Thank You Ray:

I found a thread from 1998 on blackberry wine that was over 100 posts.
It is quite interesting. Evidently very few under-ripe berrys in a
batch can make the wine quite astringent and leaving it on the seeds
too long can do this as well.

Well, since the black berries are free it's obviously false economy to
scrimp on the quanity. So I will shoot for 30lbs for a 5 gallon
batch. I've been very careful to pick only the ripest fruit since I
can check the patches more or less daily.

One of the reasons I asked the original question is, I have ran into
canes in one location producing berries so rich in flavor they taste
almost like licorice. Never have bumped into this before.

Thanks
Steve Vegos

>"Ray" > wrote:

>
>"spud" > wrote in message
.. .
>> I'm a rank noobie and have to ask if the blackberry at 5 or 6 lbs. per
>> gallon is fresh picked or store bought. Is there a difference?
>>
>> Steve Vegos
>>
>5-6 lbs is basic for blackberry but as to whether store bought are different
>from fresh picked.

snip

> If you really
>get into all this you will probably want to check TA and pH on any of these
>and learn to adjust them for ballance. This may improve your chances of a
>superior wine. Or you can just do it by recipe and make a probably make a
>decent or better wine. If you are just starting, just go by recipe and
>don't worry.
>
>Ray
>

Thank You Ray:

I found a thread from 1998 on blackberry wine that was over 100 posts.
It is quite interesting. Evidently very few under-ripe berrys in a
batch can make the wine quite astringent and leaving it on the seeds
too long can do this as well.

Well, since the black berries are free it's obviously false economy to
scrimp on the quanity. So I will shoot for 30lbs for a 5 gallon
batch. I've been very careful to pick only the ripest fruit since I
can check the patches more or less daily.

One of the reasons I asked the original question is, I have ran into
canes in one location producing berries so rich in flavor they taste
almost like licorice. Never have bumped into this before.

Thanks
Steve Vegos

>"Ray" > wrote:

>
>"spud" > wrote in message
.. .
>> I'm a rank noobie and have to ask if the blackberry at 5 or 6 lbs. per
>> gallon is fresh picked or store bought. Is there a difference?
>>
>> Steve Vegos
>>
>5-6 lbs is basic for blackberry but as to whether store bought are different
>from fresh picked.

snip

> If you really
>get into all this you will probably want to check TA and pH on any of these
>and learn to adjust them for ballance. This may improve your chances of a
>superior wine. Or you can just do it by recipe and make a probably make a
>decent or better wine. If you are just starting, just go by recipe and
>don't worry.
>
>Ray
>

Steve,

Ever wonder how those "new" blackberry varieties are developed? Well,
there is an intensive cross-breeding program behind it, for sure, but
originally it began when someone "selected" a particular wild berry
plant for retention because it had unusually large berries, unusually
good flavor, or some other characteristic they wanted to retain. The
berries you mentioned with the intense flavor may be candidates for
further study.

You might want to attempt to identify the exact cane that produces
those berries and tag it with a piece of ribbon so that you can return
in the winter (when the canes are dormant) and dig it up. Replant it
right away in a good location where it will get about the same sun
exposure and water as the original site. Give the canes a year or two
to see if they continue producing the same flavor of berries. If they
do, then contact the University of Arkansas or Oregon State, two major
blackberry breeders in the U.S., and describe the flavors to them and
ask if they want the plant. I'm not saying they will, but if they do
then your "find" may end up being bred into a new berry someday.

Just a thought....

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Steve,

Ever wonder how those "new" blackberry varieties are developed? Well,
there is an intensive cross-breeding program behind it, for sure, but
originally it began when someone "selected" a particular wild berry
plant for retention because it had unusually large berries, unusually
good flavor, or some other characteristic they wanted to retain. The
berries you mentioned with the intense flavor may be candidates for
further study.

You might want to attempt to identify the exact cane that produces
those berries and tag it with a piece of ribbon so that you can return
in the winter (when the canes are dormant) and dig it up. Replant it
right away in a good location where it will get about the same sun
exposure and water as the original site. Give the canes a year or two
to see if they continue producing the same flavor of berries. If they
do, then contact the University of Arkansas or Oregon State, two major
blackberry breeders in the U.S., and describe the flavors to them and
ask if they want the plant. I'm not saying they will, but if they do
then your "find" may end up being bred into a new berry someday.

