Wow Ed! I just started a Viogner tonight! Sorry I can't tell you the
results yet...
I went with the Brew King. I've always made wine the "old fashioned"
way with grapes, but couldn't find a supplier for this type here in
Oregon, so I went with the kit. This was my first kit, and am very
impressed with how easy they are, so far. We'll see.
If you don't mind, I'd like to tag a question along with yours.
Anyone every do a MLF with Viogner? The kit doesn't contain the MLF
culture, so I assume they don't intend the wine to go thru that step.
I love the buttery flavor in Chardonnays as a result of MLF, and
thought that might be a good compliment to the Viogner. Is it OK to
put a wine kit thru MLF?
Thad


"Ed Marks" > wrote in message >...
> I'd like to start a viognier to have for next summer, and would like to know
> if anyone has experience with any kits that are available. The two I've
> identified are Spagnols Cru Select Platinum Viogner and BrewKing Selection
> Viognier. Has anyone tried these and have any opinions about the quality of
> the finished wine, or are there other juice sources you'd suggest?
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
> Ed

Thad,

I started with kits, and am moving towards all grapes, but there are
varieties I'd like to try that for me are most easily tried with a kit.
Everything I've read says that kit juices should not be put through MLF.
They are already balanced in terms of acid content, and I believe they
contain large amounts of malic acid, so an MLF would leave it very flabby.

Since you usually use grapes, what was your impression of the juice in the
BK kit once you added the water? Did it seem to have different varietal
characteristics from what you're accustomed to with Chardonnay?

Thanks,

Ed



"StarrFarms1" > wrote in message
om...
> Wow Ed! I just started a Viogner tonight! Sorry I can't tell you the
> results yet...
> I went with the Brew King. I've always made wine the "old fashioned"
> way with grapes, but couldn't find a supplier for this type here in
> Oregon, so I went with the kit. This was my first kit, and am very
> impressed with how easy they are, so far. We'll see.
> If you don't mind, I'd like to tag a question along with yours.
> Anyone every do a MLF with Viogner? The kit doesn't contain the MLF
> culture, so I assume they don't intend the wine to go thru that step.
> I love the buttery flavor in Chardonnays as a result of MLF, and
> thought that might be a good compliment to the Viogner. Is it OK to
> put a wine kit thru MLF?
> Thad
>
>

Thad, do not put a wine kit through MLF. Kits are balanced for
acids. Best results if you build it as per instructions. MLF will
raise pH too much. Product will be flabby and unstable.
Chaptalization is fine if desired. Those comments from a recent
conversation I had with Tim Vandergrift of Brew King.

"Ed Marks" > wrote in message
...
> I'd like to start a viognier to have for next summer, and would like to
know
> if anyone has experience with any kits that are available. The two I've
> identified are Spagnols Cru Select Platinum Viogner and BrewKing
Selection
> Viognier. Has anyone tried these and have any opinions about the quality
of
> the finished wine, or are there other juice sources you'd suggest?

I did the Spagnol's. Twice. I was so disappointed with the first one, I
bought a second one, figuring I did something wrong. Same results. Even
though both dropped below 0 Brix, they have a cloying candy-like finish. I
wanted a nearly bone-dry wine, and having used K1-V on the second, figure
that everything that could ferment, did. I figure it's something created in
the concentration process, because I pick it up in a lot of kit wines. It
didn't jump out at me with varietal character, either. One of them got
bottled, and maybe something positive will happen there. The other I might
just use for blending.

Brian

Brian,

Thanks for the info - I'm sorry you had two disappointing experiences but
I'm glad you're willing to share it.
Out of curiousity, how long have these wines aged? I've noticed the same
"candy-like finish" on kit wines too, but
on the better (read, more expensive) ones I've done it's seemed to diminish
and there's more varietal character after about a year.

Ed

"> I did the Spagnol's. Twice. I was so disappointed with the first one, I
> bought a second one, figuring I did something wrong. Same results. Even
> though both dropped below 0 Brix, they have a cloying candy-like finish. I
> wanted a nearly bone-dry wine, and having used K1-V on the second, figure
> that everything that could ferment, did. I figure it's something created
in
> the concentration process, because I pick it up in a lot of kit wines. It
> didn't jump out at me with varietal character, either. One of them got
> bottled, and maybe something positive will happen there. The other I might
> just use for blending.
>
> Brian
>
>

Ed Marks wrote:
> I'd like to start a viognier to have for next summer, and would like to know
> if anyone has experience with any kits that are available. The two I've
> identified are Spagnols Cru Select Platinum Viogner and BrewKing Selection
> Viognier. Has anyone tried these and have any opinions about the quality of
> the finished wine, or are there other juice sources you'd suggest?
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
> Ed
>
>
Had the opportunity to taste the Kendall Ridge Showcase version done
exactly according to specs by the manufacturer. It's a good solid
white with decent body and a bit of depth. I would finish it drier
for myself, and could see it as an alternative to chardonnay, with
less acid and more fruit and none of that dairy-products aftertaste
(I'm not a chardonnay fan )

