Winemaking (rec.crafts.winemaking) Discussion of the process, recipes, tips, techniques and general exchange of lore on the process, methods and history of wine making. Includes traditional grape wines, sparkling wines & champagnes.

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
reply@grouponly
 
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Default Non-Grape, Fruit Wines (Newbie Asks)

Greetings,

I'm really struck by the recipes I've seen for fruit wines, meaning
wines made from non-grapes. Peach, plum,tomato,etc. The vinifera
recipe at it's simplest is 15-16lbs. or so of grapes and yeast. But
every other recipes needs SUGAR added. I ask myself, what's the
yeast feeding on, coverting, etc. - The fruit or the sugar ?
Answer: Sugar.

Not to be blasphemous, but it seems that most fruit wines are just
yeast, sugar and fruit- "flavoring". Is this true? What about before
that advent of refined sugar?

Andrew
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Oberon
 
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<reply@grouponly> wrote in message
...
> Greetings,
>
> I'm really struck by the recipes I've seen for fruit wines, meaning
> wines made from non-grapes. Peach, plum,tomato,etc. The vinifera
> recipe at it's simplest is 15-16lbs. or so of grapes and yeast. But
> every other recipes needs SUGAR added. I ask myself, what's the
> yeast feeding on, coverting, etc. - The fruit or the sugar ?
> Answer: Sugar.



Andrew,

Grapes are very high in sugar content, higher than most other fruits.
Grapes can make a 'wine strength' must (one that will ferment dry to ~12%
alcohol level) without the addition of sugar. Most other fruits don't have
this level of sugar content naturally, and so sugar is added to increase the
sugar content to 'wine strength' for preservative reasons as well as balance
and others.

> Not to be blasphemous, but it seems that most fruit wines are just
> yeast, sugar and fruit- "flavoring". Is this true? What about before
> that advent of refined sugar?
>
> Andrew


Honey or some other substitute, or a low alcohol fruit wine. But don't
think that the addition of sugar makes a fruit wine a 'fruit flavored' sugar
ferment. Fruit wines can have enormous amounts of flavor, and fruit other
than grapes has the advantage of being readily available in many more
geographic regions and at many other times in the growing season than
grapes. You can also buy fruit juice in many convenient forms; frozen
canned concentrate, 100% 'varietal' fruit juice in natural food stores or
higher end grocery stores, in 100% juice mixes, etc. There are also dried,
canned, and frozen fruits available at most grocery stores. And most
homebrew shops will carry canned fruit for winemaking in addition to grape
wine juice kits.
For the home winemaker, fruit wines are an excellent alternative to
vinifera, and produce very rewarding results.


--
Cheers,
Ken


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reply@grouponly
 
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<snip>
>grapes. You can also buy fruit juice in many convenient forms; frozen
>canned concentrate, 100% 'varietal' fruit juice in natural food stores or
>higher end grocery stores, in 100% juice mixes, etc. There are also dried,
>canned, and frozen fruits available at most grocery stores. And most
>homebrew shops will carry canned fruit for winemaking in addition to grape
>wine juice kits.
>For the home winemaker, fruit wines are an excellent alternative to
>vinifera, and produce very rewarding results.


I didn't know you could use canned or concentrated juices. I thought
fresh fruit was needed. And from the store that looked REALLY pricey !
Especially berries - though I guess that could be a regional thing.

Thx,

Andrew
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<snip>
>grapes. You can also buy fruit juice in many convenient forms; frozen
>canned concentrate, 100% 'varietal' fruit juice in natural food stores or
>higher end grocery stores, in 100% juice mixes, etc. There are also dried,
>canned, and frozen fruits available at most grocery stores. And most
>homebrew shops will carry canned fruit for winemaking in addition to grape
>wine juice kits.
>For the home winemaker, fruit wines are an excellent alternative to
>vinifera, and produce very rewarding results.


I didn't know you could use canned or concentrated juices. I thought
fresh fruit was needed. And from the store that looked REALLY pricey !
Especially berries - though I guess that could be a regional thing.

