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Gentleman,
I am new to the board and was wondering if anyone, has any advise for
me.
I am currently in the military and deployed as usual, but will be
returning in February to a house I recently purchased in Yelm, Wa....
this spring I want to plant an experimental vineyard.
The soil at my site is Sandy Loam but I am not sure how deep before it
reaches the semipermeable sublayer that is all over the Pacific NW

I have currently ordered about 400 vines all reds, Regent, Pinot Noir
Precoce, 777, St Laurent, and Garanoir all on 3309 and 101-14 but I
can adjust m order through Jan.

I am currently wrestling with ; which clones to plant and how much,
vine spacing, methods of tilling/ riping the soil/ soil amendments

I was thinking of using a tight spacing maybe 3x6, and only tilling
the actual rows to leave the soil and covercrop between rows intact
but I am not sure how to break through the hard sublayer, I was
thinking of using an auger and just breaking up the layer under each
vine...

any thoughts?

Jason

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For someone with so many questions , how the hell can you say I don't
know what I'm talking about? You're a dope.


On Sep 25, 1:48*am, jay > wrote:
> Gentleman,
> I am new to the board and was wondering if anyone, has any advise for
> me.
> I am currently in the military and deployed as usual, but will be
> returning in February to a house I recently purchased in Yelm, Wa....
> this spring I want to plant an experimental vineyard.
> The soil at my site is Sandy Loam but I am not sure how deep before it
> reaches the semipermeable sublayer that is all over the Pacific NW
>
> I have currently ordered about 400 vines all reds, Regent, Pinot Noir
> Precoce, 777, St Laurent, and Garanoir all on 3309 and 101-14 but I
> can adjust m order through Jan.
>
> I am currently wrestling with ; which clones to plant and how much,
> vine spacing, methods of tilling/ riping the soil/ soil amendments
>
> I was thinking of using a tight spacing maybe 3x6, and only tilling
> the actual rows to leave the soil and covercrop between rows intact
> but I am not sure how to break through the hard sublayer, I was
> thinking of using an auger and just breaking up the layer under each
> vine...
>
> any thoughts?
>
> Jason


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I just read From Vines to Wines cover to cover so now I'm a leading
expert in the field of Viticulture! ROFLMAO!

On Sep 25, 10:43*am, wrote:
> For someone with so many questions , how the hell can you say I don't
> know what I'm talking about? You're a dope.
>
> On Sep 25, 1:48*am, jay > wrote:
>
> > Gentleman,
> > I am new to the board and was wondering if anyone, has any advise for
> > me.
> > I am currently in the military and deployed as usual, but will be
> > returning in February to a house I recently purchased in Yelm, Wa....
> > this spring I want to plant an experimental vineyard.
> > The soil at my site is Sandy Loam but I am not sure how deep before it
> > reaches the semipermeable sublayer that is all over the Pacific NW

>
> > I have currently ordered about 400 vines all reds, Regent, Pinot Noir
> > Precoce, 777, St Laurent, and Garanoir all on 3309 and 101-14 but I
> > can adjust m order through Jan.

>
> > I am currently wrestling with ; which clones to plant and how much,
> > vine spacing, methods of tilling/ riping the soil/ soil amendments

>
> > I was thinking of using a tight spacing maybe 3x6, and only tilling
> > the actual rows to leave the soil and covercrop between rows intact
> > but I am not sure how to break through the hard sublayer, I was
> > thinking of using an auger and just breaking up the layer under each
> > vine...

>
> > any thoughts?

>
> > Jason


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Default Advise for Vineyard Establishment

jay wrote:

> Gentleman,
> I am new to the board and was wondering if anyone, has any advise for
> me.
> I am currently in the military and deployed as usual, but will be
> returning in February to a house I recently purchased in Yelm, Wa....
> this spring I want to plant an experimental vineyard.
> The soil at my site is Sandy Loam but I am not sure how deep before it
> reaches the semipermeable sublayer that is all over the Pacific NW
>
> I have currently ordered about 400 vines all reds, Regent, Pinot Noir
> Precoce, 777, St Laurent, and Garanoir all on 3309 and 101-14 but I
> can adjust m order through Jan.
>
> I am currently wrestling with ; which clones to plant and how much,
> vine spacing, methods of tilling/ riping the soil/ soil amendments


Here are a couple thoughts:

Go to a nearby commercial vineyard and talk to the winegrower. They are
terribly busy this time of year but I think that after the harvest madness,
you should be able to find someone to talk to. Most growers are glad to
offer advice and talk winegrowing.

Contact your county agriculture extension office. They can be of invaluable
aid and help to you. They can also refer you to others who have expertise.

> I was thinking of using a tight spacing maybe 3x6, and only tilling
> the actual rows to leave the soil and covercrop between rows intact
> but I am not sure how to break through the hard sublayer, I was
> thinking of using an auger and just breaking up the layer under each
> vine...
>
> any thoughts?


400 vines is a lot for a beginner or hobbyists. For a vineyard that size,
you will probably need to drive between rows with tractor or truck etc.
Are you sure 6 feet between rows is sufficient?

I know nothing about the area you live in - except for passing through there
once last summer. There is a company called "Peaceful Vally Farm & Garden
Supply" located in California that advertises a lot about organic growing
and lists a lot of different cover crops for vineyards. The web address
is:

GrowOrganic.com

Good luck
Paul
>
> Jason


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On Sep 25, 2:47*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
wrote:
> jay wrote:
> > Gentleman,
> > I am new to the board and was wondering if anyone, has any advise for
> > me.
> > I am currently in the military and deployed as usual, but will be
> > returning in February to a house I recently purchased in Yelm, Wa....
> > this spring I want to plant an experimental vineyard.
> > The soil at my site is Sandy Loam but I am not sure how deep before it
> > reaches the semipermeable sublayer that is all over the Pacific NW

>
> > I have currently ordered about 400 vines all reds, Regent, Pinot Noir
> > Precoce, 777, St Laurent, and Garanoir all on 3309 and 101-14 but I
> > can adjust m order through Jan.

>
> > I am currently wrestling with ; which clones to plant and how much,
> > vine spacing, methods of tilling/ riping the soil/ soil amendments

>
> Here are a couple thoughts:
>
> Go to a nearby commercial vineyard and talk to the winegrower. *They are
> terribly busy this time of year but I think that after the harvest madness,
> you should be able to find someone to talk to. *Most growers are glad to
> offer advice and talk winegrowing.
>
> Contact your county agriculture extension office. *They can be of invaluable
> aid and help to you. *They can also refer you to others who have expertise.
>
> > I was thinking of using a tight spacing maybe 3x6, and only tilling
> > the actual rows to leave the soil and covercrop between rows intact
> > but I am not sure how to break through the hard sublayer, I was
> > thinking of using an auger and just breaking up the layer under each
> > vine...