Les

I guess I'm confused on the purpose of ML fermentation. I understand
it is to lower the amount of lactic acid, but why would it leave the
wine flabby? Lets say you harvest grapes at just the right time.
Everything is balanced. You pitch the yeast and let it go. Then you
choose to put the wine thru MLF, sometimes it even happens
spontainiously. Wines made fresh don't come out flabby. Why would
the kit differ? I'm not trying to argue or say Tim Vandergrift
doesn't know what he is talking about. He probably knows everything
there is to know about kits, but what is the difference in the acid
balance of kits, and how it reacts to MLF? I've put all my Pinot's
thru MLF as just a matter of course, even when the numbers look
perfect. I've just considered MLF a stylistic aspect of my
winemaking. Great, now I'm jinxed. Now that I know they could come
out flabby, the next one will!
Is the only purpose of MLF to lower acid? The buttery, smooth flavors
are just a benificial side affect?
I've only tasted one Viognier that had undergone MLF, and it was
fantastic. I appreciate the "crisp, fruity" flavor most wineries are
trying to retain, but personally, I feel it is a much more enjoyable
wine having gone thru MLF.

> Thad, do not put a wine kit through MLF. Kits are balanced for
> acids. Best results if you build it as per instructions. MLF will
> raise pH too much. Product will be flabby and unstable.
> Chaptalization is fine if desired. Those comments from a recent
> conversation I had with Tim Vandergrift of Brew King.

Ed. Yes, there were very distinct differences between the kit
Viognier and fresh pressed Chardonnay's. I cant really say if it was
because one is fresh and the other was a kit, but the Viognier smelled
and tasted a little "cooked".
The Viognier juice was much more aromatic and fragrant. A wonderful
juice just to sip. I had to threaten my wife to keep her out of it.
The best Chardonnay's could only wish to have half of the depth and
character of the Viognier.

>Since you usually use grapes, what was your impression of the juice
in the
>BK kit once you added the water? Did it seem to have different
varietal
>characteristics from what you're accustomed to with Chardonnay?

Thanks,

Ed

Les,

Thanks for the feedback. Only problem is I can't seem to find a retailer
for this in the US.

Ed

"> Had the opportunity to taste the Kendall Ridge Showcase version done
> exactly according to specs by the manufacturer. It's a good solid
> white with decent body and a bit of depth. I would finish it drier
> for myself, and could see it as an alternative to chardonnay, with
> less acid and more fruit and none of that dairy-products aftertaste
> (I'm not a chardonnay fan )
>
> Les
>

Thad,

I'm glad to hear that the juice was that yummy - I'm leaning toward the
Brewking at this point since I've had good experiences with their kits so
far.

Regarding MLF, let me take a stab at answering your questions (I don't claim
to be an expert).

Why is it done? The reasons a
-biological stability - many wines, reds in particular, will undergo MLF
naturally at some point, so it's better to induce it and get it done
-flavor profile - the wine will taste softer when the malic acid is
converted to lactic acid, and there are by products, like the buttery taste
you mention, that many people like
-acid adjustment - MLF is one way to reduce the acidity of a wine that is
too acidic

Why would it make a wine flabby? Wines are flabby if they don't have enough
acidity. The juice in kits contain a lot of malic acid, and the acid
profile is intended to be the acid profile upon completion of the wine for
the best flavor. If you converted the malic acid to lactic acid it would
reduce the overall acidity and acid profile, so the taste would not be as
intended, and most likely flabby because of too little acidity. I guess you
could remedy that by adding tartaric acid, but the flavor profile might not
be good.

Why would wine made with grapes be different? It isn't, except that it's up
to the winemaker to decide what the flavor profile will be. If you've put
all your pinot's through MLF and they've come out fine, it's probably
because they started out with enough acid, beyond the malic, to taste good
after MLF. Like you said, it's a stylistic aspect of winemaking.

I hope that's helpful.

Ed


> I guess I'm confused on the purpose of ML fermentation. I understand
> it is to lower the amount of lactic acid, but why would it leave the
> wine flabby? Lets say you harvest grapes at just the right time.
> Everything is balanced. You pitch the yeast and let it go. Then you
> choose to put the wine thru MLF, sometimes it even happens
> spontainiously. Wines made fresh don't come out flabby. Why would
> the kit differ? I'm not trying to argue or say Tim Vandergrift
> doesn't know what he is talking about. He probably knows everything
> there is to know about kits, but what is the difference in the acid
> balance of kits, and how it reacts to MLF? I've put all my Pinot's
> thru MLF as just a matter of course, even when the numbers look
> perfect. I've just considered MLF a stylistic aspect of my
> winemaking. Great, now I'm jinxed. Now that I know they could come
> out flabby, the next one will!
> Is the only purpose of MLF to lower acid? The buttery, smooth flavors
> are just a benificial side affect?
> I've only tasted one Viognier that had undergone MLF, and it was
> fantastic. I appreciate the "crisp, fruity" flavor most wineries are
> trying to retain, but personally, I feel it is a much more enjoyable
> wine having gone thru MLF.
>
> > Thad, do not put a wine kit through MLF. Kits are balanced for
> > acids. Best results if you build it as per instructions. MLF will
> > raise pH too much. Product will be flabby and unstable.
> > Chaptalization is fine if desired. Those comments from a recent
> > conversation I had with Tim Vandergrift of Brew King.
>
> Ed. Yes, there were very distinct differences between the kit
> Viognier and fresh pressed Chardonnay's. I cant really say if it was
> because one is fresh and the other was a kit, but the Viognier smelled
> and tasted a little "cooked".
> The Viognier juice was much more aromatic and fragrant. A wonderful
> juice just to sip. I had to threaten my wife to keep her out of it.
> The best Chardonnay's could only wish to have half of the depth and
> character of the Viognier.
>

