Unfortunately I don't have a proper wine cellar and the temperature
fluctuations range from 45F-75F. Not to mention the humidity issues.

From what I understand temperature fluctuations can play havoc on wine
bottles due to expansion of the wine and the tiny air space. The cork could
be heaved, oxygen could be sucked in or pushed out. Either of these would
have a negative impact on the wine. Apparently magnum bottles fare better
than the standard 750ml when conditions are not ideal.

I have a 2002 Cab Franc in a 54L DJ and I am wondering if I should leave it
in the DJ until I am ready to indulge. If so what would be the process for
bulk aging for 2-3 years in the DJ? Should I rack annually so that a little
oxygen would be introduced? Should I seal it tight maybe use a cork bung?
Will the So2 levels remain constant or do I need to re-apply from time to
time?

thanks

Joe

"Joe Ae" > scribed upon the newsgroup scroll
:

> Unfortunately I don't have a proper wine cellar and the temperature
> fluctuations range from 45F-75F. Not to mention the humidity issues.
>
> From what I understand temperature fluctuations can play havoc on wine
> bottles due to expansion of the wine and the tiny air space. The cork
> could be heaved, oxygen could be sucked in or pushed out. Either of
> these would have a negative impact on the wine. Apparently magnum
> bottles fare better than the standard 750ml when conditions are not
> ideal.
>
> I have a 2002 Cab Franc in a 54L DJ and I am wondering if I should
> leave it in the DJ until I am ready to indulge. If so what would be
> the process for bulk aging for 2-3 years in the DJ? Should I rack
> annually so that a little oxygen would be introduced? Should I seal
> it tight maybe use a cork bung? Will the So2 levels remain constant or
> do I need to re-apply from time to time?

I don't have a real good answer, but if you don't get a good
direction here, I'll be glad to store it here in a more storage friendly
environment for, oh, gee, I dont' know, halves? <G>


--
Allen McBroom ><>
Remove WOOF when replying by email

"Joe Ae" > wrote:
> Unfortunately I don't have a proper wine cellar and the temperature
> fluctuations range from 45F-75F. Not to mention the humidity issues.
>
> From what I understand temperature fluctuations can play havoc on wine
> bottles due to expansion of the wine and the tiny air space. The cork
could
> be heaved, oxygen could be sucked in or pushed out. Either of these would
> have a negative impact on the wine. Apparently magnum bottles fare better
> than the standard 750ml when conditions are not ideal.
>
> I have a 2002 Cab Franc in a 54L DJ and I am wondering if I should leave
it
> in the DJ until I am ready to indulge. If so what would be the process
for
> bulk aging for 2-3 years in the DJ? Should I rack annually so that a
little
> oxygen would be introduced? Should I seal it tight maybe use a cork bung?
> Will the So2 levels remain constant or do I need to re-apply from time to
> time?

If the temperature fluctuations are gradual, i.e. over the solar year, it is
not as problematic as it would be if they were daily (where I live there is
a 30-50º difference between daytime and nighttime temperatures, which makes
cellar temperature control much more difficult, and essential).

There are ways of efficiently controlling temperature, and the smaller the
area requiring such control, the easier (and cheaper it is to do so). You
could build 4'x4'x4' indoor box for storage, with 6" of insulation on the
walls, floor, and ceiling. Bring the inside of the box, and the wine, to the
desired temperature, and it should hold for at least a week --- even in
arctic or desert regions. If possible, build a taller closet (with shelving)
and as large as space permits, against an outside wall. Cut a hole in the
outside wall for a "window air-conditioner" for summer time, and use a small
thermostatically-controlled space heater for winter-time. If there is no
outside wall available, use a ducting system to vent the a/c exhaust.
Adjusting a 45-75ºF ambient temperature to the 55ºF "ideal" should be fairly
easy. I have to deal with a 17-112ºF annual range.

