Bulk Age longer?
 

I'm wondering, when a wine is ready to be bottled and aged, is it better to
bottle at the appropriate time, or let it sit in the Carboy longer, and
bottle age for a shorter amount of time? Or does it not make a difference?

I usually wait for my fruit wines to clear, then I bottle a few days prior
to when I need the carboy for another batch of wine or beer. Now with
winter set in, I don't have much opportunity to brew beer outside (it's +5 F
and dropping right now), so I figure I could just let my wine sit for a
couple of more months in carboy then bottle when it's time to brew. But I
sure would like to be able to try the various wines out be time summer rolls
around, so I don't want to have to wait too long once they are bottled.

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Bulk Age longer?
 

There have been many debates on this topic. My thoughts are that a wine
will age more evenly in bulk. The temperature is more stable and the wine
will be more uniform, bottle to bottle, once you do bottle it. I age in
bulk as long as possible. I remember that C.J.J.Berry recommended to keep
it in bulk until a few months before you want to drink it and then bottle.
I think that is not a bad model. Takes less room that way and you need
fewer wine bottles. Of course you need more carboys.

Ray

"Don and Lisa Kerber" > wrote in message
...
> I'm wondering, when a wine is ready to be bottled and aged, is it better
to
> bottle at the appropriate time, or let it sit in the Carboy longer, and
> bottle age for a shorter amount of time? Or does it not make a
difference?
>
> I usually wait for my fruit wines to clear, then I bottle a few days prior
> to when I need the carboy for another batch of wine or beer. Now with
> winter set in, I don't have much opportunity to brew beer outside (it's +5
F
> and dropping right now), so I figure I could just let my wine sit for a
> couple of more months in carboy then bottle when it's time to brew. But I
> sure would like to be able to try the various wines out be time summer
rolls
> around, so I don't want to have to wait too long once they are bottled.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks
>
>

Bulk Age longer?
 

Don and Lisa, I don't know if there is a "correct" answer to this one.
I have done it many ways over the years and have arrived the
following personal preferences:

(1) Wine ages better in bulk if the temperature cannot be rigorously
controlled because bulk is more resistant to minor temperature
fluctuations.

(2) A wine should be in the bottle at least two months before drinking
to allow the wine time to recover from "bottle shock."

(3) Most wines require four to six in the bottle to develop bouquet.
Some require longer.

Using the above "lessons learned," I will typically bulk age a single
gallon of wine from six to twelve months, bottle it, and then open a
bottle at two months, another bottle at four months, another bottle at
six months, and another bottle at eight months. This will give me an
idea how much time the wine needs in the bottle.

With a five-gallon carboy, I might bulk age it six months, bottle a
gallon, transfer the remainder to a three-gallon carboy and a
one-gallon jug, and taste the first bottle three months later.
Depending on how that bottle tastes, I might then bottle the
one-gallon jug or the three-gallon carboy, saving what is left for a
later bottling still. This way you learn what a particular wine needs
in terms of aging.

I hope this is helpful.

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Bulk Age longer?
 

"Jack Keller" > wrote in message

> (2) A wine should be in the bottle at least two months before drinking
> to allow the wine time to recover from "bottle shock."

When bottling, you subject the wine to pressure as the cork is forced in,
then it takes some time to equalize. It this the only shock or is the
transfer and air exposure part of the equation?

If you want to drink some of the wine in a short time, say a week or two,
would using a screw cap eliminate the shock problem?
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

Bulk Age longer?
 

"Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote in message om>...
> "Jack Keller" > wrote in message
>
> When bottling, you subject the wine to pressure as the cork is forced in,
> then it takes some time to equalize. It this the only shock or is the
> transfer and air exposure part of the equation?
>
> If you want to drink some of the wine in a short time, say a week or two,
> would using a screw cap eliminate the shock problem?
> Ed
>
> http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

Hi Ed,

The bottling shock really isn't related to the cork or pressure but to
how the wine itself it handled. Air exposure, agitation, addition of
SO2 all appear to make wine a little disjointed or lifeless. This can
happen even if the wine isn't bottled but only transfered from one
container to another. The wine can seem very different before and
after transfer. I don't know if it happens to all wines, but I've seen
it enough to put off sensory evaluations of wine if something harsh
was done to it recently.