>
> > any thoughts?

>
> 400 vines is a lot for a beginner or hobbyists. For a vineyard that size,
> you will probably need to drive between rows with tractor or truck etc.
> Are you sure 6 feet between rows is sufficient?
>
> I know nothing about the area you live in - except for passing through there
> once last summer. *There is a company called "Peaceful Vally Farm & Garden
> Supply" located in California that advertises a lot about organic growing
> and lists a lot of different cover crops for vineyards. *The web address
> is:
>
> GrowOrganic.com
>
> Good luck
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
> > Jason- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Thanks Paul, I will take your advise
Jay


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"For someone with so many questions , how the hell can you say I
don't
know what I'm talking about? You're a dope. "

I just read From Vines to Wines cover to cover so now I'm a leading
expert in the field of Viticulture! ROFLMAO!

"if you don't don't know what you are talking about you should keep
your mouth shut" funny I never mentioned who I was directing my
comment to...maybe I meant it for Paul....I don't know why you took
offense....funny you start calling me names and Paul offers advise and
references, maybe I expected you to give me some good advise and
references and Paul to call me names...

Paul
thanks again for the advise, "400 vines are alot for a beginer"
I want to plant enough to at least get a barrel of Regent and enough
to determine the quality of the other vines at my sight, plus I can
order three times the vines for the same price if I order 35 or more
of each variety/root stock and I have ten acres ...so space is no
issue...and I will be a stay at home dad full time starting this
winter so i will have the time for the endevor......... As far as
driving between vines the area that I will be covering will not be
very big, a few hundred feet by a few hundred feet so I am not
planning on driving between rows. Other than walking and carrying
small amounts of equipment am I missing something that I will need to
drive between rows for?
there may be a gator in my future since my truck is kinda wide.

thanks again
jay
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jay wrote:

> "For someone with so many questions , how the hell can you say I
> don't
> know what I'm talking about? You're a dope. "
>
> I just read From Vines to Wines cover to cover so now I'm a leading
> expert in the field of Viticulture! ROFLMAO!
>
> "if you don't don't know what you are talking about you should keep
> your mouth shut" funny I never mentioned who I was directing my
> comment to...maybe I meant it for Paul....I don't know why you took
> offense....funny you start calling me names and Paul offers advise and
> references, maybe I expected you to give me some good advise and
> references and Paul to call me names...
>
> Paul
> thanks again for the advise, "400 vines are alot for a beginer"
> I want to plant enough to at least get a barrel of Regent and enough
> to determine the quality of the other vines at my sight, plus I can
> order three times the vines for the same price if I order 35 or more
> of each variety/root stock and I have ten acres ...so space is no
> issue...and I will be a stay at home dad full time starting this
> winter so i will have the time for the endevor......... As far as
> driving between vines the area that I will be covering will not be
> very big, a few hundred feet by a few hundred feet so I am not
> planning on driving between rows. Other than walking and carrying
> small amounts of equipment am I missing something that I will need to
> drive between rows for?
> there may be a gator in my future since my truck is kinda wide.
>
> thanks again
> jay


One other source of information:

Check to see if there is a Growers Association in your area.

In Maryland there is the "Maryland Grape Growers Association". Virginia has
a similar organization. There is probably one near you. They are very
good and offer educational short courses and provide meetings and bring in
guest speakers who have expertise in Viticulture.

I don't know about the conditions where you live but here in the Mid
Atlantic, we have to do a LOT of spraying to control all the fungus
problems. You may need to pull a sprayer with something. I have two small
vineyards and I am able to do the spraying with a motorized back pack
sprayer but this is something for you to consider.
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Is that the way they teach you to communicate in the militarty? Say
stuff and make sure people don't know who it's directed too? Even if
it was directed at Paul, who are you to say it? You haven't even grown
one grapevine. You remind me of the Holiday Inn commercials that BobF
refered to a couple weeks ago. Anyway, my advise to you is to not grow
the vines on root stock. That will be the best advise you'll ever get.
I have talked to nurseries in Washington and they own root their vines
out there becasue of the winters you get once every 7-10 years. If you
grow on rootstock and the vine is killed to the graft you need to
restart from scratch. If you grow own rooted vines the vine will shoot
suckers from beneath the soil and your only set back 1 year instead of
4.

On Sep 26, 1:09*am, jay > wrote:
> "For someone with so many questions , how the hell can you say I
> don't
> know what I'm talking about? You're a dope. "
>
> I just read From Vines to Wines cover to cover so now I'm a leading
> expert in the field of Viticulture! ROFLMAO!
>
> "if you don't don't know what you are talking about you should keep
> your mouth shut" funny I never mentioned who I was directing my
> comment to...maybe I meant it for Paul....I don't know why you took
> offense....funny you start calling me names and Paul offers advise and
> references, maybe I expected you to give me some good advise and
> references and Paul to call me names...
>
> Paul
> *thanks again for the advise, *"400 vines are alot for a beginer"
> *I want to plant enough to at least get a barrel of Regent and enough
> to determine the quality of the other vines at my sight, plus I can
> order three times the vines for the same price if I order 35 or more
> of each variety/root stock and I have ten acres ...so space is no
> issue...and I will be a stay at home dad full time starting this
> winter so i will have the time for the endevor......... As far as
> driving between vines the area that I will be covering will not be
> very big, a few hundred feet by a few hundred feet so I am not
> planning on driving between rows. Other than walking and carrying
> small *amounts of equipment am I missing something that I will need to
> drive between rows for?
> there may be a gator in my future since my truck is kinda wide.
>
> thanks again
> jay


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wrote:

> Is that the way they teach you to communicate in the militarty? Say
> stuff and make sure people don't know who it's directed too?


You got something against the Military? I spent five years in the Army and
two tours in Vietnam. Perhaps you missed out on a lot of growing up if you
never served.

> Even if
> it was directed at Paul, who are you to say it? You haven't even grown
> one grapevine.


And YOU. Where do you live? What varieties do you grow? How big is your
vineyard? I have REPEATEDLY asked you these basic questions and you never
answer and you claim to have credibility???