Humidity-control is also fairly simple (if you have a "cellar" box).
Humidity can be added during dry seasons with pans of water and a fan.
Humidity can be exhausted during wet seasons with an a/c unit or exhaust
fan.

Whether the effort and expense is worth it for a single 54-litre demijohn is
a decision you will have to make on your own. If not, the 45-75º annual
fluctuation will probably do relatively little harm. Humidity shouldn't hurt
the wine in a sealed bottle, although it may cause mould to form on the
outside of a natural cork (artificial corks and rubber bungs will alleviate
this problem), or cause the label to come off.

As far as the expansion and contraction of the liquid within the bottle due
to temperature fluctuations:

1) It is my opinion and practice that one should leave sufficient headroom
(ullage) for the maximum anticipated temperature. Failure to do so may
result in popped corks (and thus oxidation and spoilage) and/or burst
bottles (and thus one hell of a mess). The best way to facilitate this is to
rack and bottle when temperatures are warmer, (and for the very paranoid:
purge the headroom of air, and replace it with sterilized CO2), and leave
one finger of headroom per gallon of liquid. Thus, when the temperature
drops, and the liquid contracts, no additional air is introduced, and a very
good vacuum seal is obtained. When the temperature rises (beyond that at
racking/bottling, perhaps because your a/c unit failed), there is sufficient
headroom to absorb the liquid expansion. I use solid rubber stoppers and
polymer "corks", and do not worry that the wine would age faster (or
better?) if "a little" oxygen were introduced via "breathing".

2) Another member of the newsgroup expressed a preference for topping up and
removing liquid from the storage vessels as the temperature changes. I
believe this to be faulty logic, that removing the stopper to adjust the
liquid level is exposing the wine to far more oxygen than "too low" a top-up
level, and that removing the stopper further risks the introduction of
spoilage organisms. However, if "a little" oxygen is a good thing, perhaps
this method has merit.

3) Other members prefer to bulk-age the wine under airlock, rather than
rubber stoppers. I find the practice dangerous. If the liquid expands into
the airlock, you are mixing (a contaminated sample of) whatever you use to
fill your airlocks with your wine. If the liquid contracts significantly, it
can suck that airlock-filler back into your wine. If the fluid in the
airlock dries up, you are left without any protection. The only advantage to
this method is that, if malolactic fermentation begins spontaneously, it
won't pop the cork or burst the bottle, but (IMO) MLF should either been
induced or permanently-prevented prior to bulk aging.

4) Other members prefer to drink their wine as soon after primary
fermentation ends as possible. There is much to be said for this, as it
saves 2-3 rackings, bottling, storage space, and the need to learn all those
funny French words for various flavour characteristics.

IMO, you should leave your 2002 Cab Franc in bulk storage for as long as
possible. Even when you are ready to indulge, rack some of it into
one-gallon (4 or 4.5 litre) carboys, and only bottle enough for your
immediate needs. Wine ages much better in bulk, and the difference is quite
noticeable even for a novice. There is no need for annual racking (unless a
heavy sediment develops), introducing "a little oxygen" (and various other
microbes). A laboratory-rubber stopper is my preference. A cork stopper
would require the demijohn be stored on its side. SO2 levels may derogate (I
believe there is a continuing chemical reaction), but since you will have
introduced no new organisms, that should not be a problem.

One member has said repeatedly that the less a wine is handled, the better
the result. I agree with him (on this subject).

And now I shall duck and wait the brickbats to begin flying.

There are two issues here. One is whether the temperature fluctuations
themselves hurt the wine and the other is whether the air that is pumped
into the wine due to the fluctuations hurt the wine.

Taking the second first. Over the range you are talking about I don't think
the effect would be extreme.

However this temperature range could pump quite a bit of air through an
airlock and this would not be good for the wine. As you mentioned, magnums
might be a solution. Another would be to put the wine in gal jugs and use
good screw type lids or solid rubber bungs with no airlock. But be sure the
wine is stable before you do this or you could end with some blown jugs.

