Winemaking (rec.crafts.winemaking) Discussion of the process, recipes, tips, techniques and general exchange of lore on the process, methods and history of wine making. Includes traditional grape wines, sparkling wines & champagnes.

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Jim
 
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Default Removing the seeds

Has anyone tried removing the seeds during fermentation of red wine?
I have been told there is varnish on the seeds that will have a
negative effect on the taste of the wine.
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Stephen SG
 
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From what Vol

Stephen SG
"Jim" > wrote in message
...
| Has anyone tried removing the seeds during fermentation of red wine?
| I have been told there is varnish on the seeds that will have a
| negative effect on the taste of the wine.


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Stephen SG
 
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From what Vol

Stephen SG
"Jim" > wrote in message
...
| Has anyone tried removing the seeds during fermentation of red wine?
| I have been told there is varnish on the seeds that will have a
| negative effect on the taste of the wine.


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Stephen SG
 
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From what Vol

Stephen SG
"Jim" > wrote in message
...
| Has anyone tried removing the seeds during fermentation of red wine?
| I have been told there is varnish on the seeds that will have a
| negative effect on the taste of the wine.


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Jim
 
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Any volume
On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 11:33:48 +0100, "Stephen SG"
> wrote:

>From what Vol
>
>Stephen SG
>"Jim" > wrote in message
.. .
>| Has anyone tried removing the seeds during fermentation of red wine?
>| I have been told there is varnish on the seeds that will have a
>| negative effect on the taste of the wine.
>




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Jim
 
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Any volume
On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 11:33:48 +0100, "Stephen SG"
> wrote:

>From what Vol
>
>Stephen SG
>"Jim" > wrote in message
.. .
>| Has anyone tried removing the seeds during fermentation of red wine?
>| I have been told there is varnish on the seeds that will have a
>| negative effect on the taste of the wine.
>


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Joe Sallustio
 
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Cracking the seeds would be an issue. I never remove them, but I
ussually have it off the skins with 2 weeks or so; if the cap sinks,
I'm pretty close to pressing.
Joe

Jim > wrote in message >. ..
> Has anyone tried removing the seeds during fermentation of red wine?
> I have been told there is varnish on the seeds that will have a
> negative effect on the taste of the wine.

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Joe Sallustio
 
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Cracking the seeds would be an issue. I never remove them, but I
ussually have it off the skins with 2 weeks or so; if the cap sinks,
I'm pretty close to pressing.
Joe

Jim > wrote in message >. ..
> Has anyone tried removing the seeds during fermentation of red wine?
> I have been told there is varnish on the seeds that will have a
> negative effect on the taste of the wine.

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Joe Sallustio
 
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Cracking the seeds would be an issue. I never remove them, but I
ussually have it off the skins with 2 weeks or so; if the cap sinks,
I'm pretty close to pressing.
Joe

Jim > wrote in message >. ..
> Has anyone tried removing the seeds during fermentation of red wine?
> I have been told there is varnish on the seeds that will have a
> negative effect on the taste of the wine.

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Tom S
 
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"Jim" > wrote in message
...
> Has anyone tried removing the seeds during fermentation of red wine?
> I have been told there is varnish on the seeds that will have a
> negative effect on the taste of the wine.


I don't know of anyone who worries about that. I don't think it's a problem
as long as the seeds are not actually crushed.

Tom S




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Tom S
 
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"Jim" > wrote in message
...
> Has anyone tried removing the seeds during fermentation of red wine?
> I have been told there is varnish on the seeds that will have a
> negative effect on the taste of the wine.


I don't know of anyone who worries about that. I don't think it's a problem
as long as the seeds are not actually crushed.

Tom S


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Ray Calvert
 
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I have never done it but there are techniques for removal of the seeds
during fermentation. When you are puching down the cap, many or most of the
seeds will come loose and fall to the bottom. I have read of techneques of
drawing these off and removing them so they do not sit in the wne for the
entire primary. Maybe some one else who has done this will comment on it.
It may be what you are thinking of.

Ray

"Jim" > wrote in message
...
> Has anyone tried removing the seeds during fermentation of red wine?
> I have been told there is varnish on the seeds that will have a
> negative effect on the taste of the wine.



