Winemaking (rec.crafts.winemaking) Discussion of the process, recipes, tips, techniques and general exchange of lore on the process, methods and history of wine making. Includes traditional grape wines, sparkling wines & champagnes.

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
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Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

Hello everyone,

While reading r.c.w. via Google groups today, I noticed the following
link on the right hand side of the screen:
http://www.1000oaksbarrel.com/index.html

They sell very small barrels (1, 3, 5, 10, & 20 Liters) at very
reasonable prices. These seem like an attractive way for the home
winemaker to try barrel aging, without the expense or storage
difficulties of a traditional large barrel. And if it doesn't work
out, the investment is not too painful.

I know that the smaller barrels will impart a strong oak flavor due to
the proportionally large surface area exposed to the wine. But other
than this caveat, does anyone have a comment on these products from a
quality perspective?

Thanks for your input. Cheers-

Roger
Quinta do Placer
  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

What about these, the referbished ones?
http://www.morebeer.com/index.html?p...php3&pid=WE412



> They sell very small barrels (1, 3, 5, 10, & 20 Liters) at very
> reasonable prices. These seem like an attractive way for the home
> winemaker to try barrel aging, without the expense or storage
> difficulties of a traditional large barrel. And if it doesn't work
> out, the investment is not too painful.
>
> I know that the smaller barrels will impart a strong oak flavor due to
> the proportionally large surface area exposed to the wine. But other
> than this caveat, does anyone have a comment on these products from a
> quality perspective?
>
> Thanks for your input. Cheers-
>
> Roger
> Quinta do Placer
>



  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

What about these, the referbished ones?
http://www.morebeer.com/index.html?p...php3&pid=WE412



> They sell very small barrels (1, 3, 5, 10, & 20 Liters) at very
> reasonable prices. These seem like an attractive way for the home
> winemaker to try barrel aging, without the expense or storage
> difficulties of a traditional large barrel. And if it doesn't work
> out, the investment is not too painful.
>
> I know that the smaller barrels will impart a strong oak flavor due to
> the proportionally large surface area exposed to the wine. But other
> than this caveat, does anyone have a comment on these products from a
> quality perspective?
>
> Thanks for your input. Cheers-
>
> Roger
> Quinta do Placer
>



  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
seb
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

> > They sell very small barrels (1, 3, 5, 10, & 20 Liters) at very
> > reasonable prices. These seem like an attractive way for the home
> > winemaker to try barrel aging, without the expense or storage
> > difficulties of a traditional large barrel. And if it doesn't work
> > out, the investment is not too painful.



I don't think it worth the investment. A small barrel like 20 Liters
and smaller will impart lot's of oak in small amount of time. It mean
that you will not be able to let your wine really age in the barrel,
only a short immersion ( except of course when the barrel will be
older ). Thus, you will not get all the benefit of barrel aging like
micro-oxygenation. You are better either buy a larger barrel like 55
liter and bigger or buy good quality oak bean or staves like
www.stavin.com

Séb
  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
seb
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

> > They sell very small barrels (1, 3, 5, 10, & 20 Liters) at very
> > reasonable prices. These seem like an attractive way for the home
> > winemaker to try barrel aging, without the expense or storage
> > difficulties of a traditional large barrel. And if it doesn't work
> > out, the investment is not too painful.



I don't think it worth the investment. A small barrel like 20 Liters
and smaller will impart lot's of oak in small amount of time. It mean
that you will not be able to let your wine really age in the barrel,
only a short immersion ( except of course when the barrel will be
older ). Thus, you will not get all the benefit of barrel aging like
micro-oxygenation. You are better either buy a larger barrel like 55
liter and bigger or buy good quality oak bean or staves like
www.stavin.com

Séb


  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Joe Yudelson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

Hi: I cannot believe that a very small barrel is practical. Evem tje 20L
barrel is too small. You get too great a surface area (of the barrel) for
the amount of wine. Also, barrels must be conditioned properly and cleaned
and sterilized thoroughly. If oak is what you want for wine preparation try
oak chips.

Joe
> wrote in message
om...
> Hello everyone,
>
> While reading r.c.w. via Google groups today, I noticed the following
> link on the right hand side of the screen:
> http://www.1000oaksbarrel.com/index.html
>
> They sell very small barrels (1, 3, 5, 10, & 20 Liters) at very
> reasonable prices. These seem like an attractive way for the home
> winemaker to try barrel aging, without the expense or storage
> difficulties of a traditional large barrel. And if it doesn't work
> out, the investment is not too painful.
>
> I know that the smaller barrels will impart a strong oak flavor due to
> the proportionally large surface area exposed to the wine. But other
> than this caveat, does anyone have a comment on these products from a
> quality perspective?
>
> Thanks for your input. Cheers-
>
> Roger
> Quinta do Placer



  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Joe Yudelson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

Hi: I cannot believe that a very small barrel is practical. Evem tje 20L
barrel is too small. You get too great a surface area (of the barrel) for
the amount of wine. Also, barrels must be conditioned properly and cleaned
and sterilized thoroughly. If oak is what you want for wine preparation try
oak chips.

