Hello:

I have a lot of questions!

I am interested in learning to make wine, and started New Year's Eve
with a Brew King Vintner's Reserve Cabernet kit. I made it according
to the instructions included with the concentrate, and it seems to be
doing well so far - weird how I like just sitting next to it listening
to the airlock bubble.

The instructions say I'm supposed to rack to a secondary fermenter for
more fermenting, then stabilize with metabisulphite and sorbate and
add chitosan, top it off and then let it clarify, then bottle. I've
read some references to letting the wine bulk age before bottling.
Does this mean that I would stabilize/clarify, then rack to another
carboy for bulk aging, and then bottling? Can anyone give me a
recommended time frame for the bulk aging? Any potential mistakes to
try to avoid by doing this?

My local brewstore has the Brew King Selection Series concentrates on
sale, and I have heard that these are significantly better in quality
than the Vintner's Reserve and worth the extra price. Have y'all
found this to be true?

I'd like to purchase one of the Vintner's Reserve kits, probably a red
wine. What other recommendations do you have for fiddling with these
kits to possibly get a better finished product? I've heard to make
five gallons instead of six for more flavor, is this a good idea?
Should I try a different strain of yeast than the Premier Cuvee which
is what I think the majority of this brand's kits are packaged with?
Ferment at other than recommended temperatures?

I'd appreciate any ideas on how to tweak these kits, or even advice on
what NOT to do!


Thanks, Theresa

Theresa,
Welcome. I don't do wine kits, but I do understand the fascination with
listening/watching the bubbling in the airlock. My daughters used to tease
me about that all the time. Others, who do kits, will respond I'm sure.
Darlene

"Theresa" > wrote in message
om...
> Hello:
>
> I have a lot of questions!
>
> I am interested in learning to make wine, and started New Year's Eve
> with a Brew King Vintner's Reserve Cabernet kit. I made it according
> to the instructions included with the concentrate, and it seems to be
> doing well so far - weird how I like just sitting next to it listening
> to the airlock bubble.
>
> The instructions say I'm supposed to rack to a secondary fermenter for
> more fermenting, then stabilize with metabisulphite and sorbate and
> add chitosan, top it off and then let it clarify, then bottle. I've
> read some references to letting the wine bulk age before bottling.
> Does this mean that I would stabilize/clarify, then rack to another
> carboy for bulk aging, and then bottling? Can anyone give me a
> recommended time frame for the bulk aging? Any potential mistakes to
> try to avoid by doing this?
>
> My local brewstore has the Brew King Selection Series concentrates on
> sale, and I have heard that these are significantly better in quality
> than the Vintner's Reserve and worth the extra price. Have y'all
> found this to be true?
>
> I'd like to purchase one of the Vintner's Reserve kits, probably a red
> wine. What other recommendations do you have for fiddling with these
> kits to possibly get a better finished product? I've heard to make
> five gallons instead of six for more flavor, is this a good idea?
> Should I try a different strain of yeast than the Premier Cuvee which
> is what I think the majority of this brand's kits are packaged with?
> Ferment at other than recommended temperatures?
>
> I'd appreciate any ideas on how to tweak these kits, or even advice on
> what NOT to do!
>
>
> Thanks, Theresa

On 1/8/04 5:59 PM, in article
, "Theresa"
> wrote:

> Hello:
>
> I have a lot of questions!
>
> I am interested in learning to make wine, and started New Year's Eve
> with a Brew King Vintner's Reserve Cabernet kit. I made it according
> to the instructions included with the concentrate, and it seems to be
> doing well so far - weird how I like just sitting next to it listening
> to the airlock bubble.

Isn't it great? Welcome to the club!!!

>
> The instructions say I'm supposed to rack to a secondary fermenter for
> more fermenting, then stabilize with metabisulphite and sorbate and
> add chitosan, top it off and then let it clarify, then bottle. I've
> read some references to letting the wine bulk age before bottling.
> Does this mean that I would stabilize/clarify, then rack to another
> carboy for bulk aging, and then bottling? Can anyone give me a
> recommended time frame for the bulk aging? Any potential mistakes to
> try to avoid by doing this?