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Jim
 
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Yes Ray this is what I am thinking of.
On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 17:28:37 GMT, "Ray Calvert"
> wrote:

>I have never done it but there are techniques for removal of the seeds
>during fermentation. When you are puching down the cap, many or most of the
>seeds will come loose and fall to the bottom. I have read of techneques of
>drawing these off and removing them so they do not sit in the wne for the
>entire primary. Maybe some one else who has done this will comment on it.
>It may be what you are thinking of.
>
>Ray
>
>"Jim" > wrote in message
.. .
>> Has anyone tried removing the seeds during fermentation of red wine?
>> I have been told there is varnish on the seeds that will have a
>> negative effect on the taste of the wine.

>


  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jim
 
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Yes Ray this is what I am thinking of.
On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 17:28:37 GMT, "Ray Calvert"
> wrote:

>I have never done it but there are techniques for removal of the seeds
>during fermentation. When you are puching down the cap, many or most of the
>seeds will come loose and fall to the bottom. I have read of techneques of
>drawing these off and removing them so they do not sit in the wne for the
>entire primary. Maybe some one else who has done this will comment on it.
>It may be what you are thinking of.
>
>Ray
>
>"Jim" > wrote in message
.. .
>> Has anyone tried removing the seeds during fermentation of red wine?
>> I have been told there is varnish on the seeds that will have a
>> negative effect on the taste of the wine.

>


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Darwin Vander Stelt
 
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I have been removing seeds via the delestage technique. (not sure of the
proper terminology.) I did notice the tannins were quite a bit less
noticeable, and at an earlier age.(which is one of my objectives right now
since my cellar is pretty empty!) It makes for a less complex wine, and it
seemed to me that the fruit is like a picture without a backdrop. The
tannins sort of give a solid background against which the contours of the
other flavors are more "visible". Not being an expert in any sense of the
word, I'm curious what some of the more knowledgeable members think of that
idea?





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Darwin Vander Stelt
 
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I have been removing seeds via the delestage technique. (not sure of the
proper terminology.) I did notice the tannins were quite a bit less
noticeable, and at an earlier age.(which is one of my objectives right now
since my cellar is pretty empty!) It makes for a less complex wine, and it
seemed to me that the fruit is like a picture without a backdrop. The
tannins sort of give a solid background against which the contours of the
other flavors are more "visible". Not being an expert in any sense of the
word, I'm curious what some of the more knowledgeable members think of that
idea?



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Aaron Puhala
 
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There are two main parts to delestage fermentation, exportation of seeds and
macro-oxidation. I have 4 primary fermentors with bottom drains that allow
me to do delestage fermentation (or just rack-and-return without seed
deportation) if I want (good summary of
delestage:http://www.vwm-online.com/Magazine/A.../Delestage.htm).
My main reason for having the ability to drain my fermentors is so I can
practice rack-and-return with macro-oxidation but delestage is also
possible. Exporting the seeds is most beneficial when your grapes are in a
less than optimally ripe condition because the tannins are very green and
can have a negative impact on the wine quality. With ripe fruit, however,
the seed tannins are more developed and can add complexity and body to the
wine especially if macro-oxidation and extended maceration are done.

CHEERS!

Aaron

"Darwin Vander Stelt" > wrote in message
...
>I have been removing seeds via the delestage technique. (not sure of the
> proper terminology.) I did notice the tannins were quite a bit less
> noticeable, and at an earlier age.(which is one of my objectives right now
> since my cellar is pretty empty!) It makes for a less complex wine, and
> it
> seemed to me that the fruit is like a picture without a backdrop. The
> tannins sort of give a solid background against which the contours of the
> other flavors are more "visible". Not being an expert in any sense of the
> word, I'm curious what some of the more knowledgeable members think of
> that
> idea?
>
>
>



  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Aaron Puhala
 
Posts: n/a
Default

There are two main parts to delestage fermentation, exportation of seeds and
macro-oxidation. I have 4 primary fermentors with bottom drains that allow
me to do delestage fermentation (or just rack-and-return without seed
deportation) if I want (good summary of
delestage:http://www.vwm-online.com/Magazine/A.../Delestage.htm).
My main reason for having the ability to drain my fermentors is so I can
practice rack-and-return with macro-oxidation but delestage is also
possible. Exporting the seeds is most beneficial when your grapes are in a
less than optimally ripe condition because the tannins are very green and
can have a negative impact on the wine quality. With ripe fruit, however,
the seed tannins are more developed and can add complexity and body to the
wine especially if macro-oxidation and extended maceration are done.