Joe
> wrote in message
om...
> Hello everyone,
>
> While reading r.c.w. via Google groups today, I noticed the following
> link on the right hand side of the screen:
> http://www.1000oaksbarrel.com/index.html
>
> They sell very small barrels (1, 3, 5, 10, & 20 Liters) at very
> reasonable prices. These seem like an attractive way for the home
> winemaker to try barrel aging, without the expense or storage
> difficulties of a traditional large barrel. And if it doesn't work
> out, the investment is not too painful.
>
> I know that the smaller barrels will impart a strong oak flavor due to
> the proportionally large surface area exposed to the wine. But other
> than this caveat, does anyone have a comment on these products from a
> quality perspective?
>
> Thanks for your input. Cheers-
>
> Roger
> Quinta do Placer



  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Joe Yudelson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

Hi: I cannot believe that a very small barrel is practical. Evem tje 20L
barrel is too small. You get too great a surface area (of the barrel) for
the amount of wine. Also, barrels must be conditioned properly and cleaned
and sterilized thoroughly. If oak is what you want for wine preparation try
oak chips.

Joe
> wrote in message
om...
> Hello everyone,
>
> While reading r.c.w. via Google groups today, I noticed the following
> link on the right hand side of the screen:
> http://www.1000oaksbarrel.com/index.html
>
> They sell very small barrels (1, 3, 5, 10, & 20 Liters) at very
> reasonable prices. These seem like an attractive way for the home
> winemaker to try barrel aging, without the expense or storage
> difficulties of a traditional large barrel. And if it doesn't work
> out, the investment is not too painful.
>
> I know that the smaller barrels will impart a strong oak flavor due to
> the proportionally large surface area exposed to the wine. But other
> than this caveat, does anyone have a comment on these products from a
> quality perspective?
>
> Thanks for your input. Cheers-
>
> Roger
> Quinta do Placer



  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Joe Sallustio
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

Roger,
I got a 20L as a gift and intend to use it, but it would not have been
my choice for the reasons others stated. Mine is untoasted too, I
would prefer at least a medium toast.

I was thinking of using the 12.7 gallon Hungarian before I got this, I
would have gone for that or a 30 gallon if I were buying one. 50
gallons is too much wine for us, it's not practical to my situation.

I will let you know how this little one works out. It will take a
while, it's dry right now. I intend to cycle several wines through it
and keep it wet with wine year round if possible. I'm probably going
to ferment a white in it to rip out some of the initial oak, then
cycle the reds through. If the white is too oaky it won't be an issue,
I'll blend it with others if need be.

Joe





wrote in message . com>...
> Hello everyone,
>
> While reading r.c.w. via Google groups today, I noticed the following
> link on the right hand side of the screen:
>
http://www.1000oaksbarrel.com/index.html
>
> They sell very small barrels (1, 3, 5, 10, & 20 Liters) at very
> reasonable prices. These seem like an attractive way for the home
> winemaker to try barrel aging, without the expense or storage
> difficulties of a traditional large barrel. And if it doesn't work
> out, the investment is not too painful.
>
> I know that the smaller barrels will impart a strong oak flavor due to
> the proportionally large surface area exposed to the wine. But other
> than this caveat, does anyone have a comment on these products from a
> quality perspective?
>
> Thanks for your input. Cheers-
>
> Roger
> Quinta do Placer

  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Joe Sallustio
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

Roger,
I got a 20L as a gift and intend to use it, but it would not have been
my choice for the reasons others stated. Mine is untoasted too, I
would prefer at least a medium toast.

I was thinking of using the 12.7 gallon Hungarian before I got this, I
would have gone for that or a 30 gallon if I were buying one. 50
gallons is too much wine for us, it's not practical to my situation.

I will let you know how this little one works out. It will take a
while, it's dry right now. I intend to cycle several wines through it
and keep it wet with wine year round if possible. I'm probably going
to ferment a white in it to rip out some of the initial oak, then
cycle the reds through. If the white is too oaky it won't be an issue,
I'll blend it with others if need be.

Joe





wrote in message . com>...
> Hello everyone,
>
> While reading r.c.w. via Google groups today, I noticed the following
> link on the right hand side of the screen:
>
http://www.1000oaksbarrel.com/index.html
>
> They sell very small barrels (1, 3, 5, 10, & 20 Liters) at very
> reasonable prices. These seem like an attractive way for the home
> winemaker to try barrel aging, without the expense or storage
> difficulties of a traditional large barrel. And if it doesn't work
> out, the investment is not too painful.
>
> I know that the smaller barrels will impart a strong oak flavor due to
> the proportionally large surface area exposed to the wine. But other
> than this caveat, does anyone have a comment on these products from a
> quality perspective?
>
> Thanks for your input. Cheers-
>
> Roger
> Quinta do Placer



  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Joe Sallustio
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

Roger,
I got a 20L as a gift and intend to use it, but it would not have been
my choice for the reasons others stated. Mine is untoasted too, I
would prefer at least a medium toast.