Thx,

Andrew
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Tepe
 
Posts: n/a
Default

If you want wine from fruit go to a U-PICK place.I have made Blueberry,
Strawberry, Cranberry, Peach and Blackberry wine from fresh fruit. I make
the wine when the fruit is in season and I pick-my-own. This brings the
price down ALOT!. I just got a crate if Peaches 3/4 bushel for only $8.00
added sugar and yeast ===== WINE made cheap.
Tom

--

Home of the
MOON RIVER BREWERY
&
DELANCO VINEYARDS


<reply@grouponly> wrote in message
...
> <snip>
> >grapes. You can also buy fruit juice in many convenient forms; frozen
> >canned concentrate, 100% 'varietal' fruit juice in natural food stores or
> >higher end grocery stores, in 100% juice mixes, etc. There are also

dried,
> >canned, and frozen fruits available at most grocery stores. And most
> >homebrew shops will carry canned fruit for winemaking in addition to

grape
> >wine juice kits.
> >For the home winemaker, fruit wines are an excellent alternative to
> >vinifera, and produce very rewarding results.

>
> I didn't know you could use canned or concentrated juices. I thought
> fresh fruit was needed. And from the store that looked REALLY pricey !
> Especially berries - though I guess that could be a regional thing.
>
> Thx,
>
> Andrew





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Tepe
 
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If you want wine from fruit go to a U-PICK place.I have made Blueberry,
Strawberry, Cranberry, Peach and Blackberry wine from fresh fruit. I make
the wine when the fruit is in season and I pick-my-own. This brings the
price down ALOT!. I just got a crate if Peaches 3/4 bushel for only $8.00
added sugar and yeast ===== WINE made cheap.
Tom

--

Home of the
MOON RIVER BREWERY
&
DELANCO VINEYARDS


<reply@grouponly> wrote in message
...
> <snip>
> >grapes. You can also buy fruit juice in many convenient forms; frozen
> >canned concentrate, 100% 'varietal' fruit juice in natural food stores or
> >higher end grocery stores, in 100% juice mixes, etc. There are also

dried,
> >canned, and frozen fruits available at most grocery stores. And most
> >homebrew shops will carry canned fruit for winemaking in addition to

grape
> >wine juice kits.
> >For the home winemaker, fruit wines are an excellent alternative to
> >vinifera, and produce very rewarding results.

>
> I didn't know you could use canned or concentrated juices. I thought
> fresh fruit was needed. And from the store that looked REALLY pricey !
> Especially berries - though I guess that could be a regional thing.
>
> Thx,
>
> Andrew



  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dar V
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You're right in that most fruit wines are made up of yeast, sugar, and
fruit, but I don't know that I would go so far to say just "flavored wines".
Fruit wines don't necessarily taste like the fruit you make them out of -
they're just different. It is hard to explain, but fruit wines are unique
and they certainly don't taste like regular wine you buy at the liquor
store. I see that as a positive, but others may not. And I will add(and
this is probably blasphemous too), but I was getting a bit bored with the
wines which are out there.
I was attracted to making wine because I had too much rhubarb in my
garden. That's when it started and I've gone on to make many other wines
from stuff from my garden or from u-pick places. The other neat thing about
making it myself is that I can make the wine the way I like it, not the way
someone else decides. Plus, my wine is different and unique.
Darlene

<reply@grouponly> wrote in message
...
> Greetings,
>
> I'm really struck by the recipes I've seen for fruit wines, meaning
> wines made from non-grapes. Peach, plum,tomato,etc. The vinifera
> recipe at it's simplest is 15-16lbs. or so of grapes and yeast. But
> every other recipes needs SUGAR added. I ask myself, what's the
> yeast feeding on, coverting, etc. - The fruit or the sugar ?
> Answer: Sugar.
>
> Not to be blasphemous, but it seems that most fruit wines are just
> yeast, sugar and fruit- "flavoring". Is this true? What about before
> that advent of refined sugar?
>
> Andrew



  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dar V
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You're right in that most fruit wines are made up of yeast, sugar, and
fruit, but I don't know that I would go so far to say just "flavored wines".
Fruit wines don't necessarily taste like the fruit you make them out of -
they're just different. It is hard to explain, but fruit wines are unique
and they certainly don't taste like regular wine you buy at the liquor
store. I see that as a positive, but others may not. And I will add(and
this is probably blasphemous too), but I was getting a bit bored with the
wines which are out there.
I was attracted to making wine because I had too much rhubarb in my
garden. That's when it started and I've gone on to make many other wines
from stuff from my garden or from u-pick places. The other neat thing about
making it myself is that I can make the wine the way I like it, not the way
someone else decides. Plus, my wine is different and unique.
Darlene

