What happens when bentonite is added to a red wine, in respect to colour
loss? Does it convert a deep red into a blush, or is the change relatively
small?

"Negodki" > wrote in message
...
> What happens when bentonite is added to a red wine, in respect to colour
> loss? Does it convert a deep red into a blush, or is the change
relatively
> small?
>

The color change is relatively small. If you tried to made a blush out of a
red wine, excessive amounts of Bentonite would be needed and there wouldn't
be much flavor left.

"Negodki" > wrote in message
...
> What happens when bentonite is added to a red wine, in respect to colour
> loss? Does it convert a deep red into a blush, or is the change
relatively
> small?

In normal amounts (a few pounds/1000 gal), bentonite produces no noticeable
color shift in either red or white wines. I have noticed that it may
improve clarity and aroma of some reds - particularly Pinot Noir. It also
helps prevent the protein haze that I commonly find in Pinot Noir, and the
amount required is on the order of 1 lb/1000 gal.

Tom S

No, bentonite will not make a hugely noticeable change in the color of a red
wine.
That's not the reason that we don't use it as a rule, though.

Red wine will normally clarify without fining.
If red wine has a (protein) haze you can clarify it with bentonite.

Bentonite acts as a magnet in the wine to remove positively charged
molecules. The bentonite has a negative charge, and bonds with the
filtrate.
It will help the wine clear, but it also takes some of the taste and color
with it.

I prefer not to use bentonite to clear any of my wine, as I find that it
produces a large amount of lees that are "fluffy" and hard to rack off
without disturbing the it. I much prefer bulk aging the wine in the carboy
for 3 months or longer. This bulk aging also improves the quality of the
wine itself. It's a win-win situation, as long as you have the patience.

I don't really have a lot of patience, so I just make a lot of
wine...usually have 3 carboys at various stages on the go.

Bottled some lovely chiati last night.....mmmm

Lucy



"Negodki" > wrote in message
...
> What happens when bentonite is added to a red wine, in respect to colour
> loss? Does it convert a deep red into a blush, or is the change
relatively
> small?
>
>

"pianogal" > wrote:

> No, bentonite will not make a hugely noticeable change in the color of a
red
> wine.

Thank you. That's what I wanted to know.

> That's not the reason that we don't use it as a rule, though.

What is the reason we don't use it as a rule?

> Red wine will normally clarify without fining.

Normally it does. That's because the tannins themselves will precipitate
positively-charged molecules, especially if the wine is oaked..

> If red wine has a (protein) haze you can clarify it with bentonite.

Thank you. The question was what effect doing so would have on the colour.

> Bentonite acts as a magnet in the wine to remove positively charged
> molecules. The bentonite has a negative charge, and bonds with the
> filtrate.

Yes, I know.

> It will help the wine clear, but it also takes some of the taste and color
> with it.

And thus my question.

> I prefer not to use bentonite to clear any of my wine, as I find that it
> produces a large amount of lees that are "fluffy" and hard to rack off
> without disturbing the it. I much prefer bulk aging the wine in the
carboy
> for 3 months or longer. This bulk aging also improves the quality of the
> wine itself. It's a win-win situation, as long as you have the patience.

I wouldn't dream of using fining agents, unless the wine failed to cleared
by itself within a year's aging. In fact, I used bentonite for the first
time this year (on a stubborn apple wine). Results were impressive; loss of
flavour and/or colour was undetectable. The "common wisdom" is that
bentonite should not be used on reds because of the colour loss. However, if
the loss of colour in the apple was any indication, perhaps the colour loss
is not significant enough to worry about. Thus the question.

> I don't really have a lot of patience, so I just make a lot of
> wine...usually have 3 carboys at various stages on the go.

I have a lot of patience. I have about 100 carboys at various stages of
fermentation and aging. I don't bottle until I need empty carboys for the
next year's production.

> Bottled some lovely chiati last night.....mmmm

Drank some lovely Sand Emiliano last night....mmmmmmm

"Negodki" > wrote in message
...
> "pianogal" > wrote:
> > It will help the wine clear, but it also takes some of the taste and
color
> > with it.
>
> And thus my question.

My experience with bentonite in red wine is that even in small doses (~1-2
lb/1000 gal) it can dramatically improve the nose and bring the fruit to the
fore on the palate.