> You remind me of the Holiday Inn commercials that BobF
> refered to a couple weeks ago. Anyway, my advise to you is to not grow
> the vines on root stock. That will be the best advise you'll ever get.
> I have talked to nurseries in Washington and they own root their vines
> out there becasue of the winters you get once every 7-10 years. If you
> grow on rootstock and the vine is killed to the graft you need to
> restart from scratch. If you grow own rooted vines the vine will shoot
> suckers from beneath the soil and your only set back 1 year instead of
> 4.
>
> On Sep 26, 1:09Â*am, jay > wrote:


DAH, hey doublesb, have you even looked to see what part of Washington he
lives in? I guess you had not thought of that or considered the many
climate variations in the State of Washington, have you. Vinifera are
usually grown on rootstock, there are reasons for this but I don't think
you would understand.



>> "For someone with so many questions , how the hell can you say I
>> don't
>> know what I'm talking about? You're a dope. "
>>
>> I just read From Vines to Wines cover to cover so now I'm a leading
>> expert in the field of Viticulture! ROFLMAO!
>>
>> "if you don't don't know what you are talking about you should keep
>> your mouth shut" funny I never mentioned who I was directing my
>> comment to...maybe I meant it for Paul....I don't know why you took
>> offense....funny you start calling me names and Paul offers advise and
>> references, maybe I expected you to give me some good advise and
>> references and Paul to call me names...
>>
>> Paul
>> thanks again for the advise, Â*"400 vines are alot for a beginer"
>> I want to plant enough to at least get a barrel of Regent and enough
>> to determine the quality of the other vines at my sight, plus I can
>> order three times the vines for the same price if I order 35 or more
>> of each variety/root stock and I have ten acres ...so space is no
>> issue...and I will be a stay at home dad full time starting this
>> winter so i will have the time for the endevor......... As far as
>> driving between vines the area that I will be covering will not be
>> very big, a few hundred feet by a few hundred feet so I am not
>> planning on driving between rows. Other than walking and carrying
>> small Â*amounts of equipment am I missing something that I will need to
>> drive between rows for?
>> there may be a gator in my future since my truck is kinda wide.
>>
>> thanks again
>> jay


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Paul,
thanks again, and thanks for serving back in the day, what was your
MOS? if you don't mind me asking I'm an 18A ...keeps me busy.

Yeah we have serious downy mildew issues in the Puget Sound AVA but
people that grow Regent don't have to spray it, but the Pinot family
grapes I plan on putting in is another story. According to growers
here Regent has been extremely disease resistant, rot and mildew
resistant and a good producer. One great source of help has been
Hollywood Hills Vineyard, they make the only commercial Regent in the
U.S. so if anyhome growers are interested in that grape you try
some... they are super busy right now so I have am leaving them
alone... There is a Puget Sound Growers association which I have
investigated a bit but haven't contacted.

I think I might try a backpack sprayer in a few years if I can't walk
a few hundred meters with it by then I don't need to be growing
grapes.

do you have any suggestions for breaking up the sublayers of the soil
down deep enough without getting a tractor to rip it?

thanks again
jay


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oh yeah....Thomas Volney Munson good guy,
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I don't care where he lives. You're the big "do what the french do"
guy. The French didn't grow vines on rootstock until they imported our
phyloxerra. If you get own rooted vines and the is no phyloxera on the
vines where is the phyloxera going to come from? I have own rooted
vines from a nursery in Washington growing in my vineyard and they're
doing great. NO PHYLOXERA.Phyloxera is a scam. It keep nurseries in
business. I have personally seen thousands of vines killed by cold and
have NEVER witnessed a vine die by phyloxera but all people
concentrate on is phyloxera and plant grafted vines. If you are
careful and don't have trucks delivering equiptment that have visited
phyloxera infested vineyards, it shouldn't be a problem. Have you ever
seen a vine die of phyloxera? How about cold damage? Tell the truth
now Paul. Which way is a vine likely to die?


On Sep 26, 10:26*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
wrote:
> wrote:
> > Is that the way they teach you to communicate in the militarty? Say
> > stuff and make sure people don't know who it's directed too?

>
> You got something against the Military? *I spent five years in the Army and
> two tours in Vietnam. *Perhaps you missed out on a lot of growing up if you
> never served. *
>
> > Even if
> > it was directed at Paul, who are you to say it? You haven't even grown
> > one grapevine.

>
> And YOU. *Where do you live? *What varieties do you grow? *How big is your
> vineyard? *I have REPEATEDLY asked you these basic questions and you never
> answer and you claim to have credibility???
>
> > You remind me of the Holiday Inn commercials that BobF
> > refered to a couple weeks ago. Anyway, my advise to you is to not grow
> > the vines on root stock. That will be the best advise you'll ever get.
> > I have talked to nurseries in Washington and they own root their vines
> > out there becasue of the winters you get once every 7-10 years. If you
> > grow on rootstock and the vine is killed to the graft you need to
> > restart from scratch. If you grow own rooted vines the vine will shoot
> > suckers from beneath the soil and your only set back 1 year instead of
> > 4.

>
> > On Sep 26, 1:09*am, jay > wrote:

>
> DAH, hey doublesb, have you even looked to see what part of Washington he
> lives in? *I guess you had not thought of that or considered the many
> climate variations in the State of Washington, have you. *Vinifera are
> usually grown on rootstock, there are reasons for this but I don't think
> you would understand.
>
> >> "For someone with so many questions , how the hell can you say I
> >> don't
> >> know what I'm talking about? You're a dope. "

>
> >> I just read From Vines to Wines cover to cover so now I'm a leading
> >> expert in the field of Viticulture! ROFLMAO!

>
> >> "if you don't don't know what you are talking about you should keep
> >> your mouth shut" funny I never mentioned who I was directing my
> >> comment to...maybe I meant it for Paul....I don't know why you took
> >> offense....funny you start calling me names and Paul offers advise and
> >> references, maybe I expected you to give me some good advise and
> >> references and Paul to call me names...

>
> >> Paul
> >> thanks again for the advise, *"400 vines are alot for a beginer"
> >> I want to plant enough to at least get a barrel of Regent and enough
> >> to determine the quality of the other vines at my sight, plus I can
> >> order three times the vines for the same price if I order 35 or more
> >> of each variety/root stock and I have ten acres ...so space is no
> >> issue...and I will be a stay at home dad full time starting this
> >> winter so i will have the time for the endevor......... As far as
> >> driving between vines the area that I will be covering will not be
> >> very big, a few hundred feet by a few hundred feet so I am not
> >> planning on driving between rows. Other than walking and carrying
> >> small *amounts of equipment am I missing something that I will need to
> >> drive between rows for?
> >> there may be a gator in my future since my truck is kinda wide.

>
> >> thanks again
> >> jay


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wrote:

> I don't care where he lives.


Obviously, you believe your way fits every area of the world.
You obviously do not have the ambition to look at a map of where Jay lives.
Here is a hint. He does not live in the desert region of Washington State.

