Tom,

I've been "perusing" old threads with regard to the use of plastic
barrels for storage of wine and using PVC pipe in winemaking and see
you have some experience using this stuff so I will ask you this
question. I have 60 gallons of wine in a plastic barrel and I want to
reduce the headspace so I came up with this idea. I went to home depot
and got a 2" male fitting to screw into the hole in the top of the
barrel , then I put a small length of 2" pipe on that then a 2" to 1.5
inch reducer then a small piece of 1.5 " pipe then another reducer
where now I can theoretically have the surface area of the wine down
to less than 1.5" if I fill the barrel up into this "stack". I also
can put a regular airlock on it with those v shaped corks. Now my
question, will the primer and PVC cement dissolve when exposed to
alcohol for long periods of time ? I'm really excited about this idea
but as I was putting it together I realized I better not implement it
until I find out the answer to this question.


TIA,

Bob

"bob" > wrote in message
om...
> Tom,
>
> I've been "perusing" old threads with regard to the use of plastic
> barrels for storage of wine and using PVC pipe in winemaking and see
> you have some experience using this stuff so I will ask you this
> question. I have 60 gallons of wine in a plastic barrel and I want to
> reduce the headspace so I came up with this idea. I went to home depot
> and got a 2" male fitting to screw into the hole in the top of the
> barrel , then I put a small length of 2" pipe on that then a 2" to 1.5
> inch reducer then a small piece of 1.5 " pipe then another reducer
> where now I can theoretically have the surface area of the wine down
> to less than 1.5" if I fill the barrel up into this "stack". I also
> can put a regular airlock on it with those v shaped corks. Now my
> question, will the primer and PVC cement dissolve when exposed to
> alcohol for long periods of time ? I'm really excited about this idea
> but as I was putting it together I realized I better not implement it
> until I find out the answer to this question.

Actually, I can't envision your concept very clearly - but if it involves
immersing glued PVC fittings in the wine I'd say forget it.

PVC pipe cement contains tetrahydrofuran. It's a fairly volatile solvent,
but pretty nasty stuff. I wouldn't want any of that leaching into my wine.

If your main concern is eliminating headspace in that plastic drum, why not
fill it as much as possible with wine and sparge the headspace with argon or
nitrogen? As long as the wine has adequate free SO2, that's a pretty safe
way to maintain the wine. Of course that assumes that your plastic drum has
good, airtight closures.

The plastic drums I bought 20 years ago have problems. Initially they had a
plasticy smell - even after thorough cleaning. Over the years, some cracks
developed at the threaded areas, at the seams, and the caps started to
develop leaks.

The drums I bought a couple of years ago have none of those problems. Even
when new, they had no plastic smell. The caps seal perfectly, thanks to a
new design. All in all, I'd say that plastic containers have improved to
the point where they're almost on a par with glass or stainless.

You really need a gas bottle for winemaking anyway, so this might be the
time to buy one (and a pressure regulator).

Tom S

Bob,

I agree completely with Tom. Your set-up makes sense to me, but I'd be
way leery of letting the PVC solvent anywhere my wine. Just this
afternoon I opened a faucet on a line that I installed about 10 days
ago. It 5 joints in 3/4" pipe. The water still reeks of solvent. It
might be possible to completely lose the odor of your set-up over a very
long time, as water pipes do eventually clear out, but I'd be real
nervous the first time I tried it. Perhaps you could test it with a
volume of expendible wine?

If you try it out, let us know how it goes.

Luck, Mike MTM

Tom S wrote:

> "bob" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>Tom,
>>
>>I've been "perusing" old threads with regard to the use of plastic
>>barrels for storage of wine and using PVC pipe in winemaking and see
>>you have some experience using this stuff so I will ask you this
>>question. I have 60 gallons of wine in a plastic barrel and I want to
>>reduce the headspace so I came up with this idea. I went to home depot
>>and got a 2" male fitting to screw into the hole in the top of the
>>barrel , then I put a small length of 2" pipe on that then a 2" to 1.5
>>inch reducer then a small piece of 1.5 " pipe then another reducer
>>where now I can theoretically have the surface area of the wine down
>>to less than 1.5" if I fill the barrel up into this "stack". I also
>>can put a regular airlock on it with those v shaped corks. Now my
>>question, will the primer and PVC cement dissolve when exposed to
>>alcohol for long periods of time ? I'm really excited about this idea
>>but as I was putting it together I realized I better not implement it
>>until I find out the answer to this question.
>
>
> Actually, I can't envision your concept very clearly - but if it involves
> immersing glued PVC fittings in the wine I'd say forget it.
>
> PVC pipe cement contains tetrahydrofuran. It's a fairly volatile solvent,
> but pretty nasty stuff. I wouldn't want any of that leaching into my wine.
>
> If your main concern is eliminating headspace in that plastic drum, why not
> fill it as much as possible with wine and sparge the headspace with argon or
> nitrogen? As long as the wine has adequate free SO2, that's a pretty safe
> way to maintain the wine. Of course that assumes that your plastic drum has
> good, airtight closures.
>
> The plastic drums I bought 20 years ago have problems. Initially they had a
> plasticy smell - even after thorough cleaning. Over the years, some cracks
> developed at the threaded areas, at the seams, and the caps started to
> develop leaks.
>
> The drums I bought a couple of years ago have none of those problems. Even
> when new, they had no plastic smell. The caps seal perfectly, thanks to a
> new design. All in all, I'd say that plastic containers have improved to
> the point where they're almost on a par with glass or stainless.
>
> You really need a gas bottle for winemaking anyway, so this might be the
> time to buy one (and a pressure regulator).
>
> Tom S
>
>

Why not circulate water with some thing in it like acid?, base?, detergent?
that would clean out the solvent?

--
Regards,
Rex Franklin
"MikeMTM" > wrote in message
...
> Bob,
>
> I agree completely with Tom. Your set-up makes sense to me, but I'd be
> way leery of letting the PVC solvent anywhere my wine. Just this
> afternoon I opened a faucet on a line that I installed about 10 days
> ago. It 5 joints in 3/4" pipe. The water still reeks of solvent. It
> might be possible to completely lose the odor of your set-up over a very
> long time, as water pipes do eventually clear out, but I'd be real
> nervous the first time I tried it. Perhaps you could test it with a
> volume of expendible wine?
>
> If you try it out, let us know how it goes.
>
> Luck, Mike MTM
>
> Tom S wrote:
>
> > "bob" > wrote in message
> > om...
> >
> >>Tom,
> >>
> >>I've been "perusing" old threads with regard to the use of plastic
> >>barrels for storage of wine and using PVC pipe in winemaking and see
> >>you have some experience using this stuff so I will ask you this
> >>question. I have 60 gallons of wine in a plastic barrel and I want to
> >>reduce the headspace so I came up with this idea. I went to home depot
> >>and got a 2" male fitting to screw into the hole in the top of the
> >>barrel , then I put a small length of 2" pipe on that then a 2" to 1.5
> >>inch reducer then a small piece of 1.5 " pipe then another reducer
> >>where now I can theoretically have the surface area of the wine down
> >>to less than 1.5" if I fill the barrel up into this "stack". I also
> >>can put a regular airlock on it with those v shaped corks. Now my
> >>question, will the primer and PVC cement dissolve when exposed to
> >>alcohol for long periods of time ? I'm really excited about this idea
> >>but as I was putting it together I realized I better not implement it
> >>until I find out the answer to this question.
> >
> >
> > Actually, I can't envision your concept very clearly - but if it
involves
> > immersing glued PVC fittings in the wine I'd say forget it.
> >
> > PVC pipe cement contains tetrahydrofuran. It's a fairly volatile
solvent,
> > but pretty nasty stuff. I wouldn't want any of that leaching into my
wine.
> >
> > If your main concern is eliminating headspace in that plastic drum, why
not
> > fill it as much as possible with wine and sparge the headspace with
argon or
> > nitrogen? As long as the wine has adequate free SO2, that's a pretty
safe
> > way to maintain the wine. Of course that assumes that your plastic drum
has
> > good, airtight closures.
> >
> > The plastic drums I bought 20 years ago have problems. Initially they
had a
> > plasticy smell - even after thorough cleaning. Over the years, some
cracks
> > developed at the threaded areas, at the seams, and the caps started to
> > develop leaks.
> >
> > The drums I bought a couple of years ago have none of those problems.
Even
> > when new, they had no plastic smell. The caps seal perfectly, thanks to
a
> > new design. All in all, I'd say that plastic containers have improved
to
> > the point where they're almost on a par with glass or stainless.
> >
> > You really need a gas bottle for winemaking anyway, so this might be the
> > time to buy one (and a pressure regulator).
> >
> > Tom S
> >
> >
>

Bob,

Another thought just occurred to me. With a 60 gal volume and such a
small "stack" as you describe, the effect of expansion/contraction due
to temp changes will be greatly magnified. I wouldn't be surprised it
the level fluctuated by a couple of feet seasonally. Something to consider.

