islander wrote:

> Some very interesting comments here.
>
> I have 3 barrels now... one 10 gal and 2 fives.. One of the fives I
> put a spigot in the bottom of one end. it works well to dispense.
> One trip to the basement with the caraffe and we are set for dinner.

Do you top up after dispensing? It not, you may want to consider doing that
to prevent the vinegar problem you have experienced.

> Now my question here. has anyone had experience with storing fruit
> wines. (red) in oak.. In particular I am thinking of the next batch
> of blackberry.

You won't know till you try. Personally, I would not unless most of the oak
in the barrels is spent - but to each his own. Since you seem to have an
abundance of blackberries, try it both ways.

On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 21:43:10 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
> wrote:

>islander wrote:
>
>> Some very interesting comments here.
>>
>> I have 3 barrels now... one 10 gal and 2 fives.. One of the fives I
>> put a spigot in the bottom of one end. it works well to dispense.
>> One trip to the basement with the caraffe and we are set for dinner.
>
>Do you top up after dispensing? It not, you may want to consider doing that
>to prevent the vinegar problem you have experienced.
>
we usually go through the batch.. the whole 20L in about 2 weeks so I
find an ordinary trap in the bung hole in the top works fine. it
works in reverse letting air in as I dispense.



>> Now my question here. has anyone had experience with storing fruit
>> wines. (red) in oak.. In particular I am thinking of the next batch
>> of blackberry.
>
>You won't know till you try. Personally, I would not unless most of the oak
>in the barrels is spent - but to each his own. Since you seem to have an
>abundance of blackberries, try it both ways.

Ok... this fall I will give it a try with the first batch and let you
know here.

cheers
Marv

On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 21:43:10 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
> wrote:

>islander wrote:
>
>> Some very interesting comments here.
>>
>> I have 3 barrels now... one 10 gal and 2 fives.. One of the fives I
>> put a spigot in the bottom of one end. it works well to dispense.
>> One trip to the basement with the caraffe and we are set for dinner.
>
>Do you top up after dispensing? It not, you may want to consider doing that
>to prevent the vinegar problem you have experienced.
>
we usually go through the batch.. the whole 20L in about 2 weeks so I
find an ordinary trap in the bung hole in the top works fine. it
works in reverse letting air in as I dispense.



>> Now my question here. has anyone had experience with storing fruit
>> wines. (red) in oak.. In particular I am thinking of the next batch
>> of blackberry.
>
>You won't know till you try. Personally, I would not unless most of the oak
>in the barrels is spent - but to each his own. Since you seem to have an
>abundance of blackberries, try it both ways.

Ok... this fall I will give it a try with the first batch and let you
know here.

cheers
Marv

"islander" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 21:43:10 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
> > wrote:

> we usually go through the batch.. the whole 20L in about 2 weeks so I
> find an ordinary trap in the bung hole in the top works fine. it
> works in reverse letting air in as I dispense.

>
>
>

2 weeks is an awfully long time for wine to be sitting exposed to air --
and your wine is exposed.--- every time you draw off a jug of wine you are
adding a jug full of air to the barrel. No wonder you had a vinegar problem
last year. Topping up is absolutely essential is you are to have any chance
of retaining some quality to your wine whether you are dispensing from an
oak barrel or a glass carboy!



--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!

"islander" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 21:43:10 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann"
> > wrote:

> we usually go through the batch.. the whole 20L in about 2 weeks so I
> find an ordinary trap in the bung hole in the top works fine. it
> works in reverse letting air in as I dispense.

>
>
>

2 weeks is an awfully long time for wine to be sitting exposed to air --
and your wine is exposed.--- every time you draw off a jug of wine you are
adding a jug full of air to the barrel. No wonder you had a vinegar problem
last year. Topping up is absolutely essential is you are to have any chance
of retaining some quality to your wine whether you are dispensing from an
oak barrel or a glass carboy!



--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "PSANTISPAM" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!