CHEERS!

Aaron

"Darwin Vander Stelt" > wrote in message
...
>I have been removing seeds via the delestage technique. (not sure of the
> proper terminology.) I did notice the tannins were quite a bit less
> noticeable, and at an earlier age.(which is one of my objectives right now
> since my cellar is pretty empty!) It makes for a less complex wine, and
> it
> seemed to me that the fruit is like a picture without a backdrop. The
> tannins sort of give a solid background against which the contours of the
> other flavors are more "visible". Not being an expert in any sense of the
> word, I'm curious what some of the more knowledgeable members think of
> that
> idea?
>
>
>



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Ben Rotter
 
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"Ray Calvert" > wrote:
> >I have never done it but there are techniques for removal of the seeds
> >during fermentation. When you are puching down the cap, many or most of the
> >seeds will come loose and fall to the bottom. I have read of techneques of
> >drawing these off and removing them so they do not sit in the wne for the
> >entire primary. Maybe some one else who has done this will comment on it.
> >It may be what you are thinking of.


Jim > wrote:
> Yes Ray this is what I am thinking of.


Possibly délestage (or "rack and return"). Whilst this technique isn't
used *specifically* for seed removal, it is a potential side benefit.

Juice/wine from the bottom of the fermenting vat is drawn off and
thoroughly aerated before arriving in a separate storage vessel. Seeds
and stems can be separated via a screen at this point. The pomace then
at the bottom of the vat is completely drained (over a number of
hours). The juice/wine in the separate storage vessel is then pumped
back into the vat over the pomace.

The process boasts the following benefits:

*helps pomace to bulk wine contact (extraction and less chance of
undesirable microflora developing in the cap)
*removes lees at the bottom of the vat, potentially reducing reductive
tones
*colour is stabilised by fixing anthocyanins
*minimises tannins/phenolics (especially with removal of seeds) whilst
retaining fruitiness
*oxidative polymerisation of tannins takes place during draining
leading to more supple texture
*removal of seeds reduced dryness, astringency, bitterness and the
presence of harsh phenols
*the wines possess less structure but are more approachable when young
and still ageable

Ben

Improved Winemaking
http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/
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Ben Rotter
 
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"Ray Calvert" > wrote:
> >I have never done it but there are techniques for removal of the seeds
> >during fermentation. When you are puching down the cap, many or most of the
> >seeds will come loose and fall to the bottom. I have read of techneques of
> >drawing these off and removing them so they do not sit in the wne for the
> >entire primary. Maybe some one else who has done this will comment on it.
> >It may be what you are thinking of.


Jim > wrote:
> Yes Ray this is what I am thinking of.


Possibly délestage (or "rack and return"). Whilst this technique isn't
used *specifically* for seed removal, it is a potential side benefit.

Juice/wine from the bottom of the fermenting vat is drawn off and
thoroughly aerated before arriving in a separate storage vessel. Seeds
and stems can be separated via a screen at this point. The pomace then
at the bottom of the vat is completely drained (over a number of
hours). The juice/wine in the separate storage vessel is then pumped
back into the vat over the pomace.

The process boasts the following benefits:

*helps pomace to bulk wine contact (extraction and less chance of
undesirable microflora developing in the cap)
*removes lees at the bottom of the vat, potentially reducing reductive
tones
*colour is stabilised by fixing anthocyanins
*minimises tannins/phenolics (especially with removal of seeds) whilst
retaining fruitiness
*oxidative polymerisation of tannins takes place during draining
leading to more supple texture
*removal of seeds reduced dryness, astringency, bitterness and the
presence of harsh phenols
*the wines possess less structure but are more approachable when young
and still ageable

Ben

Improved Winemaking
http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/


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Jim
 
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Thank you all for the information.

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 05:32:59 GMT, Jim > wrote:

>Has anyone tried removing the seeds during fermentation of red wine?
>I have been told there is varnish on the seeds that will have a
>negative effect on the taste of the wine.


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