Just an observation, I store all my wine in our basement. And as I build up
my stock (so to speak), I have had a small concern that maybe my basement
isn't the best place, but better than anywhere else in my house. The
difference in the temperatures down there is about 10 degrees from winter to
summer - it is dark, and generally very little vibration. I've always had
wine stored in my basement since we moved here 14 years ago, although I
didn't start my wine-making until 3 years ago. Not all of us can spend the
big $ to protect our wine, but we do the best we can. Needless to say, I
was pleased when I opened up a 1994 Cabernet Sauvignon over the past
weekend - the wine was very, very good. How's everyone else's wine storage
working out?

Darlene
G'town, Wisconsin
USA

Dar V wrote:
<snip>

How's everyone else's wine storage
> working out?

Darlene,

About 6 yrs ago, I partitioned off a corner of my basement with
insulated walls & ceiling. The temperature gradually swings from about
55°F to about 70°F in August. As far as I can tell, the wines hold up
fine. Maybe a little too well, in fact, as some of the reds seem a
little slow to develop. But in general, I think it's as close to ideal
as it needs to be.



--


Mike MTM, Cokesbury, New Jersey, USA

On 5/11/04 3:35 PM, in article , "Dar
V" > wrote:

> Just an observation, I store all my wine in our basement. And as I build up
> my stock (so to speak), I have had a small concern that maybe my basement
> isn't the best place, but better than anywhere else in my house. The
> difference in the temperatures down there is about 10 degrees from winter to
> summer - it is dark, and generally very little vibration. I've always had
> wine stored in my basement since we moved here 14 years ago, although I
> didn't start my wine-making until 3 years ago. Not all of us can spend the
> big $ to protect our wine, but we do the best we can. Needless to say, I
> was pleased when I opened up a 1994 Cabernet Sauvignon over the past
> weekend - the wine was very, very good. How's everyone else's wine storage
> working out?
>
> Darlene
> G'town, Wisconsin
> USA
>
>

The two most important things to do is keep it in the dark and keep the
temperature (whatever it is) as constant as possible. It sounds like your
basement is ideal. Slow temp changes of 10 degrees from summer to winter is
GREAT.

I've stored my wines in my basement with a bit more fluctuation of
temperature. I'm really lucky to have a brand new basementroom that was just
poured for my new home addition. I will insulate the walls and make this my
wine cellar-tasting room. Oh, I can't wait. You can find pictures on my
website of my winecellar.


--
Greg Cook
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/aws

(remove spamblocker from my email)

Dar & et al:

Oh how I wish I had a basement! After filling the only downstairs closet
beyond capacity a few years ago an edict from the boss (which went something
like " do something about your wines I want my closet back"!) forced me to
design a wine closet UPSTAIRS in my large study. Built and insulated a
double door 600 bottle wine closet finished in oak. Since it was upstairs
and heat would be an issue in the summer it includes a Vinotemp wine cooler
that keeps my wine 58 degrees and 70% humidity. Gotta admit it turned out
great! If she only knew how much it cost! Sh.......

Tom
"Dar V" > wrote in message
...
> Just an observation, I store all my wine in our basement. And as I build
up
> my stock (so to speak), I have had a small concern that maybe my basement
> isn't the best place, but better than anywhere else in my house. The
> difference in the temperatures down there is about 10 degrees from winter
to
> summer - it is dark, and generally very little vibration. I've always
had
> wine stored in my basement since we moved here 14 years ago, although I
> didn't start my wine-making until 3 years ago. Not all of us can spend
the
> big $ to protect our wine, but we do the best we can. Needless to say, I
> was pleased when I opened up a 1994 Cabernet Sauvignon over the past
> weekend - the wine was very, very good. How's everyone else's wine
storage
> working out?
>
> Darlene
> G'town, Wisconsin
> USA
>
>

Hi Greg,
Please explain why the wine should be kept in the dark. I have see this item
in many home brewers (wine) books. There is no explanation of why. In beer
there is the chemical change in the hop compounds due to UV light. Why do
we, as wine makers always state that light is bad for wine. Is there a
scientific back ground? If there is please post it.
Thanks,
Eddie V.
The Wine And Beer Factory.

"Greg Cook" > wrote in message
s.com...
> On 5/11/04 3:35 PM, in article ,
"Dar
> V" > wrote:
>
> > Just an observation, I store all my wine in our basement. And as I
build up
> > my stock (so to speak), I have had a small concern that maybe my
basement
> > isn't the best place, but better than anywhere else in my house. The
> > difference in the temperatures down there is about 10 degrees from
winter to
> > summer - it is dark, and generally very little vibration. I've always
had
> > wine stored in my basement since we moved here 14 years ago, although I
> > didn't start my wine-making until 3 years ago. Not all of us can spend
the
> > big $ to protect our wine, but we do the best we can. Needless to say,
I
> > was pleased when I opened up a 1994 Cabernet Sauvignon over the past
> > weekend - the wine was very, very good. How's everyone else's wine
storage
> > working out?
> >
> > Darlene
> > G'town, Wisconsin
> > USA
> >
> >
>
> The two most important things to do is keep it in the dark and keep the
> temperature (whatever it is) as constant as possible. It sounds like your
> basement is ideal. Slow temp changes of 10 degrees from summer to winter
is
> GREAT.
>
> I've stored my wines in my basement with a bit more fluctuation of
> temperature. I'm really lucky to have a brand new basementroom that was
just
> poured for my new home addition. I will insulate the walls and make this
my
> wine cellar-tasting room. Oh, I can't wait. You can find pictures on my
> website of my winecellar.
>
>
> --
> Greg Cook
> http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine
> http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/aws
>
> (remove spamblocker from my email)
>

Yeah. I always read that light doesn't affect wine. If it did, you would
think there would be brown wine bottles.