"sgbrix" > wrote in message
om...
> "Tom S" > wrote in message
>...
>
> ---snip
>
> > I did a long term (>15 years) study on this, with identical wines aged
> > separately in new French and American (fire bent) oak barrels. The
American
> > oak aged wine smelled the best, but the French oak aged wine _tasted_
best.
> >
> ---snip
>
> It is interesting that you also have noticed the smell of American
> oak.

I'm certainly not the only one. At least one cooperage is offering barrels
with a combination of American and French oaks in the same barrel. IIRC,
the heads are one and the bilge is the other.

My experiment is going something like this. 1 Gibbs Bros 10g
> (3rd use) I have Zinfandel and am topping up with exactly the same
> wine (bottled). Another of the same make and age I have added Syrah as
> a topping wine.
>
> On the floor I have 2 - 5g jugs with the same Zin, one never added any
> oak to, but the other I put in a mix 50/50 american/French chips.
> There is no question that the wines aged in the barrels are by far
> more superior. Thicker somehow, which I believe is because of the
> evaporation of the wine.

Probably so. After all, only water and alcohol escape through the staves.
Water leaves preferentially in a dry cellar; alcohol in a damp cellar.

> I think for reds which is what I concentrate making, the wine needs a
> touch of American oak as well.

In the case of Zin, Merlot and Cabernet I agree. I'm not so sure about
Syrah or other Rhone reds, but I strongly _disagree_ in the case of Pinot
Noir. Pinot Noir requires European oak only.

Tom S

As a middle-aged amateur winemaker, I find that my sense of taste is not as
acute as my younger colleagues...and I love my small barrels. I have one
that's about 8 gallons, and another that's closer to about 7 gallons. For
years, I've used Stavin cubes, and the results are relatively subtle. But my
first Pinot in new French oak for about 6 months has a rich vanilla flavor that
even I can taste.

The added advantage is that your cellar actually smells like you know what
you're going.

I can't wait to order my next barrel. Even if I over-oak, I figure that it'll
age out over time.

Lee

As a middle-aged amateur winemaker, I find that my sense of taste is not as
acute as my younger colleagues...and I love my small barrels. I have one
that's about 8 gallons, and another that's closer to about 7 gallons. For
years, I've used Stavin cubes, and the results are relatively subtle. But my
first Pinot in new French oak for about 6 months has a rich vanilla flavor that
even I can taste.

The added advantage is that your cellar actually smells like you know what
you're going.

I can't wait to order my next barrel. Even if I over-oak, I figure that it'll
age out over time.

Lee

"islander" > wrote in message
...
> Some very interesting comments here.
>
{snip}

> Now my question here. has anyone had experience with storing fruit
> wines. (red) in oak.. In particular I am thinking of the next batch
> of blackberry.
>
> cheers
> Marv ..
> on SaltSpring Island BC where it is hot and we been picking
> blackberries for almost 2 weeks now.

Paul knows that I like a well oaked wine. But I have not cared for the
fruit wines that I tried to oak. I was sure that Cherry would take oak well
but I did not care for it at all. This does not mean that you would not
like it.

I would suggest that you draw off a gallon of a particular type of wine and
oak it with beans. Give it a couple of months. If you like the result,
then put the whole batch in your barrel. If not, you have saved your wine.

Ray

"islander" > wrote in message
...
> Some very interesting comments here.
>
{snip}

> Now my question here. has anyone had experience with storing fruit
> wines. (red) in oak.. In particular I am thinking of the next batch
> of blackberry.
>
> cheers
> Marv ..
> on SaltSpring Island BC where it is hot and we been picking
> blackberries for almost 2 weeks now.

Paul knows that I like a well oaked wine. But I have not cared for the
fruit wines that I tried to oak. I was sure that Cherry would take oak well
but I did not care for it at all. This does not mean that you would not
like it.

I would suggest that you draw off a gallon of a particular type of wine and
oak it with beans. Give it a couple of months. If you like the result,
then put the whole batch in your barrel. If not, you have saved your wine.

Ray

(LG1111) wrote in message >...

> As a middle-aged amateur winemaker, I find that my sense of taste is not as
> acute as my younger colleagues...and I love my small barrels. I have one
> that's about 8 gallons, and another that's closer to about 7 gallons. For
> years, I've used Stavin cubes, and the results are relatively subtle.