There is the possibility that if you fill them too full, expansion of the
wine over the temperature range could generate enough pressure to break some
jugs as well. To avoid this, leave a little larger than normal head space
and flood the head space with inert gas using one of those spray cans you
can get at a wine store before sealing. The extra head space will act as a
cushion for the pressure as the fluid expands and contracts. Then any time
you need some wine, bottle a gal or two, put them back for a month or two
and they will be ready.

I would not recommend that you do this with 5 gal carboys as they would have
a greater tendency to break due to expansion of the wine.

Ray

"Joe Ae" > wrote in message
...
> Unfortunately I don't have a proper wine cellar and the temperature
> fluctuations range from 45F-75F. Not to mention the humidity issues.
>
> From what I understand temperature fluctuations can play havoc on wine
> bottles due to expansion of the wine and the tiny air space. The cork
could
> be heaved, oxygen could be sucked in or pushed out. Either of these would
> have a negative impact on the wine. Apparently magnum bottles fare better
> than the standard 750ml when conditions are not ideal.
>
> I have a 2002 Cab Franc in a 54L DJ and I am wondering if I should leave
it
> in the DJ until I am ready to indulge. If so what would be the process
for
> bulk aging for 2-3 years in the DJ? Should I rack annually so that a
little
> oxygen would be introduced? Should I seal it tight maybe use a cork bung?
> Will the So2 levels remain constant or do I need to re-apply from time to
> time?
>
> thanks
>
> Joe
>
>
>