Just a thought....

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Thanks for the suggestion. Found and flagged the canes today and will
do a 'Pepsi Challange' as a reality check to my palate. We'll see
what happens.

Steve
Oregon

>(Jack Keller) suggested:

>Steve,
>
>Ever wonder how those "new" blackberry varieties are developed? Well,
>there is an intensive cross-breeding program behind it, for sure, but
>originally it began when someone "selected" a particular wild berry
>plant for retention because it had unusually large berries, unusually
>good flavor, or some other characteristic they wanted to retain. The
>berries you mentioned with the intense flavor may be candidates for
>further study.
>
>You might want to attempt to identify the exact cane that produces
>those berries and tag it with a piece of ribbon so that you can return
>in the winter (when the canes are dormant) and dig it up. Replant it
>right away in a good location where it will get about the same sun
>exposure and water as the original site. Give the canes a year or two
>to see if they continue producing the same flavor of berries. If they
>do, then contact the University of Arkansas or Oregon State, two major
>blackberry breeders in the U.S., and describe the flavors to them and
>ask if they want the plant. I'm not saying they will, but if they do
>then your "find" may end up being bred into a new berry someday.
>
>Just a thought....
>
>Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
>http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Thanks for the suggestion. Found and flagged the canes today and will
do a 'Pepsi Challange' as a reality check to my palate. We'll see
what happens.

Steve
Oregon

>(Jack Keller) suggested:

>Steve,
>
>Ever wonder how those "new" blackberry varieties are developed? Well,
>there is an intensive cross-breeding program behind it, for sure, but
>originally it began when someone "selected" a particular wild berry
>plant for retention because it had unusually large berries, unusually
>good flavor, or some other characteristic they wanted to retain. The
>berries you mentioned with the intense flavor may be candidates for
>further study.
>
>You might want to attempt to identify the exact cane that produces
>those berries and tag it with a piece of ribbon so that you can return
>in the winter (when the canes are dormant) and dig it up. Replant it
>right away in a good location where it will get about the same sun
>exposure and water as the original site. Give the canes a year or two
>to see if they continue producing the same flavor of berries. If they
>do, then contact the University of Arkansas or Oregon State, two major
>blackberry breeders in the U.S., and describe the flavors to them and
>ask if they want the plant. I'm not saying they will, but if they do
>then your "find" may end up being bred into a new berry someday.
>
>Just a thought....
>
>Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
>http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Thanks for the suggestion. Found and flagged the canes today and will
do a 'Pepsi Challange' as a reality check to my palate. We'll see
what happens.

Steve
Oregon

>(Jack Keller) suggested:

>Steve,
>
>Ever wonder how those "new" blackberry varieties are developed? Well,
>there is an intensive cross-breeding program behind it, for sure, but
>originally it began when someone "selected" a particular wild berry
>plant for retention because it had unusually large berries, unusually
>good flavor, or some other characteristic they wanted to retain. The
>berries you mentioned with the intense flavor may be candidates for
>further study.
>
>You might want to attempt to identify the exact cane that produces
>those berries and tag it with a piece of ribbon so that you can return
>in the winter (when the canes are dormant) and dig it up. Replant it
>right away in a good location where it will get about the same sun
>exposure and water as the original site. Give the canes a year or two
>to see if they continue producing the same flavor of berries. If they
>do, then contact the University of Arkansas or Oregon State, two major
>blackberry breeders in the U.S., and describe the flavors to them and
>ask if they want the plant. I'm not saying they will, but if they do
>then your "find" may end up being bred into a new berry someday.
>
>Just a thought....
>
>Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
>http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

in article , danthemen at
wrote on 6/8/04 3:54 pm:

>> Never had to buy blackberries. There are loads of them here in England just
>> growing everywhere they can. Where we take the dog is a bit of an open
>> space/nature reserve and the paths have bramble bushes along side them. Its
>> such a shame to see so many wasted each year.
>
> The blackberries are hardly wasted if they are left to supply the (ever
> decreasing) wildlife with a healthy supply of food.
> After all, they need it more than you or I.
> On a more positive note, has anybody ever tried making a pure blackberry
> wine? I made five gallons of the stuff last year, only adding sugar to
> raise the alcohol to 11-12% and after only a year of ageing in the
> barrel it tastes seriously good, if still a little harsh. I really
> recommend it. I know, I know, I am contradicting myself big style but
> there was a HUGE crop last year so I hardly damaged the numbers of
> blackberries at all.
> Please do try it!