Usually we carry out the initial vigorous fermentation in a bucket or other
relatively open container. Since you have an airlock I wonder if you already
have it in a carboy? If so, you can leave it there until fermentation stops.
Otherwise, you should rack it when fermentation slows, but is not over. At
this stage there is lots of CO2 being produced to protect your wine, so I
would not worry too much about air. However, once fermentation slows or
stops, the most important thing you can do is minimize air exposure wherever
possible. When you rack to a carboy, make sure it is filled up to within and
inch or two of the top. I usually rack them into smaller and smaller carboys
as I do subsequent rackings to keep it topped up.

If you are making a dry wine -- there is NO need to add sorbate. Only add
the sulfite. If you want a sweeter wine - and plan to add sugar at the end
or try to stop fermentation while there is sugar left, then you need to add
sorbate. In both cases, you will need the sulfite.


>
> My local brewstore has the Brew King Selection Series concentrates on
> sale, and I have heard that these are significantly better in quality
> than the Vintner's Reserve and worth the extra price. Have y'all
> found this to be true?

I don't know - perhaps others can comment. But, a general rule of thumb is -
"you get what you pay for".

>
> I'd like to purchase one of the Vintner's Reserve kits, probably a red
> wine. What other recommendations do you have for fiddling with these
> kits to possibly get a better finished product? I've heard to make
> five gallons instead of six for more flavor, is this a good idea?
> Should I try a different strain of yeast than the Premier Cuvee which
> is what I think the majority of this brand's kits are packaged with?
> Ferment at other than recommended temperatures?

Since this is your first time --- I would follow the kit instructions to the
letter. Although I would not add sorbate if all the sugar has fermented out
and it is dry and stable. Also, I would probably bulk age it longer than is
recommended.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

--
Greg Cook
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine

(remove spamblocker from my email)

Theresa! Isnt that th most awesome thing to hear ? All that life
created in a 6 gal. carboy that eventually going to give you a buzz!!
Anyway, as a new winemaker myself, your questions are nothing new here
and most can be answered by simply going thru the archives . I made a
Merlot for my first wine early last year. The kit was from Brew King
and I finally got to sample some at christmas time. It came out great
and gave me enough inspiration to experiment with a strawberry wine
and a cabernet , both made from scratch. From scratch meaning starting
off with pure natural juice and Jacks web site. With the kit: I
started in Feb and had my first glass Dec.20th. Mistakes learned with
a it? Used the same type of wine you are making to top off the carboys
instead of water. The Merlot came out nice, dry BUT lacking a bit of
body and bite. When mixed with a commercial table wine all was
forgiven. Don't be in a great big rush to rack, rerack and rack again.
After the primary fermentation takes place and you rack for the first
time, let it sit and forget about it for a while. This is the hardest
part. Once you get over those cute little bubbles coming up thru the
airlock it becomes easier. Catologues from grape and granary and e.c.
kraus are also very,very big helps.

(Theresa) wrote in message . com>...
> Hello:
>
> I have a lot of questions!
>
> I am interested in learning to make wine, and started New Year's Eve
> with a Brew King Vintner's Reserve Cabernet kit. I made it according
> to the instructions included with the concentrate, and it seems to be
> doing well so far - weird how I like just sitting next to it listening
> to the airlock bubble.
>
> The instructions say I'm supposed to rack to a secondary fermenter for
> more fermenting, then stabilize with metabisulphite and sorbate and
> add chitosan, top it off and then let it clarify, then bottle. I've
> read some references to letting the wine bulk age before bottling.
> Does this mean that I would stabilize/clarify, then rack to another
> carboy for bulk aging, and then bottling? Can anyone give me a
> recommended time frame for the bulk aging? Any potential mistakes to
> try to avoid by doing this?
>
> My local brewstore has the Brew King Selection Series concentrates on
> sale, and I have heard that these are significantly better in quality
> than the Vintner's Reserve and worth the extra price. Have y'all
> found this to be true?
>
> I'd like to purchase one of the Vintner's Reserve kits, probably a red
> wine. What other recommendations do you have for fiddling with these
> kits to possibly get a better finished product? I've heard to make
> five gallons instead of six for more flavor, is this a good idea?
> Should I try a different strain of yeast than the Premier Cuvee which
> is what I think the majority of this brand's kits are packaged with?
> Ferment at other than recommended temperatures?
>
> I'd appreciate any ideas on how to tweak these kits, or even advice on
> what NOT to do!
>
>
> Thanks, Theresa