"Negodki" > wrote in message
...
> "Joe Ae" > wrote:
> > Unfortunately I don't have a proper wine cellar and the temperature
> > fluctuations range from 45F-75F. Not to mention the humidity issues.
> >
> > From what I understand temperature fluctuations can play havoc on wine
> > bottles due to expansion of the wine and the tiny air space. The cork
> could
> > be heaved, oxygen could be sucked in or pushed out. Either of these
would
> > have a negative impact on the wine. Apparently magnum bottles fare
better
> > than the standard 750ml when conditions are not ideal.
> >
> > I have a 2002 Cab Franc in a 54L DJ and I am wondering if I should leave
> it
> > in the DJ until I am ready to indulge. If so what would be the process
> for
> > bulk aging for 2-3 years in the DJ? Should I rack annually so that a
> little
> > oxygen would be introduced? Should I seal it tight maybe use a cork
bung?
> > Will the So2 levels remain constant or do I need to re-apply from time
to
> > time?
>
> If the temperature fluctuations are gradual, i.e. over the solar year, it
is
> not as problematic as it would be if they were daily (where I live there
is
> a 30-50º difference between daytime and nighttime temperatures, which
makes
> cellar temperature control much more difficult, and essential).
>
> There are ways of efficiently controlling temperature, and the smaller the
> area requiring such control, the easier (and cheaper it is to do so). You
> could build 4'x4'x4' indoor box for storage, with 6" of insulation on the
> walls, floor, and ceiling. Bring the inside of the box, and the wine, to
the
> desired temperature, and it should hold for at least a week --- even in
> arctic or desert regions. If possible, build a taller closet (with
shelving)
> and as large as space permits, against an outside wall. Cut a hole in the
> outside wall for a "window air-conditioner" for summer time, and use a
small
> thermostatically-controlled space heater for winter-time. If there is no
> outside wall available, use a ducting system to vent the a/c exhaust.
> Adjusting a 45-75ºF ambient temperature to the 55ºF "ideal" should be
fairly
> easy. I have to deal with a 17-112ºF annual range.
>
> Humidity-control is also fairly simple (if you have a "cellar" box).
> Humidity can be added during dry seasons with pans of water and a fan.
> Humidity can be exhausted during wet seasons with an a/c unit or exhaust
> fan.
>
> Whether the effort and expense is worth it for a single 54-litre demijohn
is
> a decision you will have to make on your own. If not, the 45-75º annual
> fluctuation will probably do relatively little harm. Humidity shouldn't
hurt
> the wine in a sealed bottle, although it may cause mould to form on the
> outside of a natural cork (artificial corks and rubber bungs will
alleviate
> this problem), or cause the label to come off.
>
> As far as the expansion and contraction of the liquid within the bottle
due
> to temperature fluctuations:
>
> 1) It is my opinion and practice that one should leave sufficient headroom
> (ullage) for the maximum anticipated temperature. Failure to do so may
> result in popped corks (and thus oxidation and spoilage) and/or burst
> bottles (and thus one hell of a mess). The best way to facilitate this is
to
> rack and bottle when temperatures are warmer, (and for the very paranoid:
> purge the headroom of air, and replace it with sterilized CO2), and leave
> one finger of headroom per gallon of liquid. Thus, when the temperature
> drops, and the liquid contracts, no additional air is introduced, and a
very
> good vacuum seal is obtained. When the temperature rises (beyond that at
> racking/bottling, perhaps because your a/c unit failed), there is
sufficient
> headroom to absorb the liquid expansion. I use solid rubber stoppers and
> polymer "corks", and do not worry that the wine would age faster (or
> better?) if "a little" oxygen were introduced via "breathing".
>
> 2) Another member of the newsgroup expressed a preference for topping up
and
> removing liquid from the storage vessels as the temperature changes. I
> believe this to be faulty logic, that removing the stopper to adjust the
> liquid level is exposing the wine to far more oxygen than "too low" a
top-up
> level, and that removing the stopper further risks the introduction of
> spoilage organisms. However, if "a little" oxygen is a good thing, perhaps
> this method has merit.
>
> 3) Other members prefer to bulk-age the wine under airlock, rather than
> rubber stoppers. I find the practice dangerous. If the liquid expands into
> the airlock, you are mixing (a contaminated sample of) whatever you use to
> fill your airlocks with your wine. If the liquid contracts significantly,
it
> can suck that airlock-filler back into your wine. If the fluid in the
> airlock dries up, you are left without any protection. The only advantage
to
> this method is that, if malolactic fermentation begins spontaneously, it
> won't pop the cork or burst the bottle, but (IMO) MLF should either been
> induced or permanently-prevented prior to bulk aging.
>
> 4) Other members prefer to drink their wine as soon after primary
> fermentation ends as possible. There is much to be said for this, as it
> saves 2-3 rackings, bottling, storage space, and the need to learn all
those
> funny French words for various flavour characteristics.
>
> IMO, you should leave your 2002 Cab Franc in bulk storage for as long as
> possible. Even when you are ready to indulge, rack some of it into
> one-gallon (4 or 4.5 litre) carboys, and only bottle enough for your
> immediate needs. Wine ages much better in bulk, and the difference is
quite
> noticeable even for a novice. There is no need for annual racking (unless
a
> heavy sediment develops), introducing "a little oxygen" (and various other
> microbes). A laboratory-rubber stopper is my preference. A cork stopper
> would require the demijohn be stored on its side. SO2 levels may derogate
(I
> believe there is a continuing chemical reaction), but since you will have
> introduced no new organisms, that should not be a problem.
>
> One member has said repeatedly that the less a wine is handled, the better
> the result. I agree with him (on this subject).
>
> And now I shall duck and wait the brickbats to begin flying.
>
>
Negodki

Thanks for answering all my questions! I have followed many of your
postings and I wonder how you managed to learn so much about making wine?
Where are you located to experience such dramatic temperature fluctuations?

I am planning to install a passive wine cellar. I found a very interesting
book: "How and Why to Build a Wine Cellar" The problem is that it will
take me a while to get around to it. Of course I don't want to accidentally
disturb the wine so maybe I will take Allen's offer. On second thought I'll
just work carefully.