"Sabia Vanderzeeuw" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Greg,
> Please explain why the wine should be kept in the dark. I have see this
item
> in many home brewers (wine) books. There is no explanation of why. In beer
> there is the chemical change in the hop compounds due to UV light. Why do
> we, as wine makers always state that light is bad for wine. Is there a
> scientific back ground? If there is please post it.
> Thanks,
> Eddie V.
> The Wine And Beer Factory.
>
> "Greg Cook" > wrote in message
> s.com...
> > On 5/11/04 3:35 PM, in article ,
> "Dar
> > V" > wrote:
> >
> > > Just an observation, I store all my wine in our basement. And as I
> build up
> > > my stock (so to speak), I have had a small concern that maybe my
> basement
> > > isn't the best place, but better than anywhere else in my house. The
> > > difference in the temperatures down there is about 10 degrees from
> winter to
> > > summer - it is dark, and generally very little vibration. I've
always
> had
> > > wine stored in my basement since we moved here 14 years ago, although
I
> > > didn't start my wine-making until 3 years ago. Not all of us can
spend
> the
> > > big $ to protect our wine, but we do the best we can. Needless to
say,
> I
> > > was pleased when I opened up a 1994 Cabernet Sauvignon over the past
> > > weekend - the wine was very, very good. How's everyone else's wine
> storage
> > > working out?
> > >
> > > Darlene
> > > G'town, Wisconsin
> > > USA
> > >
> > >
> >
> > The two most important things to do is keep it in the dark and keep the
> > temperature (whatever it is) as constant as possible. It sounds like
your
> > basement is ideal. Slow temp changes of 10 degrees from summer to winter
> is
> > GREAT.
> >
> > I've stored my wines in my basement with a bit more fluctuation of
> > temperature. I'm really lucky to have a brand new basementroom that was
> just
> > poured for my new home addition. I will insulate the walls and make this
> my
> > wine cellar-tasting room. Oh, I can't wait. You can find pictures on my
> > website of my winecellar.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Greg Cook
> > http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine
> > http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/aws
> >
> > (remove spamblocker from my email)
> >
>
>

On 5/12/04 9:00 PM, in article
, "Sabia Vanderzeeuw"
> wrote:

> Hi Greg,
> Please explain why the wine should be kept in the dark. I have see this item
> in many home brewers (wine) books. There is no explanation of why. In beer
> there is the chemical change in the hop compounds due to UV light. Why do
> we, as wine makers always state that light is bad for wine. Is there a
> scientific back ground? If there is please post it.
> Thanks,
> Eddie V.
> The Wine And Beer Factory.
>

There are a lot of chemical reactions that are induced by absorption of
light. Wine has many colored components in it - which means it's absorbing
light at certain wavelengths. Light will degrade these. I'm not sure what
kind of explanation you want. Light can induce polymerization of polyphenols
for example. The bottom line is, color and flavors can be harmed by light
and wine will "age" faster in light than in the dark.

--
Greg Cook
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/aws

(remove spamblocker from my email)

On 5/13/04 7:49 AM, in article , "Adam
Lang" > wrote:

> Yeah. I always read that light doesn't affect wine. If it did, you would
> think there would be brown wine bottles.
>

Well, there are brown wine bottles!

Have you noticed that wines intended for some time to age in the bottle -
namely red wines - are always bottled in green glass? This is one way to
protect it from light. White wines are often bottled in clear glass - less
components in it that absorb the light energy and usually drunk at an
earlier age.

--
Greg Cook
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/aws

(remove spamblocker from my email)

I was told green bottles do nothing.

"Greg Cook" > wrote in message
s.com...
> On 5/13/04 7:49 AM, in article , "Adam
> Lang" > wrote:
>
>
> Well, there are brown wine bottles!
>
> Have you noticed that wines intended for some time to age in the bottle -
> namely red wines - are always bottled in green glass? This is one way to
> protect it from light. White wines are often bottled in clear glass - less
> components in it that absorb the light energy and usually drunk at an
> earlier age.

On 5/13/04 12:03 PM, in article , "Adam
Lang" > wrote:

> I was told green bottles do nothing.
>
> "Greg Cook" > wrote in message
> s.com...
>> On 5/13/04 7:49 AM, in article , "Adam
>> Lang" > wrote:
>>
>>
>> Well, there are brown wine bottles!
>>
>> Have you noticed that wines intended for some time to age in the bottle -
>> namely red wines - are always bottled in green glass? This is one way to
>> protect it from light. White wines are often bottled in clear glass - less
>> components in it that absorb the light energy and usually drunk at an
>> earlier age.
>
>
Well, they do not stop much of the UV light, which is the really
problematic light - but it will limit some of the visible light. This will
help in preventing color fading of wine.

