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  #41 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ray
 
Posts: n/a
Default The PA scale

Ok guys, here is my story. I did publish an article on alcohol
determination in wine in April/May WineMaker Mag. It was based on tables
and equations published by well known and respected authors in wine making.
There was very little that was original in the article. What prompted the
article was that I found that I could explain what appeared to be
differences in the predictions by the different authors and could show that
the apparently different tables were different realizations of the same
relationship.

Fred has brought the basic assumptions of the artcle under question --
namely that the original authors knew what they were talking about. I will
leave it to him to explain his objections.

I cannot defend the tables and data published by the original authors. I do
not have thier original data. I can only say that my paper was based on
well accepted, long standing publications and references were given. If
Fred wishes to queston thier work I wish he would publish references where
he shows that well respected authors counter the refferences I used or that
he publish raw data that discredits the tables that were published by the
original authors. If he cannot, the original authors work must stand as
valid. Silence is not an arguement.

Yes there are numerous different published meathods of calculating alcohol
level and some of them give very different results. I simply found that I
could relate some of them to each other. I do not say that the calculation
I suggest is better or worse than any of the others. I simply removed the
discrpancy between some of them. When I can show that seveal seemingly
differing meathods based on different assumptions are actually the same it
gives me a sence of confidence; but, which you use is up to you.

Frankly, I believe that the only way to clear this up is to find original
raw data that supports one meathod of the other. Lum has provided some data
that does not support the equations I used. Pp has provided some that seems
to support the data I used but are not ideal for the job. Pp also suggested
some second hand data that suggests that the equations might be acceptable
but this is not very valuable other than to point where I might find
supporting evidence. Of course, it can simply be said that "no serious
student of winemaking" would accept the data that supports the approach I
used but I cannot fight that kind of arguement. If the data is measured and
is there it can be accepted.

Sorry for the diatribe

Ray


  #42 (permalink)   Report Post  
pp
 
Posts: n/a
Default The PA scale

"frederick ploegman" > wrote in message >...
> >
> > Going back to Lum's post - the maximum theoretical yield of alcohol
> > form sugar is 51% by weight, which translates to 65% by volume.

>
> How did you arrive at this ??


Margalit, Concepts in Wine Chemistry, p. 57:
- 180g of sugar theoretically gives 92g of alcohol = 51% by weight
- sg of alcohol is 0.789 at 20C
- 51% (w)/0.789 = 65% (vol)
  #43 (permalink)   Report Post  
pp
 
Posts: n/a
Default The PA scale

"frederick ploegman" > wrote in message >...
> Ray
>
> We have _lots_ of experts in this group, and these experts have access
> to a wide variety of references. So why don't we just ask the folks
> here _point blank_, and see what they can come up with.
>
> Earlier, Andy wrote:
> "...My literature from UC Davis says (paraphrasing):
>
> The theoretic maximum yield of ethanol is around .6 times the initial
> Brix. This would give a maximum yield of 13.2 ABV for a 22 Brix must.
> My reference goes on to say that .55 times the initial brix is really
> all we can get in practice, which would yield around 12.1 ABV. This is
> because a varying percentage of the sugar is used for other things and
> even if the fermentation does not stick, there is a percentage of
> sugar that ends up as other end products (like glycerol, pyruvate,
> acetate, acetaldehyde)...."
>
> **Question to the group: Does _anyone_ out there have any modern
> reference that_contradicts_what UC Davis has to say on this subject
> in any substantive way ????? TIA
>
> Frederick
>


Margalit, who was already mentioned in this thread, has higher values.
In Concepts of Wine Chemistry, p. 57 - maximum theoretical yield comes
out as 65% by volume, average practical yield is estimated as 57% of
B, with references to literature that report experimental data in the
values of the actual measured yield of 55%-60% B.