I was thinking of using the 12.7 gallon Hungarian before I got this, I
would have gone for that or a 30 gallon if I were buying one. 50
gallons is too much wine for us, it's not practical to my situation.

I will let you know how this little one works out. It will take a
while, it's dry right now. I intend to cycle several wines through it
and keep it wet with wine year round if possible. I'm probably going
to ferment a white in it to rip out some of the initial oak, then
cycle the reds through. If the white is too oaky it won't be an issue,
I'll blend it with others if need be.

Joe





wrote in message . com>...
> Hello everyone,
>
> While reading r.c.w. via Google groups today, I noticed the following
> link on the right hand side of the screen:
>
http://www.1000oaksbarrel.com/index.html
>
> They sell very small barrels (1, 3, 5, 10, & 20 Liters) at very
> reasonable prices. These seem like an attractive way for the home
> winemaker to try barrel aging, without the expense or storage
> difficulties of a traditional large barrel. And if it doesn't work
> out, the investment is not too painful.
>
> I know that the smaller barrels will impart a strong oak flavor due to
> the proportionally large surface area exposed to the wine. But other
> than this caveat, does anyone have a comment on these products from a
> quality perspective?
>
> Thanks for your input. Cheers-
>
> Roger
> Quinta do Placer

  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tom S
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions


> wrote in message
om...
> Hello everyone,
>
> While reading r.c.w. via Google groups today, I noticed the following
> link on the right hand side of the screen:
> http://www.1000oaksbarrel.com/index.html
>
> They sell very small barrels (1, 3, 5, 10, & 20 Liters) at very
> reasonable prices. These seem like an attractive way for the home
> winemaker to try barrel aging, without the expense or storage
> difficulties of a traditional large barrel. And if it doesn't work
> out, the investment is not too painful.
>
> I know that the smaller barrels will impart a strong oak flavor due to
> the proportionally large surface area exposed to the wine. But other
> than this caveat, does anyone have a comment on these products from a
> quality perspective?


They look OK from a quality standpoint, but that's only a guess without
checking them out in person.

From a _practical_ point of view, anything less than about 30 liters doesn't
make much sense to me. Also they're probably American oak, which I wouldn't
use on my whites (although some do so successfully). At least they aren't
waxed on the inside.

They mention using soda ash or Barolkleen to clean and/or "condition" them.
That's a bad thing to do to good wood. You end up throwing away that
expensive wood flavor and weakening the wood itself. Just imagine what your
_hands_ would be like if you soaked them for a couple of days in soda ash
solution!

Tom S


  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
24brix
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

My experience with the refurbished barrels from morebeer.com is rather
good. The used barrels don't impart too much oak, I have been able to
leave my Cab Franc in the barrel for as long as 9 mos. My mistakes
was not cleaning the barrels properly after the 1st use. I have since
purchased proxyclean to clean the barrels.

This year I have a new barrel, 30 gallon from World Cooperage in the
great state of Missouri! I recently drove from Popular Bluff in
Missouri past Lebanon towards Springfield. Saw a large yard of aging
staves. Great site!

Michael
Amigoni Vineyards
Centerview, MO
www.amigoni.com
  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
24brix
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

My experience with the refurbished barrels from morebeer.com is rather
good. The used barrels don't impart too much oak, I have been able to
leave my Cab Franc in the barrel for as long as 9 mos. My mistakes
was not cleaning the barrels properly after the 1st use. I have since
purchased proxyclean to clean the barrels.

This year I have a new barrel, 30 gallon from World Cooperage in the
great state of Missouri! I recently drove from Popular Bluff in
Missouri past Lebanon towards Springfield. Saw a large yard of aging
staves. Great site!

Michael
Amigoni Vineyards
Centerview, MO
www.amigoni.com
  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ray
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

It is my understanding that oak barrels do more than add oak to wine. The
breathing is very important to the overall effect. If you can only leave
the wine in these barrels for a very short period of time, you would
probably get the same effect from oak cubes and it would be cheaper.

Ray

> wrote in message
om...
> Hello everyone,
>
> While reading r.c.w. via Google groups today, I noticed the following
> link on the right hand side of the screen:
> http://www.1000oaksbarrel.com/index.html
>
> They sell very small barrels (1, 3, 5, 10, & 20 Liters) at very
> reasonable prices. These seem like an attractive way for the home
> winemaker to try barrel aging, without the expense or storage
> difficulties of a traditional large barrel. And if it doesn't work
> out, the investment is not too painful.
>
> I know that the smaller barrels will impart a strong oak flavor due to
> the proportionally large surface area exposed to the wine. But other
> than this caveat, does anyone have a comment on these products from a
> quality perspective?
>
> Thanks for your input. Cheers-
>
> Roger
> Quinta do Placer





  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ray
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

It is my understanding that oak barrels do more than add oak to wine. The
breathing is very important to the overall effect. If you can only leave
the wine in these barrels for a very short period of time, you would
probably get the same effect from oak cubes and it would be cheaper.