> > I prefer not to use bentonite to clear any of my wine, as I find that it
> > produces a large amount of lees that are "fluffy" and hard to rack off
> > without disturbing the it. I much prefer bulk aging the wine in the
> carboy
> > for 3 months or longer. This bulk aging also improves the quality of
the
> > wine itself. It's a win-win situation, as long as you have the
patience.

I can recover almost all the wine from bentonite lees by centrifugation in 2
liter plastic bottles in a washing machine on the spin cycle. Try it! It
works better on my specially modified machine, but it works OK on a normal
machine. Give it several cycles on "spin".

BTW, bulk aging is also a good thing. It's not the _only_ thing though.

> I wouldn't dream of using fining agents, unless the wine failed to cleared
> by itself within a year's aging.

If you think that fining agents are all about removing suspended solids, you
don't understand fining.

Fining is best done on a wine that is nearly or already clear. The idea is
to improve the _flavor_ - not to achieve clarity, although improved clarity
will frequently be a side benefit.

The use of the right amounts of certain fining agents can turn a mediocre
wine into a good wine, or a good wine into a _great_ wine!

It's necessary to conduct fining trials on any specific wine to determine
its best fining regimen, but that isn't really as hard to do as it sounds.

In fact, I used bentonite for the first
> time this year (on a stubborn apple wine). Results were impressive; loss
of
> flavour and/or colour was undetectable. The "common wisdom" is that
> bentonite should not be used on reds because of the colour loss.

My experience tells me that conventional wisdom is false in this regard.
You'd have to use a LOT of bentonite to strip color from a red wine - too
much to be considered normal or reasonable.

Also, a _light_ bentonite fining is recommended for any wine (including
reds) that you plan to filter. Makes things go easier and helps prevent the
pads/media from clogging up.

Tom S

Tom S
What would you consider a light bentonite for a 23 l kit, red or white?
Thank you.
Kevin

"Kevin" > wrote in message
m...
> Tom S
> What would you consider a light bentonite for a 23 l kit, red or white?
> Thank you.

One to two pounds per thousand gallons. Be sure to thoroughly hydrate the
bentonite first in hot water (~50g/l), let it sit overnight, and mix it in
slowly while stirring the wine vigorously.

Tom S

Mixing bentonite thoroughly is so easy to say/type... But it is truly
difficult to do.. Does anyone have any hints on how to do this
without using an industrial blender???



On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 06:36:48 GMT, "Tom S" >
wrote:

>
>"Kevin" > wrote in message
om...
>> Tom S
>> What would you consider a light bentonite for a 23 l kit, red or white?
>> Thank you.
>
>One to two pounds per thousand gallons. Be sure to thoroughly hydrate the
>bentonite first in hot water (~50g/l), let it sit overnight, and mix it in
>slowly while stirring the wine vigorously.
>
>Tom S
>

A.J. Rawls wrote:

> Mixing bentonite thoroughly is so easy to say/type... But it is truly
> difficult to do.. Does anyone have any hints on how to do this
> without using an industrial blender???

I mixed it fine with an egg beater. A household blender would work as
well, however the bentonite will etch the plastic apparently.
--
charles

"Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were
forced to live on nothing but food and water for days."
- W.C. Fields

"A.J. Rawls" > wrote:

> Mixing bentonite thoroughly is so easy to say/type... But it is truly
> difficult to do.. Does anyone have any hints on how to do this
> without using an industrial blender???

The method suggested in CJJ Berry's "First Steps" is to mix 4.5 tsp (~21
gms) bentonite and 250 ml of hot water in a one pint jar, and shake it
vigorously. Then let sit 12-24 hours. [This provides enough "slurry" to
treat a 5-gallon batch.] I've tried this, and it seems to work well. I use
a 16-oz plastic bottle, such as those in which vitamin tablets are sold.

An alternative, which I prefer, is to use 250 ml of must rather than hot
water. There is no need to heat the must, the slurry is ready for use in
less time, and there is no dilution of your wine.

As to mixing the bentonite slurry into the wine, CJJ suggests "shaking" the
carboy gently for 30 minutes to keep the bentonite in suspension. I prefer
stirring it with a glass or plastic rod (a racking cane will do the job).
One of these days, I plan to put a small motor on a stainless steel rod, so
I can do other things while the must is being stirred.