Regards,

Pp
  #44 (permalink)   Report Post  
frederick ploegman
 
Posts: n/a
Default The PA scale


"Paul S. Remington" > wrote in message
om...
> "Ray" > wrote:
> <Snip!>
> > The calculation I use is that published by Duncan and Acton in

Progressive
> > Winemaking.
> > PA = (G begining - G ending) / F
> > Where
> > G = 1000 * (SG - 1) = gravity
> > and
> > F = 7.75 - 3*(G begining - 7) / 800

> <Snip!>
>
> Hello Ray, et al.,
>
> I ran my numbers for a Chardonnay in long-term aging to see what PA
> the formula above reports. I must be doing something wrong because
> the answer I'm getting is an impossible PA. Can someone run-through
> how they're determining the answer based on my SG? Either the formula
> is wrong or I'm wrong. Considering what I do for a living, I lean on
> the latter; I'm NOT a mathematician! Rather, I was a Liberal Arts
> major. :-)
>
> Beginning SG: 1.098
> Ending SG: .998
>
> The final alcohol rating I calculated with a hydrometer after
> fermentation completed was 13.75%.
>
> Much appreciated, gentleman!
>
> -Paul


Hi Paul

I'm not a mathematician either, so I will let those guys answer that part
of your post. Hydrometers and "standard" charts haven't changed in
my (long) life time, so I will continue to believe that they are the best
that "science" has been able to come up with (so far).

Here is how I would evaluate your wine:

Your ferment got stuck. You have about 2% residual sugar and your
alcohol is about 12.4%abv. I would not trust this wine to remain
stable in the bottle with this much remaining sugar in it.

I would taste it to confirm the presences of sugar and then test it with
clinitest to try to determine how much. If more than 0.5%RS, I would
stabilize by raising SO2 to not less than 0.83ppm molecular and add
enough sorbate to insure stability.

OTOH - You might decide you want to force it to go dry. To do this
with this much alcohol already present will be troublesome. Use a
very high alcohol tolerant yeast such as P. Cuvee (PdM) etc, and a
slow "doubling" procedure to let the yeast get used to the high
alcohol content. HTH

Frederick


  #45 (permalink)   Report Post  
Paul S. Remington
 
Posts: n/a
Default The PA scale

Hello Fred and thank you for the reply. Ray was the only one to reply
who might help determine the error in my calculations. Hopefully I'll
figure out what I did wrong.

Thanks also on the assessment of my wine. Although I'm happy to
report that my wine most definitely isn't stuck. Clinitest shows it's
bone dry, as do taste tests. Taste tests reveal a strong alcoholic
snap, reminiscent of a Washington state wine called Duck Pond, which
is about 14.5%. Dextrose additions raised Brix to 24 at start of
fermentation, so those yeasties had a lot to feed upon! I'd be
shocked if this were at the levels of my 2002 Seyval, which is at
about 12.5%.

I used Enoferm CY-3079 yeast, which is good up to about 14%
alcohol with decent temperature tolerance. Used Lallemand Go-Ferm
nutrient through primary and Fermaid-K nutrient after an eight Brix
drop. Also put it through ML fermentation using Enoferm Alpha
(Oenococcus oeni). Chromatography tests show ML fermentation
completed properly. It's in its eighth month storage on 10oz of
Stavin medium+ oak and I have to say with pride, it tastes damn
good!!! Creamy mouthfeel, slight hint of butter, nutty and complex
character, and the oak has integrated well over the entire flavor
profile. Can't wait to bottle the stuff and begin enjoying it, but
that won't happen until January or February 2005. Gotta fine and cold
stabilize first.

And I have to thank many of you in this newsgroup for coaching me
through various questions and issues. Mostly our resident Chardonnay
expert, Tom S.

Cheers All!

