Several of my reds have pH's around 3.5 or so and TA's from 6.5 to
7.5g/l. They are 10 months old and have not yet been cold stabilized.
Tastes are tart but OK with the exception of the amarone (TA 7.5)
which is tart like a lemon. I'd like to reduce both TA and pH in all
of these reds.

Should I just cold stabilize or reduce acids with KHCO3 for example
and then cold stab?

Also, different sources suggest different ideal TA's for finished dry
reds. Pambianchi on page 83 suggests 4.0-5.5g/l. Don Buchan's
excellent FAQ site http://www.malak.ca/rcw.faq suggests 6.5g/l. I
know taste is the ultimate authority but what should I be aiming for
here?

How does one reduce both TA and pH simultaneously?

"glad heart" > wrote in message
om...
> Several of my reds have pH's around 3.5 or so and TA's from 6.5 to
> 7.5g/l. They are 10 months old and have not yet been cold stabilized.
> Tastes are tart but OK with the exception of the amarone (TA 7.5)
> which is tart like a lemon. I'd like to reduce both TA and pH in all
> of these reds.

First off, those sound like pretty reasonable numbers for a red wine, but
I'm confused. If you reduce the pH the wine will become even _more_ tart.

> Should I just cold stabilize or reduce acids with KHCO3 for example
> and then cold stab?

Your best bet is to do a bench trial on a small sample before touching the
main lot. Put some in a small plastic soda bottle (not completely full),
squeeze all the air out and cap it tightly. Put it into the freezer
overnight and then let it sit in the refrigerator until it thaws. That'll
precipitate the excess tartrates. Decant the wine from the sediment and
taste it after it comes to room temperature.

Don't worry about the numbers; concentrate on what it _tastes_ like. If
it's still too acidic, try adding a little carbonate, shaking to release the
CO2 and repeating the above.

> Also, different sources suggest different ideal TA's for finished dry
> reds. Pambianchi on page 83 suggests 4.0-5.5g/l. Don Buchan's
> excellent FAQ site http://www.malak.ca/rcw.faq suggests 6.5g/l. I
> know taste is the ultimate authority but what should I be aiming for
> here?

Forget the numbers. Make it _taste_ good.

> How does one reduce both TA and pH simultaneously?

Oddly enough, this is accomplished by _adding_ acid (tartaric) and removing
the excess as bitartrate by chilling it out.

Tom S

I don't proclaim to be an expert winemaker BUT I don't see any
problems with what you got. I'd give it some time and let the
bitterness fade away amd trust me, it will. If your in a hurry then
cold stabilize but I think your ok . If you want, take 1 gallon and
cold stabilize it and see what you think. IMO, taste is everything so
go by that. You'll be surprised to see how accurate your taste
instincts are.

Bob

(glad heart) wrote in message . com>...
> Several of my reds have pH's around 3.5 or so and TA's from 6.5 to
> 7.5g/l. They are 10 months old and have not yet been cold stabilized.
> Tastes are tart but OK with the exception of the amarone (TA 7.5)
> which is tart like a lemon. I'd like to reduce both TA and pH in all
> of these reds.
>
> Should I just cold stabilize or reduce acids with KHCO3 for example
> and then cold stab?
>
> Also, different sources suggest different ideal TA's for finished dry
> reds. Pambianchi on page 83 suggests 4.0-5.5g/l. Don Buchan's
> excellent FAQ site http://www.malak.ca/rcw.faq suggests 6.5g/l. I
> know taste is the ultimate authority but what should I be aiming for
> here?
>
> How does one reduce both TA and pH simultaneously?

Thanks for your response Tom.

> First off, those sound like pretty reasonable numbers for a red wine, but
> I'm confused. If you reduce the pH the wine will become even _more_ tart.

I'm concerned about the pH being too high from a stability point of
view. I'd like to age the wines if I can get the chemistry right.
Pambianchi suggests pH closer to 3.1 or 3.2. Ideally I need to lower
pH a little and TA even more (I think).

So, basic procedure(?): add tartaric to lower pH and then chill (with
or without a reducing agent like KHCO3)?

TIA and cheers,

Jim

glad heart ) wrote:
>Thanks for your response Tom.

>> First off, those sound like pretty reasonable numbers for a red wine, but
>> I'm confused. If you reduce the pH the wine will become even _more_ tart.

>I'm concerned about the pH being too high from a stability point of
>view. I'd like to age the wines if I can get the chemistry right.
>Pambianchi suggests pH closer to 3.1 or 3.2. Ideally I need to lower
>pH a little and TA even more (I think).

