Dear All

I was reading the July Issue of Decanter and found an article that said one
producer
destemmed all their red grapes by hand preferring this to the mechanically
destemming that they said was too rough.

They said there are big difference between manual and mechanic destemming.

If you destem by hand how to you crush the grapes.

Anyone else proceeded with this method before.

Thanks

Marc

"MC" > wrote in message >...
> Dear All
>
> I was reading the July Issue of Decanter and found an article that said one
> producer
> destemmed all their red grapes by hand preferring this to the mechanically
> destemming that they said was too rough.
>
> They said there are big difference between manual and mechanic destemming.
>
> If you destem by hand how to you crush the grapes.
>
> Anyone else proceeded with this method before.
>
> Thanks
>
> Marc


Marc -
There's a reason why mechanical destemmers were invented.
Destemming by hand is amazingly time-consuming. Two years ago I
picked about 100# of grapes locally, and had to destem and crush them
by hand. The destemming process took me 8 hours or more -- far more
than it took to pick the grapes in the first place. The variety I
picked (called Frontenac - a recent hybrid) comes out about the size
of blueberries, so there are a whole lot of grapes per cluster. I
finally managed to rig up a way to crush the grapes (using a tomato
crusher), but the destemming was all manual. The 100# of grapes
yielded between 6 and 7 gallons of wine -- not a whole lot, really,
for the time it took.

You are welcome to destem by hand if you feel the urge. Be warned,
however, that it will likely take a good deal longer than you would
guess; you might want to have a backup plan lined up, if you are
intending to do any significant volume of grapes.

Best of luck, and happy fermenting . . .

Doug

Marc,

Some people recommend using a plastic milk crate with small bottom holes
to "scrub" the grapes through, leaving the stems behind. I've tried it
in the past and it works fairly well, somewhere between hand &
mechanical destemming. Just place the crate over your fermenter, dump in
enough grapes to about cover the bottom and start rubbing the grapes
through.

BTW, I now use a mechanical destemmer, but I agree that it's less than
ideal from a quality standpoint, at least with Eastern grapes, where you
often want to remove all the green stems. I find thet the stems get a
bit broken up and some passes through with the grapes. Often I'd rather
have no stem matter at all in the must, but large batches make this
impossible.
--


Mike MTM, Cokesbury, New Jersey, USA

Hi....any problem with just crushing a few lbs. at a time using a
large piece of wood or whatever and then fishing out the stems?.....I
did that last fall with 72 lbs. of zin grapes.....would have been very
difficult to remove by hand before crushing ....but I wonder if this
imparted too much stem flavor to the wine.....with this zin wine it's
gonna take a while til it ages enough to know for sure.....andy j.

I find the highest quality wine is made with the method of hand
destemming each individual grape one at a time and squeezing it into
the must with your index finger and thumb. Even milk crates can impart
some "green" taste due to it's "abrasive" nature. Last year it took me
4 days to make 1 gallon of wine but the quality is superb.

Just kidding ! .

Bob

MikeMTM > wrote in message ws.com>...
> Marc,
>
> Some people recommend using a plastic milk crate with small bottom holes
> to "scrub" the grapes through, leaving the stems behind. I've tried it
> in the past and it works fairly well, somewhere between hand &
> mechanical destemming. Just place the crate over your fermenter, dump in
> enough grapes to about cover the bottom and start rubbing the grapes
> through.
>
> BTW, I now use a mechanical destemmer, but I agree that it's less than
> ideal from a quality standpoint, at least with Eastern grapes, where you
> often want to remove all the green stems. I find thet the stems get a
> bit broken up and some passes through with the grapes. Often I'd rather
> have no stem matter at all in the must, but large batches make this
> impossible.