-Paul

"frederick ploegman" > wrote in message >...
> "Paul S. Remington" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Ray" > wrote:
> > <Snip!>
> > > The calculation I use is that published by Duncan and Acton in

> Progressive
> > > Winemaking.
> > > PA = (G begining - G ending) / F
> > > Where
> > > G = 1000 * (SG - 1) = gravity
> > > and
> > > F = 7.75 - 3*(G begining - 7) / 800

> > <Snip!>
> >
> > Hello Ray, et al.,
> >
> > I ran my numbers for a Chardonnay in long-term aging to see what PA
> > the formula above reports. I must be doing something wrong because
> > the answer I'm getting is an impossible PA. Can someone run-through
> > how they're determining the answer based on my SG? Either the formula
> > is wrong or I'm wrong. Considering what I do for a living, I lean on
> > the latter; I'm NOT a mathematician! Rather, I was a Liberal Arts
> > major. :-)
> >
> > Beginning SG: 1.098
> > Ending SG: .998
> >
> > The final alcohol rating I calculated with a hydrometer after
> > fermentation completed was 13.75%.
> >
> > Much appreciated, gentleman!
> >
> > -Paul

>
> Hi Paul
>
> I'm not a mathematician either, so I will let those guys answer that part
> of your post. Hydrometers and "standard" charts haven't changed in
> my (long) life time, so I will continue to believe that they are the best
> that "science" has been able to come up with (so far).
>
> Here is how I would evaluate your wine:
>
> Your ferment got stuck. You have about 2% residual sugar and your
> alcohol is about 12.4%abv. I would not trust this wine to remain
> stable in the bottle with this much remaining sugar in it.
>
> I would taste it to confirm the presences of sugar and then test it with
> clinitest to try to determine how much. If more than 0.5%RS, I would
> stabilize by raising SO2 to not less than 0.83ppm molecular and add
> enough sorbate to insure stability.
>
> OTOH - You might decide you want to force it to go dry. To do this
> with this much alcohol already present will be troublesome. Use a
> very high alcohol tolerant yeast such as P. Cuvee (PdM) etc, and a
> slow "doubling" procedure to let the yeast get used to the high
> alcohol content. HTH
>
> Frederick



  #46 (permalink)   Report Post  
frederick ploegman
 
Posts: n/a
Default The PA scale

Paul

Sorry. I would normally expect such a wine to have an end SG
reading of 0.988 rather than 0.998.

Frederick


"Paul S. Remington" > wrote in message
m...
> Hello Fred and thank you for the reply. Ray was the only one to reply
> who might help determine the error in my calculations. Hopefully I'll
> figure out what I did wrong.
>
> Thanks also on the assessment of my wine. Although I'm happy to
> report that my wine most definitely isn't stuck. Clinitest shows it's
> bone dry, as do taste tests. Taste tests reveal a strong alcoholic
> snap, reminiscent of a Washington state wine called Duck Pond, which
> is about 14.5%. Dextrose additions raised Brix to 24 at start of
> fermentation, so those yeasties had a lot to feed upon! I'd be
> shocked if this were at the levels of my 2002 Seyval, which is at
> about 12.5%.
>
> I used Enoferm CY-3079 yeast, which is good up to about 14%
> alcohol with decent temperature tolerance. Used Lallemand Go-Ferm
> nutrient through primary and Fermaid-K nutrient after an eight Brix
> drop. Also put it through ML fermentation using Enoferm Alpha
> (Oenococcus oeni). Chromatography tests show ML fermentation
> completed properly. It's in its eighth month storage on 10oz of
> Stavin medium+ oak and I have to say with pride, it tastes damn
> good!!! Creamy mouthfeel, slight hint of butter, nutty and complex
> character, and the oak has integrated well over the entire flavor
> profile. Can't wait to bottle the stuff and begin enjoying it, but
> that won't happen until January or February 2005. Gotta fine and cold
> stabilize first.
>
> And I have to thank many of you in this newsgroup for coaching me
> through various questions and issues. Mostly our resident Chardonnay
> expert, Tom S.
>
> Cheers All!
>
> -Paul
>
> "frederick ploegman" > wrote in message