"A.J. Rawls" > wrote in message
...
> Mixing bentonite thoroughly is so easy to say/type... But it is truly
> difficult to do.. Does anyone have any hints on how to do this
> without using an industrial blender???

Agglomerated bentonite is a lot easier to mix than the traditional stuff,
which tends to lump if you add it too rapidly to water. Still, either can
be mixed pretty easily in an Osterizer. Eventually you'll have to replace
the impeller assembly because the bentonite wears out the seals.

Don't try to put more than 50 or 60 grams per liter, and use *hot* water.

Tom S

In making wine from kits, I noticed two types of bentonite:

Brew King--mixes instantly in warm water with a spoon if you sprinkle
it in slowly.

Vineco--lumps like hell and even a blender doesn't always smooth it
out.

Ask your dealer to buy you the Brew King bentonite by the kg, the
price is veryr easonable in bulk.--Irene


"Tom S" > wrote in message . com>...
> "Kevin" > wrote in message
> m...
> > Tom S
> > What would you consider a light bentonite for a 23 l kit, red or white?
> > Thank you.
>
> One to two pounds per thousand gallons. Be sure to thoroughly hydrate the
> bentonite first in hot water (~50g/l), let it sit overnight, and mix it in
> slowly while stirring the wine vigorously.
>
> Tom S

I think you may be referring to agglomerated and non-agglomerated bentonite.

"Irene" > wrote in message
om...
> In making wine from kits, I noticed two types of bentonite:
>
> Brew King--mixes instantly in warm water with a spoon if you sprinkle
> it in slowly.
>
> Vineco--lumps like hell and even a blender doesn't always smooth it
> out.
>
> Ask your dealer to buy you the Brew King bentonite by the kg, the
> price is veryr easonable in bulk.--Irene
>
>
> "Tom S" > wrote in message
. com>...
> > "Kevin" > wrote in message
> > m...
> > > Tom S
> > > What would you consider a light bentonite for a 23 l kit, red or
white?
> > > Thank you.
> >
> > One to two pounds per thousand gallons. Be sure to thoroughly hydrate
the
> > bentonite first in hot water (~50g/l), let it sit overnight, and mix it
in
> > slowly while stirring the wine vigorously.
> >
> > Tom S

In article >, (Irene) wrote:
>In making wine from kits, I noticed two types of bentonite:
>
>Brew King--mixes instantly in warm water with a spoon if you sprinkle
>it in slowly.
>
>Vineco--lumps like hell and even a blender doesn't always smooth it
>out.

Just added bentonite to a black-currant wine. I just wondered how long it can
be in the wine before must do something with the wine?

Can bentonite do any harm if it stay on the carboy for a longer time?

Jørn Dahl-Stamnes, EDB Teamco AS
e-mail: (remove nospam first)
web: http://spiderman.novit.no/dahls/

"Jørn Dahl-Stamnes" > wrote in message
...
> Just added bentonite to a black-currant wine. I just wondered how long it
can
> be in the wine before must do something with the wine?
>
> Can bentonite do any harm if it stay on the carboy for a longer time?

No.

Tom S

try this: http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/2,1319.html just attach
it to a drill and viola!

Bob

"Negodki" > wrote in message >...
> "A.J. Rawls" > wrote:
>
> > Mixing bentonite thoroughly is so easy to say/type... But it is truly
> > difficult to do.. Does anyone have any hints on how to do this
> > without using an industrial blender???
>
> The method suggested in CJJ Berry's "First Steps" is to mix 4.5 tsp (~21
> gms) bentonite and 250 ml of hot water in a one pint jar, and shake it
> vigorously. Then let sit 12-24 hours. [This provides enough "slurry" to
> treat a 5-gallon batch.] I've tried this, and it seems to work well. I use
> a 16-oz plastic bottle, such as those in which vitamin tablets are sold.
>
> An alternative, which I prefer, is to use 250 ml of must rather than hot
> water. There is no need to heat the must, the slurry is ready for use in
> less time, and there is no dilution of your wine.
>
> As to mixing the bentonite slurry into the wine, CJJ suggests "shaking" the
> carboy gently for 30 minutes to keep the bentonite in suspension. I prefer
> stirring it with a glass or plastic rod (a racking cane will do the job).
> One of these days, I plan to put a small motor on a stainless steel rod, so
> I can do other things while the must is being stirred.