Theresa...welcome to the fraternity.

My advice to a first timer is not to play with the first couple of
kits too much. Stick to the instructions pretty closely.

Do you have access to a filter? If so, do you plan to filter? This
affects the bulk aging/clearing.

For a first kit, I would suggest adding two weeks after the clearing
is addded. Then filter and bottle. Start drinking in 2-3 months.

If not filtering. Rack to another carboy 2-3 weeks after clearing.
Wait another 2-3 weeks and then rack again. Perhaps do it again
before bottling. Again 2-3 months before drinking.

Yes, the Selection kits make a better wine. They are also more worthy
of bulk aging.

Good luck, and have fun, Steve

Theresa,
The best advice I can give you is to go to www.google.com
and click on the "Groups" tab at the top. Then click on the
"Advanced Search" to the right of the search button. In the
resulting form you can search for any keywords you can think
of and limit it to this forum by entering rec.crafts.winemaking
in the newsgroup field. You will find tons of reading by
just searching on words and strings like "yeast", "bulk
aging", "kits" etc.

You might consider making your first kit exactly by the
directions. If you really want to gently tweak it you could
consider letting it ferment out longer in the carboy to
ensure it's dry, skip the potassium sorbate and then
bulk age it for a few months while stabilized with potassium
metabisulfite and topped up. Search on keywords from the
previous sentences.

Also, there are more than a few web sites devoted to home
winemaking:

http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/index.asp
http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman
http://members.tripod.com/~BRotter

Don

Argh! - to clarify, I am currrently fermenting a BK Vintner's Reserve
Cabernet kit, and I am LOOKING to purchase a BK Selection series kit
(which is less concentrated and more expensive)

Theresa


(Theresa) wrote in message . com>...
> Hello:
>
> I have a lot of questions!
>
> I am interested in learning to make wine, and started New Year's Eve
> with a Brew King Vintner's Reserve Cabernet kit. I made it according
> to the instructions included with the concentrate, and it seems to be
> doing well so far - weird how I like just sitting next to it listening
> to the airlock bubble.
>
> The instructions say I'm supposed to rack to a secondary fermenter for
> more fermenting, then stabilize with metabisulphite and sorbate and
> add chitosan, top it off and then let it clarify, then bottle. I've
> read some references to letting the wine bulk age before bottling.
> Does this mean that I would stabilize/clarify, then rack to another
> carboy for bulk aging, and then bottling? Can anyone give me a
> recommended time frame for the bulk aging? Any potential mistakes to
> try to avoid by doing this?
>
> My local brewstore has the Brew King Selection Series concentrates on
> sale, and I have heard that these are significantly better in quality
> than the Vintner's Reserve and worth the extra price. Have y'all
> found this to be true?
>
> I'd like to purchase one of the Vintner's Reserve kits, probably a red
> wine. What other recommendations do you have for fiddling with these
> kits to possibly get a better finished product? I've heard to make
> five gallons instead of six for more flavor, is this a good idea?
> Should I try a different strain of yeast than the Premier Cuvee which
> is what I think the majority of this brand's kits are packaged with?
> Ferment at other than recommended temperatures?
>
> I'd appreciate any ideas on how to tweak these kits, or even advice on
> what NOT to do!
>
>
> Thanks, Theresa

Thanks for the reply, Greg. A few follow up questions:

>>>Usually we carry out the initial vigorous fermentation in a bucket
or other
relatively open container. Since you have an airlock I wonder if you
already
have it in a carboy? <<<

The wine I have fermenting right now is in a 6gal carboy. I have a
few smaller carboys to rack into later on and a CO2 tank to help try
to avoid air exposure when racking

>>>>If you are making a dry wine -- there is NO need to add sorbate.
Only add
the sulfite<<<<<

Why does the kit include sorbate for a cabernet if it's not needed?
What will happen if I add it anyway? Is this just in case I screw up
and don't ferment it out completely?