We hand destemmed 1800 lbs - 900 cab, 900 zin last year using a
stainless steel tub with 5/8" holes in the bottom. Same concept as the
milk crate. The destemmer has tabs on it to hook on top of a barrel.
We dumped the crushed grapes into the destemmer and scrubbed the grapes
off. Took about 6 hours to crush and destem 1800 lbs - well worth the
effort.
Bought the destemmer (and the grapes) at
http://www.consumersproduce.com/pages/specialty.htm

Steve

On 7/1/2004 9:07 PM, MikeMTM wrote:
>
> Marc,
>
> Some people recommend using a plastic milk crate with small bottom holes
> to "scrub" the grapes through, leaving the stems behind. I've tried it
> in the past and it works fairly well, somewhere between hand &
> mechanical destemming. Just place the crate over your fermenter, dump in
> enough grapes to about cover the bottom and start rubbing the grapes
> through.
>
> BTW, I now use a mechanical destemmer, but I agree that it's less than
> ideal from a quality standpoint, at least with Eastern grapes, where you
> often want to remove all the green stems. I find thet the stems get a
> bit broken up and some passes through with the grapes. Often I'd rather
> have no stem matter at all in the must, but large batches make this
> impossible.

Hehehehe snort snort hehe!
Louise)

"bob" > wrote in message
om...
> I find the highest quality wine is made with the method of hand
> destemming each individual grape one at a time and squeezing it into
> the must with your index finger and thumb. Even milk crates can impart
> some "green" taste due to it's "abrasive" nature. Last year it took me
> 4 days to make 1 gallon of wine but the quality is superb.
>
> Just kidding ! .
>
> Bob
>
> MikeMTM > wrote in message
ws.com>...
> > Marc,
> >
> > Some people recommend using a plastic milk crate with small bottom holes
> > to "scrub" the grapes through, leaving the stems behind. I've tried it
> > in the past and it works fairly well, somewhere between hand &
> > mechanical destemming. Just place the crate over your fermenter, dump in
> > enough grapes to about cover the bottom and start rubbing the grapes
> > through.
> >
> > BTW, I now use a mechanical destemmer, but I agree that it's less than
> > ideal from a quality standpoint, at least with Eastern grapes, where you
> > often want to remove all the green stems. I find thet the stems get a
> > bit broken up and some passes through with the grapes. Often I'd rather
> > have no stem matter at all in the must, but large batches make this
> > impossible.

Mechanical destemming is not really bad for the wine quality. The
problem cames when you first crushed and then destemm. At this moment
you impart large amount of green tannin ( harsh tannin ) wich is not
really a good thing. If you are able to find grapes with mature stem
that does not taste harsh when chewing you could machanically crushed
and destem without quality loss. But, most of the time, you will get
that green looking stem and the best way would be to destem first and
then crush. You can of course do it manually but as others mentionned
this is a huge time consumming job! Be aware and ready for a long day
of hard working. And, a destemmer/crusher that first destem and then
crushed the grapes is almost non-affordable even for some winery. So
the only affordable alternative is to buy a crusher/destemmer and live
with it, it's not that bad after all

Séb

So the two options being considered a

1) Destem by hand so you do not treat the grapes roughly. Then crush the
grapes in some way.

2) Destem with a mechanical destemmer which will also crush the grapes.

The only difference I could see would not be in rough treatment. Doing it
by hand would cause less contact with the stems. I cannot even imagine a
commercial vineyard hand destemmng.

Ray

"MC" > wrote in message
...
> Dear All
>
> I was reading the July Issue of Decanter and found an article that said
one
> producer
> destemmed all their red grapes by hand preferring this to the mechanically
> destemming that they said was too rough.
>
> They said there are big difference between manual and mechanic destemming.
>
> If you destem by hand how to you crush the grapes.
>
> Anyone else proceeded with this method before.
>
> Thanks
>
> Marc
>
>
>

The first couple of years we destemmed by hand. It took us ~30 man
hours to destem 800#. Three years ago we picked up a crusher-destemmer
and never looked back. Even with the machine it still takes 4 hours or
so to cull through the grapes and get rid of the undesirable stuff.
Some of the stems make it into the must but the savings in time is a
good tradeoff for a few stems.