>So, basic procedure(?): add tartaric to lower pH and then chill (with
>or without a reducing agent like KHCO3)?

>TIA and cheers,

>Jim

As long as your pH is below 3.65 or so, you will drop both TA and
pH when you cold stabilize. The trick is for you would be to add
KHCO3 to lower (wtih cold stabilization) acidity, but not so muchtat
you raise your pH above 3.65.

But what Tom said is exactly right--get it so that it TASTES right.
Wine with a pH of 3.5 is absolutely stable. I'm happy with anything
below 3.6 or so, and there are people who go much higher. Most reds
will not have pH's anywhere near 3.1 or 3.2, and really, they don't
need to.

Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

"glad heart" > wrote in message
om...
> Several of my reds have pH's around 3.5 or so and TA's from 6.5 to
> 7.5g/l. They are 10 months old and have not yet been cold stabilized.
> Tastes are tart but OK with the exception of the amarone (TA 7.5)
> which is tart like a lemon. I'd like to reduce both TA and pH in all
> of these reds.
>
> Should I just cold stabilize or reduce acids with KHCO3 for example
> and then cold stab?
>
> Also, different sources suggest different ideal TA's for finished dry
> reds. Pambianchi on page 83 suggests 4.0-5.5g/l. Don Buchan's
> excellent FAQ site http://www.malak.ca/rcw.faq suggests 6.5g/l. I
> know taste is the ultimate authority but what should I be aiming for
> here?
>
> How does one reduce both TA and pH simultaneously?

Glad Heart,
Here is an article by Clark Smith that puts wine pH in the proper
perspective.

http://www.vinovation.com/ArticleWinepH.htm

"David C Breeden" > wrote in message
...
> Wine with a pH of 3.5 is absolutely stable. I'm happy with anything
> below 3.6 or so, and there are people who go much higher. Most reds
> will not have pH's anywhere near 3.1 or 3.2, and really, they don't
> need to.

Red wine at pH 3.2 is pretty user-unfriendly. Sure, it'll be _stable_, but
nobody will want to drink it!

As David said, pH 3.5 (and even higher) is perfectly acceptable for red
wines. Actually, that's about where my Chardonnay usually ends up, and I've
had no stability problems with it. The level of free SO2 is a bit higher,
but 50 ppm free isn't all that high anyway.

I've had some very fine Cabernets in the range of pH 3.8.

FWIW, wine judges tend to prefer high pH wines over lower pH wines of equal
quality.

Tom S

Tom S ) wrote:

>"David C Breeden" > wrote in message
...
>> Wine with a pH of 3.5 is absolutely stable. I'm happy with anything
>> below 3.6 or so, and there are people who go much higher. Most reds
>> will not have pH's anywhere near 3.1 or 3.2, and really, they don't
>> need to.

>Red wine at pH 3.2 is pretty user-unfriendly. Sure, it'll be _stable_, but
>nobody will want to drink it!

>As David said, pH 3.5 (and even higher) is perfectly acceptable for red
>wines. Actually, that's about where my Chardonnay usually ends up, and I've
>had no stability problems with it. The level of free SO2 is a bit higher,
>but 50 ppm free isn't all that high anyway.

>I've had some very fine Cabernets in the range of pH 3.8.

>FWIW, wine judges tend to prefer high pH wines over lower pH wines of equal
>quality.

>Tom S


Now Tom, let's not be all California-centric! Just 'cause you
hot-climate folks have high pH's as a matter of course, it doesn't
mean *everyone* does. There are lots and lots of lovely Rieslings
(German, Austrian, New York!) whose pH's are in the pH 3.00 range.

:-)

Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

David C Breeden ) wrote:
>Tom S ) wrote:

>>"David C Breeden" > wrote in message
...
>>> Wine with a pH of 3.5 is absolutely stable. I'm happy with anything
>>> below 3.6 or so, and there are people who go much higher. Most reds
>>> will not have pH's anywhere near 3.1 or 3.2, and really, they don't
>>> need to.

>>Red wine at pH 3.2 is pretty user-unfriendly. Sure, it'll be _stable_, but
>>nobody will want to drink it!

>>As David said, pH 3.5 (and even higher) is perfectly acceptable for red
>>wines. Actually, that's about where my Chardonnay usually ends up, and I've
>>had no stability problems with it. The level of free SO2 is a bit higher,
>>but 50 ppm free isn't all that high anyway.