> You're the big "do what the french do"


Hardly, I believe where you live determines which varieties one grows and
all the other parameters involved in viticulture. YOU are of the
opinion "Do what doublsb does"

> guy. The French didn't grow vines on rootstock until they imported our
> phyloxerra. If you get own rooted vines and the is no phyloxera on the
> vines where is the phyloxera going to come from?
> I have own rooted
> vines from a nursery in Washington growing in my vineyard and they're
> doing great. NO PHYLOXERA.Phyloxera is a scam.


You won't even tell us where you live, what varieties you are growing and
how many vines you have. For all we know, you are growing native American
species.

> It keep nurseries in
> business. I have personally seen thousands of vines killed by cold and
> have NEVER witnessed a vine die by phyloxera but all people
> concentrate on is phyloxera and plant grafted vines.


You obviously do not understand rootstock selection and why it makes a
difference.

> If you are
> careful and don't have trucks delivering equiptment that have visited
> phyloxera infested vineyards, it shouldn't be a problem. Have you ever
> seen a vine die of phyloxera? How about cold damage? Tell the truth
> now Paul. Which way is a vine likely to die?


From ignorance from people who might be foolish enough to follow your
advice.

>
>
> On Sep 26, 10:26Â*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > Is that the way they teach you to communicate in the militarty? Say
>> > stuff and make sure people don't know who it's directed too?

>>
>> You got something against the Military? Â*I spent five years in the Army
>> and two tours in Vietnam. Â*Perhaps you missed out on a lot of growing up
>> if you never served.
>>
>> > Even if
>> > it was directed at Paul, who are you to say it? You haven't even grown
>> > one grapevine.

>>
>> And YOU. Â*Where do you live? Â*What varieties do you grow? Â*How big is
>> your vineyard? Â*I have REPEATEDLY asked you these basic questions and you
>> never answer and you claim to have credibility???
>>
>> > You remind me of the Holiday Inn commercials that BobF
>> > refered to a couple weeks ago. Anyway, my advise to you is to not grow
>> > the vines on root stock. That will be the best advise you'll ever get.
>> > I have talked to nurseries in Washington and they own root their vines
>> > out there becasue of the winters you get once every 7-10 years. If you
>> > grow on rootstock and the vine is killed to the graft you need to
>> > restart from scratch. If you grow own rooted vines the vine will shoot
>> > suckers from beneath the soil and your only set back 1 year instead of
>> > 4.

>>
>> > On Sep 26, 1:09Â*am, jay > wrote:

>>
>> DAH, hey doublesb, have you even looked to see what part of Washington he
>> lives in? Â*I guess you had not thought of that or considered the many
>> climate variations in the State of Washington, have you. Â*Vinifera are
>> usually grown on rootstock, there are reasons for this but I don't think
>> you would understand.
>>
>> >> "For someone with so many questions , how the hell can you say I
>> >> don't
>> >> know what I'm talking about? You're a dope. "

>>
>> >> I just read From Vines to Wines cover to cover so now I'm a leading
>> >> expert in the field of Viticulture! ROFLMAO!

>>
>> >> "if you don't don't know what you are talking about you should keep
>> >> your mouth shut" funny I never mentioned who I was directing my
>> >> comment to...maybe I meant it for Paul....I don't know why you took
>> >> offense....funny you start calling me names and Paul offers advise and
>> >> references, maybe I expected you to give me some good advise and
>> >> references and Paul to call me names...

>>
>> >> Paul
>> >> thanks again for the advise, Â*"400 vines are alot for a beginer"
>> >> I want to plant enough to at least get a barrel of Regent and enough
>> >> to determine the quality of the other vines at my sight, plus I can
>> >> order three times the vines for the same price if I order 35 or more
>> >> of each variety/root stock and I have ten acres ...so space is no
>> >> issue...and I will be a stay at home dad full time starting this
>> >> winter so i will have the time for the endevor......... As far as
>> >> driving between vines the area that I will be covering will not be
>> >> very big, a few hundred feet by a few hundred feet so I am not
>> >> planning on driving between rows. Other than walking and carrying
>> >> small Â*amounts of equipment am I missing something that I will need to
>> >> drive between rows for?
>> >> there may be a gator in my future since my truck is kinda wide.

>>
>> >> thanks again
>> >> jay


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I'm not sure weather to pick 3309 or 101-14 so I am picking a
mixture, but I am pretty sure its going to be on of those two,
is there a method to propogate new rootstock for new grafts from
grafted vines that are already established ?

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for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget Sound,
what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or rains
can damage your crop. The reason I am going to use rootstock is that
WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens the clones I have chosen 1-2
weeks earlier by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also show more
complex flavor, (Moultan et al )
on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go wine
tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel
driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my self rooted
vinefera is simple not a course of action I will take period.


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Check this out.
http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?...=1620&issue=59

Notice the statement:
"One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures rarely
drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic winter freezes
that devastate eastern Washington State vineyards, on average, every
seven to ten years.

Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would think a
climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap right after a
warm spell. Something like this one.

http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...20version3.pdf

Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you do. When
all the commercial growers are crying in their milk you could be
laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery loves company" crowd.
Personally, My vines are still growing and there is a vineyard not far
from here that grew chardonnay on C3309. Well, the chardonay is all
dead.





On Sep 26, 11:19*pm, jay > wrote:
> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget Sound,
> what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
> harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or rains
> can damage your crop. The reason I am going to use rootstock is that
> WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens the clones I have chosen 1-2
> weeks earlier by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also show more
> complex flavor, (Moultan et al )
> on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go wine
> tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel
> driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my self rooted
> vinefera is simple not a course of action I will take period.


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"what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or rains
can damage your crop."

How does an early frost "damge" your vines? BTW, I've never believed
in the "early frost" concept. What early frost means is your growing
the wrong vines for your area. You should be growing ones that ripen
in a shorter time frame. I'm sure "Paul the Regurgitator" would
disagree.


On Sep 26, 11:19*pm, jay > wrote:
> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget Sound,
> what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
> harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or rains
> can damage your crop. The reason I am going to use rootstock is that
> WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens the clones I have chosen 1-2
> weeks earlier by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also show more
> complex flavor, (Moultan et al )
> on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go wine
> tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel
> driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my self rooted
> vinefera is simple not a course of action I will take period.


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wrote:

> "what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
> harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or rains
> can damage your crop."
>
> How does an early frost "damge" your vines? BTW, I've never believed
> in the "early frost" concept. What early frost means is your growing
> the wrong vines for your area. You should be growing ones that ripen
> in a shorter time frame. I'm sure "Paul the Regurgitator" would
> disagree.