Frank



Steve Landis wrote:

> We hand destemmed 1800 lbs - 900 cab, 900 zin last year using a
> stainless steel tub with 5/8" holes in the bottom. Same concept as the
> milk crate. The destemmer has tabs on it to hook on top of a barrel. We
> dumped the crushed grapes into the destemmer and scrubbed the grapes
> off. Took about 6 hours to crush and destem 1800 lbs - well worth the
> effort.
> Bought the destemmer (and the grapes) at
> http://www.consumersproduce.com/pages/specialty.htm
>
> Steve
>
> On 7/1/2004 9:07 PM, MikeMTM wrote:
>
>>
>> Marc,
>>
>> Some people recommend using a plastic milk crate with small bottom
>> holes to "scrub" the grapes through, leaving the stems behind. I've
>> tried it in the past and it works fairly well, somewhere between hand
>> & mechanical destemming. Just place the crate over your fermenter,
>> dump in enough grapes to about cover the bottom and start rubbing the
>> grapes through.
>>
>> BTW, I now use a mechanical destemmer, but I agree that it's less than
>> ideal from a quality standpoint, at least with Eastern grapes, where
>> you often want to remove all the green stems. I find thet the stems
>> get a bit broken up and some passes through with the grapes. Often I'd
>> rather have no stem matter at all in the must, but large batches make
>> this impossible.
>
>

You missed option 3) Crush then destem by hand.

Steve

On 7/2/2004 2:07 PM, Ray wrote:
> So the two options being considered a
>
> 1) Destem by hand so you do not treat the grapes roughly. Then crush the
> grapes in some way.
>
> 2) Destem with a mechanical destemmer which will also crush the grapes.
>
> The only difference I could see would not be in rough treatment. Doing it
> by hand would cause less contact with the stems. I cannot even imagine a
> commercial vineyard hand destemmng.
>
> Ray
>
> "MC" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Dear All
>>
>>I was reading the July Issue of Decanter and found an article that said
>
> one
>
>>producer
>>destemmed all their red grapes by hand preferring this to the mechanically
>>destemming that they said was too rough.
>>
>>They said there are big difference between manual and mechanic destemming.
>>
>>If you destem by hand how to you crush the grapes.
>>
>>Anyone else proceeded with this method before.
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Marc
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

True, That would yield greater contact of the juice with the stems which
could be a good/bad thing, depending on your point of view.

Ray

"Steve Landis" > wrote in message
...
> You missed option 3) Crush then destem by hand.
>
> Steve
>
> On 7/2/2004 2:07 PM, Ray wrote:
> > So the two options being considered a
> >
> > 1) Destem by hand so you do not treat the grapes roughly. Then crush
the
> > grapes in some way.
> >
> > 2) Destem with a mechanical destemmer which will also crush the grapes.
> >
> > The only difference I could see would not be in rough treatment. Doing
it
> > by hand would cause less contact with the stems. I cannot even imagine
a
> > commercial vineyard hand destemmng.
> >
> > Ray
> >

I think all this about treating the grapes gingerly and avoiding every stem
might be paranoia. Many winemakers add stems back to the wine. Last year my
family made 600lbs of Cabernet and 400 lbs of Muscat wine by crushing and
then desteming by hand. We don't have a mechanical crusher so my sister,
wife, and wine making partners girlfriend wash up and jump into 44 gallon
food grade trash cans and crush about 12-18 inches of grapes at a time. When
the grapes are properly crushed the stems separate easily and we just scoop
them out by hand. I have not noticed any harsh flavors in the wine and Jeff
Cox's book "From Vines to Wines" says he recommends this method for smaller
batches because it is fun. I agree and am planning to make 1000lbs of
cabernet the same way this season.

-Alex

Here's what we did:
Open 36 or 42 lb box of grapes
Dump into plastic milk crate for a water rinse
Rinse with spray and let water drip out
Dump grapes into crusher
Crushed grapes fall into large pan with handles
Repeat
Pan now has the contents of 2 boxes of grapes - crushed
Pan of crushed grapes is dumped into the destemmer which is positioned
on top of the fermenter (aka open 55 gal plastic barrel)
Juice immediately falls through the holes in destemmer
Grapes are rubbed off of stems by hand
Stems are discarded

I would estimate the contact of the juice with the stems is about 3 to 5
minutes. Is this enough time for juice/stem contact to be an issue?