>>>>>>Since this is your first time --- I would follow the kit
instructions to the
letter. Although I would not add sorbate if all the sugar has
fermented out
and it is dry and stable. Also, I would probably bulk age it longer
than is
recommended.<<<<

Exactly at what stage do you "bulk age" it at? The kit instructions
have nothing on bulk aging, only aging in the bottle. After
stabilizing and adding clarifiers do I then rack it off and bulk age?
Or do I just bulk age it without racking the wine off of the settled
clarifying agents? And for how long? Also, I read I'm supposed to add
more metabisulfite for aging - the instructions say to add extra
metabisulphite to age the wine in the bottles - but if I intend to
bulk age the wine in a carboy BEFORE bottling, do I therefore add
extra metabisulphite to the wine BEFORE bulk aging it in the carboy,
and then AGAIN at bottling? Should I be testing for sulphite levels?

Sorry for all the nitpicky questions but I'd love for this to turn out
right the first time!

Theresa

Welcome to the hobby, Theresa.

You are right, the sound is mesmerizing. Listening to it is almost like
meditation. Then it skips a beat and you total attention goes to the
airlock to see if it has stopped even though you know it has not. I don't
know if it is good for your heart or bad?

This is your first batch so follow your instructions exactly, even down to
when to bottle. Bulk aging is done as the last step before bottling but
leave bulk aging for latter experiments. This is your first batch and you
need something to drink to encourage you to continue. I can wait for two or
3 years of bulk aging but I have about 150 gals from different years aging
and 150 bottles read to drink. It will be good enough after a couple of
months. Yes it will be better after a year but by thing you will have more
going and can afford to wait.

Why is the sorbate included when it may not be needed? The kits are made
for casual wine makers who just do it by the numbers. Many have noting but
the basic equipment, not even a hydrometer. Sometimes a wine will stick,
which means that it stops fermenting before the sugar is all gone. With a
hydrometer you can detect when this has happened. If the wine is truly dry,
you do not need sorbate. But if it has stuck with a little sugar left,
there is the possibility that it may start up again 6 months later. If it
has been bottled, the bottles can explode. The sorbate is insurance that
this will not happen. If you are truly new to the hobby I recommend that
you include the sorbate. Once you get into things you will learn when it is
safe to not use it.

Don't be sorry for asking questions. When you are starting everything seems
daunting. The only stupid question is the one you do not ask. But pick up
a good beginners book on wine making. You will enjoy reading it and you
will learn the basic steps. I recommend C.J.J. Berry's "First Steps in
Winemaking". It is a classic but there are others.

Ray



"Theresa" > wrote in message
om...
> Thanks for the reply, Greg. A few follow up questions:
>
> >>>Usually we carry out the initial vigorous fermentation in a bucket
> or other
> relatively open container. Since you have an airlock I wonder if you
> already
> have it in a carboy? <<<
>
> The wine I have fermenting right now is in a 6gal carboy. I have a
> few smaller carboys to rack into later on and a CO2 tank to help try
> to avoid air exposure when racking
>
> >>>>If you are making a dry wine -- there is NO need to add sorbate.
> Only add
> the sulfite<<<<<
>
> Why does the kit include sorbate for a cabernet if it's not needed?
> What will happen if I add it anyway? Is this just in case I screw up
> and don't ferment it out completely?
>
> >>>>>>Since this is your first time --- I would follow the kit
> instructions to the
> letter. Although I would not add sorbate if all the sugar has
> fermented out
> and it is dry and stable. Also, I would probably bulk age it longer
> than is
> recommended.<<<<
>
> Exactly at what stage do you "bulk age" it at? The kit instructions
> have nothing on bulk aging, only aging in the bottle. After
> stabilizing and adding clarifiers do I then rack it off and bulk age?
> Or do I just bulk age it without racking the wine off of the settled
> clarifying agents? And for how long? Also, I read I'm supposed to add
> more metabisulfite for aging - the instructions say to add extra
> metabisulphite to age the wine in the bottles - but if I intend to
> bulk age the wine in a carboy BEFORE bottling, do I therefore add
> extra metabisulphite to the wine BEFORE bulk aging it in the carboy,
> and then AGAIN at bottling? Should I be testing for sulphite levels?
>
> Sorry for all the nitpicky questions but I'd love for this to turn out
> right the first time!
>
> Theresa