The best wine is made from grapes that just fit into the growing season for
that particular variety.


>
>
> On Sep 26, 11:19Â*pm, jay > wrote:
>> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
>> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget Sound,
>> what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
>> harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or rains
>> can damage your crop. The reason I am going to use rootstock is that
>> WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens the clones I have chosen 1-2
>> weeks earlier by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also show more
>> complex flavor, (Moultan et al )
>> on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go wine
>> tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel
>> driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my self rooted
>> vinefera is simple not a course of action I will take period.


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wrote:

> Check this out.
>
http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?...=1620&issue=59
>
> Notice the statement:
> "One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures rarely
> drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic winter freezes
> that devastate eastern Washington State vineyards, on average, every
> seven to ten years.
>
> Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would think a
> climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap right after a
> warm spell. Something like this one.
>
>

http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...20version3.pdf
>
> Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you do. When
> all the commercial growers are crying in their milk you could be
> laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery loves company" crowd.
> Personally, My vines are still growing and there is a vineyard not far
> from here that grew chardonnay on C3309. Well, the chardonay is all
> dead.


Where is this vineyard and how far is it from you?
Where do you live? What varieties are you growing? How many vines do you
have?



>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 26, 11:19Â*pm, jay > wrote:
>> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
>> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget Sound,
>> what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
>> harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or rains
>> can damage your crop. The reason I am going to use rootstock is that
>> WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens the clones I have chosen 1-2
>> weeks earlier by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also show more
>> complex flavor, (Moultan et al )
>> on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go wine
>> tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel
>> driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my self rooted
>> vinefera is simple not a course of action I will take period.


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Don't worry Paul, I have a feeling Maryland will be shocked after the
coming winter. SOmetimes it doesn't matter where you live.

On Sep 27, 10:26*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
wrote:
> wrote:
> > Check this out.
> >http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?...=1620&issue=59

>
> > Notice the statement:
> > *"One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures rarely
> > drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic winter freezes
> > that devastate eastern Washington State vineyards, on average, every
> > seven to ten years.

>
> > Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would think a
> > climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap right after a
> > warm spell. Something like this one.

>
> http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...%20geneva%2003...
>
>
>
> > Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you do. When
> > all the commercial growers are crying in their milk you could be
> > laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery loves company" crowd.
> > Personally, My vines are still growing and there is a vineyard not far
> > from here that grew chardonnay on C3309. Well, the chardonay is all
> > dead.

>
> Where is this vineyard and how far is it from you?
> Where do you live? *What varieties are you growing? *How many vines do you
> have?
>
>
>
> > On Sep 26, 11:19*pm, jay > wrote:
> >> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
> >> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget Sound,
> >> what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
> >> harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or rains
> >> can damage your crop. The reason I am going to use rootstock is that
> >> WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens the clones I have chosen 1-2
> >> weeks earlier by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also show more
> >> complex flavor, (Moultan et al )
> >> on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go wine
> >> tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel
> >> driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my self rooted
> >> vinefera is simple not a course of action I will take period.




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wrote:

> Don't worry Paul, I have a feeling Maryland will be shocked after the
> coming winter. SOmetimes it doesn't matter where you live.


You make no sense.
Are you taking your meds?


>
> On Sep 27, 10:26Â*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > Check this out.
>> >
http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?...=1620&issue=59
>>
>> > Notice the statement:
>> > "One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures rarely
>> > drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic winter freezes
>> > that devastate eastern Washington State vineyards, on average, every
>> > seven to ten years.

>>
>> > Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would think a
>> > climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap right after a
>> > warm spell. Something like this one.

>>
>> http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...%20geneva%2003...
>>
>>
>>
>> > Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you do. When
>> > all the commercial growers are crying in their milk you could be
>> > laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery loves company" crowd.
>> > Personally, My vines are still growing and there is a vineyard not far
>> > from here that grew chardonnay on C3309. Well, the chardonay is all
>> > dead.

>>
>> Where is this vineyard and how far is it from you?
>> Where do you live? Â*What varieties are you growing? Â*How many vines do
>> you have?
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 26, 11:19Â*pm, jay > wrote:
>> >> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
>> >> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget Sound,
>> >> what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
>> >> harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or rains
>> >> can damage your crop. The reason I am going to use rootstock is that
>> >> WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens the clones I have chosen 1-2
>> >> weeks earlier by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also show more
>> >> complex flavor, (Moultan et al )
>> >> on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go wine
>> >> tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel
>> >> driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my self rooted
>> >> vinefera is simple not a course of action I will take period.


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I make total sense. What I say is independent of what I grow, how many
of them I grow and where I live. You on the other hand have so many
conditions, your flow chart for growing grapes points in all different
directions with no end to the logic. I am endorsing OWN ROOTED VINES.
They are simple and most of the times have just as much resistance to
phyloxera as root stock. In fact, according to the article below root
stock is no guarantee either. What I am also saying is that a vine
will die of cold damage before it ever will die from phyloxera in a
cold climate like Washington.

http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...ootstocks.html


Sep 27, 7:45*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > Don't worry Paul, I have a feeling Maryland will be shocked after the
> > coming winter. SOmetimes it doesn't matter where you live.

>
> You make no sense.
> Are you taking your meds?
>
>
>
> > On Sep 27, 10:26*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > Check this out.
> >> >http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?...=1620&issue=59

>
> >> > Notice the statement:
> >> > "One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures rarely
> >> > drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic winter freezes
> >> > that devastate eastern Washington State vineyards, on average, every
> >> > seven to ten years.

>
> >> > Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would think a
> >> > climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap right after a
> >> > warm spell. Something like this one.

>
> >>http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...%20geneva%2003....

>
> >> > Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you do. When
> >> > all the commercial growers are crying in their milk you could be
> >> > laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery loves company" crowd.
> >> > Personally, My vines are still growing and there is a vineyard not far
> >> > from here that grew chardonnay on C3309. Well, the chardonay is all
> >> > dead.

>
> >> Where is this vineyard and how far is it from you?
> >> Where do you live? *What varieties are you growing? *How many vines do
> >> you have?

>
> >> > On Sep 26, 11:19*pm, jay > wrote:
> >> >> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
> >> >> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget Sound,
> >> >> what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
> >> >> harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or rains
> >> >> can damage your crop. The reason I am going to use rootstock is that
> >> >> WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens the clones I have chosen 1-2
> >> >> weeks earlier by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also show more
> >> >> complex flavor, (Moultan et al )
> >> >> on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go wine
> >> >> tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel
> >> >> driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my self rooted
> >> >> vinefera is simple not a course of action I will take period.