After 3 months in French Oak and 3 months in bottles, the results have
been good.

Steve

On 7/6/2004 10:58 AM, Ray wrote:
> True, That would yield greater contact of the juice with the stems which
> could be a good/bad thing, depending on your point of view.
>
> Ray
>
> "Steve Landis" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>You missed option 3) Crush then destem by hand.
>>
>>Steve
>>
>>On 7/2/2004 2:07 PM, Ray wrote:
>>
>>>So the two options being considered a
>>>
>>>1) Destem by hand so you do not treat the grapes roughly. Then crush
>
> the
>
>>>grapes in some way.
>>>
>>>2) Destem with a mechanical destemmer which will also crush the grapes.
>>>
>>>The only difference I could see would not be in rough treatment. Doing
>
> it
>
>>>by hand would cause less contact with the stems. I cannot even imagine
>
> a
>
>>>commercial vineyard hand destemmng.
>>>
>>>Ray
>>>
>

Steve Landis > wrote in message >...
> Here's what we did:
> Open 36 or 42 lb box of grapes
> Dump into plastic milk crate for a water rinse
> Rinse with spray and let water drip out
> Dump grapes into crusher
> Crushed grapes fall into large pan with handles
> Repeat
> Pan now has the contents of 2 boxes of grapes - crushed
> Pan of crushed grapes is dumped into the destemmer which is positioned
> on top of the fermenter (aka open 55 gal plastic barrel)
> Juice immediately falls through the holes in destemmer
> Grapes are rubbed off of stems by hand
> Stems are discarded
>
> I would estimate the contact of the juice with the stems is about 3 to 5
> minutes. Is this enough time for juice/stem contact to be an issue?
>
> After 3 months in French Oak and 3 months in bottles, the results have
> been good.


So you have a destemmer and a separate crusher ? If so, why don't you
not destem first and then crush the grape ?? The problem is not
really the juice coming in contact with the stem but rather the stem
beeing "crush" by the crusher so you get "sliced", "broken" ( can't
find the exact word in english ) stem wich impart harsh tannin. The
way you are doing it is the same thing than using a crusher/destemmer
but in two steps rather than one.

Séb

Steve Landis > wrote in message >...
> Here's what we did:
> Open 36 or 42 lb box of grapes
> Dump into plastic milk crate for a water rinse
> Rinse with spray and let water drip out
> Dump grapes into crusher
> Crushed grapes fall into large pan with handles
> Repeat
> Pan now has the contents of 2 boxes of grapes - crushed
> Pan of crushed grapes is dumped into the destemmer which is positioned
> on top of the fermenter (aka open 55 gal plastic barrel)
> Juice immediately falls through the holes in destemmer
> Grapes are rubbed off of stems by hand
> Stems are discarded
>
> I would estimate the contact of the juice with the stems is about 3 to 5
> minutes. Is this enough time for juice/stem contact to be an issue?
>
> After 3 months in French Oak and 3 months in bottles, the results have
> been good.


So you have a destemmer and a separate crusher ? If so, why don't you
not destem first and then crush the grape ?? The problem is not
really the juice coming in contact with the stem but rather the stem
beeing "crush" by the crusher so you get "sliced", "broken" ( can't
find the exact word in english ) stem wich impart harsh tannin. The
way you are doing it is the same thing than using a crusher/destemmer
but in two steps rather than one.

Séb

"Alex" > wrote in message >...
> I think all this about treating the grapes gingerly and avoiding every stem
> might be paranoia. Many winemakers add stems back to the wine. Last year my
> family made 600lbs of Cabernet and 400 lbs of Muscat wine by crushing and
> then desteming by hand. We don't have a mechanical crusher so my sister,
> wife, and wine making partners girlfriend wash up and jump into 44 gallon
> food grade trash cans and crush about 12-18 inches of grapes at a time. When
> the grapes are properly crushed the stems separate easily and we just scoop
> them out by hand. I have not noticed any harsh flavors in the wine and Jeff
> Cox's book "From Vines to Wines" says he recommends this method for smaller
> batches because it is fun. I agree and am planning to make 1000lbs of
> cabernet the same way this season.
>
> -Alex


