about 80 new vines next spring. In some books I've studied,
> (such as Cox's Vines to Wines) it is suggested to have a backhoe dig and
> refill a 3' x 3' ditch in the fall, prior to spring planting. Other books
> have suggested you should do no more than roto-till the ground in the fall,
> and that wholesale sub-soiling is unnecessary.
>
> Does anyone have thoughts on the issue? How do you prep your own new
> plantings?
>
> Thanks,
> Paul

Paul,

Obviously the trench would be great BUT I couldn't afford the backhoe
so here is what I did. I dig a hole about 1-1/2 ft across and about
the lenth of a spade deep. THen I use a post hole digger to dig a
"column" down past the "hardpan". Now depending on your soil you may
be able to forego the posthole digger. What I would do is dig a hole
with the post hole digger an see what the soil is like down to at
least 3 feet. If the digging is easy ( make a couple holes ) then just
dig the planting holes and plant them. Otherwise, use the posthole
digger. BTW, when you plant , plant the vines at the same depth as
they were in the nursery NO DEEPER. It's better to keep them high than
low. I form a hill at the bottom of the hole so the roots spread over
the hill. Obviously I refill the hole and the post hole column to form
this hill before I plant. DO NOT add any compost, just cover the roots
with the dirt you took out. I also put in about 1/2 the dirt over the
roots and fill the hole with water. Then I add the rest of the dirt
and add more water. THe first year I would mulch with something. THe
young vines need alot of water ( 1 in per week) contrary to what you
sometimes read. The water also makes it easier for the vines to get
the nutrients out of the soil.You shouldn't need any fertilizer the
first year if you water them but if you want "sprinkle" a little
19-19-19 around them, that should be fine. Then just watch them grow.
What kind of vines are you getting? If your soil is very acidic you
might want to stick with hybrids. Where do you live? I've learned the
hard ( best) way that you need to match the vines to the climate for
the minimum amount of heartbreak.

Bob

"PFS" > wrote in message k.net>...
> I plan to start about 80 new vines next spring. In some books I've studied,
> (such as Cox's Vines to Wines) it is suggested to have a backhoe dig and
> refill a 3' x 3' ditch in the fall, prior to spring planting. Other books
> have suggested you should do no more than roto-till the ground in the fall,
> and that wholesale sub-soiling is unnecessary.
>
> Does anyone have thoughts on the issue? How do you prep your own new
> plantings?
>
> Thanks,
> Paul

Bob - thanks for the information. It helps.

On your question of what I'm planting.... My farm is in central PA, atop a
small mountain (big hill) overlooking the Susquehanna River. The farm
benefits from some temperature moderation from the river. I haven't
selected the specific varieties, but hope to do about 8 different varieties
of 10 vines each. Six will probably be FrenchAmerican, with a bias toward
those suitable for red wine. I'd like to try a couple vinifera varieties
(cab, merlot) as I think the proximity to the river will give me some help
in creating a good environment for the vin's.

Thanks,
Paul

Bob - thanks for the information. It helps.

On your question of what I'm planting.... My farm is in central PA, atop a
small mountain (big hill) overlooking the Susquehanna River. The farm
benefits from some temperature moderation from the river. I haven't
selected the specific varieties, but hope to do about 8 different varieties
of 10 vines each. Six will probably be FrenchAmerican, with a bias toward
those suitable for red wine. I'd like to try a couple vinifera varieties
(cab, merlot) as I think the proximity to the river will give me some help
in creating a good environment for the vin's.

Thanks,
Paul

PFS wrote:

> Bob - thanks for the information. It helps.
>
> On your question of what I'm planting.... My farm is in central PA, atop
> a
> small mountain (big hill) overlooking the Susquehanna River. The farm
> benefits from some temperature moderation from the river. I haven't
> selected the specific varieties, but hope to do about 8 different
> varieties
> of 10 vines each. Six will probably be FrenchAmerican, with a bias toward
> those suitable for red wine. I'd like to try a couple vinifera varieties
> (cab, merlot) as I think the proximity to the river will give me some help
> in creating a good environment for the vin's.
>
> Thanks,
> Paul

You may wish to reconsider planting 8 different varieties.

Keep in mind that each variety will have different periods of bud break,
flowering, fruit set, maturity and tolerances to different fungicides.
With these differences comes differences in the spray schedule and possible
type of fungicide than can be used. For example, some varieties may be
sensitive to sulphur and some varieties may be sensitive to copper. You
may be creating a lot of work for yourself. I think the people at Penn
State could help narrow down the list.

I would suggest that you first decide which wines you prefer by visiting
local wineries in your area and then see if your particular site is
suitable for that variety.

Experimentation is fine but a lot of the experimentation has already been
done by state agriculture extensions. I am not trying to rain on your
parade but instead speak from experience and trying to pass along my
lessons learned.

