Pros or cons of leaving juice based PN on lees
 

I have followed as much of the discussion and read as much as I could
concerning leaving or stirring the _fine_lees. Yet I am still
confused.

I am making a Pinot Noir from a juice. So it had no vegetal mater in
it (no "gross" lees). I ran the ferment down to 5 brix (with RC212)
and added MLB and Bactivaid ( recomendations not to short the MLB
of nutrients). Now it is down to SG 0.996 and small bubbles are rising
slowly (mixed with some quick ones). So it looks like all is well and
ML is under way.

Crud is now accumulating at the bottom, of course, though in 6 gallons
it is only about 1/2" thick so far. So:

Do I leave the wine on the fine lees to finish MLF? I understand that
yeast lees are good for those bugs and that disturbing things
(especially if adding some SO2 in a racking) might do them in.

Or are those lees likely to give some off flavors to the wine so that
I should rack off and let the _really_ fine lees fall out? No odors
yet but I wonder what will happen if I leave the wine without racking
for the 2 months or so that MLF might take to finish.

Tom S has said that "The autolysis itself doesn't cause any problems
[except in compaction]." So it seems I should shake or stir regularly.
On the other hand I'm concerned about opening up for stiring since I
have not added any SO2 (except the ~20 ppm the juice came with) and
that has probably long blown off. Do I risk an ascetobacter, oxidation
or something else if I open for stirring, possibly introducing some
air?

Maybe I am putting to fine a point on it. I just wonder about the
collection of "stuff" I see on the bottom and what it might do if left
there undisturbed.

tia

art

Pros or cons of leaving juice based PN on lees
 

"Art Schubert" <na@> wrote in message
...
> I have followed as much of the discussion and read as much as I could
> concerning leaving or stirring the _fine_lees. Yet I am still
> confused.
>
> I am making a Pinot Noir from a juice. So it had no vegetal mater in
> it (no "gross" lees). I ran the ferment down to 5 brix (with RC212)
> and added MLB and Bactivaid ( recomendations not to short the MLB
> of nutrients). Now it is down to SG 0.996 and small bubbles are rising
> slowly (mixed with some quick ones). So it looks like all is well and
> ML is under way.
>
> Crud is now accumulating at the bottom, of course, though in 6 gallons
> it is only about 1/2" thick so far. So:
>
> Do I leave the wine on the fine lees to finish MLF? I understand that
> yeast lees are good for those bugs and that disturbing things
> (especially if adding some SO2 in a racking) might do them in.
>
> Or are those lees likely to give some off flavors to the wine so that
> I should rack off and let the _really_ fine lees fall out? No odors
> yet but I wonder what will happen if I leave the wine without racking
> for the 2 months or so that MLF might take to finish.

If you leave it on the lees successfully, the wine will have better mouth
feel. The key to avoiding problems is not letting the wine sit on vegetal
lees for any length of time without stirring.

It sounds like your lees are fairly pure yeast and not very thick, so you
may not need to stir at all. Still, it isn't a bad idea to do so every 2 or
3 days - at least for the first couple of weeks, while keeping a vigilant
nose for H2S (rotten egg) smell.

The carboy should be pretty nearly full at this point, and under airlock.
After you stir, spritz the top of the wine a little from a sulfite spray
bottle before putting the airlock back on. That way you put the sulfite
where it does you the most good.

BTW, an ML check would be a good idea. It might be farther along than you
think.

Tom S

Pros or cons of leaving juice based PN on lees
 

Thanks, Tom

>Still, it isn't a bad idea to do so every 2 or 3 days - at least for
>the first couple of weeks...

Any concern about introducing oxygen with each stirring?

>The carboy should be pretty nearly full at this point, and under airlock.

Actually it is still under airlock from the ferment ("primary" in the
same carboy) and has not been opened yet. I haven't racked it to a
smaller one. I have gotten the idea that racking from a "primary" is
mostly for the purpose of getting the fermenting must off of the gross
lees while the ferment is still active enough to produce more CO2 and
not get stuck.

In this case, being just juice, I left it alone from the start. Wrong
move?

Pros or cons of leaving juice based PN on lees
 

"Art Schubert" <na@> wrote in message
...
> Thanks, Tom
>
> >Still, it isn't a bad idea to do so every 2 or 3 days - at least for
> >the first couple of weeks...
>
> Any concern about introducing oxygen with each stirring?

Not as long as you don't whip it into a froth! Besides, it's new wine, and
still fermenting. It's saturated with CO2. That diminishes how much oxygen
it can pick up. Also, you'll want to degas it at some point.

> >The carboy should be pretty nearly full at this point, and under airlock.
>
> Actually it is still under airlock from the ferment ("primary" in the
> same carboy) and has not been opened yet. I haven't racked it to a
> smaller one. I have gotten the idea that racking from a "primary" is
> mostly for the purpose of getting the fermenting must off of the gross
> lees while the ferment is still active enough to produce more CO2 and
> not get stuck.

Yeah, that's about it - unless you're doing sur lie aging.

> In this case, being just juice, I left it alone from the start. Wrong
> move?

Not really, but what are you going to fill all that headspace with? Now
that the main fermentation is over, you want to minimize the surface area
because that's where all the spoilage organisms grow.

Once you get the wine through ML you won't need to worry about H2S problems.
(Maybe it's far enough along that you don't have to now, but let your nose
be the judge of that.) Then you can sulfite and top the wine up and let it
sit for 6 months or so, stirring every couple of months, before letting it
finally settle clear in preparation for bottling.

Tom S