Andy

Bulk Age longer?
 

Thank you, Andy, for stepping in with the answer. I'm trying to bring
up a new computer and am having a devil of a time, so have been
offline for periods as I switch back and forth between old and new and
back to old. I think I've fixed the problems with the new one and
should be able to convert over tonight.

Yes, it is the agitation of the wine itself that causes bottle shock,
not the pressure applied through corking (which usually equalizes
itself within 48-72 hours). I have been told, although I have never
experienced this, that a wine can go into a "mini-shock" just from
transporting it roughly, although in context these claims were always
attributed to very old wines. Anyone else heard of this?

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Bulk Age longer?
 

Jack,
I have heard that statement, and many others like it. I have however
transported my wine thousands of miles and could not notice any ill effects.
Doesn't mean they don't exist, but not anything readily noticeable to me
anyways.
John Dixon

"Jack Keller" > wrote in message
om...
> Thank you, Andy, for stepping in with the answer. I'm trying to bring
> up a new computer and am having a devil of a time, so have been
> offline for periods as I switch back and forth between old and new and
> back to old. I think I've fixed the problems with the new one and
> should be able to convert over tonight.
>
> Yes, it is the agitation of the wine itself that causes bottle shock,
> not the pressure applied through corking (which usually equalizes
> itself within 48-72 hours). I have been told, although I have never
> experienced this, that a wine can go into a "mini-shock" just from
> transporting it roughly, although in context these claims were always
> attributed to very old wines. Anyone else heard of this?
>
> Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
> http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Bulk Age longer?
 

Jack, I have not heard that transporting can cause shock, though I am not
surprised that this is possible, but I have heard this as the reason you
should not store wine in a common refrigerator. Supposedly the vibrations
of the motor will keep the bottles in a constant state of bottle shock. I
have been suspicious of this but bottle shock is a reality and it just might
be true.

Ray

"Jack Keller" > wrote in message
om...
> Thank you, Andy, for stepping in with the answer. I'm trying to bring
> up a new computer and am having a devil of a time, so have been
> offline for periods as I switch back and forth between old and new and
> back to old. I think I've fixed the problems with the new one and
> should be able to convert over tonight.
>
> Yes, it is the agitation of the wine itself that causes bottle shock,
> not the pressure applied through corking (which usually equalizes
> itself within 48-72 hours). I have been told, although I have never
> experienced this, that a wine can go into a "mini-shock" just from
> transporting it roughly, although in context these claims were always
> attributed to very old wines. Anyone else heard of this?
>
> Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
> http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Bulk Age longer?
 

OK. so I guess the idea is that it is best (or at least no problem) to leave
the wine in a carboy until say a month or two before wanting to consume.
But what is this "Bottle Shock" stuff? Is it something that you can taste?
See? Feel? I don't filter, therefor some time in the bottle is helpful to
make that final clearing. But besides that the only real bottle shock that
I can think of that I realize is just how quickly my wine disappears after
it is bottled. It seems to last forever, if I keep it in the carboy, but
disappears quickly once bottled.


"Ray" > wrote in message
m...
> Jack, I have not heard that transporting can cause shock, though I am not
> surprised that this is possible, but I have heard this as the reason you
> should not store wine in a common refrigerator. Supposedly the vibrations
> of the motor will keep the bottles in a constant state of bottle shock. I
> have been suspicious of this but bottle shock is a reality and it just
might
> be true.
>
> Ray
>
> "Jack Keller" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Thank you, Andy, for stepping in with the answer. I'm trying to bring
> > up a new computer and am having a devil of a time, so have been
> > offline for periods as I switch back and forth between old and new and
> > back to old. I think I've fixed the problems with the new one and
> > should be able to convert over tonight.
> >
> > Yes, it is the agitation of the wine itself that causes bottle shock,
> > not the pressure applied through corking (which usually equalizes
> > itself within 48-72 hours). I have been told, although I have never
> > experienced this, that a wine can go into a "mini-shock" just from
> > transporting it roughly, although in context these claims were always
> > attributed to very old wines. Anyone else heard of this?
> >
> > Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
> > http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/
>
>

Bulk Age longer?
 