I planted my backyard vineyard not really knowing what information was
available and not taking advantage of their services immediately. It has
been a learning experience and I have learned a lot - the hard way - but I
am closing in on 60 years of age and I don't have that long to learn things
the hard way. I am now considering converting some of my vines by
grafting.

Paul - thanks for the advice. While I like the idea of trying many
different varieties, you make a good argument regarding the varying
schedules for each variety. First thing Monday morning, I'm calling my
extension agent to get some of their thoughts.

Thanks again,
Paul

Paul - thanks for the advice. While I like the idea of trying many
different varieties, you make a good argument regarding the varying
schedules for each variety. First thing Monday morning, I'm calling my
extension agent to get some of their thoughts.

Thanks again,
Paul

In addition to what Paul said which is right on there are just a few
more things I can add from my experiences. 1) Only you know your area
so hopefully you have been a gardener and know around what time the
FIRST and LAST frosts are. If you don't ask your neighbors that
garden. They should know. There are certain varieties that need longer
growing seasons esp. vinifera and you want to make sure the vines can
ripen the fruit to get the best wine possible. The other BIG factor is
winter temps. I've learned anyone can grow vines in the summer it's
the WINTER that basically cuts you down to size. If you want to go
through the work of "burying" the vines then forget what I just said
but from what you have already said I'm not sure you want to go
through that. Another thing. If you do grow some vinifera and you
don't live in a wine growing area you might think about growing
vinifera on it's own roots especially if you have a sandy-ish soil.
I'm doing it and it certainly is alot easier training suckers than
replacing vines. BTW, vinifera requires an extensive spray program and
stay away from the vines that are suceptible to bunch rot.

Bob


"Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message >...
> PFS wrote:
>
> > Bob - thanks for the information. It helps.
> >
> > On your question of what I'm planting.... My farm is in central PA, atop
> > a
> > small mountain (big hill) overlooking the Susquehanna River. The farm
> > benefits from some temperature moderation from the river. I haven't
> > selected the specific varieties, but hope to do about 8 different
> > varieties
> > of 10 vines each. Six will probably be FrenchAmerican, with a bias toward
> > those suitable for red wine. I'd like to try a couple vinifera varieties
> > (cab, merlot) as I think the proximity to the river will give me some help
> > in creating a good environment for the vin's.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Paul
>
> You may wish to reconsider planting 8 different varieties.

>
> Keep in mind that each variety will have different periods of bud break,
> flowering, fruit set, maturity and tolerances to different fungicides.
> With these differences comes differences in the spray schedule and possible
> type of fungicide than can be used. For example, some varieties may be
> sensitive to sulphur and some varieties may be sensitive to copper. You
> may be creating a lot of work for yourself. I think the people at Penn
> State could help narrow down the list.
>
> I would suggest that you first decide which wines you prefer by visiting
> local wineries in your area and then see if your particular site is
> suitable for that variety.
>
> Experimentation is fine but a lot of the experimentation has already been
> done by state agriculture extensions. I am not trying to rain on your
> parade but instead speak from experience and trying to pass along my
> lessons learned.
>
> I planted my backyard vineyard not really knowing what information was
> available and not taking advantage of their services immediately. It has
> been a learning experience and I have learned a lot - the hard way - but I
> am closing in on 60 years of age and I don't have that long to learn things
> the hard way. I am now considering converting some of my vines by
> grafting.

Where do you live Bob?
Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"bob" > wrote in message
om...
> In addition to what Paul said which is right on there are just a few
> more things I can add from my experiences. 1) Only you know your area
> so hopefully you have been a gardener and know around what time the
> FIRST and LAST frosts are. If you don't ask your neighbors that
> garden. They should know. There are certain varieties that need longer
> growing seasons esp. vinifera and you want to make sure the vines can
> ripen the fruit to get the best wine possible. The other BIG factor is
> winter temps. I've learned anyone can grow vines in the summer it's
> the WINTER that basically cuts you down to size. If you want to go
> through the work of "burying" the vines then forget what I just said
> but from what you have already said I'm not sure you want to go
> through that. Another thing. If you do grow some vinifera and you
> don't live in a wine growing area you might think about growing
> vinifera on it's own roots especially if you have a sandy-ish soil.
> I'm doing it and it certainly is alot easier training suckers than
> replacing vines. BTW, vinifera requires an extensive spray program and
> stay away from the vines that are suceptible to bunch rot.
>
> Bob