The temperature fluctuations in the existing storage are seasonal and
therefore gradual so I should be o.k. in a sealed glass container (54L DJ).
I won't bottle until I build the new wine cellar and can be assured that
temperature and humidity will be controlled. You suggested 1 finger of
headspace per gallon. Would that be a little too much for a 12 gallon DJ
(54litres)?


Joe

Hello Ray

At present the wine is in a 54L DJ (12 gallon glass container) with a
plastic cap and a few inches of head space.

If I understand you there is a risk that carboys could blow due to the
temperature fluctuations 45F-75F. You feel it is safer to use gallon
containers with appropriate headspace. Is this because the glass is not as
strong in carboys? Could I leave more headspace (filled with inert gas) in
the 12 gallon DJ to reduce the risk?

thanks

Joe


"Ray" > wrote in message
m...
> There are two issues here. One is whether the temperature fluctuations
> themselves hurt the wine and the other is whether the air that is pumped
> into the wine due to the fluctuations hurt the wine.
>
> Taking the second first. Over the range you are talking about I don't
think
> the effect would be extreme.
>
> However this temperature range could pump quite a bit of air through an
> airlock and this would not be good for the wine. As you mentioned,
magnums
> might be a solution. Another would be to put the wine in gal jugs and use
> good screw type lids or solid rubber bungs with no airlock. But be sure
the
> wine is stable before you do this or you could end with some blown jugs.
>
> There is the possibility that if you fill them too full, expansion of the
> wine over the temperature range could generate enough pressure to break
some
> jugs as well. To avoid this, leave a little larger than normal head space
> and flood the head space with inert gas using one of those spray cans you
> can get at a wine store before sealing. The extra head space will act as
a
> cushion for the pressure as the fluid expands and contracts. Then any
time
> you need some wine, bottle a gal or two, put them back for a month or two
> and they will be ready.
>
> I would not recommend that you do this with 5 gal carboys as they would
have
> a greater tendency to break due to expansion of the wine.
>
> Ray
>
> "Joe Ae" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Unfortunately I don't have a proper wine cellar and the temperature
> > fluctuations range from 45F-75F. Not to mention the humidity issues.
> >
> > From what I understand temperature fluctuations can play havoc on wine
> > bottles due to expansion of the wine and the tiny air space. The cork
> could
> > be heaved, oxygen could be sucked in or pushed out. Either of these
would
> > have a negative impact on the wine. Apparently magnum bottles fare
better
> > than the standard 750ml when conditions are not ideal.
> >
> > I have a 2002 Cab Franc in a 54L DJ and I am wondering if I should leave
> it
> > in the DJ until I am ready to indulge. If so what would be the process
> for
> > bulk aging for 2-3 years in the DJ? Should I rack annually so that a
> little
> > oxygen would be introduced? Should I seal it tight maybe use a cork
bung?
> > Will the So2 levels remain constant or do I need to re-apply from time
to
> > time?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Joe,

I do quite a bit of bulk aging although I don't have the teperature
fluctuations that you have. I am a big proponent of using an airlock
filled with sulfite solution. I make sure the SO2 is replaced every 6
months or so. On those rare occasions when a little wine pushes in a
modest exchange with SO2 doesn't hurt anything.

Works well for me.

Glen Duff

Joe Ae wrote:

> Hello Ray
>
> At present the wine is in a 54L DJ (12 gallon glass container) with a
> plastic cap and a few inches of head space.
>
> If I understand you there is a risk that carboys could blow due to the
> temperature fluctuations 45F-75F. You feel it is safer to use gallon
> containers with appropriate headspace. Is this because the glass is not as
> strong in carboys? Could I leave more headspace (filled with inert gas) in
> the 12 gallon DJ to reduce the risk?
>
> thanks
>
> Joe
>
>
> "Ray" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>>There are two issues here. One is whether the temperature fluctuations
>>themselves hurt the wine and the other is whether the air that is pumped
>>into the wine due to the fluctuations hurt the wine.
>>
>>Taking the second first. Over the range you are talking about I don't
>>
> think
>
>>the effect would be extreme.
>>
>>However this temperature range could pump quite a bit of air through an
>>airlock and this would not be good for the wine. As you mentioned,
>>
> magnums
>
>>might be a solution. Another would be to put the wine in gal jugs and use
>>good screw type lids or solid rubber bungs with no airlock. But be sure
>>
> the
>
>>wine is stable before you do this or you could end with some blown jugs.
>>
>>There is the possibility that if you fill them too full, expansion of the
>>wine over the temperature range could generate enough pressure to break
>>
> some
>
>>jugs as well. To avoid this, leave a little larger than normal head space
>>and flood the head space with inert gas using one of those spray cans you
>>can get at a wine store before sealing. The extra head space will act as
>>
> a
>
>>cushion for the pressure as the fluid expands and contracts. Then any
>>
> time
>
>>you need some wine, bottle a gal or two, put them back for a month or two
>>and they will be ready.
>>
>>I would not recommend that you do this with 5 gal carboys as they would
>>
> have
>
>>a greater tendency to break due to expansion of the wine.
>>
>>Ray
>>
>>"Joe Ae" > wrote in message
om...
>>
>>>Unfortunately I don't have a proper wine cellar and the temperature
>>>fluctuations range from 45F-75F. Not to mention the humidity issues.
>>>
>>>From what I understand temperature fluctuations can play havoc on wine
>>>bottles due to expansion of the wine and the tiny air space. The cork
>>>
>>could
>>
>>>be heaved, oxygen could be sucked in or pushed out. Either of these
>>>
> would
>
>>>have a negative impact on the wine. Apparently magnum bottles fare
>>>
> better
>
>>>than the standard 750ml when conditions are not ideal.
>>>
>>>I have a 2002 Cab Franc in a 54L DJ and I am wondering if I should leave
>>>
>>it
>>
>>>in the DJ until I am ready to indulge. If so what would be the process
>>>
>>for
>>
>>>bulk aging for 2-3 years in the DJ? Should I rack annually so that a
>>>
>>little
>>
>>>oxygen would be introduced? Should I seal it tight maybe use a cork
>>>
> bung?
>
>>>Will the So2 levels remain constant or do I need to re-apply from time
>>>
> to
>
>>>time?
>>>
>>>thanks
>>>
>>>Joe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

Joe Ae, In terms of carboy breakage, I was referring to using a solid bung.
Over that large of a temperature range you will have quite a bit of
expansion and contraction of the wine. A standard airlock is designed to
protect a 5-6 gal carboy with a moderate temperature range. With a 12 gal
carboy and a large temperature range you need to make some larger airlocks.
The expansion and contraction will pump air through a standard air lock. If
you try to protect it using a solid bung so you do not have to worry about
the airlock size, then you must worry about the pressure build up due to the
expansion and contraction and you must have a large enough head space such
that the gas will act as a cushion to protect the carboy. Otherwise the
carboy could rupture. I will try to do some calculations tonight and get
back with another post.