> OK. so I guess the idea is that it is best (or at least no problem) to leave
> the wine in a carboy until say a month or two before wanting to consume.
> But what is this "Bottle Shock" stuff? Is it something that you can taste?
> See? Feel?

Bottle shock is the name for the effect noticed when handling
wine. If you had a very good bottle of wine and re-bottled or
filtered and rebottled it and then compared it to another of
the same that had not been re-bottled you would notice the
difference. The wine would be said to have bottle shock, the
shock of bottling it. Also said to be induced by moving it
longer distances or as someone mentioned, storing it in a
electric motor/compressor driven fridge.

Don

Bulk Age longer?
 

There's been a lot of discussion around here about bulk aging, bottle aging,
bottle shock. My observations with my fruit and vegetable wines is that
they throw a lot of sediment in the first 3 months or so (during secondary
fermentation, after the more vigorous primary ferment). If I rack once or
twice during this time and top-up to get the wine off the sediment, I've
noticed my wines become very clear. Then, I leave the wine sit for at least
another 4 months in the carboy. Once again though, it depends on the wine,
some require more work than others. My feeling is that with some wines, I
should probably bulk age longer in the carboy, but I'm working at building
up my cellar first. Anyway, my wines stay in the carboy until they are at
least 7 months old, then I bottle and leave them sit. Depending on the type
of wine, I've found it pays to be patient and let them sit and bottle age
till they are at least a year old (avoiding the bottle shock) or longer. I
don't have any wine left from my first year, but I'm working at saving a bit
more than half from my second year. I think bulk aging and bottle aging are
equally important, and as you make more wines you'll get a feel for what
works best for you.
Darlene

"Don and Lisa Kerber" > wrote in message
...
> I'm wondering, when a wine is ready to be bottled and aged, is it better
to
> bottle at the appropriate time, or let it sit in the Carboy longer, and
> bottle age for a shorter amount of time? Or does it not make a
difference?
>
> I usually wait for my fruit wines to clear, then I bottle a few days prior
> to when I need the carboy for another batch of wine or beer. Now with
> winter set in, I don't have much opportunity to brew beer outside (it's +5
F
> and dropping right now), so I figure I could just let my wine sit for a
> couple of more months in carboy then bottle when it's time to brew. But I
> sure would like to be able to try the various wines out be time summer
rolls
> around, so I don't want to have to wait too long once they are bottled.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks
>
>

Bulk Age longer?
 

Darlene,
You have spoken a lot of sense that many others will echo on the NG.. The
question of aging is a thing that is so clearly experienced by us all..But
"bottle shock" -- which is very real -- doesn't seem to have been
quantified.
Why should a wine, which I sample during bottling, be so insipid and devoid
of character that day after bottling? It is usual for me to bottle age for
at least 3/4 months before opening but I prefer a longer time.
I would like to do a daily test to assess bottle shock --- if someone will
provide me with funds -- I will accept the risk to health!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire, England
Remove "SPAMLESS" from my address line to reply.
All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
Anti Virus for your protection too!
"Dar V" > wrote in message
...
> There's been a lot of discussion around here about bulk aging, bottle
aging,
> bottle shock. My observations with my fruit and vegetable wines is that
> they throw a lot of sediment in the first 3 months or so (during secondary
> fermentation, after the more vigorous primary ferment). If I rack once or
> twice during this time and top-up to get the wine off the sediment, I've
> noticed my wines become very clear. Then, I leave the wine sit for at
least
> another 4 months in the carboy. Once again though, it depends on the
wine,
> some require more work than others. My feeling is that with some wines, I
> should probably bulk age longer in the carboy, but I'm working at building
> up my cellar first. Anyway, my wines stay in the carboy until they are at
> least 7 months old, then I bottle and leave them sit. Depending on the
type
> of wine, I've found it pays to be patient and let them sit and bottle age
> till they are at least a year old (avoiding the bottle shock) or longer.
I
> don't have any wine left from my first year, but I'm working at saving a
bit
> more than half from my second year. I think bulk aging and bottle aging
are
> equally important, and as you make more wines you'll get a feel for what
> works best for you.
> Darlene
>
> "Don and Lisa Kerber" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I'm wondering, when a wine is ready to be bottled and aged, is it better
> to
> > bottle at the appropriate time, or let it sit in the Carboy longer, and
> > bottle age for a shorter amount of time? Or does it not make a
> difference?
> >
> > I usually wait for my fruit wines to clear, then I bottle a few days
prior
> > to when I need the carboy for another batch of wine or beer. Now with
> > winter set in, I don't have much opportunity to brew beer outside (it's
+5
> F
> > and dropping right now), so I figure I could just let my wine sit for a
> > couple of more months in carboy then bottle when it's time to brew. But
I
> > sure would like to be able to try the various wines out be time summer
> rolls
> > around, so I don't want to have to wait too long once they are bottled.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
>
>