"Ed Marks" > wrote in message
...
> Brian,
>
> Thanks for the info - I'm sorry you had two disappointing experiences but
> I'm glad you're willing to share it.
> Out of curiousity, how long have these wines aged?

Don't have the log book handy, but I do know the Viognier comes after last
year's grape wine, so it must be less than a year even for the older of the
two. As I said, I'm patient, and I'm quite content to do stuff for
investigative purposes, even if nothing truly enjoyable comes of it.

As long as my beer turns out. ;-)

Brian

Brian - If you find that the Viognier comes around please let me know - in
the meantime, enjoy the beers!

Ed

">
> Don't have the log book handy, but I do know the Viognier comes after last
> year's grape wine, so it must be less than a year even for the older of
the
> two. As I said, I'm patient, and I'm quite content to do stuff for
> investigative purposes, even if nothing truly enjoyable comes of it.
>
> As long as my beer turns out. ;-)
>
> Brian
>
>

Ed:

Any Vineco retailer will be able to order this kit for you. The
Kendall Ridge Collection California Viognier is a Limited Edition kit
that won't be available until January. Orders MUST be placed by
your dealer by the end of December (last year all three KR Collection
kits sold out).

See www.vineco.on.ca for details, and (hopefully) to find a retailer.

Don't know how Les was lucky enuff to get an advance sample. Maybe
when I'm in Ontario for Christmas, my Vineco salesman will be able to
arrange something <grin>.

Steve

>Les,
>
>Thanks for the feedback. Only problem is I can't seem to find a retailer
>for this in the US.
>
>Ed
>
>"> Had the opportunity to taste the Kendall Ridge Showcase version done
>> exactly according to specs by the manufacturer. It's a good solid
>> white with decent body and a bit of depth. I would finish it drier
>> for myself, and could see it as an alternative to chardonnay, with
>> less acid and more fruit and none of that dairy-products aftertaste
>> (I'm not a chardonnay fan )
>>
>> Les
>>
>

Thanks Steve - I'll check their web site.

"Steve Waller" > wrote in message
...
> Ed:
>
> Any Vineco retailer will be able to order this kit for you. The
> Kendall Ridge Collection California Viognier is a Limited Edition kit
> that won't be available until January. Orders MUST be placed by
> your dealer by the end of December (last year all three KR Collection
> kits sold out).
>
> See www.vineco.on.ca for details, and (hopefully) to find a retailer.
>
> Don't know how Les was lucky enuff to get an advance sample. Maybe
> when I'm in Ontario for Christmas, my Vineco salesman will be able to
> arrange something <grin>.
>
> Steve
>
> >Les,
>

"Ed Marks" > wrote in message
...
> Brian - If you find that the Viognier comes around please let me know - in
> the meantime, enjoy the beers!

Actually, I was wrong, the new one is just coming up on a year old, and the
older one is about a year and a half old. Not that it matters anymore, the
two got blended so I suppose it is no longer a "vintage wine". ;-)

In any case, I opened a bottle the other night to see how it is developing.
It seems to be pleasant enough, there were some honey and citrus aromatics,
no apricot. The cloying character seems to be dissipating, so maybe there is
hope.

I'm actually thinking of tossing the unbottled carboy into barrel to see
what a hit of oak does to it. Maybe blend it with some Chard.

Brian

It sounds like it is coming around, although maybe not as much as you'd
like. Happy barrelling!

Ed

"> Actually, I was wrong, the new one is just coming up on a year old, and
the
> older one is about a year and a half old. Not that it matters anymore, the
> two got blended so I suppose it is no longer a "vintage wine". ;-)
>
> In any case, I opened a bottle the other night to see how it is
developing.
> It seems to be pleasant enough, there were some honey and citrus
aromatics,
> no apricot. The cloying character seems to be dissipating, so maybe there
is
> hope.
>
> I'm actually thinking of tossing the unbottled carboy into barrel to see
> what a hit of oak does to it. Maybe blend it with some Chard.
>
> Brian
>
>

> Thad, do not put a wine kit through MLF. Kits are balanced for
> acids. <snip>

The real reason to not put a kit through MLF is the possible
presence of potassium sorbate. An MLF with traces of that
chemical will result in the germanium stink.

Don