Ray
"Joe Ae" > wrote in message
...
> Hello Ray
>
> At present the wine is in a 54L DJ (12 gallon glass container) with a
> plastic cap and a few inches of head space.
>
> If I understand you there is a risk that carboys could blow due to the
> temperature fluctuations 45F-75F. You feel it is safer to use gallon
> containers with appropriate headspace. Is this because the glass is not
as
> strong in carboys? Could I leave more headspace (filled with inert gas)
in
> the 12 gallon DJ to reduce the risk?
>
> thanks
>
> Joe
>
>
> "Ray" > wrote in message
> m...
> > There are two issues here. One is whether the temperature fluctuations
> > themselves hurt the wine and the other is whether the air that is pumped
> > into the wine due to the fluctuations hurt the wine.
> >
> > Taking the second first. Over the range you are talking about I don't
> think
> > the effect would be extreme.
> >
> > However this temperature range could pump quite a bit of air through an
> > airlock and this would not be good for the wine. As you mentioned,
> magnums
> > might be a solution. Another would be to put the wine in gal jugs and
use
> > good screw type lids or solid rubber bungs with no airlock. But be sure
> the
> > wine is stable before you do this or you could end with some blown jugs.
> >
> > There is the possibility that if you fill them too full, expansion of
the
> > wine over the temperature range could generate enough pressure to break
> some
> > jugs as well. To avoid this, leave a little larger than normal head
space
> > and flood the head space with inert gas using one of those spray cans
you
> > can get at a wine store before sealing. The extra head space will act
as
> a
> > cushion for the pressure as the fluid expands and contracts. Then any
> time
> > you need some wine, bottle a gal or two, put them back for a month or
two
> > and they will be ready.
> >
> > I would not recommend that you do this with 5 gal carboys as they would
> have
> > a greater tendency to break due to expansion of the wine.
> >
> > Ray
> >
> > "Joe Ae" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Unfortunately I don't have a proper wine cellar and the temperature
> > > fluctuations range from 45F-75F. Not to mention the humidity issues.
> > >
> > > From what I understand temperature fluctuations can play havoc on wine
> > > bottles due to expansion of the wine and the tiny air space. The cork
> > could
> > > be heaved, oxygen could be sucked in or pushed out. Either of these
> would
> > > have a negative impact on the wine. Apparently magnum bottles fare
> better
> > > than the standard 750ml when conditions are not ideal.
> > >
> > > I have a 2002 Cab Franc in a 54L DJ and I am wondering if I should
leave
> > it
> > > in the DJ until I am ready to indulge. If so what would be the
process
> > for
> > > bulk aging for 2-3 years in the DJ? Should I rack annually so that a
> > little
> > > oxygen would be introduced? Should I seal it tight maybe use a cork
> bung?
> > > Will the So2 levels remain constant or do I need to re-apply from time
> to
> > > time?
> > >
> > > thanks
> > >
> > > Joe
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Ray, I have been making wine for a lonnnng time. I bulk age in carboys
where possible and have never had a carboy burst on me while filled
with wine. Further, I don't personally know anyone who has. I broke
one once when I set it down too hard on a cement floor, but that is my
only casualty ever. I don't think your worry is all that
well-founded. Carboys are pretty darned strong, even the cheap ones
made in Mexico (I have eight of those).

As for the risk of sucking airlock solution into the wine, I think
that too is much overstated. When bulk aging, I add 4 drops of
glycerin to the airlock and then 10% sulfite solution until the liquid
occupies about 1/3 of airlock. With the glycerin, the liquid in the
airlock will not drop 1/4 inch in four months. Further, with the
airlock filled to only 1/3, the liquid cannot be sucked up into the
wine; there just isn't enough of it to do that.

Ullage of one to one-and-a-half inches is all the cushion one needs
for a five- or six-gallon carboy. I wouldn't exceed two-and-a-half
inches for a twelve-gallon demijohn. If the top of the wine ever
approached the bottom of the bung, all you need do is watch it and
remove a bit with a wine thief if it made you nervous. I currently
have ten carboys and 24 gallon-jugs under airlock. I look at every
one of them at least once a week except when I'm out of town. If
something is going wrong, I see it.

You make bulk aging in carboys sound like a crap shoot and it isn't.
The only way it can go wrong (in my experience) is if someone (or the
dog) bumps the airlock and jars it loose -- or if one is negligent.

Sorry to be critical here, but I just think you are over-stating the
dangers of bulk aging in glass.