--
Greg Cook
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/aws

(remove spamblocker from my email)

We keep ours in a cold room under the garage. 50-55f during the winter with
a gradual warm up to 70-72f during the summer. It's almost always dark since
we don't use this room often but even with the lights on it's not very
bright.
Here's our goofy set-up )
http://pages.infinit.net/weez1959/images/winerack.jpg
Louise
Otterburn Park, Quebec
Canada

"Greg Cook" > wrote in message
s.com...
> On 5/13/04 12:03 PM, in article , "Adam
> Lang" > wrote:
>
> > I was told green bottles do nothing.
> >
> > "Greg Cook" > wrote in message
> > s.com...
> >> On 5/13/04 7:49 AM, in article ,
"Adam
> >> Lang" > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Well, there are brown wine bottles!
> >>
> >> Have you noticed that wines intended for some time to age in the
bottle -
> >> namely red wines - are always bottled in green glass? This is one way
to
> >> protect it from light. White wines are often bottled in clear glass -
less
> >> components in it that absorb the light energy and usually drunk at an
> >> earlier age.
> >
> >
> Well, they do not stop much of the UV light, which is the really
> problematic light - but it will limit some of the visible light. This will
> help in preventing color fading of wine.
>
> --
> Greg Cook
> http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine
> http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/aws
>
> (remove spamblocker from my email)
>

Have you noticed how curtains hung in a sunlit room tend to fade after a few
years? Light will do the same to wine. A glorious red grape will fade
toward rose. A beautiful berry wine will fade almost to clear. As it
fades, it's flavor is effected as well, not just the color. Over a long
period of time light can do a lot to anything left in it.

Green bottles may or may not help protect the wine. I always bottle dark
wines in dark bottles. But one thing is for sure. Keeping them in a dark
room will DEFINITELY help.

Ray

"Sabia Vanderzeeuw" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Greg,
> Please explain why the wine should be kept in the dark. I have see this
item
> in many home brewers (wine) books. There is no explanation of why. In beer
> there is the chemical change in the hop compounds due to UV light. Why do
> we, as wine makers always state that light is bad for wine. Is there a
> scientific back ground? If there is please post it.
> Thanks,
> Eddie V.
> The Wine And Beer Factory.
>
> "Greg Cook" > wrote in message
> s.com...
> > On 5/11/04 3:35 PM, in article ,
> "Dar
> > V" > wrote:
> >
> > > Just an observation, I store all my wine in our basement. And as I
> build up
> > > my stock (so to speak), I have had a small concern that maybe my
> basement
> > > isn't the best place, but better than anywhere else in my house. The
> > > difference in the temperatures down there is about 10 degrees from
> winter to
> > > summer - it is dark, and generally very little vibration. I've
always
> had
> > > wine stored in my basement since we moved here 14 years ago, although
I
> > > didn't start my wine-making until 3 years ago. Not all of us can
spend
> the
> > > big $ to protect our wine, but we do the best we can. Needless to
say,
> I
> > > was pleased when I opened up a 1994 Cabernet Sauvignon over the past
> > > weekend - the wine was very, very good. How's everyone else's wine
> storage
> > > working out?
> > >
> > > Darlene
> > > G'town, Wisconsin
> > > USA
> > >
> > >
> >
> > The two most important things to do is keep it in the dark and keep the
> > temperature (whatever it is) as constant as possible. It sounds like
your
> > basement is ideal. Slow temp changes of 10 degrees from summer to winter
> is
> > GREAT.
> >
> > I've stored my wines in my basement with a bit more fluctuation of
> > temperature. I'm really lucky to have a brand new basementroom that was
> just
> > poured for my new home addition. I will insulate the walls and make this
> my
> > wine cellar-tasting room. Oh, I can't wait. You can find pictures on my
> > website of my winecellar.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Greg Cook
> > http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine
> > http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/aws
> >
> > (remove spamblocker from my email)
> >
>
>

Thanks Greg,
The many compounds in wine will definitely absorb some wave lengths of light
specific to the compound. Polymerization or break down can occur.
Polyphenols can also break down due to UV light. There are hundreds of
compounds in wine. I would like to know what families are involved with
polymerization or break down due to light. Are the flavonoids involved and
are cinnamic acid family (phenolic compounds) involved? There are many more
non phenolic groups are they involved?
Eddie V.

"Greg Cook" > wrote in message
s.com...
> On 5/12/04 9:00 PM, in article
> , "Sabia Vanderzeeuw"
> > wrote:
>
> > Hi Greg,
> > Please explain why the wine should be kept in the dark. I have see this
item
> > in many home brewers (wine) books. There is no explanation of why. In
beer
> > there is the chemical change in the hop compounds due to UV light. Why
do
> > we, as wine makers always state that light is bad for wine. Is there a
> > scientific back ground? If there is please post it.
> > Thanks,
> > Eddie V.
> > The Wine And Beer Factory.
> >
>
> There are a lot of chemical reactions that are induced by absorption of
> light. Wine has many colored components in it - which means it's absorbing
> light at certain wavelengths. Light will degrade these. I'm not sure what
> kind of explanation you want. Light can induce polymerization of
polyphenols
> for example. The bottom line is, color and flavors can be harmed by light
> and wine will "age" faster in light than in the dark.
>
> --
> Greg Cook
> http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine
> http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/aws
>
> (remove spamblocker from my email)
>

On 5/13/04 8:43 PM, in article ,
"Sabia Vanderzeeuw" > wrote:

> Thanks Greg,
> The many compounds in wine will definitely absorb some wave lengths of light
> specific to the compound. Polymerization or break down can occur.
> Polyphenols can also break down due to UV light. There are hundreds of
> compounds in wine. I would like to know what families are involved with
> polymerization or break down due to light. Are the flavonoids involved and
> are cinnamic acid family (phenolic compounds) involved? There are many more
> non phenolic groups are they involved?
> Eddie V.