Luck, Mike MTM

bob wrote:

> Tom,
>
> I've been "perusing" old threads with regard to the use of plastic
> barrels for storage of wine and using PVC pipe in winemaking and see
> you have some experience using this stuff so I will ask you this
> question. I have 60 gallons of wine in a plastic barrel and I want to
> reduce the headspace so I came up with this idea. I went to home depot
> and got a 2" male fitting to screw into the hole in the top of the
> barrel , then I put a small length of 2" pipe on that then a 2" to 1.5
> inch reducer then a small piece of 1.5 " pipe then another reducer
> where now I can theoretically have the surface area of the wine down
> to less than 1.5" if I fill the barrel up into this "stack". I also
> can put a regular airlock on it with those v shaped corks. Now my
> question, will the primer and PVC cement dissolve when exposed to
> alcohol for long periods of time ? I'm really excited about this idea
> but as I was putting it together I realized I better not implement it
> until I find out the answer to this question.
>
>
> TIA,
>
> Bob

Tom,
Thanks for the response. I think your correct. I made a stack 3 days
ago to screw into the barrel and it still reeks of PVC cement. It's
weird that in some states PVC is allowed for domestic cold and hot
water. I ran across a PVC cement called Gorilla PVC cement which they
claim doesn't smell and is non-toxic. I was considering food grade PVC
pipe BUT they instruct you to attach them using regular PVC
cement????? Go figure. I also kooed at food grade silicone but I'm
not sure that is going to work. I either have to fine PVC connections
that screw together, use copper or stainless steel fittings or use
something like honey to fasten the PVC connections. Actually, I've
used PVC alittle and It's "usually" leak free with out all the caustic
crap that you need to hold it together. If anyone has any ideas I'm
open.

MikeMTM,

Yes you are correct the level could vary quite a bit BUT I can monitor
it.

As far as washing the smell out , I tried just plain warm water and
that didn't work. I'll try some bleach but what has me puzzeled is
that if this PVC cement is so "volatile" why does it still smell?????


Thanks everyone for the responses.

BOb



"Tom S" > wrote in message m>...
> "bob" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Tom,
> >
> > I've been "perusing" old threads with regard to the use of plastic
> > barrels for storage of wine and using PVC pipe in winemaking and see
> > you have some experience using this stuff so I will ask you this
> > question. I have 60 gallons of wine in a plastic barrel and I want to
> > reduce the headspace so I came up with this idea. I went to home depot
> > and got a 2" male fitting to screw into the hole in the top of the
> > barrel , then I put a small length of 2" pipe on that then a 2" to 1.5
> > inch reducer then a small piece of 1.5 " pipe then another reducer
> > where now I can theoretically have the surface area of the wine down
> > to less than 1.5" if I fill the barrel up into this "stack". I also
> > can put a regular airlock on it with those v shaped corks. Now my
> > question, will the primer and PVC cement dissolve when exposed to
> > alcohol for long periods of time ? I'm really excited about this idea
> > but as I was putting it together I realized I better not implement it
> > until I find out the answer to this question.
>
> Actually, I can't envision your concept very clearly - but if it involves
> immersing glued PVC fittings in the wine I'd say forget it.
>
> PVC pipe cement contains tetrahydrofuran. It's a fairly volatile solvent,
> but pretty nasty stuff. I wouldn't want any of that leaching into my wine.
>
> If your main concern is eliminating headspace in that plastic drum, why not
> fill it as much as possible with wine and sparge the headspace with argon or
> nitrogen? As long as the wine has adequate free SO2, that's a pretty safe
> way to maintain the wine. Of course that assumes that your plastic drum has
> good, airtight closures.
>
> The plastic drums I bought 20 years ago have problems. Initially they had a
> plasticy smell - even after thorough cleaning. Over the years, some cracks
> developed at the threaded areas, at the seams, and the caps started to
> develop leaks.
>
> The drums I bought a couple of years ago have none of those problems. Even
> when new, they had no plastic smell. The caps seal perfectly, thanks to a
> new design. All in all, I'd say that plastic containers have improved to
> the point where they're almost on a par with glass or stainless.
>
> You really need a gas bottle for winemaking anyway, so this might be the
> time to buy one (and a pressure regulator).
>
> Tom S

