"K.J.Kristiansen" > wrote in message
om...
> I have been making wine from berries for a number of years. Great
> hobby. One of the benefits are you do not have to drink the commercial
> "chemical" products from the wine shop.
> Disappointingly it seems that a lot of the discussions in this forum
> (and other) is about which chemicals to add to your wine. For
> clearing/fining/acid managment/storage. You name it. Someone sells a
> chemical to help you!
>
> Home made wines can be made completely without chemicals! It just
> takes care of cleanliness,patience (racking) and cool storage.
>
> A wine with no chemicals added is one of the major benefits of home
> wine making. Why give in to the doubtful methods of commercial wine
> makers and profit seeking retailers. Commercial wine makers want to
> send their product onto the market earlier and earlier. And they need
> to compensate for every kind of handling and storage (temperatures).
> Thats why they use all these chemicals. We don't!

What you mean "we"?

There are a number of good uses for the _judicious_ use of certain,
generally regarded as safe chemicals in amateur wineries. One of the more
obvious is the use of sulfites to retard the effects of oxidation, so that
your wines will last long enough to age gracefully over the course of years
rather than months.

Sure, you can make good wines without any chemicals, but isn't winemaking
difficult enough as it is, doing it the _easy_ way?

Tom S

How long do you store your wines? The use of chemicals is something that we
struggle with as well...

Steve
"K.J.Kristiansen" > wrote in message
om...
> I have been making wine from berries for a number of years. Great
> hobby. One of the benefits are you do not have to drink the commercial
> "chemical" products from the wine shop.
> Dissapointingly it seems that a lot of the discussions in this forum
> (and other) is about which chemicals to add to your wine. For
> clearing/fining/acid managment/storage. You name it. Someone sells a
> chemical to help you!
>
> Home made wines can be made completely without chemicals! It just
> takes care of cleanliness,patience (racking) and cool storage.
>
> A wine with no chemicals added is one of the major benefits of home
> wine making. Why give in to the doubtful methods of commercial wine
> makers and profit seeking retailers. Commercial wine makers want to
> send their product onto the market earlier and earlier. And they need
> to compensate for every kind of handling and storage (temperatures).
> Thats why they use all these chemicals. We don't!

On the great day of 24 Feb 2004 11:53:38 -0800, Sneezed and
expounded:

>
>Home made wines can be made completely without chemicals! It just
>takes care of cleanliness,patience (racking) and cool storage.

A chemical free wine would be a bottle containing a high vaccum.

ie: no water, glucose,fructose, acetic acid, ethanol, anthocyanin
compounds, malic acid, acetic acid, sulfur compounds, etc, as found in
every wine - all 'chemicals'

I'm sure you mean _added_ chemicals. As a chemist "chemical free" is
one of my pet peeves. Everything around you is by definition made of
'chemicals'.


--
I practice the art of creative spelling!

remove 'z' in address for reply

> I have been making wine from berries for a number of years.


I'm curious as to where you get your berries from, K.?

clyde

On 2/25/04 7:58 AM, in article ,
"Dan" > wrote:

> On the great day of 24 Feb 2004 11:53:38 -0800, Sneezed and
> expounded:
>
>>
>> Home made wines can be made completely without chemicals! It just
>> takes care of cleanliness,patience (racking) and cool storage.
>
> A chemical free wine would be a bottle containing a high vaccum.
>
> ie: no water, glucose,fructose, acetic acid, ethanol, anthocyanin
> compounds, malic acid, acetic acid, sulfur compounds, etc, as found in
> every wine - all 'chemicals'
>
> I'm sure you mean _added_ chemicals. As a chemist "chemical free" is
> one of my pet peeves. Everything around you is by definition made of
> 'chemicals'.

Glad to meet another chemist on here! You beat me to the punch.

--
Greg Cook
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine

(remove spamblocker from my email)

By "we" I mean us who make home made wines from berries.

I store my wines from 2 - 6 years (varies dependent of volume made).
Most berries have acids which preserves them (low pH ca. 3.0 and some
have benzoic acid as well). In fact, because of this you hardly
experience any tendency to malolactic fermentation in a berry wine.
I have never used sulfite (other than sterilising equipment). As for
fining, patience is the best practice.
But my earlier statement was slightly incorrect. I do use enzym
(pectolase) in some of my white wines. Maybe someone would claim that
this is a chemical.

"Steve Thompson" > wrote in message >...
> How long do you store your wines? The use of chemicals is something that we
> struggle with as well...
>
> Steve
> "K.J.Kristiansen" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I have been making wine from berries for a number of years. Great
> > hobby. One of the benefits are you do not have to drink the commercial
> > "chemical" products from the wine shop.
> > Dissapointingly it seems that a lot of the discussions in this forum
> > (and other) is about which chemicals to add to your wine. For
> > clearing/fining/acid managment/storage. You name it. Someone sells a
> > chemical to help you!
> >
> > Home made wines can be made completely without chemicals! It just
> > takes care of cleanliness,patience (racking) and cool storage.
> >
> > A wine with no chemicals added is one of the major benefits of home
> > wine making. Why give in to the doubtful methods of commercial wine
> > makers and profit seeking retailers. Commercial wine makers want to
> > send their product onto the market earlier and earlier. And they need
> > to compensate for every kind of handling and storage (temperatures).
> > Thats why they use all these chemicals. We don't!

