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Red wine juice without skins
One of my winegrower that we sold grapes from last year is offering to
press and pail juice for this next season. I have asked them several times now how they will without retaining the skins hold any color for the red wines, and I just don't get it. They claim that the juice is processed somehow so that the color will be there. He sent me 2 pails of merlot(no skins)last year with their refrigerated shipment and yes the juice was very dark and the batch seem so far great?! Sure I'm out of the loop somehow. Anybody know what they are doing? The two pails I received had a button on the pail for pressure expansion and they certainly had a positive pressure coming out of the pails. SG Brix |
Red wine juice without skins
sgbrix wrote:
> He sent me 2 pails of merlot(no skins)last year with their > refrigerated shipment and yes the juice was very dark and the batch > seem so far great?! Sure I'm out of the loop somehow. Anybody know > what they are doing? Some red juices use a steam extraction method, which extracts the colour, but this juice is lacking in body, tannin and all the other goodness that comes out of the skins during fermentation. -- charles "Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were forced to live on nothing but food and water for days." - W.C. Fields |
Red wine juice without skins
If they can do that with juice, why don't they just crush and destem them
and send that refrigerated - even better sulfated as well? A bit longer maceration wouldn't be all that bad would it? I suppose one down side is that it takes more weight and volume to include the crushed skins than just the juice, but in that kind of shipment, the marginal freight cost wouldn't be too great I wouldn't think. Ralph "sgbrix" > wrote in message om... > One of my winegrower that we sold grapes from last year is offering to > press and pail juice for this next season. I have asked them several > times now how they will without retaining the skins hold any color for > the red wines, and I just don't get it. They claim that the juice is > processed somehow so that the color will be there. > > He sent me 2 pails of merlot(no skins)last year with their > refrigerated shipment and yes the juice was very dark and the batch > seem so far great?! Sure I'm out of the loop somehow. Anybody know > what they are doing? > > The two pails I received had a button on the pail for pressure > expansion and they certainly had a positive pressure coming out of the > pails. > > SG Brix |
Red wine juice without skins
sgbrix wrote:
> Sure I'm out of the loop somehow. Anybody know > what they are doing? > SG, Two possible methods come to mind: 1) He's adding a color concentrate to the juice, or 2) He is somehow heat processing the must to set the color, as described above. I wouldn't care to use either, as both would be lacking in character, as Charles said. Further, if it's heat processed, the juice is likely to have elevated levels of hydroxymethylfurfural, which gives that cooked, caramelly taste to many kit wines. (HMF forms as low as 50°C) Another possibility may be that he's buying the juice from a larger producer and reselling. How does the test wine compare to whole-grape wine & kits? HTH, Mike MTM |
Red wine juice without skins
MikeMTM > wrote in message >...
---snip > How does the test wine compare to whole-grape wine & kits? > > HTH, Mike MTM I have made Merlot from all the juice concentrate (6) that I have come across this last year. This is definitely one step better, but not like fresh made when it comes to the bouquet, it is not pronounced. Color never done much for me, but it is Disney strong. Color is vibrant. I agree in pressing and keeping the skins with the lot that someone suggested. I have done 4 different blends this way from frozen and these wines have been quit well for me. But there still is the way these frozen skins look compare to fresh skins, also how the tasted. Freezing seem to have their own nuances. SG Brix |
Red wine juice without skins
As far as I am concerned the theory that hot pressed reds are inferior
products lacking body and character is hogwash. Most of my reds are from hot pressed juice and they are all you should expect from the area they are grown in, the hot central valley. Hot pressed reds make excellent table wine. Anyone who expects to make the equivalent of a $50 bottle from these grapes is just fooling himself anyway. There is absolutely nothing wrong with hot pressing reds. If I lived in Bordeaux or Napa Valley I would probably not do this, but I don't and neither do most winemakers. We make excellent Syrah and Valdepena from hot pressed grape juice. The oldest we have to date is 6 years old and let me assure you they are pleasant wines. They are mature enough at 1.5 years and to date none of ours have fallen apart with age, (not that most get to sit on the shelf for years). They do not lack body, color or character. I have quite a bit of experience making good wine from red juice. The wines taste fine and lack nothing I am looking for. Regards, Joe |