Eddie,

Great questions. As a chemist, my chemical intuition tells me that any
highly conjugated compound in wine has a potential to degrade due to light.
This would certainly include phenolics, flavanoids and cinnamates. However,
I don't know specifically what studies have been done on this. If I can find
some time in the near future, I'll see what I can find in the scientific
literature and forward that on to you.

--
Greg Cook
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/aws

(remove spamblocker from my email)

On 05/13/2004 06:24 PM, Weez said:
> We keep ours in a cold room under the garage. 50-55f during the winter with
> a gradual warm up to 70-72f during the summer. It's almost always dark since
> we don't use this room often but even with the lights on it's not very
> bright.
> Here's our goofy set-up )
> http://pages.infinit.net/weez1959/images/winerack.jpg
> Louise
> Otterburn Park, Quebec
> Canada
>

Wow, you store wine in your torture chamber?!
I keep all food products away from mine for health reasons.
;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

That is a pretty 'goofy set-up'!! :-)


--
Joe
http://www.joekaz.net/
http://www.cafeshops.com/joekaz

Torture chamber/wine cellar, eh, no difference P
We also make our Lagers in there during the winter. We only use the room on
really hot summer days and of course for Halloween. Other than that it's a
great wine cellar.
Louise)

"Joe" > wrote in message
...
> On 05/13/2004 06:24 PM, Weez said:
> > We keep ours in a cold room under the garage. 50-55f during the winter
with
> > a gradual warm up to 70-72f during the summer. It's almost always dark
since
> > we don't use this room often but even with the lights on it's not very
> > bright.
> > Here's our goofy set-up )
> > http://pages.infinit.net/weez1959/images/winerack.jpg
> > Louise
> > Otterburn Park, Quebec
> > Canada
> >
>
> Wow, you store wine in your torture chamber?!
> I keep all food products away from mine for health reasons.
> ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
>
> That is a pretty 'goofy set-up'!! :-)
>
>
> --
> Joe
> http://www.joekaz.net/
> http://www.cafeshops.com/joekaz
>

Thank Greg,
That would be great if you can find any, thanks Greg.
This is a mystery that most wine related universities do not want to get
into (no finance). There studies are quality related but do not include
storage conditions As yet quality going into the bottle is more important
than the storage condition. The influence of light and UV on storage has not
seen a lot of research (no funding) to bad as we as wine makers could learn
a lot of this.
The brown bottles used in beer reflect a lot (90%) of the UV radiation.
While the green bottles only reflect 30 %. the Grolsch beer supplied in
green bottles often has a "scunky aroma and taste". A mercaptan forms from
the hop compounds due to UV radiation of the cynamatic acids group (sp?) of
the hops in the beer. This is a know problem.
On the other hand; tannins soften due to polymerization, would a certain
wave length of light increase this? Then we would find a way to age wines
faster (without magnets!), but there always is a negative. What would be the
negative?
Eddie V.

"Greg Cook" > wrote in message
s.com...
> On 5/13/04 8:43 PM, in article
,
> "Sabia Vanderzeeuw" > wrote:
>
> > Thanks Greg,
> > The many compounds in wine will definitely absorb some wave lengths of
light
> > specific to the compound. Polymerization or break down can occur.
> > Polyphenols can also break down due to UV light. There are hundreds of
> > compounds in wine. I would like to know what families are involved with
> > polymerization or break down due to light. Are the flavonoids involved
and
> > are cinnamic acid family (phenolic compounds) involved? There are many
more
> > non phenolic groups are they involved?
> > Eddie V.
>
> Eddie,
>
> Great questions. As a chemist, my chemical intuition tells me that any
> highly conjugated compound in wine has a potential to degrade due to
light.
> This would certainly include phenolics, flavanoids and cinnamates.
However,
> I don't know specifically what studies have been done on this. If I can
find
> some time in the near future, I'll see what I can find in the scientific
> literature and forward that on to you.
>
> --
> Greg Cook
> http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine
> http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/aws
>
> (remove spamblocker from my email)
>

Hi All,
This is not a discussion between Greg and me; please join in! This is one of
the great wine mysteries. Myth does not have a place in wine making anymore.
Clear bottles are a marketing thing!
Green bottles reduce UV only to a very limited extent.
The colour of a traditional wine bottle has to do with the base material
available to the bottle maker not to what is best for the wine! Just stating
that dark coloured bottles, green or brown, are the best for red wine is not
an answer. What is the effect of the many frequencies of light on wine?
Eddie V.
"Sabia Vanderzeeuw" > wrote in message
...
> Thank Greg,
> That would be great if you can find any, thanks Greg.
> This is a mystery that most wine related universities do not want to get
> into (no finance). There studies are quality related but do not include
> storage conditions As yet quality going into the bottle is more
important
> than the storage condition. The influence of light and UV on storage has
not
> seen a lot of research (no funding) to bad as we as wine makers could
learn
> a lot of this.
> The brown bottles used in beer reflect a lot (90%) of the UV radiation.
> While the green bottles only reflect 30 %. the Grolsch beer supplied in
> green bottles often has a "scunky aroma and taste". A mercaptan forms from
> the hop compounds due to UV radiation of the cynamatic acids group (sp?)
of
> the hops in the beer. This is a know problem.
> On the other hand; tannins soften due to polymerization, would a certain
> wave length of light increase this? Then we would find a way to age wines
> faster (without magnets!), but there always is a negative. What would be
the
> negative?
> Eddie V.
>
> "Greg Cook" > wrote in message
> s.com...
> > On 5/13/04 8:43 PM, in article
> ,
> > "Sabia Vanderzeeuw" > wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks Greg,
> > > The many compounds in wine will definitely absorb some wave lengths of
> light
> > > specific to the compound. Polymerization or break down can occur.
> > > Polyphenols can also break down due to UV light. There are hundreds of
> > > compounds in wine. I would like to know what families are involved
with
> > > polymerization or break down due to light. Are the flavonoids involved
> and
> > > are cinnamic acid family (phenolic compounds) involved? There are many
> more
> > > non phenolic groups are they involved?
> > > Eddie V.
> >
> > Eddie,
> >
> > Great questions. As a chemist, my chemical intuition tells me that any
> > highly conjugated compound in wine has a potential to degrade due to
> light.
> > This would certainly include phenolics, flavanoids and cinnamates.
> However,
> > I don't know specifically what studies have been done on this. If I can
> find
> > some time in the near future, I'll see what I can find in the scientific
> > literature and forward that on to you.
> >
> > --
> > Greg Cook
> > http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine
> > http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/aws
> >
> > (remove spamblocker from my email)
> >
>
>