There are loads more than last year where we go. What we've picked has
hardly made a dent in the amount still left on the bushes. More this year
than last and not much evidence of many others picking them. Last there
seemed to be loads drying up on the bushes.
--
Nikki

1990 Discovery V8i
1985 Range Rover V8
1975 88" Series III 2.25 petrol
1979 Series III Lightweight 2.25 petrol

in article , danthemen at
wrote on 6/8/04 3:54 pm:

>> Never had to buy blackberries. There are loads of them here in England just
>> growing everywhere they can. Where we take the dog is a bit of an open
>> space/nature reserve and the paths have bramble bushes along side them. Its
>> such a shame to see so many wasted each year.
>
> The blackberries are hardly wasted if they are left to supply the (ever
> decreasing) wildlife with a healthy supply of food.
> After all, they need it more than you or I.
> On a more positive note, has anybody ever tried making a pure blackberry
> wine? I made five gallons of the stuff last year, only adding sugar to
> raise the alcohol to 11-12% and after only a year of ageing in the
> barrel it tastes seriously good, if still a little harsh. I really
> recommend it. I know, I know, I am contradicting myself big style but
> there was a HUGE crop last year so I hardly damaged the numbers of
> blackberries at all.
> Please do try it!

There are loads more than last year where we go. What we've picked has
hardly made a dent in the amount still left on the bushes. More this year
than last and not much evidence of many others picking them. Last there
seemed to be loads drying up on the bushes.
--
Nikki

1990 Discovery V8i
1985 Range Rover V8
1975 88" Series III 2.25 petrol
1979 Series III Lightweight 2.25 petrol

in article , Shane Badham at
wrote on 11/8/04 9:20 pm:

>>> "Nikki Cluley" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> We picked 22lbs of blackberries yesterday and thought we'd have a go at
>>>> making some wine. Anyone got any blackberry wine recipes?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>
>>>> Nikki
>> Never had to buy blackberries. There are loads of them here in England just
>> growing everywhere they can. Where we take the dog is a bit of an open
>> space/nature reserve and the paths have bramble bushes along side them. Its
>> such a shame to see so many wasted each year. I'll have to get the other
>> frezzer plugged in somewhere so I can freeze some.
>
> Here in East Devon we seem to have a few ripe berries, many green ones
> and some still in flower. I saw someone picking to day. I dont think
> they would get many. The spring and early summer were very wet. I may
> not bother unless they ripen very soon.
>
> Last year the crop was very good and early too.
>
> --
> Regards, Shane
> "A closed mouth gathers no feet!"
> Website: http://www.wonk.demon.co.uk/

We've just spent a week at Aberystwyth, Wales and on the campsite some of
the hedges had brambles in. They have only just started to turn black and
were much smaller than the ones we've been picking in Leicester.
--
Nikki

1990 Discovery V8i
1985 Range Rover V8
1975 88" Series III 2.25 petrol
1979 Series III Lightweight 2.25 petrol

in article , Shane Badham at
wrote on 11/8/04 9:20 pm:

>>> "Nikki Cluley" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> We picked 22lbs of blackberries yesterday and thought we'd have a go at
>>>> making some wine. Anyone got any blackberry wine recipes?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>
>>>> Nikki
>> Never had to buy blackberries. There are loads of them here in England just
>> growing everywhere they can. Where we take the dog is a bit of an open
>> space/nature reserve and the paths have bramble bushes along side them. Its
>> such a shame to see so many wasted each year. I'll have to get the other
>> frezzer plugged in somewhere so I can freeze some.
>
> Here in East Devon we seem to have a few ripe berries, many green ones
> and some still in flower. I saw someone picking to day. I dont think
> they would get many. The spring and early summer were very wet. I may
> not bother unless they ripen very soon.
>
> Last year the crop was very good and early too.
>
> --
> Regards, Shane
> "A closed mouth gathers no feet!"
> Website: http://www.wonk.demon.co.uk/

