Cheap oak "cask"
 

So I'm really only a small-scale hobbyist... I make a gallon here and
there of various fruit wines when my organic food "subcription
service" delivers a lot of plums, pears, grapes, etc... but I'm
intrigued by the idea of aging my wine on oak.

Oak casks seem really expensive, though... are there other
alternatives? What I'm contemplating is making a tight box out of oak
and a biscuit joiner for the corners, then sealing the bottom and
sides with parrafin, leaving the top open.

I would then add another oak piece with a 1" hole in it for the top,
biscuit-joining it with warm wax spread all over it so the wax would
squeeze out and seal the cracks; put a bung and airlock in the hole
and remove it to put wine in/siphon wine out.

All things considered, this seems a lot cheaper than buying a cask,
and I can't see the headspace being all that different... maybe a bit
more, but it's still a broad flat top no matter how you slice it (and
I could even make a tall, skinny oak box to minimize headspace, or go
all-out and have it taper).

Problems with this plan? Anyone have similar experiences?

- Matt
www.man-man.org

Cheap oak "cask"
 

Matt Shepherd wrote:

> Problems with this plan? Anyone have similar experiences?

Sounds like a lot of work :^)

I'm not an expert on the properties of wood, but consider that if you
had 100 litres of wine in there, it would weigh something like 120
kilos(?) and that is a fair amount of weight...

You'd want to make sure you get white oak to build your box as opposed
to something like red oak. Consider drying the oak somehow, since oak
for wine barrels is usually air dried for 1-2 years.

Depending on where you are, there are usually sources around for used
barrels which can be a good starting point. Our used barrel was
purchased for C$160 and it was re-finished on the inside as well. I
think it's a good comprimise considering the cost of new barrels.

I have also seen smaller Portuguese barrels for sale at the local
stores, a 50 litre was only C$60. HTH

--
charles

"Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were
forced to live on nothing but food and water for days."
- W.C. Fields

Cheap oak "cask"
 

"Matt Shepherd" > wrote:

> Oak casks seem really expensive, though... are there other
> alternatives? What I'm contemplating is making a tight box out of oak
> and a biscuit joiner for the corners, then sealing the bottom and
> sides with parrafin, leaving the top open.
>
> I would then add another oak piece with a 1" hole in it for the top,
> biscuit-joining it with warm wax spread all over it so the wax would
> squeeze out and seal the cracks; put a bung and airlock in the hole
> and remove it to put wine in/siphon wine out.
>
> All things considered, this seems a lot cheaper than buying a cask,
> and I can't see the headspace being all that different... maybe a bit
> more, but it's still a broad flat top no matter how you slice it (and
> I could even make a tall, skinny oak box to minimize headspace, or go
> all-out and have it taper).
>
> Problems with this plan? Anyone have similar experiences?

1) If oak costs what it does here, I don't think you will save much money
for your efforts. A box will take more oak than a barrel of equal volume.

2) I don't know what effect the paraffin and wax might have on the wine (or
the wine on the paraffin/wax seal), but I don't think it will be desirable.

3) The headspace of a box will be significantly greater than a barrel, as
will be the exposed surface area.

For simplicity's sake, I will treat a barrel as a circular cylinder,
ignoring the longitudinal taper.

A 15-gallon barrel is approximately 14" in diameter, and 22" in height.

A similarly-shaped 15-gallon box would be 12.55" wide, 12.55" deep, and 22"
height.

If you fill the barrel up to 1" from the top, you will have ~ 22" x 8" = 176
square inches of surface area exposed, and a headspace volume ~22" x 8/2 =
88 cubic inches. [Not having the precise formulae handy, I measured the arc
across a 14" circle, 1" from below the edge. That is ~8". I then treated the
arced area as a triangle to calculate its volume. This is slightly smaller
than its actual volume.]

If you fill the barrel up to 1/2" from the top, you will have ~22 x 5" = 110
square inches of surface area, and 55 cubic inches of headspace.