Eddie;
See 'Principles and Practices of Winemaking' by Boulton et al page
422. In short the shorter wavelengths are the most problematic and
have the most potential to cause chemical changes. It 'catalyses
consumption of oxygen and acheivement of rest potential'. (I'm not a
chemist, just giving you the info you requested.) They suggest opaque,
black or dark red would be best to exclude these wavelengths. None of
this matters if the wine is stored in a box or stored in the dark and
all wine is shipped in an overpack of some sort.

Mine is staying in the cellar, along with my beer. I use more green
than anything else and we use green Grolsch bottles for most of our
beer too. We buy it by the case so I never had a skunky one by the
way. I have no idea why they switched from brown to green, old
Grolsch bottles were brown. The only time my beer or wine is exposed
to sunlight is when we are consuming it, sunlight doesn't get much of
a chance to do much... )

A lot of good Italian and German wines do come in brown bottles. I
use brown too.
Regards,
Joe


Regards,
Joe

"Sabia Vanderzeeuw" > wrote in message m>...
> Hi All,
> This is not a discussion between Greg and me; please join in! This is one of
> the great wine mysteries. Myth does not have a place in wine making anymore.
> Clear bottles are a marketing thing!
> Green bottles reduce UV only to a very limited extent.
> The colour of a traditional wine bottle has to do with the base material
> available to the bottle maker not to what is best for the wine! Just stating
> that dark coloured bottles, green or brown, are the best for red wine is not
> an answer. What is the effect of the many frequencies of light on wine?

Thanks Joe,
I'll go hunting for that book.
Eddie V.
Brampton Ontario

"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
m...
> Eddie;
> See 'Principles and Practices of Winemaking' by Boulton et al page
> 422. In short the shorter wavelengths are the most problematic and
> have the most potential to cause chemical changes. It 'catalyses
> consumption of oxygen and acheivement of rest potential'. (I'm not a
> chemist, just giving you the info you requested.) They suggest opaque,
> black or dark red would be best to exclude these wavelengths. None of
> this matters if the wine is stored in a box or stored in the dark and
> all wine is shipped in an overpack of some sort.
>
> Mine is staying in the cellar, along with my beer. I use more green
> than anything else and we use green Grolsch bottles for most of our
> beer too. We buy it by the case so I never had a skunky one by the
> way. I have no idea why they switched from brown to green, old
> Grolsch bottles were brown. The only time my beer or wine is exposed
> to sunlight is when we are consuming it, sunlight doesn't get much of
> a chance to do much... )
>
> A lot of good Italian and German wines do come in brown bottles. I
> use brown too.
> Regards,
> Joe
>
>
> Regards,
> Joe
>
> "Sabia Vanderzeeuw" > wrote in message
m>...
> > Hi All,
> > This is not a discussion between Greg and me; please join in! This is
one of
> > the great wine mysteries. Myth does not have a place in wine making
anymore.
> > Clear bottles are a marketing thing!
> > Green bottles reduce UV only to a very limited extent.
> > The colour of a traditional wine bottle has to do with the base material
> > available to the bottle maker not to what is best for the wine! Just
stating
> > that dark coloured bottles, green or brown, are the best for red wine is
not
> > an answer. What is the effect of the many frequencies of light on wine?

Hello, I've been ghosting this list for several months now and thought I
should say Hi. Hello!

Light of short wavelengths ie blue, violet, and UV have the ability to
dislodge electrons from atoms and molecules. This can cause one molecule to
split into two or more or make a new molecule by addition of a atom, ion or
the like. The reason for the colours to be in the blue range is that they
carry enough energy to kick that electron out of its natural state changing
the bonding tendencies of a given compond. This is also the reason why UV
gives us cancer, it changes our DNA (creates G dimers). With out getting
into to much quantum physics I can safely say that you can shine as much
red light on wine, as long as it does not change the temperature, and no
"artifical aging" will occur because of the red light exposure.

As for the bottle colour, you could have a clear bottle that will block
100% UVA and UVB light (UVC has to be artificially created since very
little makes it to earth). So I would say that the best bottle would be
made out of a UV absorbing (I believe boro-silicate glass is one, Pyrex)
with colourants that will absorb/reflect the blues and violets ie a blue
bottle. Now the price for such a bottle would be very high and it is not
very necessary as long as the wine is kept in a dark place. That said you
do not want to start spraying the room walls with a UV absorber and
painting the bottles with a UV Scatterer (titanium dioxide) because it will
slow your aging dramaticly, as the saying goes everying in moderation. Now
all we have to do is decide what moderation means!!

well thats my two cents worth.