"K.J.Kristiansen" > wrote in message
om...

> Thats why they use all these chemicals. We don't!

Sorry, KJ, the simple act of fermenting your fruits is adding a possible
carcinogen into the beverage, that being, ethyl carbamate, or urethane. This
is a natural by-product of fermentation, there's really nothing you can do
to prevent it, there is no way for you to know what levels are being
produced under your conditions, and nobody is really sure what a safe level
is, anyway.

http://www.winebusiness.com/html/Mon...&issueId=53965

Something to chew on as you ponder the evils of "chemicals".

Brian

Greg Cook wrote:

>>I'm sure you mean _added_ chemicals. As a chemist "chemical free" is
>>one of my pet peeves. Everything around you is by definition made of
>>'chemicals'.
>
>
> Glad to meet another chemist on here! You beat me to the punch.


Me too! (although I defected to IT straight after my PhD)

--
Grunff

Maybe he just meant it seems more natural to make the wine without added
chemicals. I too get mad when people go off on cancer causing this and that
chemicals and often have much wrong information. I have my own supply of
noxious ag chemicals sitting around. When I think of wine making and the
wine I have made, I don't or haven't used any added chemicals probably
because dad didn't and his dad didn't and so on.
"K.J.Kristiansen" > wrote in message
om...
> I have been making wine from berries for a number of years. Great
> hobby. One of the benefits are you do not have to drink the commercial
> "chemical" products from the wine shop.
> Dissapointingly it seems that a lot of the discussions in this forum
> (and other) is about which chemicals to add to your wine. For
> clearing/fining/acid managment/storage. You name it. Someone sells a
> chemical to help you!
>
> Home made wines can be made completely without chemicals! It just
> takes care of cleanliness,patience (racking) and cool storage.
>
> A wine with no chemicals added is one of the major benefits of home
> wine making. Why give in to the doubtful methods of commercial wine
> makers and profit seeking retailers. Commercial wine makers want to
> send their product onto the market earlier and earlier. And they need
> to compensate for every kind of handling and storage (temperatures).
> Thats why they use all these chemicals. We don't!

"K.J.Kristiansen" > wrote in message
om...
> Most berries have acids which preserves them (low pH ca. 3.0 and some
> have benzoic acid as well). In fact, because of this you hardly
> experience any tendency to malolactic fermentation in a berry wine.
> I have never used sulfite (other than sterilising equipment). As for
> fining, patience is the best practice.
> But my earlier statement was slightly incorrect. I do use enzym
> (pectolase) in some of my white wines. Maybe someone would claim that
> this is a chemical.

I'm not sure that I'd classify an enzyme as a chemical per se, but the last
time I checked, benzoic acid was a chemical - and I'm pretty sure it isn't
approved for use in commercial wines in the USA.

From your comment re fining, it seems that you regard their main purpose to
be the clarification of cloudy wine. That isn't really the case, although
improved clarity is frequently a by product of fining.

The real purpose of fining is to improve the flavor profile of wines thus
treated. It sometimes happens that a wine that has already fallen clear can
benefit greatly from fining - possibly to reduce aggressive tannins that
mask the fruit e.g., thereby improving the mouth feel and balance of the
wine.

Tom S

"Grunff" > wrote in message
...
> Greg Cook wrote:
>
> >>I'm sure you mean _added_ chemicals. As a chemist "chemical free" is
> >>one of my pet peeves. Everything around you is by definition made of
> >>'chemicals'.
> >
> >
> > Glad to meet another chemist on here! You beat me to the punch.
>
>
> Me too! (although I defected to IT straight after my PhD)

Wise man! You must have heard the statistic about chemists having on
average a ten year shorter life expectancy compared to other vocations.

I never heard of an IT guy dying from a paper cut or exposure to a computer
virus. ;^D

Tom S

Tom S wrote:
> "K.J.Kristiansen" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>Most berries have acids which preserves them (low pH ca. 3.0 and some
>>have benzoic acid as well). In fact, because of this you hardly
>>experience any tendency to malolactic fermentation in a berry wine.
>>I have never used sulfite (other than sterilising equipment). As for
>>fining, patience is the best practice.
>>But my earlier statement was slightly incorrect. I do use enzym
>>(pectolase) in some of my white wines. Maybe someone would claim that
>>this is a chemical.
>
> I'm not sure that I'd classify an enzyme as a chemical per se, but the last
> time I checked, benzoic acid was a chemical - and I'm pretty sure it isn't
> approved for use in commercial wines in the USA.
>
From my experience many things I do with home-made wines would not be
tolerated commercially. For example I add sugar to my mix which would
not be allowed. In general good grapes do not need the additives that
other wine needs. Modifications in commercial wine tend to be related
to the oak barrels that are used (or not used) I'm positive that the
acid, or lemon juice I feel free to add, the yeast, nutrients and the
enzymes would not be permitted. I visited a winemakers supplier
locally. He had a range of yeasts (but I'd need to buy a kilo),
metabisuphite and filters that might interest me. Not much else.