If you fill the box up to 1" from the top, you will have 12.55 x 22 = 276
square inches of surface area exposed, and a headspace volume of 276 cubic
inches.

If you fill the box up to 1/2" from the top, you will have 12.55 x 22 = 276
square inches of surface area exposed, and a headspace volume of 138 cubic
inches.

Since the barrel sides are actually arced in both directions, there is even
less surface area and headspace than in my rough calculations. And you can
top it up much more easily than a box-shape. A large surface area resists
topping up --- the surface tension (and air-pressure?) will force the liquid
out of the bung-hole rather than allowing you to top it up completely.

5) Assuming the increased headspace/surface area is the only negative, and
you don't wish to try to construct a cylindrical box, a triangular-shaped
(or even better, a pyramid-shaped!) top would probably make more sense than
a "tall, skinny box".

6) Another reason the barrel shape evolved, besides minimizing exposure to
air, is structural strength. By having an arc in both longitudinal and
latitudinal directions, the "water" pressure is better contained. A box will
probably begin to distort outwards from the pressure, and may come apart
when you try to move it.

7) Also note that a barrel has two or three metal straps holding it
together.

Cheap oak "cask"
 

Where in Canada did you find the used barrels?

"Charles H" > wrote in message
...
> Matt Shepherd wrote:
>
> > Problems with this plan? Anyone have similar experiences?
>
> Sounds like a lot of work :^)
>
> I'm not an expert on the properties of wood, but consider that if you
> had 100 litres of wine in there, it would weigh something like 120
> kilos(?) and that is a fair amount of weight...
>
> You'd want to make sure you get white oak to build your box as opposed
> to something like red oak. Consider drying the oak somehow, since oak
> for wine barrels is usually air dried for 1-2 years.
>
> Depending on where you are, there are usually sources around for used
> barrels which can be a good starting point. Our used barrel was
> purchased for C$160 and it was re-finished on the inside as well. I
> think it's a good comprimise considering the cost of new barrels.
>
> I have also seen smaller Portuguese barrels for sale at the local
> stores, a 50 litre was only C$60. HTH
>
> --
> charles
>
> "Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were
> forced to live on nothing but food and water for days."
> - W.C. Fields

Cheap oak "cask"
 

Amadeu wrote:

> Where in Canada did you find the used barrels?

Watson's Winemaking Supplies - Niagara-on-the-Lake
http://www.watsons.ca
^Not an employee, just a satisfied customer.

Out west I believe you can find barrels at Okanagan Barrel Works
http://www.winebarrels.com/
^No experience with these folks.

--
charles

"Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were
forced to live on nothing but food and water for days."
- W.C. Fields

Cheap oak "cask"
 

Matt, I would add oak chips until you can afford a barrel.
John Dixon
"Negodki" > wrote in message
...
> "Matt Shepherd" > wrote:
>
> > Oak casks seem really expensive, though... are there other
> > alternatives? What I'm contemplating is making a tight box out of oak
> > and a biscuit joiner for the corners, then sealing the bottom and
> > sides with parrafin, leaving the top open.
> >
> > I would then add another oak piece with a 1" hole in it for the top,
> > biscuit-joining it with warm wax spread all over it so the wax would
> > squeeze out and seal the cracks; put a bung and airlock in the hole
> > and remove it to put wine in/siphon wine out.
> >
> > All things considered, this seems a lot cheaper than buying a cask,
> > and I can't see the headspace being all that different... maybe a bit
> > more, but it's still a broad flat top no matter how you slice it (and
> > I could even make a tall, skinny oak box to minimize headspace, or go
> > all-out and have it taper).
> >
> > Problems with this plan? Anyone have similar experiences?
>
> 1) If oak costs what it does here, I don't think you will save much money
> for your efforts. A box will take more oak than a barrel of equal volume.
>
> 2) I don't know what effect the paraffin and wax might have on the wine
(or
> the wine on the paraffin/wax seal), but I don't think it will be
desirable.
>
> 3) The headspace of a box will be significantly greater than a barrel, as
> will be the exposed surface area.
>
> For simplicity's sake, I will treat a barrel as a circular cylinder,
> ignoring the longitudinal taper.
>
> A 15-gallon barrel is approximately 14" in diameter, and 22" in height.
>
> A similarly-shaped 15-gallon box would be 12.55" wide, 12.55" deep, and
22"
> height.
>
> If you fill the barrel up to 1" from the top, you will have ~ 22" x 8" =
176
> square inches of surface area exposed, and a headspace volume ~22" x 8/2 =