Rob

Joe Sallustio wrote:

> Eddie;
> See 'Principles and Practices of Winemaking' by Boulton et al page
> 422. In short the shorter wavelengths are the most problematic and
> have the most potential to cause chemical changes. It 'catalyses
> consumption of oxygen and acheivement of rest potential'. (I'm not a
> chemist, just giving you the info you requested.) They suggest opaque,
> black or dark red would be best to exclude these wavelengths. None of
> this matters if the wine is stored in a box or stored in the dark and
> all wine is shipped in an overpack of some sort.
>
> Mine is staying in the cellar, along with my beer. I use more green
> than anything else and we use green Grolsch bottles for most of our
> beer too. We buy it by the case so I never had a skunky one by the
> way. I have no idea why they switched from brown to green, old
> Grolsch bottles were brown. The only time my beer or wine is exposed
> to sunlight is when we are consuming it, sunlight doesn't get much of
> a chance to do much... )
>
> A lot of good Italian and German wines do come in brown bottles. I
> use brown too.
> Regards,
> Joe
>
>
> Regards,
> Joe
>
> "Sabia Vanderzeeuw" > wrote in message
> m>...
>> Hi All,
>> This is not a discussion between Greg and me; please join in! This is one
>> of the great wine mysteries. Myth does not have a place in wine making
>> anymore. Clear bottles are a marketing thing!
>> Green bottles reduce UV only to a very limited extent.
>> The colour of a traditional wine bottle has to do with the base material
>> available to the bottle maker not to what is best for the wine! Just
>> stating that dark coloured bottles, green or brown, are the best for red
>> wine is not an answer. What is the effect of the many frequencies of
>> light on wine?

"Sabia Vanderzeeuw" > wrote in message m>...
the Grolsch beer supplied in
> green bottles often has a "scunky aroma and taste".


I think the "skunky taste you are speaking of (also found in other
european lagers) is merely the flavor of the hops they use over
there......different altogether in taste than american/canadian
beers..just different not bad neccessarily.......Andy J.

Hi Rob,
What you are stating is quite correct and well known. I do not dispute the
action of "high" frequency "light". My question is what compounds are
involved? Hence the analogy with beer. There, it was found that one family
of compounds caused the problem. The hop people changed the compounds and
now we can "enjoy" beer in a clear bottle. My question really comes down to
"can this be done to wine"? Is there a way to alter the compounds that cause
the negative flavour change in a way to reduce the flavour change. Thus we
have to identify the compounds responsible for the flavour change to begin
with. So what are they???
I hope this is understandable,
Eddie V.

"Rob A" > wrote in message
...
> Hello, I've been ghosting this list for several months now and thought I
> should say Hi. Hello!
>
> Light of short wavelengths ie blue, violet, and UV have the ability to
> dislodge electrons from atoms and molecules. This can cause one molecule
to
> split into two or more or make a new molecule by addition of a atom, ion
or
> the like. The reason for the colours to be in the blue range is that they
> carry enough energy to kick that electron out of its natural state
changing
> the bonding tendencies of a given compond. This is also the reason why UV
> gives us cancer, it changes our DNA (creates G dimers). With out getting
> into to much quantum physics I can safely say that you can shine as much
> red light on wine, as long as it does not change the temperature, and no
> "artifical aging" will occur because of the red light exposure.
>
> As for the bottle colour, you could have a clear bottle that will block
> 100% UVA and UVB light (UVC has to be artificially created since very
> little makes it to earth). So I would say that the best bottle would be
> made out of a UV absorbing (I believe boro-silicate glass is one, Pyrex)
> with colourants that will absorb/reflect the blues and violets ie a blue
> bottle. Now the price for such a bottle would be very high and it is not
> very necessary as long as the wine is kept in a dark place. That said you
> do not want to start spraying the room walls with a UV absorber and
> painting the bottles with a UV Scatterer (titanium dioxide) because it
will
> slow your aging dramaticly, as the saying goes everying in moderation. Now
> all we have to do is decide what moderation means!!
>
> well thats my two cents worth.
>
> Rob
>
> Joe Sallustio wrote:
>
> > Eddie;
> > See 'Principles and Practices of Winemaking' by Boulton et al page
> > 422. In short the shorter wavelengths are the most problematic and
> > have the most potential to cause chemical changes. It 'catalyses
> > consumption of oxygen and acheivement of rest potential'. (I'm not a
> > chemist, just giving you the info you requested.) They suggest opaque,
> > black or dark red would be best to exclude these wavelengths. None of
> > this matters if the wine is stored in a box or stored in the dark and
> > all wine is shipped in an overpack of some sort.
> >
> > Mine is staying in the cellar, along with my beer. I use more green
> > than anything else and we use green Grolsch bottles for most of our
> > beer too. We buy it by the case so I never had a skunky one by the
> > way. I have no idea why they switched from brown to green, old
> > Grolsch bottles were brown. The only time my beer or wine is exposed
> > to sunlight is when we are consuming it, sunlight doesn't get much of
> > a chance to do much... )
> >
> > A lot of good Italian and German wines do come in brown bottles. I
> > use brown too.
> > Regards,
> > Joe
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > Joe
> >
> > "Sabia Vanderzeeuw" > wrote in message
> > m>...
> >> Hi All,
> >> This is not a discussion between Greg and me; please join in! This is
one
> >> of the great wine mysteries. Myth does not have a place in wine making
> >> anymore. Clear bottles are a marketing thing!
> >> Green bottles reduce UV only to a very limited extent.
> >> The colour of a traditional wine bottle has to do with the base
material
> >> available to the bottle maker not to what is best for the wine! Just
> >> stating that dark coloured bottles, green or brown, are the best for
red
> >> wine is not an answer. What is the effect of the many frequencies of
> >> light on wine?
>