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wrote:

> I make total sense. What I say is independent of what I grow, how many
> of them I grow and where I live.


This is TOTAL nonesense and anyone following this thread realizes that you
are NOT contributing ANYTHING useful.

IF you are happy doing what you are doing, that is fine;

BUT:

to state to OTHERS that professional wine growers are not living in the real
world, that nurseries are motivated by money only, that the French do not
know anything about grape growing, that self rooted is the only way to go,
that fermenting in NON FDA APPROVED containers is just fine, that mulch is
the way to go for everyone, and that you alone have the secret to success
and all others are motived by money is pure nonesense.

PLEASE, continue to do what makes you happy B U T realize that you are
expressing an OPINION based on YOUR experience in a LIMITED environment in
what you perceive as being the WHOLE world of viticulture.

On the other hand I encourage the following:

I encourage all who may read this thread and are interested in growing wine
grapes to do the following:

Research the availabel literature

Contact the Agriculture Extension agent in the area they live

Contact PROFESSIONAL growers in their area to obtain information as to
varieties and how to grow these varieties.

Join a growers association in their area, especially those that have
educational seminars.

If you wish to engage in arguementation, please spend your time in other
groups who relish this sort of thing, ie, computer languages or programming
or religion,etc.







> You on the other hand have so many
> conditions, your flow chart for growing grapes points in all different
> directions with no end to the logic. I am endorsing OWN ROOTED VINES.
> They are simple and most of the times have just as much resistance to
> phyloxera as root stock. In fact, according to the article below root
> stock is no guarantee either. What I am also saying is that a vine
> will die of cold damage before it ever will die from phyloxera in a
> cold climate like Washington.
>
>

http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...ootstocks.html
>
>
> Sep 27, 7:45Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > Don't worry Paul, I have a feeling Maryland will be shocked after the
>> > coming winter. SOmetimes it doesn't matter where you live.

>>
>> You make no sense.
>> Are you taking your meds?
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 27, 10:26Â*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> > wrote:
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Check this out.
>> >> >http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?...=1620&issue=59

>>
>> >> > Notice the statement:
>> >> > "One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures rarely
>> >> > drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic winter
>> >> > freezes that devastate eastern Washington State vineyards, on
>> >> > average, every seven to ten years.

>>
>> >> > Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would think a
>> >> > climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap right after a
>> >> > warm spell. Something like this one.

>>
>>
>>http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...%20geneva%2003...
>>
>> >> > Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you do. When
>> >> > all the commercial growers are crying in their milk you could be
>> >> > laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery loves company" crowd.
>> >> > Personally, My vines are still growing and there is a vineyard not
>> >> > far from here that grew chardonnay on C3309. Well, the chardonay is
>> >> > all dead.

>>
>> >> Where is this vineyard and how far is it from you?
>> >> Where do you live? Â*What varieties are you growing? Â*How many vines do
>> >> you have?

>>
>> >> > On Sep 26, 11:19Â*pm, jay > wrote:
>> >> >> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
>> >> >> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget Sound,
>> >> >> what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
>> >> >> harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or
>> >> >> rains can damage your crop. The reason I am going to use rootstock
>> >> >> is that WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens the clones I have
>> >> >> chosen 1-2 weeks earlier by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also
>> >> >> show more complex flavor, (Moultan et al )
>> >> >> on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go wine
>> >> >> tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel
>> >> >> driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my self rooted
>> >> >> vinefera is simple not a course of action I will take period.


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On Sep 27, 7:37*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
wrote:
> wrote:
> > I make total sense. What I say is independent of what I grow, how many
> > of them I grow and where I live.

>
> This is TOTAL nonesense and anyone following this thread realizes that you
> are NOT contributing ANYTHING useful. *
>
> IF you are happy doing what you are doing, that is fine;
>
> BUT:
>
> to state to OTHERS that professional wine growers are not living in the real
> world, that nurseries are motivated by money only, that the French do not
> know anything about grape growing, that self rooted is the only way to go,
> that fermenting in NON FDA APPROVED containers is just fine, that mulch is
> the way to go for everyone, and that you alone have the secret to success
> and all others are motived by money is pure nonesense.
>
> PLEASE, continue to do what makes you happy * B U T * realize that you are
> expressing an OPINION based on YOUR experience in a LIMITED environment in
> what you perceive as being the WHOLE world of viticulture.
>
> On the other hand I encourage the following:
>
> I encourage all who may read this thread and are interested in growing wine
> grapes to do the following:
>
> Research the availabel literature
>
> Contact the Agriculture Extension agent in the area they live
>
> Contact PROFESSIONAL growers in their area to obtain information as to
> varieties and how to grow these varieties.
>
> Join a growers association in their area, especially those that have
> educational seminars.
>
> If you wish to engage in arguementation, please spend your time in other
> groups who relish this sort of thing, ie, computer languages or programming
> or religion,etc.
>
> > You on the other hand have so many
> > conditions, your flow chart for growing grapes points in all different
> > directions with no end to the logic. I am endorsing OWN ROOTED VINES.
> > They are simple and most of the times have just as much resistance to
> > phyloxera as root stock. In fact, according to the article below root
> > stock is no guarantee either. What I am also saying is that a vine
> > will die of cold damage before it ever will die from phyloxera in a
> > cold climate like Washington.

>
> http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...cks/nyrootstoc...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Sep 27, 7:45*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > Don't worry Paul, I have a feeling Maryland will be shocked after the
> >> > coming winter. SOmetimes it doesn't matter where you live.

>
> >> You make no sense.
> >> Are you taking your meds?

>
> >> > On Sep 27, 10:26*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Check this out.
> >> >> >http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?...=1620&issue=59

>
> >> >> > Notice the statement:
> >> >> > "One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures rarely
> >> >> > drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic winter
> >> >> > freezes that devastate eastern Washington State vineyards, on
> >> >> > average, every seven to ten years.

>
> >> >> > Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would think a
> >> >> > climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap right after a
> >> >> > warm spell. Something like this one.

>
> >>http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...%20geneva%2003....

>
> >> >> > Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you do. When
> >> >> > all the commercial growers are crying in their milk you could be
> >> >> > laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery loves company" crowd.
> >> >> > Personally, My vines are still growing and there is a vineyard not
> >> >> > far from here that grew chardonnay on C3309. Well, the chardonay is
> >> >> > all dead.

>
> >> >> Where is this vineyard and how far is it from you?
> >> >> Where do you live? *What varieties are you growing? *How many vines do
> >> >> you have?