Red wine juice without skins
Joe Sallustio wrote:
> As far as I am concerned the theory that hot pressed reds are inferior > products lacking body and character is hogwash. <<<snip>>> Joe, I have no experience with hot pressed red juice wines, so I fully accept your description of them. Perhaps I unfairly lumped them together with red concentrate wines, which I still maintain are inferior to whole grape wines. At least the dozen or so I tried over the years were. Please remember that the sgbrix never said that the juice in question was hot pressed, but that the vendor gave some confusing explanation of how the juice was processed. That vagueness, together with the vibrant, Disneyesque color makes me wonder if the juice were simply cold pressed and color added. The taste seems OK to sgbrix, so perhaps the juice is everything it should be. The bright colors are still a puzzle, though. Do hot pressed reds usually show such vibrant colors ? I'd like to try a hot pressed red. Are they available in small quantities or only in bulk? Maybe I can convince my local supplier to stock some. When I was there recently, he was as surprised as hell (and annoyed) to learn that the 5 gal pails of "juice" he'd gotten in were actually reconstituted from concentrate. He hadn't read the fine print. Regards, Mike MTM |
Red wine juice without skins
MikeMTM wrote:
> I'd like to try a hot pressed red. Are they available in small > quantities or only in bulk? In Ontario at least, they are seem to available at small Italian and Portuguese stores, in 18/19L pails for C$30-50, FWIW. -- charles "Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were forced to live on nothing but food and water for days." - W.C. Fields |
Red wine juice without skins
MikeMTM > wrote in message >...
> Joe Sallustio wrote: > > > As far as I am concerned the theory that hot pressed reds are inferior > > products lacking body and character is hogwash. > <<<snip>>> > Joe, > > Joe, What Cal. juices are hot-pressed? I know Alexanders isn't but expect Lucerne may be. Thanks, Tim |
Red wine juice without skins
Hi Mike,
I use Regina, which is from Lamanuzzi and Pantaleo. They have a website and might be able to tell you where to get it in your area. It's readily available in the Northeast where we have a hard time growing good grapes. I don't know what SGBrix's producer is doing either, but the only way I know of to get red juice from red skinned grapes is natural fermentation or hot pressing. I am not expecting to make fine wine from central valley fruit, just good table wine. I apolgize if it sounded overly harsh, but as in all things theres is a wide range of outcomes, we do not consider our wines to be low end and lifeless. Homemade wines here in Pittsburgh vary quite a bit, I have tasted some gawd awful wines made from grapes, and some good ones too. I'm only saying I am limited by the quality level of the grape itself, and hot pressing if done corrctly does not seem to damage our end product. A well made wine from hot pressed juice tastes better than a poorly made wine from the same producer. This year I bought some cab grapes to make alongside the juice and while it's too early to tell, I am doubtful this will end up better than the juice did. All that said, if I had access to high quality grapes I would not hot press them, I would want to control the extraction myself. Regards, Joe MikeMTM > wrote in message >... > Joe Sallustio wrote: > > > As far as I am concerned the theory that hot pressed reds are inferior > > products lacking body and character is hogwash. > <<<snip>>> > Joe, > > I have no experience with hot pressed red juice wines, so I fully accept > your description of them. Perhaps I unfairly lumped them together with > red concentrate wines, which I still maintain are inferior to whole > grape wines. At least the dozen or so I tried over the years were. > > Please remember that the sgbrix never said that the juice in question > was hot pressed, but that the vendor gave some confusing explanation of > how the juice was processed. That vagueness, together with the vibrant, > Disneyesque color makes me wonder if the juice were simply cold pressed > and color added. The taste seems OK to sgbrix, so perhaps the juice is > everything it should be. The bright colors are still a puzzle, though. > Do hot pressed reds usually show such vibrant colors ? > > I'd like to try a hot pressed red. Are they available in small > quantities or only in bulk? Maybe I can convince my local supplier to > stock some. When I was there recently, he was as surprised as hell (and > annoyed) to learn that the 5 gal pails of "juice" he'd gotten in were > actually reconstituted from concentrate. He hadn't read the fine print. > > Regards, Mike MTM |