Bulk Age longer?
 

Pinky,
That's an interesting point, maybe some of the more experienced will be able
to quantify "bottle shock" for you. Usually with my 1 gallon batches, I
have a glass of leftover wine (after bottling) which I taste and then write
down what I think of it (I've never noticed anything wrong with it). I use
this description to compare to opening the first bottle after some aging. I
think it takes time to recognize how the wine changes from bulk aging to
bottle aging. I've never opened a bottle within the "bottle shock" period.
But I did notice during my bottling with my early batches that the
(supposedly clear prior to bottling) wine in the bottles looked slightly
cloudy and then over the next week or so, the wine cleared, so I do think
there is something to the "bottle shock". As to a taste difference after
bottling, I don't know. I guess we all have our own expectations. My
brother sent me some of his wine for a Christmas gift. The grape wine he
made in July should be good, but there is about 1/4 inch of sediment in the
bottle. I think he probably bottled it too early - should have let it bulk
age a bit longer, racked it a couple more times to catch the sediment. He
was very happy with it, so who am I to tell him different. I'm afraid I'm a
bit more particular...but that is me.
Darlene

"Pinky" > wrote in message
...
> Darlene,
> You have spoken a lot of sense that many others will echo on the NG.. The
> question of aging is a thing that is so clearly experienced by us all..But
> "bottle shock" -- which is very real -- doesn't seem to have been
> quantified.
> Why should a wine, which I sample during bottling, be so insipid and
devoid
> of character that day after bottling? It is usual for me to bottle age for
> at least 3/4 months before opening but I prefer a longer time.
> I would like to do a daily test to assess bottle shock --- if someone
will
> provide me with funds -- I will accept the risk to health!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>
>
> --
> Trevor A Panther
> In South Yorkshire, England
> Remove "SPAMLESS" from my address line to reply.
> All outgoing mail is scanned by Norton
> Anti Virus for your protection too!
> "Dar V" > wrote in message
> ...
> > There's been a lot of discussion around here about bulk aging, bottle
> aging,
> > bottle shock. My observations with my fruit and vegetable wines is that
> > they throw a lot of sediment in the first 3 months or so (during
secondary
> > fermentation, after the more vigorous primary ferment). If I rack once
or
> > twice during this time and top-up to get the wine off the sediment, I've
> > noticed my wines become very clear. Then, I leave the wine sit for at
> least
> > another 4 months in the carboy. Once again though, it depends on the
> wine,
> > some require more work than others. My feeling is that with some wines,
I
> > should probably bulk age longer in the carboy, but I'm working at
building
> > up my cellar first. Anyway, my wines stay in the carboy until they are
at
> > least 7 months old, then I bottle and leave them sit. Depending on the
> type
> > of wine, I've found it pays to be patient and let them sit and bottle
age
> > till they are at least a year old (avoiding the bottle shock) or longer.
> I
> > don't have any wine left from my first year, but I'm working at saving a
> bit
> > more than half from my second year. I think bulk aging and bottle aging
> are
> > equally important, and as you make more wines you'll get a feel for what
> > works best for you.
> > Darlene
> >
> > "Don and Lisa Kerber" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I'm wondering, when a wine is ready to be bottled and aged, is it
better
> > to
> > > bottle at the appropriate time, or let it sit in the Carboy longer,
and
> > > bottle age for a shorter amount of time? Or does it not make a
> > difference?
> > >
> > > I usually wait for my fruit wines to clear, then I bottle a few days
> prior
> > > to when I need the carboy for another batch of wine or beer. Now
with
> > > winter set in, I don't have much opportunity to brew beer outside
(it's
> +5
> > F
> > > and dropping right now), so I figure I could just let my wine sit for
a
> > > couple of more months in carboy then bottle when it's time to brew.
But
> I
> > > sure would like to be able to try the various wines out be time summer
> > rolls
> > > around, so I don't want to have to wait too long once they are
bottled.
> > >
> > > Any thoughts?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Bulk Age longer?
 