> 88 cubic inches. [Not having the precise formulae handy, I measured the
arc
> across a 14" circle, 1" from below the edge. That is ~8". I then treated
the
> arced area as a triangle to calculate its volume. This is slightly smaller
> than its actual volume.]
>
> If you fill the barrel up to 1/2" from the top, you will have ~22 x 5" =
110
> square inches of surface area, and 55 cubic inches of headspace.
>
> If you fill the box up to 1" from the top, you will have 12.55 x 22 = 276
> square inches of surface area exposed, and a headspace volume of 276 cubic
> inches.
>
> If you fill the box up to 1/2" from the top, you will have 12.55 x 22 =
276
> square inches of surface area exposed, and a headspace volume of 138 cubic
> inches.
>
> Since the barrel sides are actually arced in both directions, there is
even
> less surface area and headspace than in my rough calculations. And you can
> top it up much more easily than a box-shape. A large surface area resists
> topping up --- the surface tension (and air-pressure?) will force the
liquid
> out of the bung-hole rather than allowing you to top it up completely.
>
> 5) Assuming the increased headspace/surface area is the only negative, and
> you don't wish to try to construct a cylindrical box, a triangular-shaped
> (or even better, a pyramid-shaped!) top would probably make more sense
than
> a "tall, skinny box".
>
> 6) Another reason the barrel shape evolved, besides minimizing exposure to
> air, is structural strength. By having an arc in both longitudinal and
> latitudinal directions, the "water" pressure is better contained. A box
will
> probably begin to distort outwards from the pressure, and may come apart
> when you try to move it.
>
> 7) Also note that a barrel has two or three metal straps holding it
> together.
>
>

Cheap oak "cask"
 

Charles H > wrote in message >...
> Matt Shepherd wrote:
>
>
> I'm not an expert on the properties of wood, but consider that if you
> had 100 litres of wine in there, it would weigh something like 120
> kilos(?) and that is a fair amount of weight...
>
> You'd want to make sure you get white oak to build your box as opposed
> to something like red oak. Consider drying the oak somehow, since oak
> for wine barrels is usually air dried for 1-2 years.
>
> Depending on where you are, there are usually sources around for used
> barrels which can be a good starting point. Our used barrel was
> purchased for C$160 and it was re-finished on the inside as well. I
> think it's a good comprimise considering the cost of new barrels.
>
> I have also seen smaller Portuguese barrels for sale at the local
> stores, a 50 litre was only C$60. HTH

Yes, but I only make about FIVE litres of any given wine at any given
time, which is a level I'm happy with... I like having all those funky
little gallon jugs with their various labels and experiments brewing
away.

The problem I'm having is that the one-gallon cask is prohibitively
expensive (at least for me), and I'd imagine it'd be much cheaper just
to buy oak wood and make my own box.

But that might be nuts.

- Matt
www.man-man.org

Cheap oak "cask"
 

Matt Shepherd wrote:

> Yes, but I only make about FIVE litres of any given wine at any given
> time, which is a level I'm happy with... I like having all those funky
> little gallon jugs with their various labels and experiments brewing
> away.
>
> The problem I'm having is that the one-gallon cask is prohibitively
> expensive (at least for me), and I'd imagine it'd be much cheaper just
> to buy oak wood and make my own box.
>
> But that might be nuts.