Ray

> wrote in message
om...
> Hello everyone,
>
> While reading r.c.w. via Google groups today, I noticed the following
> link on the right hand side of the screen:
> http://www.1000oaksbarrel.com/index.html
>
> They sell very small barrels (1, 3, 5, 10, & 20 Liters) at very
> reasonable prices. These seem like an attractive way for the home
> winemaker to try barrel aging, without the expense or storage
> difficulties of a traditional large barrel. And if it doesn't work
> out, the investment is not too painful.
>
> I know that the smaller barrels will impart a strong oak flavor due to
> the proportionally large surface area exposed to the wine. But other
> than this caveat, does anyone have a comment on these products from a
> quality perspective?
>
> Thanks for your input. Cheers-
>
> Roger
> Quinta do Placer



  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Paul E. Lehmann
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

Ray wrote:

> It is my understanding that oak barrels do more than add oak to wine. The
> breathing is very important to the overall effect. If you can only leave
> the wine in these barrels for a very short period of time, you would
> probably get the same effect from oak cubes and it would be cheaper.
>
> Ray


This has not been my experience with a 10 gallon barrel. The wine is MUCH
better from the barrel than with just oak cubes in a glass carboy. My
barrel is about 4 years old now and I cycle wine through every three
months. I check for full and top up every two weeks. It has never been
empty longer than what it takes to empty the barrel and bottle and re-fill.
It is just now getting to the point that I am not over oaking my wines.
When it is completely neutral, I may add a few oak cubes to the barrel but
even if I don't, I think several months in barrel makes a big difference.
  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Paul E. Lehmann
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

Ray wrote:

> It is my understanding that oak barrels do more than add oak to wine. The
> breathing is very important to the overall effect. If you can only leave
> the wine in these barrels for a very short period of time, you would
> probably get the same effect from oak cubes and it would be cheaper.
>
> Ray


This has not been my experience with a 10 gallon barrel. The wine is MUCH
better from the barrel than with just oak cubes in a glass carboy. My
barrel is about 4 years old now and I cycle wine through every three
months. I check for full and top up every two weeks. It has never been
empty longer than what it takes to empty the barrel and bottle and re-fill.
It is just now getting to the point that I am not over oaking my wines.
When it is completely neutral, I may add a few oak cubes to the barrel but
even if I don't, I think several months in barrel makes a big difference.
  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tom S
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

You guys are saying the same thing, but making it look like you're in
disagreement! (Read below.)

Tom S

"Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
news
> Ray wrote:
>
> > It is my understanding that oak barrels do more than add oak to wine.

The
> > breathing is very important to the overall effect. If you can only

leave
> > the wine in these barrels for a very short period of time, you would
> > probably get the same effect from oak cubes and it would be cheaper.
> >
> > Ray

>
> This has not been my experience with a 10 gallon barrel. The wine is MUCH
> better from the barrel than with just oak cubes in a glass carboy. My
> barrel is about 4 years old now and I cycle wine through every three
> months. I check for full and top up every two weeks. It has never been
> empty longer than what it takes to empty the barrel and bottle and

re-fill.
> It is just now getting to the point that I am not over oaking my wines.
> When it is completely neutral, I may add a few oak cubes to the barrel but
> even if I don't, I think several months in barrel makes a big difference.



  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tom S
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

You guys are saying the same thing, but making it look like you're in
disagreement! (Read below.)

Tom S

"Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
news
> Ray wrote:
>
> > It is my understanding that oak barrels do more than add oak to wine.

The
> > breathing is very important to the overall effect. If you can only

leave
> > the wine in these barrels for a very short period of time, you would
> > probably get the same effect from oak cubes and it would be cheaper.
> >
> > Ray

>
> This has not been my experience with a 10 gallon barrel. The wine is MUCH
> better from the barrel than with just oak cubes in a glass carboy. My
> barrel is about 4 years old now and I cycle wine through every three
> months. I check for full and top up every two weeks. It has never been
> empty longer than what it takes to empty the barrel and bottle and

re-fill.
> It is just now getting to the point that I am not over oaking my wines.
> When it is completely neutral, I may add a few oak cubes to the barrel but
> even if I don't, I think several months in barrel makes a big difference.





  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
Paul E. Lehmann
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

Tom S wrote:

> You guys are saying the same thing, but making it look like you're in
> disagreement! (Read below.)
>
> Tom S
>
> "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
> news
>> Ray wrote:
>>
>> > It is my understanding that oak barrels do more than add oak to wine.

> The
>> > breathing is very important to the overall effect. If you can only

> leave
>> > the wine in these barrels for a very short period of time, you would
>> > probably get the same effect from oak cubes and it would be cheaper.
>> >
>> > Ray

>>
>> This has not been my experience with a 10 gallon barrel. The wine is
>> MUCH
>> better from the barrel than with just oak cubes in a glass carboy. My
>> barrel is about 4 years old now and I cycle wine through every three
>> months. I check for full and top up every two weeks. It has never been
>> empty longer than what it takes to empty the barrel and bottle and

> re-fill.
>> It is just now getting to the point that I am not over oaking my wines.
>> When it is completely neutral, I may add a few oak cubes to the barrel
>> but even if I don't, I think several months in barrel makes a big
>> difference.