Hi Andy J.
All hops came for Europe (actually the middle east). The most expensive hops
(not available to us home brewers) are still the European hops. I travel
quite a bit and have drunk the same beer in its home area. No skunk to be
found in that beer. The skunk shows up when the beer sits on the tarmac for
four or five hours because of technical problems with the airplane. Or
because the beer sits in the store for some days to weeks under fluorescent
light (high in UV light). The American/Canadian hops, those hops go skunky
under the same conditions.
Eddie V.
"Andy j." > wrote in message
om...
> "Sabia Vanderzeeuw" > wrote in message
m>...
> the Grolsch beer supplied in
> > green bottles often has a "scunky aroma and taste".
>
>
> I think the "skunky taste you are speaking of (also found in other
> european lagers) is merely the flavor of the hops they use over
> there......different altogether in taste than american/canadian
> beers..just different not bad neccessarily.......Andy J.

"Rob A" > wrote in message
...
> Hello, I've been ghosting this list for several months now and thought I
> should say Hi. Hello!
>
> Light of short wavelengths ie blue, violet, and UV have the ability to
> dislodge electrons from atoms and molecules. This can cause one molecule
to
> split into two or more or make a new molecule by addition of a atom, ion
or
> the like. The reason for the colours to be in the blue range is that they
> carry enough energy to kick that electron out of its natural state
changing
> the bonding tendencies of a given compond. This is also the reason why UV
> gives us cancer, it changes our DNA (creates G dimers). With out getting
> into to much quantum physics I can safely say that you can shine as much
> red light on wine, as long as it does not change the temperature, and no
> "artifical aging" will occur because of the red light exposure.
>
> As for the bottle colour, you could have a clear bottle that will block
> 100% UVA and UVB light (UVC has to be artificially created since very
> little makes it to earth). So I would say that the best bottle would be
> made out of a UV absorbing (I believe boro-silicate glass is one, Pyrex)
> with colourants that will absorb/reflect the blues and violets ie a blue
> bottle. Now the price for such a bottle would be very high and it is not
> very necessary as long as the wine is kept in a dark place. That said you
> do not want to start spraying the room walls with a UV absorber and
> painting the bottles with a UV Scatterer (titanium dioxide) because it
will
> slow your aging dramaticly, as the saying goes everying in moderation. Now
> all we have to do is decide what moderation means!!
>
> well thats my two cents worth.
>
> Rob

Thanks for a great post Rob.

Unfortunately, I'm not that up to date on all of the major families of
compounds found in wine so I would only be guessing without further
research. As for the idea about denaturing/modifying the offending
compounds I do not think that you would want to do this, well at lest not
completely. The reason for this is that unlike beer which is (I think, I
have never made beer, my dad has though maybe I should ask him) good to
drink after a few about 2 (?) months, wine need to age. Part of the aging
process is the conversion of those natural compounds into
oxidized/reduced/converted forms. This could bring up an interesting idea.
If you could find a way to stabilize the a precise percentage of the
reactive compounds, you could then just bottle your wine after a few
racking (I make wine the old fashion way, no chems at all including SO2)
expose it to some UVC light (ages an sterilizes, now that is to birds I can
live with!) and subject it to a hot/warm water bath and voila, instant 10
year old Cab! Hemm, now only if I was a Organic Chem major and not a BioMed
<sigh>.


Hope this helps a little, let me know.

Rob




Sabia Vanderzeeuw wrote:

> Hi Rob,
> What you are stating is quite correct and well known. I do not dispute the
> action of "high" frequency "light". My question is what compounds are
> involved? Hence the analogy with beer. There, it was found that one family
> of compounds caused the problem. The hop people changed the compounds and
> now we can "enjoy" beer in a clear bottle. My question really comes down
> to "can this be done to wine"? Is there a way to alter the compounds that
> cause the negative flavour change in a way to reduce the flavour change.
> Thus we have to identify the compounds responsible for the flavour change
> to begin with. So what are they???
> I hope this is understandable,
> Eddie V.
>
> "Rob A" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hello, I've been ghosting this list for several months now and thought I
>> should say Hi. Hello!
>>
>> Light of short wavelengths ie blue, violet, and UV have the ability to
>> dislodge electrons from atoms and molecules. This can cause one molecule
> to
>> split into two or more or make a new molecule by addition of a atom, ion
> or
>> the like. The reason for the colours to be in the blue range is that they
>> carry enough energy to kick that electron out of its natural state
> changing
>> the bonding tendencies of a given compond. This is also the reason why UV
>> gives us cancer, it changes our DNA (creates G dimers). With out getting
>> into to much quantum physics I can safely say that you can shine as much
>> red light on wine, as long as it does not change the temperature, and no
>> "artifical aging" will occur because of the red light exposure.
>>
>> As for the bottle colour, you could have a clear bottle that will block
>> 100% UVA and UVB light (UVC has to be artificially created since very
>> little makes it to earth). So I would say that the best bottle would be
>> made out of a UV absorbing (I believe boro-silicate glass is one, Pyrex)
>> with colourants that will absorb/reflect the blues and violets ie a blue
>> bottle. Now the price for such a bottle would be very high and it is not
>> very necessary as long as the wine is kept in a dark place. That said you
>> do not want to start spraying the room walls with a UV absorber and
>> painting the bottles with a UV Scatterer (titanium dioxide) because it
> will
>> slow your aging dramaticly, as the saying goes everying in moderation.
>> Now all we have to do is decide what moderation means!!
>>
>> well thats my two cents worth.
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> Joe Sallustio wrote:
>>
>> > Eddie;
>> > See 'Principles and Practices of Winemaking' by Boulton et al page
>> > 422. In short the shorter wavelengths are the most problematic and
>> > have the most potential to cause chemical changes. It 'catalyses
>> > consumption of oxygen and acheivement of rest potential'. (I'm not a
>> > chemist, just giving you the info you requested.) They suggest opaque,
>> > black or dark red would be best to exclude these wavelengths. None of
>> > this matters if the wine is stored in a box or stored in the dark and
>> > all wine is shipped in an overpack of some sort.
>> >
>> > Mine is staying in the cellar, along with my beer. I use more green
>> > than anything else and we use green Grolsch bottles for most of our
>> > beer too. We buy it by the case so I never had a skunky one by the
>> > way. I have no idea why they switched from brown to green, old
>> > Grolsch bottles were brown. The only time my beer or wine is exposed
>> > to sunlight is when we are consuming it, sunlight doesn't get much of
>> > a chance to do much... )
>> >
>> > A lot of good Italian and German wines do come in brown bottles. I
>> > use brown too.
>> > Regards,
>> > Joe
>> >
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Joe
>> >
>> > "Sabia Vanderzeeuw" > wrote in message
>> > m>...
>> >> Hi All,
>> >> This is not a discussion between Greg and me; please join in! This is
> one
>> >> of the great wine mysteries. Myth does not have a place in wine making
>> >> anymore. Clear bottles are a marketing thing!
>> >> Green bottles reduce UV only to a very limited extent.
>> >> The colour of a traditional wine bottle has to do with the base
> material
>> >> available to the bottle maker not to what is best for the wine! Just
>> >> stating that dark coloured bottles, green or brown, are the best for
> red
>> >> wine is not an answer. What is the effect of the many frequencies of
>> >> light on wine?
>>

Rob A wrote:
> This could bring up an interesting idea.
> If you could find a way to stabilize the a precise percentage of the
> reactive compounds, you could then just bottle your wine after a few
> racking
>
>
Rob,

How about stabilizing only a portion of the wine and back blending it
into the unblended remainder?

BTW, that's an interesting approach you describe to quick aging a Cab.
Three quick questions, if I may:
1) Exactly how do you expose the wine?
2) Can this process be precisely controlled?
3) How does the wine age out over the long run?

Thanks,

Mike MTM, Cokesbury, New Jersey, USA

OK let me first warn you that I have not tried this and that I do not
recommend it at all. Next, if it did work well then I think it would
already be used commercially. Although, it might be worth me dropping $50
for a little experiment!

OK down to business.

As for your first question, if I am reading it correctly, it would take
forever for the wine to mature. The reason for this is that for certian
parts of the aging process it is done by chance. IE The chance that UV
light will strike a molecule that we want to undergo a favorable reaction
is substantially lowered if we dropped the concentration of that molecule
in the wine. What you could (theoretically) do is mix some overly matured
(not oxidized) wine to some fresh wine to obtain a happy balance. This is
similar to what happens to the blended wines, those who do not have a date
on them. They are created in the "lab" by mixing wines to obtain a
consistant result year after year. Although you could try this at home
unless you know that the wine is not oxidized at all I would not suggest
it.

> 1) Exactly how do you expose the wine?

you could use a standard mercury vapor bulb, with or with out various types
of shielding. I have a UVA/B/C bulbs at home for different work any of
which should be fine though I would recommend a UVB bulb. Reason is that is
has more electron knocking power but you do not have to be suited up like a
nuclear power station tech! My UVC bulb is a 5 watt (I think) bulb and can
sterilize an area of about 2 m^2 in about 20 Seconds, not good for skin or
eyes! You could also use a UV laser. Just shine the UV light at the
carboloy/demi-john, not very precise, see next section.

> 2) Can this process be precisely controlled?

In the aquarium trade you can buy UVC sterilization kits which is basically
a tube with a UVC bulb in the center inwhich the water (or in this
hypothetical scenario) wine would run through; by controlling the rate of
flow you could gain a certain amount of control. A better idea is to use a
UV laser with a mirror with a known reflectance and shine it into a tube
flowing with wine and then control the flow for fine control.

> 3) How does the wine age out over the long run?

My bet is that it would not work well since the UV light is only one aspect
in the aging process. Heat, Mechanical motion (vibrations and currents in
the bottle), if corked or in wood casks/demi-johns any smells/compounds in
the air will penetrate into the wine in time adding to it, all of which
contribute to the "aging".

With this said, I do not think that the home wine maker could artifically
age wine with any form of consistant success. I would recommend that you
let time take its time and not rush a good thing.

Patients is a virtue,

Rob


MikeMTM wrote:

> Rob A wrote:
>> This could bring up an interesting idea.
>> If you could find a way to stabilize the a precise percentage of the
>> reactive compounds, you could then just bottle your wine after a few
>> racking
>>
>>
> Rob,
>
> How about stabilizing only a portion of the wine and back blending it
> into the unblended remainder?
>
> BTW, that's an interesting approach you describe to quick aging a Cab.
> Three quick questions, if I may:
> 1) Exactly how do you expose the wine?
> 2) Can this process be precisely controlled?
> 3) How does the wine age out over the long run?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike MTM, Cokesbury, New Jersey, USA