Where do you live Bob?
Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"bob" > wrote in message
om...
> In addition to what Paul said which is right on there are just a few
> more things I can add from my experiences. 1) Only you know your area
> so hopefully you have been a gardener and know around what time the
> FIRST and LAST frosts are. If you don't ask your neighbors that
> garden. They should know. There are certain varieties that need longer
> growing seasons esp. vinifera and you want to make sure the vines can
> ripen the fruit to get the best wine possible. The other BIG factor is
> winter temps. I've learned anyone can grow vines in the summer it's
> the WINTER that basically cuts you down to size. If you want to go
> through the work of "burying" the vines then forget what I just said
> but from what you have already said I'm not sure you want to go
> through that. Another thing. If you do grow some vinifera and you
> don't live in a wine growing area you might think about growing
> vinifera on it's own roots especially if you have a sandy-ish soil.
> I'm doing it and it certainly is alot easier training suckers than
> replacing vines. BTW, vinifera requires an extensive spray program and
> stay away from the vines that are suceptible to bunch rot.
>
> Bob

If you have a duripan or hardpan you need to give the roots a chance to get
through it. I rented the biggest ditch witch trencher I could rent and dug
2 - 6" trenches as deep as she'd go (3-4 ft)right next to each other down
each row. The total width was mostly under 18" and we had no difficulty
doing 8 - 150' rows in one day.(no rock but pretty hard pan). Then I had a
neighbor rototill the whole thing and we planted in the trenches. It worked
great and now that the vines are establishe it is amazing how little
irrigation is required even in this desert climate. The roots go deep!
"PFS" > wrote in message
.net...
> I plan to start about 80 new vines next spring. In some books I've
studied,
> (such as Cox's Vines to Wines) it is suggested to have a backhoe dig and
> refill a 3' x 3' ditch in the fall, prior to spring planting. Other books
> have suggested you should do no more than roto-till the ground in the
fall,
> and that wholesale sub-soiling is unnecessary.
>
> Does anyone have thoughts on the issue? How do you prep your own new
> plantings?
>
> Thanks,
> Paul
>
>

Bill,

I live 40 miles north of NYC. I grow mostly chamboucin but am
branching out to vinifera,tramminette and I'm going to try and get
some Landot 4511,Lacrescent, Sabrevois and St croix next spring. My
season is REALISTICALLY from May 8 (bud break) to Oct 3 (first frost).
It's actually too short for chambourcin so I'm going to slowly phase
out 3/4 of the chambourcin. I planted it when I was a young ,
ignorant viticulturalist. Last 2 winters have been tough. There is a
BIG difference in the cold hardiness of chambourcin compared to
vinifera. There are a couple of observations I'd like to share with
you I've trained some trunks this year that for the most part were
not in the greatest sun position ,mainly shaded, and the color on them
is extraordinary. Beautiful reddish tan, Why? Other shoots that were
positioned in the sun are still green???? I'm questioning the common
thought on this. I'm questioning whether the position in the sun is
the only reason for the color/winterhardiness of the shoots. I guess
I'll know more in April ;). I have sandy soil so I have mulched ALL my
vines with wood chips and have used NO fertilizer and they look
fantastic. No signs of any deficencies which they had shown in the
past. The difference is quite remarkable. Even though I have sandy
soil I grow grass in the middles and just mulch mow which seems to
have increased the water holding capacity of the ground plus adds
compost. I know you grow chamboucin also but do you have any input
into the other varieties I've mentioned?

TIA

Bob

"William Frazier" > wrote in message >...
> Where do you live Bob?
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA
>
> "bob" > wrote in message
> om...
> > In addition to what Paul said which is right on there are just a few
> > more things I can add from my experiences. 1) Only you know your area
> > so hopefully you have been a gardener and know around what time the
> > FIRST and LAST frosts are. If you don't ask your neighbors that
> > garden. They should know. There are certain varieties that need longer
> > growing seasons esp. vinifera and you want to make sure the vines can
> > ripen the fruit to get the best wine possible. The other BIG factor is
> > winter temps. I've learned anyone can grow vines in the summer it's
> > the WINTER that basically cuts you down to size. If you want to go
> > through the work of "burying" the vines then forget what I just said
> > but from what you have already said I'm not sure you want to go
> > through that. Another thing. If you do grow some vinifera and you
> > don't live in a wine growing area you might think about growing
> > vinifera on it's own roots especially if you have a sandy-ish soil.
> > I'm doing it and it certainly is alot easier training suckers than
> > replacing vines. BTW, vinifera requires an extensive spray program and
> > stay away from the vines that are suceptible to bunch rot.
> >
> > Bob

William Frazier wrote:

> All-in-all I would keep the Chambourcin, crop
> thin severely to let them ripen and make great red wine.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA

Just a thought - have you or anyone else following this thread, ever tried
to graft a vinifera onto a Chambourcin vine? This would let you use an
established trunk and root system and not have to take out established
vines. I tried this year but was not successful. Of course, this was my
first experience with grafting. I may try again in the spring. The funny
thing is the Chambourcin that I headed off never did take the graft BUT it
put out amazing growth on its own and is now a very healthy looking vine.