I think the question is whether a "short" amount of time in a small barrel
is enough to add beneficial results other than just oaking. I believe it
is. I would suggest, however, that anyone thinking about getting a small
barrel to get at least a 15 gallon size - and - have lots of wine
available so that you can cycle your aging wine through the barrel without
having a lot of time between fills so that the barrel is not empty for long
periods of time. This will help extract some of the oak over a period of
time so the wines will not be overly oaky.
  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Paul E. Lehmann
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

Tom S wrote:

> You guys are saying the same thing, but making it look like you're in
> disagreement! (Read below.)
>
> Tom S
>
> "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
> news
>> Ray wrote:
>>
>> > It is my understanding that oak barrels do more than add oak to wine.

> The
>> > breathing is very important to the overall effect. If you can only

> leave
>> > the wine in these barrels for a very short period of time, you would
>> > probably get the same effect from oak cubes and it would be cheaper.
>> >
>> > Ray

>>
>> This has not been my experience with a 10 gallon barrel. The wine is
>> MUCH
>> better from the barrel than with just oak cubes in a glass carboy. My
>> barrel is about 4 years old now and I cycle wine through every three
>> months. I check for full and top up every two weeks. It has never been
>> empty longer than what it takes to empty the barrel and bottle and

> re-fill.
>> It is just now getting to the point that I am not over oaking my wines.
>> When it is completely neutral, I may add a few oak cubes to the barrel
>> but even if I don't, I think several months in barrel makes a big
>> difference.


I think the question is whether a "short" amount of time in a small barrel
is enough to add beneficial results other than just oaking. I believe it
is. I would suggest, however, that anyone thinking about getting a small
barrel to get at least a 15 gallon size - and - have lots of wine
available so that you can cycle your aging wine through the barrel without
having a lot of time between fills so that the barrel is not empty for long
periods of time. This will help extract some of the oak over a period of
time so the wines will not be overly oaky.
  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

I would like to thank everyone for their thoughtful replies. I am on
the fence here, but even though the barrels are tiny and probably
impractical, they might represent a good learning opportunity for an
amateur. I am experienced so far only with oak chips, and while I am
not dissatisfied with the results, I am curious about the next natural
step in the progression.

The investment, storage, and care of a large barrel are a lot to take
on with no prior experience. A tiny barrel allows very short usage
time at first, but if the winemaker understands that, he can manage
things correctly. Over time, the small barrel would have its flavor
depleted and would allow longer storage times, and the associated
micro-oxidation and flavor concentration benefits could potentially be
experienced.

I realize that to people making a hundred gallons of wine annually,
these little barrels look like toys. But perhaps they can be viewed as
a learning step towards something more substantial... just like kits
lead to juice and eventually to lugs of grapes.

(Plus the darn thing would fit on a shelf!)

Thanks again -
Roger
Quinta do Placer
  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

I would like to thank everyone for their thoughtful replies. I am on
the fence here, but even though the barrels are tiny and probably
impractical, they might represent a good learning opportunity for an
amateur. I am experienced so far only with oak chips, and while I am
not dissatisfied with the results, I am curious about the next natural
step in the progression.

The investment, storage, and care of a large barrel are a lot to take
on with no prior experience. A tiny barrel allows very short usage
time at first, but if the winemaker understands that, he can manage
things correctly. Over time, the small barrel would have its flavor
depleted and would allow longer storage times, and the associated
micro-oxidation and flavor concentration benefits could potentially be
experienced.

I realize that to people making a hundred gallons of wine annually,
these little barrels look like toys. But perhaps they can be viewed as
a learning step towards something more substantial... just like kits
lead to juice and eventually to lugs of grapes.

(Plus the darn thing would fit on a shelf!)

Thanks again -
Roger
Quinta do Placer
  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ray
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions


"Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
news
> Ray wrote:
>
> > It is my understanding that oak barrels do more than add oak to wine.

The
> > breathing is very important to the overall effect. If you can only

leave
> > the wine in these barrels for a very short period of time, you would
> > probably get the same effect from oak cubes and it would be cheaper.
> >
> > Ray

>
> This has not been my experience with a 10 gallon barrel. The wine is MUCH
> better from the barrel than with just oak cubes in a glass carboy. My
> barrel is about 4 years old now and I cycle wine through every three
> months. I check for full and top up every two weeks. It has never been
> empty longer than what it takes to empty the barrel and bottle and

re-fill.
> It is just now getting to the point that I am not over oaking my wines.
> When it is completely neutral, I may add a few oak cubes to the barrel but
> even if I don't, I think several months in barrel makes a big difference.