Tom S wrote:

> Wise man! You must have heard the statistic about chemists having on
> average a ten year shorter life expectancy compared to other vocations.

Nah, that never bothered me - I do much worse in my garage, and I don't
have to fill in risk assessments!

The main reason was (sadly) that I realised I could have a lot more
flexibility with where I worked/who I worked for in IT, and earn more
money with it.

--
Grunff

Olwen Williams ) wrote:
>Tom S wrote:
>> "K.J.Kristiansen" > wrote in message
>> om...
>>
>>>Most berries have acids which preserves them (low pH ca. 3.0 and some
>>>have benzoic acid as well). In fact, because of this you hardly
>>>experience any tendency to malolactic fermentation in a berry wine.
>>>I have never used sulfite (other than sterilising equipment). As for
>>>fining, patience is the best practice.
>>>But my earlier statement was slightly incorrect. I do use enzym
>>>(pectolase) in some of my white wines. Maybe someone would claim that
>>>this is a chemical.
>>
>> I'm not sure that I'd classify an enzyme as a chemical per se, but the last
>> time I checked, benzoic acid was a chemical - and I'm pretty sure it isn't
>> approved for use in commercial wines in the USA.
>>
> From my experience many things I do with home-made wines would not be
>tolerated commercially. For example I add sugar to my mix which would
>not be allowed. In general good grapes do not need the additives that
>other wine needs. Modifications in commercial wine tend to be related
>to the oak barrels that are used (or not used) I'm positive that the
>acid, or lemon juice I feel free to add, the yeast, nutrients and the
>enzymes would not be permitted. I visited a winemakers supplier
>locally. He had a range of yeasts (but I'd need to buy a kilo),
>metabisuphite and filters that might interest me. Not much else.


What is and isn't allowed depends on what country you're in, and
even what region or state within each country you're in. You
haven't mentioned anything that wouldn't be allowed here in NY where I
live, and all of it except the acid, I believe, would be allowed in
California, the largest wine producing area in my country, the U.S.

Dave
************************************************** **************************
Dave Breeden

Yes kklein. That was exactly what I meant.
It may come as a surprise to some of the other contributors that I
hold a university degree in chemical engineering. The word "chemical"
can, as demonstrated above, be interpreted differently and actually
can also relate to several alternative (and different) definitions.
In a discussion forum of wine making I thought it was not necessary to
define it and explain in what context I was using it.
It is simply about what you add to the fruit (other than the
ingredients to make the necessary reaction happen to classify the end
product as "Wine") - not that which is already there.

I guess we should all use the methods we are most comfortable with and
consider the discussion closed.


"kklein" > wrote in message >...
> Maybe he just meant it seems more natural to make the wine without added
> chemicals. I too get mad when people go off on cancer causing this and that
> chemicals and often have much wrong information. I have my own supply of
> noxious ag chemicals sitting around. When I think of wine making and the
> wine I have made, I don't or haven't used any added chemicals probably
> because dad didn't and his dad didn't and so on.
> "K.J.Kristiansen" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I have been making wine from berries for a number of years. Great
> > hobby. One of the benefits are you do not have to drink the commercial
> > "chemical" products from the wine shop.
> > Dissapointingly it seems that a lot of the discussions in this forum
> > (and other) is about which chemicals to add to your wine. For
> > clearing/fining/acid managment/storage. You name it. Someone sells a
> > chemical to help you!
> >
> > Home made wines can be made completely without chemicals! It just
> > takes care of cleanliness,patience (racking) and cool storage.
> >
> > A wine with no chemicals added is one of the major benefits of home
> > wine making. Why give in to the doubtful methods of commercial wine
> > makers and profit seeking retailers. Commercial wine makers want to
> > send their product onto the market earlier and earlier. And they need
> > to compensate for every kind of handling and storage (temperatures).
> > Thats why they use all these chemicals. We don't!

> The way you use the word "chemical" it almost sounds like you could
> interchange the word with "poison". Why do you believe the use of
> "chemicals" in the winemaking process is so bad?

Poison hmmmm...

My pregnant wife and three year old just had their
flu shot in December. In January we find out that
it has something called thimerosal in it which
contains ethylmercury. Silly me, I thought the flu
shot contain inactivated virus.

Chemicals aren't bad, it's the people that put poison
in them and don't tell anyone that are bad.

BTW I'm not ranting, ranting was what I did when
I found out.

Don

"David C Breeden" > wrote in message
...
> You
> haven't mentioned anything that wouldn't be allowed here in NY where I
> live, and all of it except the acid, I believe, would be allowed in
> California, the largest wine producing area in my country, the U.S.

Acid additions (not benzoic) are permitted in California, but sugar is not.
There is an easy way around the sugar issue though: grape juice
concentrate.

Tom S