<reply@grouponly> wrote in message
...
> Greetings,
>
> I'm really struck by the recipes I've seen for fruit wines, meaning
> wines made from non-grapes. Peach, plum,tomato,etc. The vinifera
> recipe at it's simplest is 15-16lbs. or so of grapes and yeast. But
> every other recipes needs SUGAR added. I ask myself, what's the
> yeast feeding on, coverting, etc. - The fruit or the sugar ?
> Answer: Sugar.
>
> Not to be blasphemous, but it seems that most fruit wines are just
> yeast, sugar and fruit- "flavoring". Is this true? What about before
> that advent of refined sugar?
>
> Andrew



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reply@grouponly
 
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On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:15:02 GMT, "Dar V" > wrote:

> You're right in that most fruit wines are made up of yeast, sugar, and
>fruit, but I don't know that I would go so far to say just "flavored wines".
>Fruit wines don't necessarily taste like the fruit you make them out of -
>they're just different. It is hard to explain, but fruit wines are unique
>and they certainly don't taste like regular wine you buy at the liquor
>store. I see that as a positive, but others may not. And I will add(and
>this is probably blasphemous too), but I was getting a bit bored with the
>wines which are out there.
> I was attracted to making wine because I had too much rhubarb in my
>garden. That's when it started and I've gone on to make many other wines
>from stuff from my garden or from u-pick places. The other neat thing about
>making it myself is that I can make the wine the way I like it, not the way
>someone else decides. Plus, my wine is different and unique.
> Darlene
>


'Nuff said.


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reply@grouponly
 
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Default

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:15:02 GMT, "Dar V" > wrote:

> You're right in that most fruit wines are made up of yeast, sugar, and
>fruit, but I don't know that I would go so far to say just "flavored wines".
>Fruit wines don't necessarily taste like the fruit you make them out of -
>they're just different. It is hard to explain, but fruit wines are unique
>and they certainly don't taste like regular wine you buy at the liquor
>store. I see that as a positive, but others may not. And I will add(and
>this is probably blasphemous too), but I was getting a bit bored with the
>wines which are out there.
> I was attracted to making wine because I had too much rhubarb in my
>garden. That's when it started and I've gone on to make many other wines
>from stuff from my garden or from u-pick places. The other neat thing about
>making it myself is that I can make the wine the way I like it, not the way
>someone else decides. Plus, my wine is different and unique.
> Darlene
>


'Nuff said.




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Woodswun
 
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Default

In article >, "Tepe" > wrote:
>If you want wine from fruit go to a U-PICK place.I have made Blueberry,
>Strawberry, Cranberry, Peach and Blackberry wine from fresh fruit. I make
>the wine when the fruit is in season and I pick-my-own. This brings the
>price down ALOT!. I just got a crate if Peaches 3/4 bushel for only $8.00
>added sugar and yeast ===== WINE made cheap.
>Tom
>



Ooo - I'm jellus! We don't have U-pick blackberries around here, and the wild
ones are much too sparse to find enough for wine, or even a mel. I've had very
good success with pear, strawberry and raspberry. I didn't think my peach had
turned out very well, but now that it's been bottled for a month or so, it's
gotten much, much better. Blueberry always seems kind of ..... flat. Make for
a great sparkling mel, though.

I'd love to find someplace that had U-pick mulberries, as it supposedly makes an
excellent mel.

Woods
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Woodswun
 
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In article >, "Tepe" > wrote:
>If you want wine from fruit go to a U-PICK place.I have made Blueberry,
>Strawberry, Cranberry, Peach and Blackberry wine from fresh fruit. I make
>the wine when the fruit is in season and I pick-my-own. This brings the
>price down ALOT!. I just got a crate if Peaches 3/4 bushel for only $8.00
>added sugar and yeast ===== WINE made cheap.
>Tom
>



Ooo - I'm jellus! We don't have U-pick blackberries around here, and the wild
ones are much too sparse to find enough for wine, or even a mel. I've had very
good success with pear, strawberry and raspberry. I didn't think my peach had
turned out very well, but now that it's been bottled for a month or so, it's
gotten much, much better. Blueberry always seems kind of ..... flat. Make for
a great sparkling mel, though.

I'd love to find someplace that had U-pick mulberries, as it supposedly makes an
excellent mel.