We've just spent a week at Aberystwyth, Wales and on the campsite some of
the hedges had brambles in. They have only just started to turn black and
were much smaller than the ones we've been picking in Leicester.
--
Nikki

1990 Discovery V8i
1985 Range Rover V8
1975 88" Series III 2.25 petrol
1979 Series III Lightweight 2.25 petrol

in article , spud at
wrote on 14/8/04 1:58 am:

> Thank You Ray:
>
> I found a thread from 1998 on blackberry wine that was over 100 posts.
> It is quite interesting. Evidently very few under-ripe berrys in a
> batch can make the wine quite astringent and leaving it on the seeds
> too long can do this as well.
>
> Well, since the black berries are free it's obviously false economy to
> scrimp on the quanity. So I will shoot for 30lbs for a 5 gallon
> batch. I've been very careful to pick only the ripest fruit since I
> can check the patches more or less daily.
>
> One of the reasons I asked the original question is, I have ran into
> canes in one location producing berries so rich in flavor they taste
> almost like licorice. Never have bumped into this before.
>
> Thanks
> Steve Vegos
>
I have a book called the River Cottage Cookbook*by*
Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall. ISBN: 0007164092
He said in the book that he thought blackberries take on flavours from their
surroundings. Don't know how true it is, but he was using the same type of
blackberry from different parts of his garden.

Hi Nikki Cluley:

Oh I agree with that completely, Nikki. I don't think there's any
doubt environment will influence flavor. After all we are taking
about wine here, and there's more information compiled about grapes
and environmental influence than I could learn in the remaining
decades of my life!

I think JK's suggestion is an accepted and typical technique to test
and isolate the enviromental influence of wild strains. Literally, to
address exactly what you are pointing out.

Take Care,
Steve Total Noobie
Oregon

>Nikki Cluley > wrote:

>I have a book called the River Cottage Cookbook*by*
>Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall. ISBN: 0007164092
>He said in the book that he thought blackberries take on flavours from their
>surroundings. Don't know how true it is, but he was using the same type of
>blackberry from different parts of his garden.

in article , spud at
wrote on 22/8/04 7:17 am:

> Hi Nikki Cluley:
>
> Oh I agree with that completely, Nikki. I don't think there's any
> doubt environment will influence flavor. After all we are taking
> about wine here, and there's more information compiled about grapes
> and environmental influence than I could learn in the remaining
> decades of my life!
>
> I think JK's suggestion is an accepted and typical technique to test
> and isolate the enviromental influence of wild strains. Literally, to
> address exactly what you are pointing out.
>
> Take Care,
> Steve Total Noobie
> Oregon
>
>> Nikki Cluley > wrote:
>
>> I have a book called the River Cottage Cookbook*by*
>> Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall. ISBN: 0007164092
>> He said in the book that he thought blackberries take on flavours from their
>> surroundings. Don't know how true it is, but he was using the same type of
>> blackberry from different parts of his garden.

We've just been out with the kids and the dog and picked a load more. 20lbs
isn't bad for an hours work. Had to leave loads as we couldn't reach them -
masses of stinging nettles in the way. Loads just turning pink and alot of
green ones still. Will go a little more prepared tomorrow to trample them
down.

Have made bramble jelly with previous pickings and whilst searching through
Bruce's workshop for some empty jars, I came across the sloe gin we made
before christmas. Just filtered it through a pair of tights and had a
glass. Can't see it lasting very long as it was lovely. I've got to go and
collect a load of wine making equipment from Kent sometime soon, as my
Grandma, now 94 has given up making wine out of everything and has plenty in
stock to last until she is 100. She gave me the recipe for the sloe gin and
suggested we try substituting the sloe for blackberries and the gin for
brandy. Anyone tried it?


--
Nikki

In message >, Nikki Cluley
> writes
>Have made bramble jelly with previous pickings and whilst searching
>through Bruce's workshop for some empty jars, I came across the sloe
>gin we made before christmas. Just filtered it through a pair of
>tights and had a glass. Can't see it lasting very long as it was lovely.
>I've got to go and collect a load of wine making equipment from Kent
>sometime soon, as my Grandma, now 94 has given up making wine out
>of everything and has plenty in stock to last until she is 100. She gave
>me the recipe for the sloe gin and suggested we try substituting the
>sloe for blackberries and the gin for brandy. Anyone tried it?