>...
> > "Paul S. Remington" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > "Ray" > wrote:
> > > <Snip!>
> > > > The calculation I use is that published by Duncan and Acton in

> > Progressive
> > > > Winemaking.
> > > > PA = (G begining - G ending) / F
> > > > Where
> > > > G = 1000 * (SG - 1) = gravity
> > > > and
> > > > F = 7.75 - 3*(G begining - 7) / 800
> > > <Snip!>
> > >
> > > Hello Ray, et al.,
> > >
> > > I ran my numbers for a Chardonnay in long-term aging to see what PA
> > > the formula above reports. I must be doing something wrong because
> > > the answer I'm getting is an impossible PA. Can someone run-through
> > > how they're determining the answer based on my SG? Either the formula
> > > is wrong or I'm wrong. Considering what I do for a living, I lean on
> > > the latter; I'm NOT a mathematician! Rather, I was a Liberal Arts
> > > major. :-)
> > >
> > > Beginning SG: 1.098
> > > Ending SG: .998
> > >
> > > The final alcohol rating I calculated with a hydrometer after
> > > fermentation completed was 13.75%.
> > >
> > > Much appreciated, gentleman!
> > >
> > > -Paul

> >
> > Hi Paul
> >
> > I'm not a mathematician either, so I will let those guys answer that

part
> > of your post. Hydrometers and "standard" charts haven't changed in
> > my (long) life time, so I will continue to believe that they are the

best
> > that "science" has been able to come up with (so far).
> >
> > Here is how I would evaluate your wine:
> >
> > Your ferment got stuck. You have about 2% residual sugar and your
> > alcohol is about 12.4%abv. I would not trust this wine to remain
> > stable in the bottle with this much remaining sugar in it.
> >
> > I would taste it to confirm the presences of sugar and then test it with
> > clinitest to try to determine how much. If more than 0.5%RS, I would
> > stabilize by raising SO2 to not less than 0.83ppm molecular and add
> > enough sorbate to insure stability.
> >
> > OTOH - You might decide you want to force it to go dry. To do this
> > with this much alcohol already present will be troublesome. Use a
> > very high alcohol tolerant yeast such as P. Cuvee (PdM) etc, and a
> > slow "doubling" procedure to let the yeast get used to the high
> > alcohol content. HTH
> >
> > Frederick



  #47 (permalink)   Report Post  
frederick ploegman
 
Posts: n/a
Default The PA scale


"pp" > wrote in message
...
> "frederick ploegman" > wrote in message

>...
> > >
> > > Going back to Lum's post - the maximum theoretical yield of alcohol
> > > form sugar is 51% by weight, which translates to 65% by volume.

> >
> > How did you arrive at this ??

>
> Margalit, Concepts in Wine Chemistry, p. 57:
> - 180g of sugar theoretically gives 92g of alcohol = 51% by weight
> - sg of alcohol is 0.789 at 20C
> - 51% (w)/0.789 = 65% (vol)


This is the v/v for pure sugar. PA is ABV in water/wine.


  #48 (permalink)   Report Post  
Paul S. Remington
 
Posts: n/a
Default The PA scale

Hi Fred,

My feeling is alcohol levels reached upwards of 14%, which hindered
further fermentation. Needless to say, the wine is fully dry and in great
shape!