I guess when the oak flavor from your barrel is "used up", these beans
or staves could come in good use. Your wine will still get the barrel
"climate", and you even get to share your top up wine with your barrel


---snip
>
> I can't wait to order my next barrel. Even if I over-oak, I figure that it'll
> age out over time.

Just blend out any over oaked wine, no need to wait.

SG Brix

(LG1111) wrote in message >...

> As a middle-aged amateur winemaker, I find that my sense of taste is not as
> acute as my younger colleagues...and I love my small barrels. I have one
> that's about 8 gallons, and another that's closer to about 7 gallons. For
> years, I've used Stavin cubes, and the results are relatively subtle.

I guess when the oak flavor from your barrel is "used up", these beans
or staves could come in good use. Your wine will still get the barrel
"climate", and you even get to share your top up wine with your barrel


---snip
>
> I can't wait to order my next barrel. Even if I over-oak, I figure that it'll
> age out over time.

Just blend out any over oaked wine, no need to wait.

SG Brix

"Ray" > wrote in message
. ..
> I like a well oaked wine. But I have not cared for the
> fruit wines that I tried to oak. I was sure that Cherry would take oak
well
> but I did not care for it at all. This does not mean that you would not
> like it.

Frankly, I don't find Country Wines take well to oak, for the most part.
Sure, you might find an Olallieberry (sp?) that likes a bit of French oak,
but my primo candidate for oaking is Blackberry.

Tom S

>
>Do you top up after dispensing? It not, you may want to consider doing that
>to prevent the vinegar problem you have experienced.
>

Paul Please explain what you mean by topping up?? I am missing
something here.!!

cheers
Marv

>
>Do you top up after dispensing? It not, you may want to consider doing that
>to prevent the vinegar problem you have experienced.
>

Paul Please explain what you mean by topping up?? I am missing
something here.!!

cheers
Marv

"sgbrix" > wrote in message
om...
> (LG1111) wrote in message
>...

> you even get to share your top up wine with your barrel

No, no, _no_! You're supposed to drink from the _barrel_ - not the topping
bottle. Otherwise you're monitoring the progress of the _topping_ wine -
and not the barrel.

Let's say you lose 250 ml of wine per week from a typical barrel. Assuming
that you top weekly, pull out a few tastes (after sniffing the bunghole and
checking out the surface of the wine for floating "mung"). Taste from the
top of the barrel; then taste from farther down and compare the two. If
they're similar, you're OK.

Pull out at least a 750 ml sample from the barrel. Then top the barrel to
the brim from a 1 liter bottle of unoaked wine. If you run out from the
liter bottle, pour back from the sample bottle to fill the barrel. Then
drink whatever's left over, while mulling what's right and wrong with the
wine.

Forget about your troubles, the Mysteries of Life - _whatever_. Just focus
on the wine. Think about what it seems to need, and imagine what you
_could_ do to improve it. Then try that on a sample. If that works,
consider treating _all_ the wine that way. Try an adjustment of what you
did before. Maybe that'll be better. Or not.

After awhile, you'll develop a feel for what's best for a given wine.

It's all a learning experience, and all about the art. This is the most
interesting part of winemaking IMO.

Tom S

"sgbrix" > wrote in message
om...
> (LG1111) wrote in message
>...

> you even get to share your top up wine with your barrel

No, no, _no_! You're supposed to drink from the _barrel_ - not the topping
bottle. Otherwise you're monitoring the progress of the _topping_ wine -
and not the barrel.

Let's say you lose 250 ml of wine per week from a typical barrel. Assuming
that you top weekly, pull out a few tastes (after sniffing the bunghole and
checking out the surface of the wine for floating "mung"). Taste from the
top of the barrel; then taste from farther down and compare the two. If
they're similar, you're OK.

Pull out at least a 750 ml sample from the barrel. Then top the barrel to
the brim from a 1 liter bottle of unoaked wine. If you run out from the
liter bottle, pour back from the sample bottle to fill the barrel. Then
drink whatever's left over, while mulling what's right and wrong with the
wine.