Yea, Paul. I agree. He was talking about 1, 3, and 5 gal barrels. The
cycle time in these would be so short there would be no breathing and I was
suggesting that he would get the same effects with oak cubes and glass.
With 10 and larger, the cycle time would probably be long enough to be
beneficial. Since his range of barrel sizes extended up to 20 gal. I should
have commented on that.

Ray




  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ray
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions


"Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
news
> Ray wrote:
>
> > It is my understanding that oak barrels do more than add oak to wine.

The
> > breathing is very important to the overall effect. If you can only

leave
> > the wine in these barrels for a very short period of time, you would
> > probably get the same effect from oak cubes and it would be cheaper.
> >
> > Ray

>
> This has not been my experience with a 10 gallon barrel. The wine is MUCH
> better from the barrel than with just oak cubes in a glass carboy. My
> barrel is about 4 years old now and I cycle wine through every three
> months. I check for full and top up every two weeks. It has never been
> empty longer than what it takes to empty the barrel and bottle and

re-fill.
> It is just now getting to the point that I am not over oaking my wines.
> When it is completely neutral, I may add a few oak cubes to the barrel but
> even if I don't, I think several months in barrel makes a big difference.


Yea, Paul. I agree. He was talking about 1, 3, and 5 gal barrels. The
cycle time in these would be so short there would be no breathing and I was
suggesting that he would get the same effects with oak cubes and glass.
With 10 and larger, the cycle time would probably be long enough to be
beneficial. Since his range of barrel sizes extended up to 20 gal. I should
have commented on that.

Ray


  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dave Stacy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

Roger,

In reference to your last paragraph:

They're not toys or inferior, they are just small.
We have so many 225L barrels now that we use a computer program to
track them.
Having said that,
I still have my very first the little 5 gallon barrel. I'm fond of it,
it was a great teacher. I'll never part with it.

Dave Stacy

On 4 Aug 2004 06:14:17 -0700, wrote:

>I would like to thank everyone for their thoughtful replies. I am on
>the fence here, but even though the barrels are tiny and probably
>impractical, they might represent a good learning opportunity for an
>amateur. I am experienced so far only with oak chips, and while I am
>not dissatisfied with the results, I am curious about the next natural
>step in the progression.
>
>The investment, storage, and care of a large barrel are a lot to take
>on with no prior experience. A tiny barrel allows very short usage
>time at first, but if the winemaker understands that, he can manage
>things correctly. Over time, the small barrel would have its flavor
>depleted and would allow longer storage times, and the associated
>micro-oxidation and flavor concentration benefits could potentially be
>experienced.
>
>I realize that to people making a hundred gallons of wine annually,
>these little barrels look like toys. But perhaps they can be viewed as
>a learning step towards something more substantial... just like kits
>lead to juice and eventually to lugs of grapes.
>
>(Plus the darn thing would fit on a shelf!)
>
>Thanks again -
>Roger
>Quinta do Placer


  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dave Stacy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

Roger,

In reference to your last paragraph:

They're not toys or inferior, they are just small.
We have so many 225L barrels now that we use a computer program to
track them.
Having said that,
I still have my very first the little 5 gallon barrel. I'm fond of it,
it was a great teacher. I'll never part with it.

Dave Stacy

On 4 Aug 2004 06:14:17 -0700, wrote:

>I would like to thank everyone for their thoughtful replies. I am on
>the fence here, but even though the barrels are tiny and probably
>impractical, they might represent a good learning opportunity for an
>amateur. I am experienced so far only with oak chips, and while I am
>not dissatisfied with the results, I am curious about the next natural
>step in the progression.
>
>The investment, storage, and care of a large barrel are a lot to take
>on with no prior experience. A tiny barrel allows very short usage
>time at first, but if the winemaker understands that, he can manage
>things correctly. Over time, the small barrel would have its flavor
>depleted and would allow longer storage times, and the associated
>micro-oxidation and flavor concentration benefits could potentially be
>experienced.
>
>I realize that to people making a hundred gallons of wine annually,
>these little barrels look like toys. But perhaps they can be viewed as
>a learning step towards something more substantial... just like kits
>lead to juice and eventually to lugs of grapes.
>
>(Plus the darn thing would fit on a shelf!)
>
>Thanks again -
>Roger
>Quinta do Placer


  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
Roger Placer
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

> I still have my very first the little 5 gallon barrel. I'm fond of it,
> it was a great teacher. I'll never part with it.


Dave, I completely 'get' this sentiment and I have numerous precious items
from the nascent stages of the different realms of my life. Thanks for
mentioning this.

Roger


  #30 (permalink)   Report Post  
Roger Placer
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

> I still have my very first the little 5 gallon barrel. I'm fond of it,
> it was a great teacher. I'll never part with it.


Dave, I completely 'get' this sentiment and I have numerous precious items
from the nascent stages of the different realms of my life. Thanks for
mentioning this.

Roger




  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dave Stacy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

Glad to see someone still has a sense of romance, sentimentalism,
whatever.

Let us know what you end up doing.

Dave

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 22:16:01 -0400, "Roger Placer" >
wrote:

>> I still have my very first the little 5 gallon barrel. I'm fond of it,
>> it was a great teacher. I'll never part with it.