> OK. so I guess the idea is that it is best (or at least no problem) to leave
> the wine in a carboy until say a month or two before wanting to consume.

I would say two, just to be safe.

> But what is this "Bottle Shock" stuff? Is it something that you can taste?
> See? Feel?

Don & Lisa, as has been said earlier in this thread, "bottle shock" is
when a wine goes totally flat for a period after bottling, although
this is really the extreme case. In less extreme cases, the wine
(especially whites) acquire an odor identical to oxidized wines, but
it disappears after several weeks.

As a wine judge in many competitions, I can usually tell when a wine
has been opened and "fiddled with" just prior to competition. The
winemaker may only be checking the residual sugar (specific gravity)
in the wine to enter it in the proper category, or may be adding sugar
to a dry wine to enter it in a sweet wine category, but whatever his
or her intentions, the wine is affected. In reds, it tastes flat, or
lifeless,

In whites, it also tastes flat, but often with the smell of oxidation
without possessing any other characteristics of having undergone
oxidation. This is unfortunate for the winemaker, as the wine
invariably gets marked down. Also, the wine loses its "bottle
bouquet," which takes several months to develop but is quite volatile
and easily lost once the wine is opened. When a wine has aroma but no
bouquet, I assume it was recently bottled or rebottled.

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Bulk Age longer?
 

> I'm wondering, when a wine is ready to be bottled and aged, is it better to
> bottle at the appropriate time, or let it sit in the Carboy longer, and
> bottle age for a shorter amount of time? Or does it not make a difference?


Might be an opportune time to re-post one of Lum's postings.

Don

-----

Wine ages in two different ways, and each type of aging changes the wine in
different ways.

Bulk aging takes place in large storage containers. Small amounts of air
are admitted each time the storage container is opened. Small amounts of
oxygen are present, and the oxygen slowly reacts with wine constituents
producing "oxidative" aging.

Bottle aging takes place after the wine is bottled. Sound corks do not
admit significant air, so no new air is present after the wine is bottled.
Oxygen is not involved in the this type of aging process. Sometimes, bottle
aging is called "reductive" aging (because no oxygen is present) and
reductive reactions in wine produce different types of materials than
oxidative aging. Only reductive or bottle aging produces "bottle bouquet."

The issue is oxygen, not big bottles or little bottles, and quality wines
are both bulk and bottle aged.

Regards,
lum

Bulk Age longer?
 

(Jack Keller) wrote in message . com>...
> I have been told, although I have never
> experienced this, that a wine can go into a "mini-shock" just from
> transporting it roughly, although in context these claims were always
> attributed to very old wines. Anyone else heard of this?
>
> Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
> http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

I have experienced it with commercial wines, even those that aren't
old. The old ones almost universally have a problem because the
sediment will be re-suspended in the wine.

For new releases, the trip from Europe to the US via a ship is
suspected of causing considerable bottle shock and current wisdom is
to let the wine rest before opening.

Of course, no one has ever accused me of following current wisdom :-),
so at times I have opened bottles without a rest and sometimes found
the same dulling of the wine. I'll open the same wine a month later to
find the wine as I expected, full of flavor.

The problem comes in really determining the cause. Was it bottle shock
or was it bottle variation? Could that dull bottle just happen to be
the one that, frankly, just wasn't good to begin with? There are also
wines that the first 3 or 6 bottles were very good and then the next
one just didn't live up to my expectations.

Who knows, but I tend to play it safe now and let all my wines (home
made and commercial) rest a month (or longer) before I open one.

Andy