Thanks for your reply and all the best,

-Paul

"frederick ploegman" > wrote in message
...
> Paul
>
> Sorry. I would normally expect such a wine to have an end SG
> reading of 0.988 rather than 0.998.
>
> Frederick
>
>
> "Paul S. Remington" > wrote in message
> m...
> > Hello Fred and thank you for the reply. Ray was the only one to reply
> > who might help determine the error in my calculations. Hopefully I'll
> > figure out what I did wrong.
> >
> > Thanks also on the assessment of my wine. Although I'm happy to
> > report that my wine most definitely isn't stuck. Clinitest shows it's
> > bone dry, as do taste tests. Taste tests reveal a strong alcoholic
> > snap, reminiscent of a Washington state wine called Duck Pond, which
> > is about 14.5%. Dextrose additions raised Brix to 24 at start of
> > fermentation, so those yeasties had a lot to feed upon! I'd be
> > shocked if this were at the levels of my 2002 Seyval, which is at
> > about 12.5%.
> >
> > I used Enoferm CY-3079 yeast, which is good up to about 14%
> > alcohol with decent temperature tolerance. Used Lallemand Go-Ferm
> > nutrient through primary and Fermaid-K nutrient after an eight Brix
> > drop. Also put it through ML fermentation using Enoferm Alpha
> > (Oenococcus oeni). Chromatography tests show ML fermentation
> > completed properly. It's in its eighth month storage on 10oz of
> > Stavin medium+ oak and I have to say with pride, it tastes damn
> > good!!! Creamy mouthfeel, slight hint of butter, nutty and complex
> > character, and the oak has integrated well over the entire flavor
> > profile. Can't wait to bottle the stuff and begin enjoying it, but
> > that won't happen until January or February 2005. Gotta fine and cold
> > stabilize first.
> >
> > And I have to thank many of you in this newsgroup for coaching me
> > through various questions and issues. Mostly our resident Chardonnay
> > expert, Tom S.
> >
> > Cheers All!
> >
> > -Paul
> >
> > "frederick ploegman" > wrote in message

> >...
> > > "Paul S. Remington" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > > > "Ray" > wrote:
> > > > <Snip!>
> > > > > The calculation I use is that published by Duncan and Acton in
> > > Progressive
> > > > > Winemaking.
> > > > > PA = (G begining - G ending) / F
> > > > > Where
> > > > > G = 1000 * (SG - 1) = gravity
> > > > > and
> > > > > F = 7.75 - 3*(G begining - 7) / 800
> > > > <Snip!>
> > > >
> > > > Hello Ray, et al.,
> > > >
> > > > I ran my numbers for a Chardonnay in long-term aging to see what PA
> > > > the formula above reports. I must be doing something wrong because
> > > > the answer I'm getting is an impossible PA. Can someone run-through
> > > > how they're determining the answer based on my SG? Either the

formula
> > > > is wrong or I'm wrong. Considering what I do for a living, I lean

on
> > > > the latter; I'm NOT a mathematician! Rather, I was a Liberal Arts
> > > > major. :-)
> > > >
> > > > Beginning SG: 1.098
> > > > Ending SG: .998
> > > >
> > > > The final alcohol rating I calculated with a hydrometer after
> > > > fermentation completed was 13.75%.
> > > >
> > > > Much appreciated, gentleman!
> > > >
> > > > -Paul
> > >
> > > Hi Paul
> > >
> > > I'm not a mathematician either, so I will let those guys answer that

> part
> > > of your post. Hydrometers and "standard" charts haven't changed in
> > > my (long) life time, so I will continue to believe that they are the

> best
> > > that "science" has been able to come up with (so far).
> > >
> > > Here is how I would evaluate your wine:
> > >
> > > Your ferment got stuck. You have about 2% residual sugar and your
> > > alcohol is about 12.4%abv. I would not trust this wine to remain
> > > stable in the bottle with this much remaining sugar in it.
> > >
> > > I would taste it to confirm the presences of sugar and then test it

with
> > > clinitest to try to determine how much. If more than 0.5%RS, I would
> > > stabilize by raising SO2 to not less than 0.83ppm molecular and add
> > > enough sorbate to insure stability.
> > >
> > > OTOH - You might decide you want to force it to go dry. To do this
> > > with this much alcohol already present will be troublesome. Use a
> > > very high alcohol tolerant yeast such as P. Cuvee (PdM) etc, and a
> > > slow "doubling" procedure to let the yeast get used to the high
> > > alcohol content. HTH
> > >
> > > Frederick

>
>



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