>>I've had some very fine Cabernets in the range of pH 3.8.

>>FWIW, wine judges tend to prefer high pH wines over lower pH wines of equal
>>quality.

>>Tom S


>Now Tom, let's not be all California-centric! Just 'cause you
>hot-climate folks have high pH's as a matter of course, it doesn't
>mean *everyone* does. There are lots and lots of lovely Rieslings
>(German, Austrian, New York!) whose pH's are in the pH 3.00 range.

>:-)

>Dave


Sorry, sorry, I take it all back! I missed that crucial word "red"
at the beginning of your sentence about unfriendly wines.

I completely agree--I can't think of any reds whose pH is that low.

Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

> > Several of my reds have pH's around 3.5 or so and TA's from 6.5 to
> > 7.5g/l. They are 10 months old and have not yet been cold stabilized.
> > Tastes are tart but OK with the exception of the amarone (TA 7.5)
> > which is tart like a lemon. I'd like to reduce both TA and pH in all
> > of these reds.
>
> First off, those sound like pretty reasonable numbers for a red wine, but
> I'm confused. If you reduce the pH the wine will become even _more_ tart.
>

This is not necessarily true. The TA is quite a bit more impactive on
the organoleptic qualities of the wine than pH will ever be. If you
can succeed in lowering both, the wine can become considerbly less
tart.

As David pointed out, cold stabilization of this wine will lower both.
If the pH is above 3.65, the pH will raise from tartrate
precipitation. How much of a change is highly dependent on the
specific concentrations of the various acids of the wine and is
therefore unpredictable. With that said, I've had TA's drop as much
as a gram per liter from tartrate precipitation. pH may drop by 0.15 a
best. The level of pH when tartrates are forming is a factor for how
much it will change. The further away from the wines pKa (typcially
around 3.65) the more dramatic the change.

Making wine at high pH is a dicey proposition at best. This is the
first thing Clark Smith will say when lecturing on the subject. (I
just sat through another of his lectures a couple weeks ago). Even
when conditions are proper, there can be premature browning of the
wine. And where hybrids are concerned, it's no-man's land, as more
than likely, there are not substantial tannin levels to have the wine
keep for very long at all. Sulfites at these elevated pH's is
virtually useless.

Red wines with TA in the 6.5 range should not be terribly tart. If
they are, then I'd have to question the measurements accuracy.


> > Should I just cold stabilize

This would help considerbly. Also, you don't mention whether or not
the wines are ML pos. Depending on the malate content, this could
take the pH above confortable levels for sulfite use.

>>or reduce acids with KHCO3 for example
> > and then cold stab?
>
> Your best bet is to do a bench trial on a small sample before touching the
> main lot. Put some in a small plastic soda bottle (not completely full),
> squeeze all the air out and cap it tightly. Put it into the freezer
> overnight and then let it sit in the refrigerator until it thaws. That'll
> precipitate the excess tartrates. Decant the wine from the sediment and
> taste it after it comes to room temperature.
>
> Don't worry about the numbers; concentrate on what it _tastes_ like. If
> it's still too acidic, try adding a little carbonate, shaking to release the
> CO2 and repeating the above.
>
> > Also, different sources suggest different ideal TA's for finished dry
> > reds. Pambianchi on page 83 suggests 4.0-5.5g/l. Don Buchan's
> > excellent FAQ site http://www.malak.ca/rcw.faq suggests 6.5g/l. I
> > know taste is the ultimate authority but what should I be aiming for
> > here?
>

I like my reds in the 5.0 to 6.5 range, but you've got the right idea
that the taste is the ultimate tell tale.

clyde

Steelville, MO, USofA

"David C Breeden" > wrote in message
...
> Tom S ) wrote:
> >I've had some very fine Cabernets in the range of pH 3.8.
>
> >FWIW, wine judges tend to prefer high pH wines over lower pH wines of
equal
> >quality.
>
> >Tom S
>
>
> Now Tom, let's not be all California-centric! Just 'cause you
> hot-climate folks have high pH's as a matter of course, it doesn't
> mean *everyone* does. There are lots and lots of lovely Rieslings
> (German, Austrian, New York!) whose pH's are in the pH 3.00 range.

Sure, but I thought the discussion was regarding _red_ wines. In fact I
_know_ it was.

Tom S

"David C Breeden" > wrote in message
...
> Sorry, sorry, I take it all back! I missed that crucial word "red"
> at the beginning of your sentence about unfriendly wines.