Woods
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Oberon
 
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<reply@grouponly> wrote in message
...
[thread snipped]

> I didn't know you could use canned or concentrated juices. I thought
> fresh fruit was needed. And from the store that looked REALLY pricey !
> Especially berries - though I guess that could be a regional thing.
>
> Thx,
>
> Andrew


Andrew,

Store bought fruit can be expensive indeed. But if you keep your eyes open
you can usually find seasonal sales. It does depend on your location, but I
find many fruits on sale for about $1US/lb in VA, and my in-laws in NJ have
fruit as low as 75 cents per pound in their local grocery stores.


--
Cheers,
Ken


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Oberon
 
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Default


<reply@grouponly> wrote in message
...
[thread snipped]

> I didn't know you could use canned or concentrated juices. I thought
> fresh fruit was needed. And from the store that looked REALLY pricey !
> Especially berries - though I guess that could be a regional thing.
>
> Thx,
>
> Andrew


Andrew,

Store bought fruit can be expensive indeed. But if you keep your eyes open
you can usually find seasonal sales. It does depend on your location, but I
find many fruits on sale for about $1US/lb in VA, and my in-laws in NJ have
fruit as low as 75 cents per pound in their local grocery stores.


--
Cheers,
Ken


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Roger D. Placer
 
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> Not to be blasphemous, but it seems that most fruit wines are just
> yeast, sugar and fruit- "flavoring". Is this true? What about before
> that advent of refined sugar?


I know this thread has ended at "'Nuff said" but I wanted to comment... the
above summary needs a stronger reply.

The sugar in fruit (grapes or any other) is converted to alcohol during
fermentation. When sugar is added to a must, it too is converted to
alcohol. The difference between intrinsic and added sugar is negligible,
insignificant - it all goes away to become alcohol. The yeast that performs
the fermentation is NOT part of the finished wine - it is a means to an end.
So what does that say about the original poster's comment that "fruit wines
are just yeast, sugar, and fruit 'flavoring'":

- There is no yeast in the finished wine
- There is no sugar in the finished wine (assuming ferment to dryness)

So what is left is alcohol and the fruit essence, plus the intangible, just
like grape wine. There is no rule that says you cannot ferment 'other'
fruit in a manner similar to grapes, meaning 100% fruit (no water) - with
only sugar added to allow a standard finished alcohol level of 10-13
percent. In fact, this is a very satisfying way to pursue fruit winemaking,
because it allows you to reach the potential of certain fruit wines to be
full-flavored, rich, and true to themselves.

In fact, the very absence of such fruit wines in the commercial market is
what originally led me to try winemaking. So far, I have had the most
success with berry wines (blue, black, rasp, and straw), peach, plum, apple,
and pear in my 100% fruit efforts. And that's enough to keep me very
interested in fruit wines even though I make a couple of red grape wines
each harvest.

Roger
Quinta do Placer




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Reticulum
 
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<snip>
> So what is left is alcohol and the fruit essence, plus the intangible, just
> like grape wine. There is no rule that says you cannot ferment 'other'
> fruit in a manner similar to grapes, meaning 100% fruit (no water) - with
> only sugar added to allow a standard finished alcohol level of 10-13
> percent. In fact, this is a very satisfying way to pursue fruit winemaking,
> because it allows you to reach the potential of certain fruit wines to be
> full-flavored, rich, and true to themselves.
>
> In fact, the very absence of such fruit wines in the commercial market is
> what originally led me to try winemaking. So far, I have had the most
> success with berry wines (blue, black, rasp, and straw), peach, plum, apple,
> and pear in my 100% fruit efforts. And that's enough to keep me very
> interested in fruit wines even though I make a couple of red grape wines
> each harvest.
>
> Roger
> Quinta do Placer


Rodger,

I'm really glad you decided to reply. As you know, I'm a Newbie and
don't have your level of knowledge or experience. Yet, after several
extensive 'net crawls thru google, I really hadn't found squat about
fruit-wine making that *didn't* involve large amounts of sugar. It was
beginning to look like 5lb. bags of Domino's Refined Sugar mattered
more than the fruit!

I'm a little confused by some of your reply though; You say no H2O
whereas many "real" grape wines add it. You also said using sugar to
achieve OH levels of 10-13. But how much sugar is that? Most of all,
I'd like to know more about how you're able to make your fruit-wines
more "au natural", if you will.

---Andrew
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> I'm a little confused by some of your reply though; You say no H2O
> whereas many "real" grape wines add it. You also said using sugar to
> achieve OH levels of 10-13. But how much sugar is that? Most of all,
> I'd like to know more about how you're able to make your fruit-wines
> more "au natural", if you will.