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

"Jack Keller" > wrote in message
om...
> Ray, I have been making wine for a lonnnng time. I bulk age in carboys
> where possible and have never had a carboy burst on me while filled
> with wine. Further, I don't personally know anyone who has. I broke
> one once when I set it down too hard on a cement floor, but that is my
> only casualty ever. I don't think your worry is all that
> well-founded. Carboys are pretty darned strong, even the cheap ones
> made in Mexico (I have eight of those).
>
> As for the risk of sucking airlock solution into the wine, I think
> that too is much overstated. When bulk aging, I add 4 drops of
> glycerin to the airlock and then 10% sulfite solution until the liquid
> occupies about 1/3 of airlock. With the glycerin, the liquid in the
> airlock will not drop 1/4 inch in four months. Further, with the
> airlock filled to only 1/3, the liquid cannot be sucked up into the
> wine; there just isn't enough of it to do that.
>
> Ullage of one to one-and-a-half inches is all the cushion one needs
> for a five- or six-gallon carboy. I wouldn't exceed two-and-a-half
> inches for a twelve-gallon demijohn. If the top of the wine ever
> approached the bottom of the bung, all you need do is watch it and
> remove a bit with a wine thief if it made you nervous. I currently
> have ten carboys and 24 gallon-jugs under airlock. I look at every
> one of them at least once a week except when I'm out of town. If
> something is going wrong, I see it.
>
> You make bulk aging in carboys sound like a crap shoot and it isn't.
> The only way it can go wrong (in my experience) is if someone (or the
> dog) bumps the airlock and jars it loose -- or if one is negligent.
>
> Sorry to be critical here, but I just think you are over-stating the
> dangers of bulk aging in glass.
>
> Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
> http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Thaks to all for the suggestions.
I have been storing wine in this environment (12 gal DJs) for a few years
and haven't had an accident (yet). I have left a couple of inches of
ullage. I will be more carefull now that I understand the risks.
I am in the process of insulating an area and hope to reduce the temp
fluctations dramatically so that I can start storing wine longer.

Jack, what does glyceride do for the airlock?

Joe

Joe, it's "glycerin," not "glyceride." When dealing with chemicals,
you have to get the spelling right. The difference between "sulfite"
and "sulfate," for example, can be a coma or even death. I'm not
belittling you, just telling you that words have meaning based upon
how they are spelled and what you spell is assumed to be what you
mean.

Glycerin, which is in all wines in trace amounts as a byproduct of
alcohol fermentation by yeast, takes a long time to evaporate. One
authority I was reading today suggested using pure glycerin in the
airlock because the amount you put in today will still be there four
months from now (so he claimed), but I prefer my own method because I
like to hear those bubbles (pure glycerin is very thick) and the
airlocks are easy to clean. Also, glycerin retards the growth of
mold, algae and other undesirables in the airlock (again, according to
this source), but so does 10% sulfite solution.

Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/

Thanks Jack! I must be staying up too late or taking too many samples. I
better stick with 10% sulfite.

Joe

"Jack Keller" > wrote in message
om...
> Joe, it's "glycerin," not "glyceride." When dealing with chemicals,
> you have to get the spelling right. The difference between "sulfite"
> and "sulfate," for example, can be a coma or even death. I'm not
> belittling you, just telling you that words have meaning based upon
> how they are spelled and what you spell is assumed to be what you
> mean.
>
> Glycerin, which is in all wines in trace amounts as a byproduct of
> alcohol fermentation by yeast, takes a long time to evaporate. One
> authority I was reading today suggested using pure glycerin in the
> airlock because the amount you put in today will still be there four
> months from now (so he claimed), but I prefer my own method because I
> like to hear those bubbles (pure glycerin is very thick) and the
> airlocks are easy to clean. Also, glycerin retards the growth of
> mold, algae and other undesirables in the airlock (again, according to
> this source), but so does 10% sulfite solution.
>
> Jack Keller, The Winemaking Home Page
> http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/