I'm not sure I can give good advice here, I have never like plastic
piping for potable water so cannot suggest good options for it's use
in winemaking. I have not seen it used in wineries for piping, it's
usually stainless for permanent connections and hoses for everything
else. They do make threaded plastic pipe by the way, that would solve
you problem.

Back to the original question though; why not throw a 2 x 4 under one
side of the drum to tilt it, then you can fill to the rim of the
opening and lose a lot of headspace. If you are worried about stress
cracking the drum just throw a hunk of 3/4 plywood on top of the 2 x 4
to give it a good base. You don't need much of a lean to really fill
that beast pretty full.

Mike's comment about the lack of volume buffering makes sense to me
too. Plastic has to have a higher coefficient of thermal expansion
than glass and my carboy levels can vary 3/4 of an inch in a week
during the winter. If you sealed the stack you would be making a huge
barometer in addition to the thermometer effect too.

Regards,
Joe



MikeMTM > wrote in message >...
> Bob,
>
> Another thought just occurred to me. With a 60 gal volume and such a
> small "stack" as you describe, the effect of expansion/contraction due
> to temp changes will be greatly magnified. I wouldn't be surprised it
> the level fluctuated by a couple of feet seasonally. Something to consider.

Joe,

I do have the barrel angled but being my usual paranoid self I was
trying to get the headspace to something I can see and measure
exactly. Tom S. suggested gas BUT I'm not comfortable with gas, I
can't see that either. I really don't see gas being in my future.
Actually, I took a tour of a winery in the finger lakes where they
were talking about gas blankets to keep the wine and later during the
tasting the Pinot Noir tasted like sherry so I figured they probably
got caught with their pants down when it came to their gas management.
The guy said it was the So2 I could taste because it was highly
sulfited. I said to myself "WHY would you HIGHLY sulfite a wine unless
you were trying to reverse some oxygen problem?". I didn't press the
issue. My new idea which I researched on the web last night was to use
"gelatin glue" , easy to make ( knox gelatin,water, skim milk) ,
non-toxic, and waterproof. If it does break down, I'll be fining the
wine early . BTW, why wouldn't the atmospheric pressure do the same
thing to the barrel without the stack as it would with it? That even
makes me more determined to get the wine down to 1.5 inch surface
area. As Tom S. said I need to keep the sulfite levels up but I got
this idea in my head and I can't get it out! I guess I'll have to wait
for a big storm to top up!. I'll keep everyone informed as to how it
goes.

Thanks for the responses

Bob


(Joe Sallustio) wrote in message om>...
> I'm not sure I can give good advice here, I have never like plastic
> piping for potable water so cannot suggest good options for it's use
> in winemaking. I have not seen it used in wineries for piping, it's
> usually stainless for permanent connections and hoses for everything
> else. They do make threaded plastic pipe by the way, that would solve
> you problem.
>
> Back to the original question though; why not throw a 2 x 4 under one
> side of the drum to tilt it, then you can fill to the rim of the
> opening and lose a lot of headspace. If you are worried about stress
> cracking the drum just throw a hunk of 3/4 plywood on top of the 2 x 4
> to give it a good base. You don't need much of a lean to really fill
> that beast pretty full.
>
> Mike's comment about the lack of volume buffering makes sense to me
> too. Plastic has to have a higher coefficient of thermal expansion
> than glass and my carboy levels can vary 3/4 of an inch in a week
> during the winter. If you sealed the stack you would be making a huge
> barometer in addition to the thermometer effect too.
>
> Regards,
> Joe
>
>
>
> MikeMTM > wrote in message >...
> > Bob,
> >
> > Another thought just occurred to me. With a 60 gal volume and such a
> > small "stack" as you describe, the effect of expansion/contraction due
> > to temp changes will be greatly magnified. I wouldn't be surprised it
> > the level fluctuated by a couple of feet seasonally. Something to consider.