I didn't realise you were making such small quantities of wine... I
didn't even know they made one gallon barrels. If you're doing such
small quantities I think oak chips/beans/staves are a much better
solution.

--
charles

"Once ... in the wilds of Afghanistan, I lost my corkscrew, and we were
forced to live on nothing but food and water for days."
- W.C. Fields

Cheap oak "cask"
 

Matt,
I have seen 5 liter casks at a shop here in Montreal..I seem to remember
them having some for maybe 30 or 40$? Would that be worthwhile for you?

Also, what is really the point of aging in something made of wood and lined
with parrafin as opposed to aging in glass?

I don;'t see how the coated wood will have any effect on the wine inside. I
have used oak chips in some beer and wine, so I know what oak can do
however.

john

>
>The problem I'm having is that the one-gallon cask is prohibitively
>expensive (at least for me), and I'd imagine it'd be much cheaper just
>to buy oak wood and make my own box.
>
>But that might be nuts.
>
>- Matt
>www.man-man.org

Cheap oak "cask"
 

"Matt Shepherd" > wrote in message
om...
> What I'm contemplating is making a tight box out of oak
> and a biscuit joiner for the corners, then sealing the bottom and
> sides with parrafin, leaving the top open.
>
> I would then add another oak piece with a 1" hole in it for the top,
> biscuit-joining it with warm wax spread all over it so the wax would
> squeeze out and seal the cracks; put a bung and airlock in the hole
> and remove it to put wine in/siphon wine out.

So the wood box would be basically sealed on the inside with paraffin?
What's the point in that? You'd be better off just using carboys or
stainless steel kegs. The idea of wood aging is that the wine extracts
desirable flavors from the oak

Tom S

Cheap oak "cask"
 

Various arguments are showing me that oak chips may indeed be the more
reasonable way to go. For the sake of clarification, though, I was
planning to seal only the seams of the box with parrafin to prevent
leakage through the cracks, not coat the entire inside of the box.

But I think the point is now pretty moot. :-)

- Matt
www.man-man.org


"Tom S" > wrote in message om>...
> "Matt Shepherd" > wrote in message
> om...

>
> So the wood box would be basically sealed on the inside with paraffin?
> What's the point in that? You'd be better off just using carboys or
> stainless steel kegs. The idea of wood aging is that the wine extracts
> desirable flavors from the oak
>
> Tom S

Cheap oak "cask"
 

(Matt Shepherd) wrote in message . com>...
> Various arguments are showing me that oak chips may indeed be the more
> reasonable way to go. For the sake of clarification, though, I was
> planning to seal only the seams of the box with parrafin to prevent
> leakage through the cracks, not coat the entire inside of the box.
>
> But I think the point is now pretty moot. :-)
>
> - Matt
> www.man-man.org
>

I think you'd be surprised with the results you can get with the
chips/staves/cubes. In my humble opinion, it is very important to note
that quality matters. I have had some wines made with beans, some with
oak dust, some with chips. I also have made wine with staves and
cubes. I think that if you get quality oak, like French white oak
cubes or staves, you will be happy with your results. It may even seem
a little expensive, but quality is worth it.

Regards,

Deadend

Cheap oak "cask"
 

(Matt Shepherd) wrote in message . com>...
> Various arguments are showing me that oak chips may indeed be the more
> reasonable way to go. For the sake of clarification, though, I was
> planning to seal only the seams of the box with parrafin to prevent
> leakage through the cracks, not coat the entire inside of the box.
>
> But I think the point is now pretty moot. :-)
>
> - Matt
> www.man-man.org
>

I think you'd be surprised with the results you can get with the
chips/staves/cubes. In my humble opinion, it is very important to note
that quality matters. I have had some wines made with beans, some with
oak dust, some with chips. I also have made wine with staves and
cubes. I think that if you get quality oak, like French white oak
cubes or staves, you will be happy with your results. It may even seem
a little expensive, but quality is worth it.

Regards,

Deadend