Theresa, I advise you and any kit winemaker to read my comments in the
December 8th and December 18th entries of my wineblog at
http://www.homebrew.com/wine_cellar/wineblog.shtml. The "Extended
Instructions..." in the December 18th entry are modifications of those
devised by Ed Goist and posted here at r.c.w. on March 31st, 2000. A
link to Ed's orginal instructions is at the end of my entry.

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

On 1/9/04 8:23 AM, in article
, "Theresa"
> wrote:

> Thanks for the reply, Greg. A few follow up questions:
>
>>>>> If you are making a dry wine -- there is NO need to add sorbate.
> Only add
> the sulfite<<<<<
>
> Why does the kit include sorbate for a cabernet if it's not needed?
> What will happen if I add it anyway? Is this just in case I screw up
> and don't ferment it out completely?

I think Ray has answered this for you. Although I will still say that if you
have a hydrometer and feel comfortable with your readings that the wine is
very dry, AND it has shown now signs of fermentation during aging for
several months, the sorbate isn't needed. Personally, I can taste sorbate in
my wines when I use it and think it detracts from the flavor, so I always
try to avoid it if possible.

>
>>>>>>> Since this is your first time --- I would follow the kit
> instructions to the
> letter. Although I would not add sorbate if all the sugar has
> fermented out
> and it is dry and stable. Also, I would probably bulk age it longer
> than is
> recommended.<<<<
>
> Exactly at what stage do you "bulk age" it at? The kit instructions
> have nothing on bulk aging, only aging in the bottle. After
> stabilizing and adding clarifiers do I then rack it off and bulk age?
> Or do I just bulk age it without racking the wine off of the settled
> clarifying agents? And for how long? Also, I read I'm supposed to add
> more metabisulfite for aging - the instructions say to add extra
> metabisulphite to age the wine in the bottles - but if I intend to
> bulk age the wine in a carboy BEFORE bottling, do I therefore add
> extra metabisulphite to the wine BEFORE bulk aging it in the carboy,
> and then AGAIN at bottling? Should I be testing for sulphite levels?
>
> Sorry for all the nitpicky questions but I'd love for this to turn out
> right the first time!
>
> Theresa

I forgot about Jack's wineblogs on this topic. That is a great resource to
help you.

Bulk aging simply means storing it all together in one carboy. That means
anything after fermentation is done is considered "bulk aging". In terms of
racking, soon after fermentation, I find it is necessary to rack and again
about a month later. If you add clarifiers, you may need to rack soon after
the clarifier settles. After that, I rack only rarely - but you will see
sediment continue to fall probably. When sediment no longer accumulates, it
really doesn't need to be racked but simply aged in the carboy.

Every time you rack your wine, you expose it to some air. The sulfite helps
to protect it from oxidation, so it everytime you rack, your sulfite levels
go down. Therefore, they need to be replaced. A general rule of thumb for
those who don't have SO2 testing items (and one I have followed
successfully) is to add sulfite on every other racking and right before
bottling. The amount to add would be 1 campden tablet per gallon or about
0.5 g per gallon.