>
>Dave, I completely 'get' this sentiment and I have numerous precious items
>from the nascent stages of the different realms of my life. Thanks for
>mentioning this.
>
>Roger
>


  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tom S
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions


"Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
...
> I think the question is whether a "short" amount of time in a small barrel
> is enough to add beneficial results other than just oaking. I believe it
> is. I would suggest, however, that anyone thinking about getting a small
> barrel to get at least a 15 gallon size - and - have lots of wine
> available so that you can cycle your aging wine through the barrel without
> having a lot of time between fills so that the barrel is not empty for

long
> periods of time.


That last part is particularly important. Air is the enemy of wine _and_
barrels that have had wine stored in them. SO2 is your best ally in the
interim.

FWIW, I'd say you can go as small as 5 gallons and still get perceptible
benefit from barrel aging - as opposed to wood infusion. It depends a lot
on the age of the barrel, the specific wine and your taste for wood. A big
red in a well-extracted small barrel, perhaps with a few oak "beans" thrown
in for flavor, might easily become *excellent* over the course of 6-12
months.

Tom S
www.chateauburbank.com


  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tom S
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

"Ray" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
> news
> > Ray wrote:
> >
> > > It is my understanding that oak barrels do more than add oak to wine.

> The
> > > breathing is very important to the overall effect. If you can only

> leave
> > > the wine in these barrels for a very short period of time, you would
> > > probably get the same effect from oak cubes and it would be cheaper.
> > >
> > > Ray

> >
> > This has not been my experience with a 10 gallon barrel. The wine is

MUCH
> > better from the barrel than with just oak cubes in a glass carboy. My
> > barrel is about 4 years old now and I cycle wine through every three
> > months. I check for full and top up every two weeks. It has never been
> > empty longer than what it takes to empty the barrel and bottle and

> re-fill.
> > It is just now getting to the point that I am not over oaking my wines.
> > When it is completely neutral, I may add a few oak cubes to the

barrel...

I _highly_ recommend that you add French oak cubes/beans back, or at least a
combination of French with some American oak.

I did a long term (>15 years) study on this, with identical wines aged
separately in new French and American (fire bent) oak barrels. The American
oak aged wine smelled the best, but the French oak aged wine _tasted_ best.

> > I think several months in barrel makes a big difference.


Definitely!

Tom S
www.chateauburbank.com


  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tom S
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

"Ray" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote in message
> news
> > Ray wrote:
> >
> > > It is my understanding that oak barrels do more than add oak to wine.

> The
> > > breathing is very important to the overall effect. If you can only

> leave
> > > the wine in these barrels for a very short period of time, you would
> > > probably get the same effect from oak cubes and it would be cheaper.
> > >
> > > Ray

> >
> > This has not been my experience with a 10 gallon barrel. The wine is

MUCH
> > better from the barrel than with just oak cubes in a glass carboy. My
> > barrel is about 4 years old now and I cycle wine through every three
> > months. I check for full and top up every two weeks. It has never been
> > empty longer than what it takes to empty the barrel and bottle and

> re-fill.
> > It is just now getting to the point that I am not over oaking my wines.
> > When it is completely neutral, I may add a few oak cubes to the

barrel...

I _highly_ recommend that you add French oak cubes/beans back, or at least a
combination of French with some American oak.

I did a long term (>15 years) study on this, with identical wines aged
separately in new French and American (fire bent) oak barrels. The American
oak aged wine smelled the best, but the French oak aged wine _tasted_ best.

> > I think several months in barrel makes a big difference.


Definitely!

Tom S
www.chateauburbank.com


  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
sgbrix
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

"Tom S" > wrote in message >...

---snip

> I did a long term (>15 years) study on this, with identical wines aged
> separately in new French and American (fire bent) oak barrels. The American
> oak aged wine smelled the best, but the French oak aged wine _tasted_ best.
>

---snip

It is interesting that you also have noticed the smell of American
oak. My experiment is going something like this. 1 Gibbs Bros 10g
(3rd use) I have Zinfandel and am topping up with exactly the same
wine (bottled). Another of the same make and age I have added Syrah as
a topping wine.

On the floor I have 2 – 5g jugs with the same Zin, one never added any
oak to, but the other I put in a mix 50/50 american/French chips.
There is no question that the wines aged in the barrels are by far
more superior. Thicker somehow, which I believe is because of the
evaporation of the wine.

I also have a French 13g barrel with the same Zin. This wine taste
better, but the smell from the wines in the American Gibbs Bros smell
better. All the wine was original from the same fermentation vat.

My intention is to dump the wines in the carboys into barrels as soon
as one is empty. I also asked Seguin to make up some mix American ends
to stave of French oak barrels. I think this might be the way to go.
I think for reds which is what I concentrate making, the wine needs a
touch of American oak as well.

SG Brix


  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
sgbrix
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

"Tom S" > wrote in message >...