Oops - I posted the other before I read this one. You're off the hook,
David. ;^)

Tom S

"Clyde Gill" > wrote in message
om...
> The level of pH when tartrates are forming is a factor for how
> much it will change. The further away from the wines pKa (typcially
> around 3.65) the more dramatic the change.

Hi, Clyde -
On another NG we had a similar discussion on the effect of cold stabilizing
wines. IIRC, the pKa for potassium bitartrate mentioned was a lot lower
than 3.65. It was more like 3.2 - and this data was from an organic
chemist, who certainly should be a reliable source.

> Sulfites at these elevated pH's is
> virtually useless.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that, but it's true that it takes a good deal
more free SO2 to maintain 0.8 ppm molecular SO2 at pH 3.8 than it does at
3.2.

Tom S

No MLF Clyde.

Excellent comments everyone. A big help. Much obliged.

Different resources conflict at times. Can be difficult for a newbie
to know what to do at the crossroads.

Cheers, Jim

> > The level of pH when tartrates are forming is a factor for how
> > much it will change. The further away from the wines pKa (typcially
> > around 3.65) the more dramatic the change.
>
> Hi, Clyde -
> On another NG we had a similar discussion on the effect of cold stabilizing
> wines. IIRC, the pKa for potassium bitartrate mentioned was a lot lower
> than 3.65. It was more like 3.2 - and this data was from an organic
> chemist, who certainly should be a reliable source.
>

Hi TomS,

You know that I'm no chemist, but the way I understand this, the pKa
of KHTa is not the issue here, but rather the pKa of tartaric acid in
wine. Tartaric acid has a pKa of 3.5 in water, but because of the
buffering effects of wine (created by the various acids and salts
present) the pKa for tartaric in wine is slightly higher, usually
around 3.65, depending on the grape variety, growing season, location,
etc.

> > Sulfites at these elevated pH's is
> > virtually useless.
>
> I wouldn't go so far as to say that, but it's true that it takes a good deal
> more free SO2 to maintain 0.8 ppm molecular SO2 at pH 3.8 than it does at
> 3.2.
>

You differ from Clark Smith, who states that levels of 20 to 30 ppm is
all that should be maintained in wines of higher pH, and that the
purpose is only to bind acetaldehyde; not as a microbial disinfectant.
I don't go there, so cannot say from experience; just hearsay!!




clyde

More for this discussion. Several years ago I cold stabilized a Vidal
wine. There was a dramatic drop in pH. Ed Goist, who used to post valuable
information here, sent me the response given below. Pretty neat stuff.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA


From Ed Goist, February 2001
In wines with 11 to 13% alcohol cold stabilization will affect pH as
follows;

start pH pH change due to cold stabilization
3.20 or less noticeable, substantial decrease in pH
3.21-3.40 slight decrease in pH
3.41-3.60 very minimal change in pH
3.61-3.75 slight increase in pH
3.76 or more noticeable, substantial increase in pH

This is because of the pKa for potassium bitartrate of 3.55
bitartrates are effectively an alkaline substance for a wine with an
overall pH of 3.5 or lower,
and they are effectively an acid substance for a wine with an overall
pH of 3.6 or higher.

When tartrates are removed from wine with a very low pH, an alkaline
constituent is
effectively being removed and a greater proportion of acid
constituents overall will be
dissociated. This will cause the pH to decrease.

When tartrates are removed from a wine with a very high pH, an acidic
constituent is
effectively being removed and a smaller proportion of acid
constituents overall will be
dissociated. This will cause the pH to increase.

"Clyde Gill" > wrote in message
om...
> You differ from Clark Smith, who states that levels of 20 to 30 ppm is
> all that should be maintained in wines of higher pH, and that the
> purpose is only to bind acetaldehyde; not as a microbial disinfectant.

Hi Clyde -
I'm not so sure we actually differ much on that topic. I wasn't necessarily
_advocating_ maintaining 0.8 ppm molecular SO2 in a high pH wine; only
pointing out that it's possible. However, I suspect that 80 ppm free SO2
might cause sulfite sensitive folks some problems as that high pH wine hits
their stomach and the molecular free goes through the roof in that pH 3.0
environment!

For that matter, it seems to be fairly common practice to maintain molecular
SO2 at 0.5 - 0.6 ppm in red wines.

I don't think I'd risk free SO2 as low as Clark Smith recommends for high pH
wines though. I'd probably opt for an arbitrary maximum of ~50 ppm free and
leave it at that.

Tom S