Red wine juice without skins
Tim,
Regina reds are hot pressed. I have no idea how Home Wines (Alexanders) gets color and tannin extracted from red grapes without heat. Maybe there is a new process that I am unaware of. A lot of vendors don't seem to want to say the red juice was hot pressed, but it's not a big deal to me. Regards, Joe (Tim McNally) wrote in message . com>... > MikeMTM > wrote in message >... > > Joe Sallustio wrote: > > > > > As far as I am concerned the theory that hot pressed reds are inferior > > > products lacking body and character is hogwash. > > <<<snip>>> > > Joe, > > > > Joe, > What Cal. juices are hot-pressed? I know Alexanders isn't but expect > Lucerne may be. > Thanks, > Tim |
Red wine juice without skins
Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> As far as I am concerned the theory that hot pressed reds are inferior > products lacking body and character is hogwash. > > Most of my reds are from hot pressed juice and they are all you should > expect from the area they are grown in, the hot central valley. Hot > pressed reds make excellent table wine. Anyone who expects to make > the equivalent of a $50 bottle from these grapes is just fooling > himself anyway. There is absolutely nothing wrong with hot pressing > reds. If I lived in Bordeaux or Napa Valley I would probably not do > this, but I don't and neither do most winemakers. > > We make excellent Syrah and Valdepena from hot pressed grape juice. > The oldest we have to date is 6 years old and let me assure you they > are pleasant wines. They are mature enough at 1.5 years and to date > none of ours have fallen apart with age, (not that most get to sit on > the shelf for years). They do not lack body, color or character. I > have quite a bit of experience making good wine from red juice. The > wines taste fine and lack nothing I am looking for. > Regards, > Joe This interests me because I am sensitive to hystamines. Do you, or anyone else, know if the hystamines are carried over to the wine with this method. I know they are when the producer ferments on the skins. -- Thanks and regards, Shane. "A closed mouth gathers no feet!" Email: Beware the invalid word! shane at wonk dot demon dot co dot uk Website: http://www.wonk.demon.co.uk/ |
Red wine juice without skins
Shane,
I am not a chemist and not an authority on hystamines but it does turn out there is some research that has been done on this subject. You might want to get access to Yair Margalits 'Concepts in Wine Chemistry', pages 342-343. To sum up, grapes do not contain hystamines and processing methods do not seem to affect hystamine production. Niether does fermentation. They seem to appear after malolactic fermentation, but not in all ML wines. They usually appear in higher levels in reds than whites, but that makes sense, more reds go through ML. He gives a few references for more info too. The theory is that another bacteria that likes the conditions present during ML might cause the hystamine production. The levels are pretty low, reds are 5.7, whites around 3.3 mg/l. To actually answer your question, wines from the central valley are usually low in acid, so ML is not something you have to do. I rarely do it, so you may be able to drink my wines. If I were you I would make the wines on the higher side of the sulfite levels to stunt ML production. If you bought Regina juice, it comes in at 100 ppm SO2. I would touch up the acid post ferementation, mine always seem to climb .5 to 1 g/l after ferrmentation. That way you son't overdo the acid and want to encourage ML. I would add 1/4 teaspoon pot meta per 5 gallon each rack, and probably rack only 3 times. That's more than normal, if you test sulfite just keep it at 40 PPM and I doubt it will go into ML spontaneously. Hope that helps. Regards, Joe > > This interests me because I am sensitive to hystamines. > > Do you, or anyone else, know if the hystamines are carried over to the > wine with this method. I know they are when the producer ferments on the > skins. |
Red wine juice without skins
In article >,