--
Greg Cook
http://homepage.mac.com/gregcook/Wine

(remove spamblocker from my email)

Hello there Theresa
Most of what has been said is Ok but can be a bit overpowering! My main
recommendation for your first few kits is NOT TO TWEAK

I have been making wine of all kinds on a very small scale for quite a
while. I make more kit wines these days because of lack of space -- about 60
gallons ( imp) every year. and about 20 gallons of fruit wines.

With your first kit I recommend absolutely that you follow the kit
instructions implicitly. The kits are made to be fairly foolproof and the
methodology is designed to produce a drinkable wine in the stated time.
So please do it that way.You will enjoy it! Don't "fiddle" with it --- it
takes a certain amount of experience to make changes and you could spoil the
efforts of the manufacturer. Brew King kits are very good value ( I have no
shares).

I personally find the Vintners Reserve kit a bit thin -- but it is much
better than many others that you might have bought and I am sure that you
will find that your first home made wine is excellent! --- I know I did.
Mine aged for a whole month in 2 x 1 gal demijohns in the bottom of my
wardrobe and it was one of the best wines I have ever drunk!!!!!!!!! ( over
30 years ago! )

Right lets get to the nitty gritty. Go out and buy another kit now! You have
mentioned the Brew King Selection kits and I know they are nearly twice the
price --- but but but .------ please if you can afford it buy one and get it
started asap. You will find it is so much better than the VR and hopefully
you can let it "age" just a bit longer while you are drinking your first
wine.

A final note. We all read the instructions with a view to making various
alterations which will "improve" the wine. If you carry on and make more
wine and become as badly hooked as many of us on here you will find that
above all the easiest thing to do to improve your wine is to let it sit!
"Aging" is the in word and is so fantastically the best thing that you can
do to any wine.
It fines ( clears the wine ) it degasses, it filters and it magically
improves wine for untold mysterious reasons! REALLY!!!!!

Welcome to the club. If you continue life will become a bit more complicated
but very pleasant!
--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "SPAMLESS" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!
"Theresa" > wrote in message
om...
> Hello:
>
> I have a lot of questions!
<snip><snip>
>
> I'd appreciate any ideas on how to tweak these kits, or even advice on
> what NOT to do!
>
>
> Thanks, Theresa

"Pinky" > wrote in message

> My main
> recommendation for your first few kits is NOT TO TWEAK
>
>
>
> A final note. We all read the instructions with a view to making various
> alterations which will "improve" the wine. If you carry on and make more
> wine and become as badly hooked as many of us on here you will find that
> above all the easiest thing to do to improve your wine is to let it sit!
> "Aging" is the in word and is so fantastically the best thing that you can
> do to any wine.
> Trevor A Panther


I agree, don't play with chemistry yet. . Until you know how the final
result is going to be, you don't know how to tweak. Do be concerned about
sanitation and overall good practice. Don't rush a step, but it is OK to
let one go some extra time if you cannot do it on the day prescribed.

At the time the kit instructions tell you to bottle, do a racking instead
and then let it sit to age a bit longer.

After a few kits and plenty of aging, you will have read and absorbed some
good information and then know what, if anything, you want to tweak.
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

A big thanks to everyone for your help and getting me started. It
does look like I could use some more carboys, and space to store them
too! Theresa


(Jack Keller) wrote in message . com>...
> Theresa, I advise you and any kit winemaker to read my comments in the
> December 8th and December 18th entries of my wineblog at
> http://www.homebrew.com/wine_cellar/wineblog.shtml. The "Extended
> Instructions..." in the December 18th entry are modifications of those
> devised by Ed Goist and posted here at r.c.w. on March 31st, 2000. A
> link to Ed's orginal instructions is at the end of my entry.
>
> Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
> http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

On 10 Jan 2004 17:20:24 -0800, (Theresa) wrote:

>A big thanks to everyone for your help and getting me started. It
>does look like I could use some more carboys, and space to store them
>too! Theresa

ahh.. now you see the biggest problem most of us have here...




email: dallyn_spam at yahoo dot com
please respond in this NG so others
can share your wisdom as well!