Hi Andrew,

It is true that some grapes require amelioration with acid, sugar, or
water - to address various deficiencies. Acid addition for high pH,
sugar addition for low starting Brix, water addition for high starting
Brix and/or high acid. But in general grape wine is made "au naturel."
At least we seek to do so!

The amount of sugar added to any fruit to reach 'standard' winemaking
starting SG is, of course, variable based on the natural sugar present
in that fruit - fruit type notwithstanding. With grapes the addition
is typically minimal, because grapes - even at their worst - routinely
come very close. Ben Rotter's Improved Winemaking site has some tables
showing typical sugar and acid content in various fruits
(http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter/). However it is imperative to
measure your must in order to get an accurate starting point. It's
pointless for me to cite "5 lbs" or "50 lbs" because natural sugar and
volume of must are critical to the equation.

There are various techniques for determining starting SG with *pure
fruit* that you will get accustomed to selecting from with experience.
For example, it is generally very helpful to freeze many types of
fruit prior to fermentation in order to facilitate tissue breakdown
and the resulting release of juice.

Take strawberries for example; you can freeze them in Ziploc bags from
which you have pressed out all the air. Thaw them in the same bags,
and as they warm up they will begin to virtually drain themselves of
their color and juice. You can pour off a sample of this juice to
determine starting gravity. After 2 days of thawing, which can be
considered cold maceration, I would press the strawberries just like
white grapes and ferment the juice only. This juice would be measured
for SG and sugar added accordingly. I don't even keep notes on the
quantity, just the original 'raw' SG and the adjusted 'starting' SG.

Many fruits simply do not contain adequate liquid in any reasonable
quantity to follow the 100% philosophy. Bananas, figs, cranberries,
tomatoes, etc. - so for these fruits one would follow more traditional
'country' winemaking techniques. I tend to focus on fruits that have
reasonable sugar and liquid, such as berries, apples, pears, peaches,
plums, and so on. It's not possible to do this with simply *anything.*

Finally, the fruits I choose are typically moderate to high acid
fruits. As such, I avoid adding acid. In fact, I take the approach of
"finish it they way it wants to be finished." That means ferment to
dryness, then sweeten to taste according to the final acidity of the
wine. Some wines can be left dry, whereas some require sweetening.
Also, you are free to try a malolactic fermentation with malic fruits
like peach and blackberry. That can reduce the acid even more
(possibly too much) - allowing for additional options.

So that's a basic overview of my own approach that's evolved. I have
only 3 'vintages' under my belt but in that time I have found what I
like.

Roger
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Ray
 
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Before there was refined sugar there was honey. Mead and Melomel was the
drink. Melomel is honey wine made with fruit. Inother words you are just
using the same recipe but with honey instead of sugar. Why did people stop
using honey? Sugar is cheaper.

Ray

<reply@grouponly> wrote in message
...
> Greetings,
>
> I'm really struck by the recipes I've seen for fruit wines, meaning
> wines made from non-grapes. Peach, plum,tomato,etc. The vinifera
> recipe at it's simplest is 15-16lbs. or so of grapes and yeast. But
> every other recipes needs SUGAR added. I ask myself, what's the
> yeast feeding on, coverting, etc. - The fruit or the sugar ?
> Answer: Sugar.
>
> Not to be blasphemous, but it seems that most fruit wines are just
> yeast, sugar and fruit- "flavoring". Is this true? What about before
> that advent of refined sugar?
>
> Andrew
>



  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ray
 
Posts: n/a
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Before there was refined sugar there was honey. Mead and Melomel was the
drink. Melomel is honey wine made with fruit. Inother words you are just
using the same recipe but with honey instead of sugar. Why did people stop
using honey? Sugar is cheaper.

Ray

<reply@grouponly> wrote in message
...
> Greetings,
>
> I'm really struck by the recipes I've seen for fruit wines, meaning
> wines made from non-grapes. Peach, plum,tomato,etc. The vinifera
> recipe at it's simplest is 15-16lbs. or so of grapes and yeast. But
> every other recipes needs SUGAR added. I ask myself, what's the
> yeast feeding on, coverting, etc. - The fruit or the sugar ?
> Answer: Sugar.
>
> Not to be blasphemous, but it seems that most fruit wines are just
> yeast, sugar and fruit- "flavoring". Is this true? What about before
> that advent of refined sugar?
>
> Andrew
>



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