>
> >> >> > On Sep 26, 11:19*pm, jay > wrote:
> >> >> >> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
> >> >> >> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget Sound,
> >> >> >> what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
> >> >> >> harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or
> >> >> >> rains can damage your crop. The reason I am going to use rootstock
> >> >> >> is that WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens the clones I have
> >> >> >> chosen 1-2 weeks earlier by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also
> >> >> >> show more complex flavor, (Moultan et al )
> >> >> >> on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go wine
> >> >> >> tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel
> >> >> >> driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my self rooted
> >> >> >> vinefera is simple not a course of action I will take period.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -


Thank You Paul for your good advise,
I actually started the WSU viticulture online courses today,
partially from your recomendations...though so far (two lectures) they
are more oriented toward the eastern WA growers.
The main reason (as I stated before) I want to use rootstocks is
actually to control vigor and in turn ripen friut earlier, this is
according to research done at the WSU Mt Vernon research facility
where they ripen Pinot Noir with around 1600 growing degrees .....by
the way the Puget Sound is not cold it is an extremely mild climate
the temp drops below freezing maybe a couple of times a year and the
ground never freezes. typical winter weather is 40F and raining if it
does freeze often everything is covered in ice which keeps plants from
damage....
jay
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Default Advise for Vineyard Establishment

Jay write:
".though so far (two lectures) they are more oriented toward the
eastern WA growers. "

IOW, they agree with doublesb.

On Sep 28, 3:43*am, jay > wrote:
> On Sep 27, 7:37*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > > I make total sense. What I say is independent of what I grow, how many
> > > of them I grow and where I live.

>
> > This is TOTAL nonesense and anyone following this thread realizes that you
> > are NOT contributing ANYTHING useful. *

>
> > IF you are happy doing what you are doing, that is fine;

>
> > BUT:

>
> > to state to OTHERS that professional wine growers are not living in the real
> > world, that nurseries are motivated by money only, that the French do not
> > know anything about grape growing, that self rooted is the only way to go,
> > that fermenting in NON FDA APPROVED containers is just fine, that mulch is
> > the way to go for everyone, and that you alone have the secret to success
> > and all others are motived by money is pure nonesense.

>
> > PLEASE, continue to do what makes you happy * B U T * realize that you are
> > expressing an OPINION based on YOUR experience in a LIMITED environment in
> > what you perceive as being the WHOLE world of viticulture.

>
> > On the other hand I encourage the following:

>
> > I encourage all who may read this thread and are interested in growing wine
> > grapes to do the following:

>
> > Research the availabel literature

>
> > Contact the Agriculture Extension agent in the area they live

>
> > Contact PROFESSIONAL growers in their area to obtain information as to
> > varieties and how to grow these varieties.

>
> > Join a growers association in their area, especially those that have
> > educational seminars.

>
> > If you wish to engage in arguementation, please spend your time in other
> > groups who relish this sort of thing, ie, computer languages or programming
> > or religion,etc.

>
> > > You on the other hand have so many
> > > conditions, your flow chart for growing grapes points in all different
> > > directions with no end to the logic. I am endorsing OWN ROOTED VINES.
> > > They are simple and most of the times have just as much resistance to
> > > phyloxera as root stock. In fact, according to the article below root
> > > stock is no guarantee either. What I am also saying is that a vine
> > > will die of cold damage before it ever will die from phyloxera in a
> > > cold climate like Washington.

>
> >http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...cks/nyrootstoc...

>
> > > Sep 27, 7:45*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > Don't worry Paul, I have a feeling Maryland will be shocked after the
> > >> > coming winter. SOmetimes it doesn't matter where you live.

>
> > >> You make no sense.
> > >> Are you taking your meds?

>
> > >> > On Sep 27, 10:26*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >> wrote:
> > >> >> > Check this out.
> > >> >> >http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?...=1620&issue=59

>
> > >> >> > Notice the statement:
> > >> >> > "One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures rarely
> > >> >> > drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic winter
> > >> >> > freezes that devastate eastern Washington State vineyards, on
> > >> >> > average, every seven to ten years.

>
> > >> >> > Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would think a
> > >> >> > climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap right after a
> > >> >> > warm spell. Something like this one.

>
> > >>http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...%20geneva%2003....

>
> > >> >> > Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you do. When
> > >> >> > all the commercial growers are crying in their milk you could be
> > >> >> > laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery loves company" crowd.
> > >> >> > Personally, My vines are still growing and there is a vineyard not
> > >> >> > far from here that grew chardonnay on C3309. Well, the chardonay is
> > >> >> > all dead.

>
> > >> >> Where is this vineyard and how far is it from you?
> > >> >> Where do you live? *What varieties are you growing? *How many vines do
> > >> >> you have?

>
> > >> >> > On Sep 26, 11:19*pm, jay > wrote:
> > >> >> >> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
> > >> >> >> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget Sound,
> > >> >> >> what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
> > >> >> >> harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or
> > >> >> >> rains can damage your crop. The reason I am going to use rootstock
> > >> >> >> is that WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens the clones I have
> > >> >> >> chosen 1-2 weeks earlier by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also
> > >> >> >> show more complex flavor, (Moultan et al )
> > >> >> >> on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go wine
> > >> >> >> tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel
> > >> >> >> driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my self rooted
> > >> >> >> vinefera is simple not a course of action I will take period.- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> Thank You Paul for your good advise,
> *I actually started the WSU viticulture online courses today,
> partially from your recomendations...though so far (two lectures) they
> are more oriented toward the eastern WA growers.
> The main reason (as I stated before) *I want to use rootstocks is
> actually to control vigor and in turn ripen friut earlier, this is
> according to research done at the WSU Mt Vernon research facility
> where they ripen Pinot Noir with around 1600 growing degrees .....by
> the way the Puget Sound is not cold it is an extremely mild climate
> the temp drops below freezing maybe a couple of times a year and the
> ground never freezes. typical winter weather is 40F and raining if it
> does freeze often everything is covered in ice which keeps plants from
> damage....
> jay




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Posts: 287
Default Advise for Vineyard Establishment