Bit late following this up, but yes, I tried it last year, doing a
direct substitution of blackberries for sloes. Came out a little 'muddy'
tasting, I suspect because the fruit was a little over-ripe, and had
been frozen. Plan to do it again this year with better quality fruit.
Also made crab-apple gin, too - that was spectacular!

cheers,
robin
--
www.newforestartgallery.co.uk
www.badminston.demon.co.uk www.robinsomes.co.uk
www.amazonian-fish.co.uk www.pisces-conservation.com
www.irchouse.demon.co.uk www.blackwell-science.com/southwood
Trust me, I'm a webmaster...

In message >, Nikki Cluley
> writes
>Have made bramble jelly with previous pickings and whilst searching
>through Bruce's workshop for some empty jars, I came across the sloe
>gin we made before christmas. Just filtered it through a pair of
>tights and had a glass. Can't see it lasting very long as it was lovely.
>I've got to go and collect a load of wine making equipment from Kent
>sometime soon, as my Grandma, now 94 has given up making wine out
>of everything and has plenty in stock to last until she is 100. She gave
>me the recipe for the sloe gin and suggested we try substituting the
>sloe for blackberries and the gin for brandy. Anyone tried it?

Bit late following this up, but yes, I tried it last year, doing a
direct substitution of blackberries for sloes. Came out a little 'muddy'
tasting, I suspect because the fruit was a little over-ripe, and had
been frozen. Plan to do it again this year with better quality fruit.
Also made crab-apple gin, too - that was spectacular!

cheers,
robin
--
www.newforestartgallery.co.uk
www.badminston.demon.co.uk www.robinsomes.co.uk
www.amazonian-fish.co.uk www.pisces-conservation.com
www.irchouse.demon.co.uk www.blackwell-science.com/southwood
Trust me, I'm a webmaster...

in article , Robin Somes at
wrote on 29/8/04 9:55 pm:

> In message >, Nikki Cluley
> > writes
>> Have made bramble jelly with previous pickings and whilst searching
>> through Bruce's workshop for some empty jars, I came across the sloe
>> gin we made before christmas. Just filtered it through a pair of
>> tights and had a glass. Can't see it lasting very long as it was lovely.
>> I've got to go and collect a load of wine making equipment from Kent
>> sometime soon, as my Grandma, now 94 has given up making wine out
>> of everything and has plenty in stock to last until she is 100. She gave
>> me the recipe for the sloe gin and suggested we try substituting the
>> sloe for blackberries and the gin for brandy. Anyone tried it?
>
> Bit late following this up, but yes, I tried it last year, doing a
> direct substitution of blackberries for sloes. Came out a little 'muddy'
> tasting, I suspect because the fruit was a little over-ripe, and had
> been frozen. Plan to do it again this year with better quality fruit.
> Also made crab-apple gin, too - that was spectacular!
>
> cheers,
> robin

Made some blackberry brandy the other day, so will be interested in how it
turns out.
Tell me more about the crab apple gin! I went shooting with my husband
yesterday morning and in the far field where he goes were two crab apple
trees with the fruit just strting to fall off them. A couple of shakes got
a load more down and I've got about 15lbs of them. Going to make some crab
apple and rowan jelly, but won't need all of the apples.
--
Nikki

in article , Robin Somes at
wrote on 29/8/04 9:55 pm:

> In message >, Nikki Cluley
> > writes
>> Have made bramble jelly with previous pickings and whilst searching
>> through Bruce's workshop for some empty jars, I came across the sloe
>> gin we made before christmas. Just filtered it through a pair of
>> tights and had a glass. Can't see it lasting very long as it was lovely.
>> I've got to go and collect a load of wine making equipment from Kent
>> sometime soon, as my Grandma, now 94 has given up making wine out
>> of everything and has plenty in stock to last until she is 100. She gave
>> me the recipe for the sloe gin and suggested we try substituting the
>> sloe for blackberries and the gin for brandy. Anyone tried it?
>
> Bit late following this up, but yes, I tried it last year, doing a
> direct substitution of blackberries for sloes. Came out a little 'muddy'
> tasting, I suspect because the fruit was a little over-ripe, and had
> been frozen. Plan to do it again this year with better quality fruit.
> Also made crab-apple gin, too - that was spectacular!
>
> cheers,
> robin