Alex, the problem is not the stem himself. The problem is that you
will damage the stem when you crush first with a crusher and you will
get some harsh tannin for this reason and only if the stem are "green
stem", ie. not fully mature wood. There is not problem (and it's the
best way of adding natural tannin) with adding stem back to the
primary fermenter if they had not been mechanically crushed. The way
you are doing it is a very good technique for the wine and a funny
traditionnal way

Feet are relatively soft, so the stems are not really damaged crushing
with feet. It works, but it might be good advice to put bread bags
over the feet to keep the skin from drying out... If the wood is
green it just bends and goes with the flow (bad pun); if it's browner
and more mature it's not an issue anyway.

I have destemmed and crushed 200# by hand and it takes a lot of time;
200 pounds in a crusher stemmer is done in a few minutes. By hand is
available 24/7, so more often than not that's what I do.

I have an old press I have never put back together, maybe this year.
Usually I use a few 6 gallon pails as my press, one to catch the wine,
one with a bunch of 1/8" holes in it for the press basket, another one
on top as the press mechanism. I just stand in it; it looks goofy but
the wine comes out fine all the time. You can't over press with
something this primitive and there was no cost involved, it's all from
scrap and a little more labor...

Regards,
Joe

....We don't have a mechanical crusher so my sister,
> > wife, and wine making partners girlfriend wash up and jump into 44 gallon
> > food grade trash cans and crush about 12-18 inches of grapes at a time. When
> > the grapes are properly crushed the stems separate easily and we just scoop
> > them out by hand. I have not noticed any harsh flavors in the wine and Jeff
> > Cox's book "From Vines to Wines" says he recommends this method for smaller
> > batches because it is fun. I agree and am planning to make 1000lbs of
> > cabernet the same way this season.
> >
> > -Alex
>
>
> Alex, the problem is not the stem himself. The problem is that you
> will damage the stem when you crush first with a crusher and you will
> get some harsh tannin for this reason and only if the stem are "green
> stem", ie. not fully mature wood. There is not problem (and it's the
> best way of adding natural tannin) with adding stem back to the
> primary fermenter if they had not been mechanically crushed. The way
> you are doing it is a very good technique for the wine and a funny
> traditionnal way

Feet are relatively soft, so the stems are not really damaged crushing
with feet. It works, but it might be good advice to put bread bags
over the feet to keep the skin from drying out... If the wood is
green it just bends and goes with the flow (bad pun); if it's browner
and more mature it's not an issue anyway.

I have destemmed and crushed 200# by hand and it takes a lot of time;
200 pounds in a crusher stemmer is done in a few minutes. By hand is
available 24/7, so more often than not that's what I do.

I have an old press I have never put back together, maybe this year.
Usually I use a few 6 gallon pails as my press, one to catch the wine,
one with a bunch of 1/8" holes in it for the press basket, another one
on top as the press mechanism. I just stand in it; it looks goofy but
the wine comes out fine all the time. You can't over press with
something this primitive and there was no cost involved, it's all from
scrap and a little more labor...

Regards,
Joe

....We don't have a mechanical crusher so my sister,
> > wife, and wine making partners girlfriend wash up and jump into 44 gallon
> > food grade trash cans and crush about 12-18 inches of grapes at a time. When
> > the grapes are properly crushed the stems separate easily and we just scoop
> > them out by hand. I have not noticed any harsh flavors in the wine and Jeff
> > Cox's book "From Vines to Wines" says he recommends this method for smaller
> > batches because it is fun. I agree and am planning to make 1000lbs of
> > cabernet the same way this season.
> >
> > -Alex
>
>
> Alex, the problem is not the stem himself. The problem is that you
> will damage the stem when you crush first with a crusher and you will
> get some harsh tannin for this reason and only if the stem are "green
> stem", ie. not fully mature wood. There is not problem (and it's the
> best way of adding natural tannin) with adding stem back to the
> primary fermenter if they had not been mechanically crushed. The way
> you are doing it is a very good technique for the wine and a funny
> traditionnal way