Forget about your troubles, the Mysteries of Life - _whatever_. Just focus
on the wine. Think about what it seems to need, and imagine what you
_could_ do to improve it. Then try that on a sample. If that works,
consider treating _all_ the wine that way. Try an adjustment of what you
did before. Maybe that'll be better. Or not.

After awhile, you'll develop a feel for what's best for a given wine.

It's all a learning experience, and all about the art. This is the most
interesting part of winemaking IMO.

Tom S

"sgbrix" > wrote in message
om...
> (LG1111) wrote in message
>...

> you even get to share your top up wine with your barrel

No, no, _no_! You're supposed to drink from the _barrel_ - not the topping
bottle. Otherwise you're monitoring the progress of the _topping_ wine -
and not the barrel.

Let's say you lose 250 ml of wine per week from a typical barrel. Assuming
that you top weekly, pull out a few tastes (after sniffing the bunghole and
checking out the surface of the wine for floating "mung"). Taste from the
top of the barrel; then taste from farther down and compare the two. If
they're similar, you're OK.

Pull out at least a 750 ml sample from the barrel. Then top the barrel to
the brim from a 1 liter bottle of unoaked wine. If you run out from the
liter bottle, pour back from the sample bottle to fill the barrel. Then
drink whatever's left over, while mulling what's right and wrong with the
wine.

Forget about your troubles, the Mysteries of Life - _whatever_. Just focus
on the wine. Think about what it seems to need, and imagine what you
_could_ do to improve it. Then try that on a sample. If that works,
consider treating _all_ the wine that way. Try an adjustment of what you
did before. Maybe that'll be better. Or not.

After awhile, you'll develop a feel for what's best for a given wine.

It's all a learning experience, and all about the art. This is the most
interesting part of winemaking IMO.

Tom S

islander wrote:

>
>>
>>Do you top up after dispensing? It not, you may want to consider doing
>>that to prevent the vinegar problem you have experienced.
>>
>
> Paul Please explain what you mean by topping up?? I am missing
> something here.!!
>
> cheers
> Marv

Topping up is the process of filling your barrel with wine so there is
little or no air space on top of the wine. Spoilage organisms love air so
keep your barrel as full as possible.

Also, when topping up, shine a light in your barrel to see if you have a
white film on top of the wine. If you check often and you catch it early
enough, this can usually be solved by overflowing the barrel with top up
wine and floating it out. You may also have to add some SO2 and or adjust
your pH to a lower value. Do NOT top up your barrels with an inferior
wine. I always use as good as or better wine than what is in the barrel.

As an example, I have a 10 gallon barrel. I check for full every two weeks.
I always first look at the surface in the barrel to see if there is any
white film on top. I then smell the wine. I then taste a small sample from
the barrel. Usually I will have to add slightly less than half a bottle
every two weeks to keep the barrel topped up to the top of the bung. This
is slightly less than a bottle a month for a 10 gallon barrel. I bottle
some of my wine in splits for this purpose. It depends on the temperature
and humidity how fast you loose volume. When you barrel a wine always have
planned what you are going to use for top up wine and have it handy. If
you do not need a full bottle or even half a bottle - just drink the rest.
- Oh, by the way, it is always best to taste and smell your top up wine
before adding also. I have had my barrel for four years now and have never
had a problem. The barrel has never been empty for more than about 30
minutes.

islander wrote:

>
>>
>>Do you top up after dispensing? It not, you may want to consider doing
>>that to prevent the vinegar problem you have experienced.
>>
>
> Paul Please explain what you mean by topping up?? I am missing
> something here.!!
>
> cheers
> Marv

Topping up is the process of filling your barrel with wine so there is
little or no air space on top of the wine. Spoilage organisms love air so
keep your barrel as full as possible.

Also, when topping up, shine a light in your barrel to see if you have a
white film on top of the wine. If you check often and you catch it early
enough, this can usually be solved by overflowing the barrel with top up
wine and floating it out. You may also have to add some SO2 and or adjust
your pH to a lower value. Do NOT top up your barrels with an inferior
wine. I always use as good as or better wine than what is in the barrel.