"bob" > wrote in message
om...
> Joe,
>
> I do have the barrel angled but being my usual paranoid self I was
> trying to get the headspace to something I can see and measure
> exactly. Tom S. suggested gas BUT I'm not comfortable with gas, I
> can't see that either. I really don't see gas being in my future.
> Actually, I took a tour of a winery in the finger lakes where they
> were talking about gas blankets to keep the wine and later during the
> tasting the Pinot Noir tasted like sherry so I figured they probably
> got caught with their pants down when it came to their gas management.

Most people don't have sufficient appreciation of gas laws to realize that
there's really no such thing as "blanketing" with inert gas. If you have
two (or more) gases mixed, the heavier gas will _tend_ to sink to the
bottom, but the operative word here is "tend". IOW, the only way to assure
that wine under inert gas is fully protected is to purge ALL of the other
gases from the container before sealing it. Of course the best way to do
that is to pump inert gas into an inlet on one side and out a vent on the
other side. (Here's where you can put your plumbing skills to work! :^))
You need to let the gas run slowly until enough volume has passed through to
purge all the air. That usually takes 5 to 7 times the volume of the
headspace to accomplish satisfactorily. If you do that in an airtight
container, there's no concern that oxygen will come in contact with the
wine.

>My new idea which I researched on the web last night was to use
> "gelatin glue" , easy to make ( knox gelatin,water, skim milk) ,
> non-toxic, and waterproof.

Water_proof_? I seriously doubt that. Water _resistant_ maybe.

> BTW, why wouldn't the atmospheric pressure do the same
> thing to the barrel without the stack as it would with it? That even
> makes me more determined to get the wine down to 1.5 inch surface
> area.

Atmospheric pressure is not an issue with plastic barrels. Normal pressure
or thermal expansion effects are easily absorbed by the flexing of the
heads. Oddly enough, the pressure issue argues in favor of _increasing_ the
headspace in the barrel. That allows the gas to be the spring that absorbs
most of the pressure.

I often use a 30 gallon plastic drum for the odd fraction of wine that
wasn't enough to fill a 228 liter barrel. Toward the end of crush, ML may
still be going on a little in that drum. Instead of airlocking it, I
tighten the caps all the way and vent it once a week or so. Before I vent,
the head is usually bulging considerably, but it never has leaked. Those
plastic drums are incredibly tough and strong. I heard a story once about a
full 60 gallon drum that fell about ten feet off a stack of pallets. It
landed hard and bounced, but the plastic deformed like it was made of rubber
and absorbed the shock, and none of the contents was lost.

Tom S

Both of these are very nicely said Tom. Do you bubble your gases
through or just pass them in? I'm still into carboys but one day I
will begin using bigger containers and will probably want to do this.
It turns out most of the time my best wines are blends anyway, I
already know the proportions that work with what I get. I'm very
close to being talked into at least one Hungarian barrel...
Regards,
Joe


> Most people don't have sufficient appreciation of gas laws to realize that
> there's really no such thing as "blanketing" with inert gas. If you have
> two (or more) gases mixed, the heavier gas will _tend_ to sink to the
> bottom, but the operative word here is "tend". IOW, the only way to assure
> that wine under inert gas is fully protected is to purge ALL of the other
> gases from the container before sealing it. Of course the best way to do
> that is to pump inert gas into an inlet on one side and out a vent on the
> other side. (Here's where you can put your plumbing skills to work! :^))
> You need to let the gas run slowly until enough volume has passed through to
> purge all the air. That usually takes 5 to 7 times the volume of the
> headspace to accomplish satisfactorily. If you do that in an airtight
> container, there's no concern that oxygen will come in contact with the
> wine.
>
> > BTW, why wouldn't the atmospheric pressure do the same
> > thing to the barrel without the stack as it would with it? That even
> > makes me more determined to get the wine down to 1.5 inch surface
> > area.
>
> Atmospheric pressure is not an issue with plastic barrels. Normal pressure
> or thermal expansion effects are easily absorbed by the flexing of the
> heads. Oddly enough, the pressure issue argues in favor of _increasing_ the
> headspace in the barrel. That allows the gas to be the spring that absorbs
> most of the pressure.