---snip

> I did a long term (>15 years) study on this, with identical wines aged
> separately in new French and American (fire bent) oak barrels. The American
> oak aged wine smelled the best, but the French oak aged wine _tasted_ best.
>

---snip

It is interesting that you also have noticed the smell of American
oak. My experiment is going something like this. 1 Gibbs Bros 10g
(3rd use) I have Zinfandel and am topping up with exactly the same
wine (bottled). Another of the same make and age I have added Syrah as
a topping wine.

On the floor I have 2 – 5g jugs with the same Zin, one never added any
oak to, but the other I put in a mix 50/50 american/French chips.
There is no question that the wines aged in the barrels are by far
more superior. Thicker somehow, which I believe is because of the
evaporation of the wine.

I also have a French 13g barrel with the same Zin. This wine taste
better, but the smell from the wines in the American Gibbs Bros smell
better. All the wine was original from the same fermentation vat.

My intention is to dump the wines in the carboys into barrels as soon
as one is empty. I also asked Seguin to make up some mix American ends
to stave of French oak barrels. I think this might be the way to go.
I think for reds which is what I concentrate making, the wine needs a
touch of American oak as well.

SG Brix
  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ed Marks
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

Michael,

I'm curious which refurbished barrel (size and type) you got. These really
interest me because I'd like to try barrel aging but don't produce enough to
justify a larger barrel and I don't want to have to run batches through a
new barrel for only 2-3 months each. Morebeer.com says the staves are
thiner due to planing - do you feel the barrels are solid and did you have
any problem with over oxidation?

Thanks,

Ed


"24brix" > wrote in message
om...
> My experience with the refurbished barrels from morebeer.com is rather
> good. The used barrels don't impart too much oak, I have been able to
> leave my Cab Franc in the barrel for as long as 9 mos. My mistakes
> was not cleaning the barrels properly after the 1st use. I have since
> purchased proxyclean to clean the barrels.
>
> This year I have a new barrel, 30 gallon from World Cooperage in the
> great state of Missouri! I recently drove from Popular Bluff in
> Missouri past Lebanon towards Springfield. Saw a large yard of aging
> staves. Great site!
>
> Michael
> Amigoni Vineyards
> Centerview, MO
> www.amigoni.com



  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ed Marks
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

Michael,

I'm curious which refurbished barrel (size and type) you got. These really
interest me because I'd like to try barrel aging but don't produce enough to
justify a larger barrel and I don't want to have to run batches through a
new barrel for only 2-3 months each. Morebeer.com says the staves are
thiner due to planing - do you feel the barrels are solid and did you have
any problem with over oxidation?

Thanks,

Ed


"24brix" > wrote in message
om...
> My experience with the refurbished barrels from morebeer.com is rather
> good. The used barrels don't impart too much oak, I have been able to
> leave my Cab Franc in the barrel for as long as 9 mos. My mistakes
> was not cleaning the barrels properly after the 1st use. I have since
> purchased proxyclean to clean the barrels.
>
> This year I have a new barrel, 30 gallon from World Cooperage in the
> great state of Missouri! I recently drove from Popular Bluff in
> Missouri past Lebanon towards Springfield. Saw a large yard of aging
> staves. Great site!
>
> Michael
> Amigoni Vineyards
> Centerview, MO
> www.amigoni.com



  #39 (permalink)   Report Post  
islander
 
Posts: n/a
Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

Some very interesting comments here.

I have 3 barrels now... one 10 gal and 2 fives.. One of the fives I
put a spigot in the bottom of one end. it works well to dispense.
One trip to the basement with the caraffe and we are set for dinner.

Now last year I put a batch of our local red in a barrel. in the
fall.tried it a month later and it has gone to vineger for some
reason.. I was really worried about culture being imparted into the
oak and never being able to get rid of it. I asked my friend over at
the wine shop what to do...and the result was soaking it in hot water
with a very very strong silution of Metabisulfate. whew. very
pungent.. but with lots of rinses with hot water and fushing it out
many times, we got it. I chanced a cheap kit in it.. Yes it is back
to normal..

Now my question here. has anyone had experience with storing fruit
wines. (red) in oak.. In particular I am thinking of the next batch
of blackberry.

cheers
Marv ..
on SaltSpring Island BC where it is hot and we been picking
blackberries for almost 2 weeks now.
  #40 (permalink)   Report Post  
Paul E. Lehmann
 
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Default Small Oak Barrels - opinions

islander wrote:

> Some very interesting comments here.
>
> I have 3 barrels now... one 10 gal and 2 fives.. One of the fives I
> put a spigot in the bottom of one end. it works well to dispense.
> One trip to the basement with the caraffe and we are set for dinner.


Do you top up after dispensing? It not, you may want to consider doing that
to prevent the vinegar problem you have experienced.

> Now my question here. has anyone had experience with storing fruit
> wines. (red) in oak.. In particular I am thinking of the next batch
> of blackberry.


You won't know till you try. Personally, I would not unless most of the oak
in the barrels is spent - but to each his own. Since you seem to have an
abundance of blackberries, try it both ways.

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