Joe Sallustio > wrote: >Homemade wines here in Pittsburgh vary quite a bit, I have tasted some >gawd awful wines made from grapes, and some good ones too. I'm only >saying I am limited by the quality level of the grape itself, and hot >pressing if done corrctly does not seem to damage our end product. A >well made wine from hot pressed juice tastes better than a poorly made >wine from the same producer. I don't know how helpful this is, but chatting with the Grape & Granary last week, which is in eastern OH (Cleveland?), I found that he gets a shipment of grapes every year (at least for his own use). He may be a possible source . . . I'm probably a year or two from considering that; I expect that I'll get a few buckets of fresh juice this fall. hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign 111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ |
Red wine juice without skins
In article >,
Joe Sallustio > wrote: >I am not a chemist and not an authority on hystamines but it does turn >out there is some research that has been done on this subject. You >might want to get access to Yair Margalits 'Concepts in Wine >Chemistry', pages 342-343. To sum up, grapes do not contain >hystamines and processing methods do not seem to affect hystamine >production. Niether does fermentation. They seem to appear after >malolactic fermentation, but not in all ML wines. They usually appear >in higher levels in reds than whites, but that makes sense, more reds >go through ML. He gives a few references for more info too. The >theory is that another bacteria that likes the conditions present >during ML might cause the hystamine production. The levels are pretty >low, reds are 5.7, whites around 3.3 mg/l. So is that what was getting me? I finally tied the "hangovers" to my sinuses (sinuii?? :). I didn't think I should feel that way after sharing a single bottle with my wife (and a time or two wondered if somehow I'd managed to forget drinking an aweful lot). Eventually I realized just where I hurt, and tried psuedophedrine, which did more than the aspirin. By bits and pieces, I'm learning which table wines to avoid (Forestville seems to be bad for me). However, I seem to have gotten this more from whites than reds. Oh, and lower end (but still not rot-gut) distilled liquors, too. hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign 111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ |
Red wine juice without skins
In article >,
Joe Sallustio > wrote: >Homemade wines here in Pittsburgh vary quite a bit, I have tasted some >gawd awful wines made from grapes, and some good ones too. I'm only >saying I am limited by the quality level of the grape itself, and hot >pressing if done corrctly does not seem to damage our end product. A >well made wine from hot pressed juice tastes better than a poorly made >wine from the same producer. I don't know how helpful this is, but chatting with the Grape & Granary last week, which is in eastern OH (Cleveland?), I found that he gets a shipment of grapes every year (at least for his own use). He may be a possible source . . . I'm probably a year or two from considering that; I expect that I'll get a few buckets of fresh juice this fall. hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign 111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ |
Red wine juice without skins
In article >,
Joe Sallustio > wrote: >I am not a chemist and not an authority on hystamines but it does turn >out there is some research that has been done on this subject. You >might want to get access to Yair Margalits 'Concepts in Wine >Chemistry', pages 342-343. To sum up, grapes do not contain >hystamines and processing methods do not seem to affect hystamine >production. Niether does fermentation. They seem to appear after >malolactic fermentation, but not in all ML wines. They usually appear >in higher levels in reds than whites, but that makes sense, more reds >go through ML. He gives a few references for more info too. The >theory is that another bacteria that likes the conditions present >during ML might cause the hystamine production. The levels are pretty >low, reds are 5.7, whites around 3.3 mg/l. So is that what was getting me? I finally tied the "hangovers" to my sinuses (sinuii?? :). I didn't think I should feel that way after sharing a single bottle with my wife (and a time or two wondered if somehow I'd managed to forget drinking an aweful lot). Eventually I realized just where I hurt, and tried psuedophedrine, which did more than the aspirin. By bits and pieces, I'm learning which table wines to avoid (Forestville seems to be bad for me). However, I seem to have gotten this more from whites than reds. And I won't go *near* Chilean reds any more . . . Oh, and lower end (but still not rot-gut) distilled liquors, too. hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign 111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ |
Red wine juice without skins
In article >,
Joe Sallustio > wrote: >PSU is Penn State right? I don't know which campus you are at, but we >have fresh grapes available in both NY and PA. DuBois. 70 miles from the middle of nowhere. Someone in my Knights council buys fresh juice each year; I'm planning on going in with him for a few buckets. It comes in buckets with a built-in airlock. >Grape and Granary is >in Akron, they just moved to another building. Great people, I was in >Akron a month or so back and stopped in to get some supplies. In PA >you can get fresh grapes at several places in Pgh, Erie, Philly and >Beaver, most larger cities have a winemaking contingent. Pittsburgh's close to two hours from here. Large city? *giggle* >If the grapes or juice are not in the 7 gram/l TA range I do not use >MLF, I usually use other means to reduce acid. ML can make the wine >more complex, but I'm not sure that it's something worth doing unless >conditions warrant. If you are near Pgh you can try mine and see if >you get the headaches, I give away more than we drink... I still have to figure out this whole Ph business :) Which direction from Pgh? hawk -- Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics /"\ ASCII ribbon campaign 111 Hiller (814) 375-4846 \ / against HTML mail These opinions will not be those of X and postings. Penn State until it pays my retainer. / \ |
Red wine juice without skins
Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> Shane, > > I am not a chemist and not an authority on hystamines but it does turn > out there is some research that has been done on this subject. You > might want to get access to Yair Margalits 'Concepts in Wine > Chemistry', pages 342-343. To sum up, grapes do not contain > hystamines and processing methods do not seem to affect hystamine > production. Niether does fermentation. They seem to appear after > malolactic fermentation, but not in all ML wines. They usually appear > in higher levels in reds than whites, but that makes sense, more reds > go through ML. He gives a few references for more info too. The > theory is that another bacteria that likes the conditions present > during ML might cause the hystamine production. The levels are pretty > low, reds are 5.7, whites around 3.3 mg/l. > > To actually answer your question, wines from the central valley are > usually low in acid, so ML is not something you have to do. I rarely > do it, so you may be able to drink my wines. If I were you I would > make the wines on the higher side of the sulfite levels to stunt ML > production. > > If you bought Regina juice, it comes in at 100 ppm SO2. I would touch > up the acid post ferementation, mine always seem to climb .5 to 1 g/l > after ferrmentation. That way you son't overdo the acid and want to > encourage ML. I would add 1/4 teaspoon pot meta per 5 gallon each > rack, and probably rack only 3 times. That's more than normal, if you > test sulfite just keep it at 40 PPM and I doubt it will go into ML > spontaneously. > > Hope that helps. > Regards, > Joe > > > > > > This interests me because I am sensitive to hystamines. > > > > Do you, or anyone else, know if the hystamines are carried over to the > > wine with this method. I know they are when the producer ferments on the > > skins. Hi Joe, Thanks very much for the info. My consultant said OK to most whites but treat reds with suspicion and agreed that it was the hystamines that caused my problem. I suffer form Meniers syndrome - tinitus and loss of balance (spinning in my case). I have even experienced a "wobble" whilest drinking Chiliean Merlot with a meal! However, it was a very fine tasting wine. The effect is similar to migrane. The hystamines cause pressure in the head, but in my case it affects the aural and balance nerves in the inner ear. I assumed that the hystamines were produced by fermenting on the skins. Now that I know different, I shall experiment further. -- Thanks and regards, Shane. "A closed mouth gatheres no feet!" Email: Beware the invalid word! shane at wonk demon dot co dot uk Website: http://www.wonk.demon.co.uk/ |
Red wine juice without skins
Dr. Richard E. Hawkins > wrote:
> In article >, > Joe Sallustio > wrote: > > > >I am not a chemist and not an authority on hystamines but it does turn > >out there is some research that has been done on this subject. You > >might want to get access to Yair Margalits 'Concepts in Wine > >Chemistry', pages 342-343. To sum up, grapes do not contain > >hystamines and processing methods do not seem to affect hystamine > >production. Niether does fermentation. They seem to appear after > >malolactic fermentation, but not in all ML wines. They usually appear > >in higher levels in reds than whites, but that makes sense, more reds > >go through ML. He gives a few references for more info too. The > >theory is that another bacteria that likes the conditions present > >during ML might cause the hystamine production. The levels are pretty > >low, reds are 5.7, whites around 3.3 mg/l. > > So is that what was getting me? I finally tied the "hangovers" to my > sinuses (sinuii?? :). I didn't think I should feel that way after > sharing a single bottle with my wife (and a time or two wondered if > somehow I'd managed to forget drinking an aweful lot). > > Eventually I realized just where I hurt, and tried psuedophedrine, which > did more than the aspirin. By bits and pieces, I'm learning which table > wines to avoid (Forestville seems to be bad for me). > > However, I seem to have gotten this more from whites than reds. And I > won't go *near* Chilean reds any more . . . > > Oh, and lower end (but still not rot-gut) distilled liquors, too. > > hawk I too have experienced an effect whilest drinking Chiliean Merlot with a meal! However, it was a very fine tasting wine. The effect is similar to migrane. The hystamines cause pressure in the head, but in my case it affects the aural and balance nerves in the inner ear. There is a possible connection with your sinuses. I think red wine does dehydrate you more and I know my nose tends to "bung up" as a result of over indulging! -- Thanks and regards, Shane. "A closed mouth gatheres no feet!" Email: Beware the invalid word! shane at wonk demon dot co dot uk Website: http://www.wonk.demon.co.uk/ |
Red wine juice without skins
Maybe I have that same problem. I experience those same symptoms after a
couple of bottles of ANY wine! ;o) Ray "Shane Badham" > wrote in message . uk... > Joe Sallustio > wrote: > > > Shane, > > > > I am not a chemist and not an authority on hystamines but it does turn > > out there is some research that has been done on this subject. You > > might want to get access to Yair Margalits 'Concepts in Wine > > Chemistry', pages 342-343. To sum up, grapes do not contain > > hystamines and processing methods do not seem to affect hystamine > > production. Niether does fermentation. They seem to appear after > > malolactic fermentation, but not in all ML wines. They usually appear > > in higher levels in reds than whites, but that makes sense, more reds > > go through ML. He gives a few references for more info too. The > > theory is that another bacteria that likes the conditions present > > during ML might cause the hystamine production. The levels are pretty > > low, reds are 5.7, whites around 3.3 mg/l. > > > > To actually answer your question, wines from the central valley are > > usually low in acid, so ML is not something you have to do. I rarely > > do it, so you may be able to drink my wines. If I were you I would > > make the wines on the higher side of the sulfite levels to stunt ML > > production. > > > > If you bought Regina juice, it comes in at 100 ppm SO2. I would touch > > up the acid post ferementation, mine always seem to climb .5 to 1 g/l > > after ferrmentation. That way you son't overdo the acid and want to > > encourage ML. I would add 1/4 teaspoon pot meta per 5 gallon each > > rack, and probably rack only 3 times. That's more than normal, if you > > test sulfite just keep it at 40 PPM and I doubt it will go into ML > > spontaneously. > > > > Hope that helps. > > Regards, > > Joe > > > > > > > > > > This interests me because I am sensitive to hystamines. > > > > > > Do you, or anyone else, know if the hystamines are carried over to the > > > wine with this method. I know they are when the producer ferments on the > > > skins. > > Hi Joe, > > Thanks very much for the info. My consultant said OK to most whites but > treat reds with suspicion and agreed that it was the hystamines that > caused my problem. > > I suffer form Meniers syndrome - tinitus and loss of balance (spinning > in my case). I have even experienced a "wobble" whilest drinking > Chiliean Merlot with a meal! However, it was a very fine tasting wine. > The effect is similar to migrane. The hystamines cause pressure in the > head, but in my case it affects the aural and balance nerves in the > inner ear. > > I assumed that the hystamines were produced by fermenting on the skins. > Now that I know different, I shall experiment further. > > -- > Thanks and regards, Shane. > "A closed mouth gatheres no feet!" > Email: Beware the invalid word! shane at wonk demon dot co dot uk > Website: http://www.wonk.demon.co.uk/ |
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