As an example, I have a 10 gallon barrel. I check for full every two weeks.
I always first look at the surface in the barrel to see if there is any
white film on top. I then smell the wine. I then taste a small sample from
the barrel. Usually I will have to add slightly less than half a bottle
every two weeks to keep the barrel topped up to the top of the bung. This
is slightly less than a bottle a month for a 10 gallon barrel. I bottle
some of my wine in splits for this purpose. It depends on the temperature
and humidity how fast you loose volume. When you barrel a wine always have
planned what you are going to use for top up wine and have it handy. If
you do not need a full bottle or even half a bottle - just drink the rest.
- Oh, by the way, it is always best to taste and smell your top up wine
before adding also. I have had my barrel for four years now and have never
had a problem. The barrel has never been empty for more than about 30
minutes.

islander wrote:

>
>>
>>Do you top up after dispensing? It not, you may want to consider doing
>>that to prevent the vinegar problem you have experienced.
>>
>
> Paul Please explain what you mean by topping up?? I am missing
> something here.!!
>
> cheers
> Marv

Topping up is the process of filling your barrel with wine so there is
little or no air space on top of the wine. Spoilage organisms love air so
keep your barrel as full as possible.

Also, when topping up, shine a light in your barrel to see if you have a
white film on top of the wine. If you check often and you catch it early
enough, this can usually be solved by overflowing the barrel with top up
wine and floating it out. You may also have to add some SO2 and or adjust
your pH to a lower value. Do NOT top up your barrels with an inferior
wine. I always use as good as or better wine than what is in the barrel.

As an example, I have a 10 gallon barrel. I check for full every two weeks.
I always first look at the surface in the barrel to see if there is any
white film on top. I then smell the wine. I then taste a small sample from
the barrel. Usually I will have to add slightly less than half a bottle
every two weeks to keep the barrel topped up to the top of the bung. This
is slightly less than a bottle a month for a 10 gallon barrel. I bottle
some of my wine in splits for this purpose. It depends on the temperature
and humidity how fast you loose volume. When you barrel a wine always have
planned what you are going to use for top up wine and have it handy. If
you do not need a full bottle or even half a bottle - just drink the rest.
- Oh, by the way, it is always best to taste and smell your top up wine
before adding also. I have had my barrel for four years now and have never
had a problem. The barrel has never been empty for more than about 30
minutes.

Does anyone have dimensions of typical barrels of given volumes, large and
small?.
Length, diameter on the end, diameter in the middle, volume.

Thanks
Ray
> wrote in message
om...
> Hello everyone,
>
> While reading r.c.w. via Google groups today, I noticed the following
> link on the right hand side of the screen:
> http://www.1000oaksbarrel.com/index.html
>
> They sell very small barrels (1, 3, 5, 10, & 20 Liters) at very
> reasonable prices. These seem like an attractive way for the home
> winemaker to try barrel aging, without the expense or storage
> difficulties of a traditional large barrel. And if it doesn't work
> out, the investment is not too painful.
>
> I know that the smaller barrels will impart a strong oak flavor due to
> the proportionally large surface area exposed to the wine. But other
> than this caveat, does anyone have a comment on these products from a
> quality perspective?
>
> Thanks for your input. Cheers-
>
> Roger
> Quinta do Placer
>

Does anyone have dimensions of typical barrels of given volumes, large and
small?.
Length, diameter on the end, diameter in the middle, volume.

Thanks
Ray
> wrote in message
om...
> Hello everyone,
>
> While reading r.c.w. via Google groups today, I noticed the following
> link on the right hand side of the screen:
> http://www.1000oaksbarrel.com/index.html
>
> They sell very small barrels (1, 3, 5, 10, & 20 Liters) at very
> reasonable prices. These seem like an attractive way for the home
> winemaker to try barrel aging, without the expense or storage
> difficulties of a traditional large barrel. And if it doesn't work
> out, the investment is not too painful.
>
> I know that the smaller barrels will impart a strong oak flavor due to
> the proportionally large surface area exposed to the wine. But other
> than this caveat, does anyone have a comment on these products from a
> quality perspective?
>
> Thanks for your input. Cheers-
>
> Roger
> Quinta do Placer
>