Made some blackberry brandy the other day, so will be interested in how it
turns out.
Tell me more about the crab apple gin! I went shooting with my husband
yesterday morning and in the far field where he goes were two crab apple
trees with the fruit just strting to fall off them. A couple of shakes got
a load more down and I've got about 15lbs of them. Going to make some crab
apple and rowan jelly, but won't need all of the apples.
--
Nikki

In message >, Nikki Cluley
> writes
>> Bit late following this up, but yes, I tried it last year, doing a
>> direct substitution of blackberries for sloes.
<...>
>> Also made crab-apple gin, too - that was spectacular!

>Made some blackberry brandy the other day, so will be interested in how
>it turns out. Tell me more about the crab apple gin! I went shooting
>with my husband yesterday morning and in the far field where he goes
>were two crab apple trees with the fruit just strting to fall off them.
>A couple of shakes got a load more down and I've got about 15lbs of
>them. Going to make some crab apple and rowan jelly, but won't need
>all of the apples.

)) Well, it's pretty much the same principle as sloe or blackberry
gin. The best container I found was a 2-litre cider flagon from
Waitrose. Gather your crab-apples - I prefer to use a mixture of apples
from different trees to get some sort of balance of acidity and so on.
Chop the apples into quarters, or however small they need to be to go
through the neck of the flagon. Leave out any bruised or scabby bits.
When you've filled the flagon, add 6-8 ounces of sugar, and top up with
gin. No need to buy expensive gin, supermarket's own-brand is good
enough, but I prefer to get proper grain-distilled rather than the very
cheapest option.

Leave it, in the dark, for a couple of months, shaking occasionally to
dissolve the sugar. Then empty it, and strain it (I used a succession of
coffee filter papers). Sweeten it a bit more, if need be.

One other thing, it's best stored in the dark, because it will darken as
it ages. And then one other thing after that. It does start off looking
(how can I put this delicately) a certain shade of yellow, which might
make it less desirable to give away as a present to people. All the more
for you, then...

cheers,
robin
--
www.newforestartgallery.co.uk
www.badminston.demon.co.uk www.robinsomes.co.uk
www.amazonian-fish.co.uk www.pisces-conservation.com
www.irchouse.demon.co.uk www.blackwell-science.com/southwood
Trust me, I'm a webmaster...

In message >, Nikki Cluley
> writes
>> Bit late following this up, but yes, I tried it last year, doing a
>> direct substitution of blackberries for sloes.
<...>
>> Also made crab-apple gin, too - that was spectacular!

>Made some blackberry brandy the other day, so will be interested in how
>it turns out. Tell me more about the crab apple gin! I went shooting
>with my husband yesterday morning and in the far field where he goes
>were two crab apple trees with the fruit just strting to fall off them.
>A couple of shakes got a load more down and I've got about 15lbs of
>them. Going to make some crab apple and rowan jelly, but won't need
>all of the apples.

)) Well, it's pretty much the same principle as sloe or blackberry
gin. The best container I found was a 2-litre cider flagon from
Waitrose. Gather your crab-apples - I prefer to use a mixture of apples
from different trees to get some sort of balance of acidity and so on.
Chop the apples into quarters, or however small they need to be to go
through the neck of the flagon. Leave out any bruised or scabby bits.
When you've filled the flagon, add 6-8 ounces of sugar, and top up with
gin. No need to buy expensive gin, supermarket's own-brand is good
enough, but I prefer to get proper grain-distilled rather than the very
cheapest option.

Leave it, in the dark, for a couple of months, shaking occasionally to
dissolve the sugar. Then empty it, and strain it (I used a succession of
coffee filter papers). Sweeten it a bit more, if need be.

One other thing, it's best stored in the dark, because it will darken as
it ages. And then one other thing after that. It does start off looking
(how can I put this delicately) a certain shade of yellow, which might
make it less desirable to give away as a present to people. All the more
for you, then...

cheers,
robin
--
www.newforestartgallery.co.uk
www.badminston.demon.co.uk www.robinsomes.co.uk
www.amazonian-fish.co.uk www.pisces-conservation.com
www.irchouse.demon.co.uk www.blackwell-science.com/southwood
Trust me, I'm a webmaster...