> Tom S

"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
om...
> Both of these are very nicely said Tom. Do you bubble your gases
> through or just pass them in?

Thanks! I sometimes do one; sometimes the other. It depends on the
container. With a carboy, I usually put the hose in an inch or two above
the surface of the wine and run the gas slowly enough that it doesn't make
the wine bubble. After a few minutes (depending on the volume of headspace)
I withdraw the hose with the gas on and cork it the instant the hose is out
of the way.

I have some plastic drums with a large U shaped depression across the top
for the molded in handle. They have a large port on one side and a small
vent on the other side of the U. I sometimes have to bubble through the
wine to reach the opposite cavity. Also, bubbling through is sometimes
useful for stirring the wine in such a large container while adding finings.

> I'm very
> close to being talked into at least one Hungarian barrel...

Once you get into barrels there's no turning back! :^)

Tom S

Tom,
Thanks for the responses. The only question I have is........ besides
extended maceration what other reasons would I need gas if I have the
right sized containers for fermentation and long term storage? Why
would I ever need gas?Is there some other technique that I could use
gas on?


TIA,

Bob

"Tom S" > wrote in message om>...
> "Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Both of these are very nicely said Tom. Do you bubble your gases
> > through or just pass them in?
>
> Thanks! I sometimes do one; sometimes the other. It depends on the
> container. With a carboy, I usually put the hose in an inch or two above
> the surface of the wine and run the gas slowly enough that it doesn't make
> the wine bubble. After a few minutes (depending on the volume of headspace)
> I withdraw the hose with the gas on and cork it the instant the hose is out
> of the way.
>
> I have some plastic drums with a large U shaped depression across the top
> for the molded in handle. They have a large port on one side and a small
> vent on the other side of the U. I sometimes have to bubble through the
> wine to reach the opposite cavity. Also, bubbling through is sometimes
> useful for stirring the wine in such a large container while adding finings.
>
> > I'm very
> > close to being talked into at least one Hungarian barrel...
>
> Once you get into barrels there's no turning back! :^)
>
> Tom S

BTW,

You are correct the glue isn't waterproof and it really didn't really
adhere to the PVC pipe so I have another idea! WAX! I'm going to use
that to cement the pipe together , it adheres relatively well and it
won't break down from alcohol or water. Let you know, even if you
don't want to know! .

Bob



"Tom S" > wrote in message om>...
> "Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Both of these are very nicely said Tom. Do you bubble your gases
> > through or just pass them in?
>
> Thanks! I sometimes do one; sometimes the other. It depends on the
> container. With a carboy, I usually put the hose in an inch or two above
> the surface of the wine and run the gas slowly enough that it doesn't make
> the wine bubble. After a few minutes (depending on the volume of headspace)
> I withdraw the hose with the gas on and cork it the instant the hose is out
> of the way.
>
> I have some plastic drums with a large U shaped depression across the top
> for the molded in handle. They have a large port on one side and a small
> vent on the other side of the U. I sometimes have to bubble through the
> wine to reach the opposite cavity. Also, bubbling through is sometimes
> useful for stirring the wine in such a large container while adding finings.
>
> > I'm very
> > close to being talked into at least one Hungarian barrel...
>
> Once you get into barrels there's no turning back! :^)
>
> Tom S

"bob" > wrote in message
om...
> Tom,
> Thanks for the responses. The only question I have is........ besides
> extended maceration what other reasons would I need gas if I have the
> right sized containers for fermentation and long term storage? Why
> would I ever need gas?Is there some other technique that I could use
> gas on?

I find various uses for gas - both in the cellar and the kitchen.

I use inert gas for counterpressure racking barrels. That's the gentlest
way to move wine from a container. Of course you can lift a carboy to a
bench and gravity rack, but that still involves more exposure to oxygen.
Admittedly, that's not much of an issue with most reds, but can be with
white wines.

You can use a cylinder to sparge the neck of a bottle before ramming a cork
into it. That way, the gas you force into the wine and leave in the ullage
contains no oxygen.

In the kitchen, I use gas to purge the Cuisinart of air when making pesto.
That helps it to stay green better.

I also use gas to top off bottles of wine that I can't quite finish that
same day. That keeps them fresh for several days - even without
refrigeration.

I'm sure there are other uses. I'll leave that to your imagination.

Tom S