Just a word of advice to Jay. Jay, I was once like you. Worrying about
yearly vintages more than anything else. I had visions of grandeur
harvesting world class grapes and making world class wine. Well, what
I'm recommending to you is the result of over 10 years of experience
and research. I'm not trying to screw you, I'm trying to help you.
Paul is trying to help you too but he seems to have a myopic view of
viticulture. I sense he has very little other experience with plants
and logic. That is just my opinion. You only need to read the links I
posted about rootstock and "The Perfect Freeze" to see how the worlds
leading authorities on viticulture contridict themselves. In one
article Bob Pool wonders about the future of the FInger Lake's
vinifera because they were killed as a result of being grown on root
stock and in the next article recommends rootstock. I have seen first
hand the trouble and inflexibility of rootstock. Obviously you will do
what you want but you can't say you didn't have other points of view
bsides the party line that Paul will provide. As far as loosening
your soil, the best way to do it is get a backhoe and dig up the dirt
down to a level of 3 feet deep for every row you plan to grow. That
was advised to me and seemed like the right thing to do. I didn't do
it because of expense. You could also plant your vines with a posthole
digger and make sure you go down 3 feet with the hole. If you really
do have sandy loam there shouldn't be a problem as far as compaction
and also read the info on the web as far as the probability you'll
have phyloxera problems with sandy soil.



n Sep 28, 3:43*am, jay > wrote:
> On Sep 27, 7:37*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > > I make total sense. What I say is independent of what I grow, how many
> > > of them I grow and where I live.

>
> > This is TOTAL nonesense and anyone following this thread realizes that you
> > are NOT contributing ANYTHING useful. *

>
> > IF you are happy doing what you are doing, that is fine;

>
> > BUT:

>
> > to state to OTHERS that professional wine growers are not living in the real
> > world, that nurseries are motivated by money only, that the French do not
> > know anything about grape growing, that self rooted is the only way to go,
> > that fermenting in NON FDA APPROVED containers is just fine, that mulch is
> > the way to go for everyone, and that you alone have the secret to success
> > and all others are motived by money is pure nonesense.

>
> > PLEASE, continue to do what makes you happy * B U T * realize that you are
> > expressing an OPINION based on YOUR experience in a LIMITED environment in
> > what you perceive as being the WHOLE world of viticulture.

>
> > On the other hand I encourage the following:

>
> > I encourage all who may read this thread and are interested in growing wine
> > grapes to do the following:

>
> > Research the availabel literature

>
> > Contact the Agriculture Extension agent in the area they live

>
> > Contact PROFESSIONAL growers in their area to obtain information as to
> > varieties and how to grow these varieties.

>
> > Join a growers association in their area, especially those that have
> > educational seminars.

>
> > If you wish to engage in arguementation, please spend your time in other
> > groups who relish this sort of thing, ie, computer languages or programming
> > or religion,etc.

>
> > > You on the other hand have so many
> > > conditions, your flow chart for growing grapes points in all different
> > > directions with no end to the logic. I am endorsing OWN ROOTED VINES.
> > > They are simple and most of the times have just as much resistance to
> > > phyloxera as root stock. In fact, according to the article below root
> > > stock is no guarantee either. What I am also saying is that a vine
> > > will die of cold damage before it ever will die from phyloxera in a
> > > cold climate like Washington.

>
> >http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...cks/nyrootstoc...

>
> > > Sep 27, 7:45*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > Don't worry Paul, I have a feeling Maryland will be shocked after the
> > >> > coming winter. SOmetimes it doesn't matter where you live.

>
> > >> You make no sense.
> > >> Are you taking your meds?

>
> > >> > On Sep 27, 10:26*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >> wrote:
> > >> >> > Check this out.
> > >> >> >http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?...=1620&issue=59

>
> > >> >> > Notice the statement:
> > >> >> > "One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures rarely
> > >> >> > drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic winter
> > >> >> > freezes that devastate eastern Washington State vineyards, on
> > >> >> > average, every seven to ten years.

>
> > >> >> > Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would think a
> > >> >> > climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap right after a
> > >> >> > warm spell. Something like this one.

>
> > >>http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...%20geneva%2003....

>
> > >> >> > Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you do. When
> > >> >> > all the commercial growers are crying in their milk you could be
> > >> >> > laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery loves company" crowd.
> > >> >> > Personally, My vines are still growing and there is a vineyard not
> > >> >> > far from here that grew chardonnay on C3309. Well, the chardonay is
> > >> >> > all dead.

>
> > >> >> Where is this vineyard and how far is it from you?
> > >> >> Where do you live? *What varieties are you growing? *How many vines do
> > >> >> you have?

>
> > >> >> > On Sep 26, 11:19*pm, jay > wrote:
> > >> >> >> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
> > >> >> >> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget Sound,
> > >> >> >> what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
> > >> >> >> harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or
> > >> >> >> rains can damage your crop. The reason I am going to use rootstock
> > >> >> >> is that WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens the clones I have
> > >> >> >> chosen 1-2 weeks earlier by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also
> > >> >> >> show more complex flavor, (Moultan et al )
> > >> >> >> on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go wine
> > >> >> >> tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel
> > >> >> >> driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my self rooted
> > >> >> >> vinefera is simple not a course of action I will take period.- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> Thank You Paul for your good advise,
> *I actually started the WSU viticulture online courses today,
> partially from your recomendations...though so far (two lectures) they
> are more oriented toward the eastern WA growers.
> The main reason (as I stated before) *I want to use rootstocks is
> actually to control vigor and in turn ripen friut earlier, this is
> according to research done at the WSU Mt Vernon research facility
> where they ripen Pinot Noir with around 1600 growing degrees .....by
> the way the Puget Sound is not cold it is an extremely mild climate
> the temp drops below freezing maybe a couple of times a year and the
> ground never freezes. typical winter weather is 40F and raining if it
> does freeze often everything is covered in ice which keeps plants from
> damage....
> jay


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Default Advise for Vineyard Establishment

Lets see Paul,

You were wrong about wood chips, wrong about laterals, wrong about
bees, wrong about Brute trash cans ( most are NSF #2, food grade) ,
wrong about phyloxera being a bigger threat than cold as proven by
"The perfect freeze" and you contradict every other apect of
viticulture according to Lon Rombough. Now, you have given Jay advise
to contact the local viticulture gurus and they agree with me! How
much more wrong could you be?


> > of them I grow and where I live.

>
> This is TOTAL nonesense and anyone following this thread realizes that you
> are NOT contributing ANYTHING useful. *
>
> IF you are happy doing what you are doing, that is fine;
>
> BUT:
>
> to state to OTHERS that professional wine growers are not living in the real
> world, that nurseries are motivated by money only, that the French do not
> know anything about grape growing, that self rooted is the only way to go,
> that fermenting in NON FDA APPROVED containers is just fine, that mulch is
> the way to go for everyone, and that you alone have the secret to success
> and all others are motived by money is pure nonesense.
>
> PLEASE, continue to do what makes you happy * B U T * realize that you are
> expressing an OPINION based on YOUR experience in a LIMITED environment in
> what you perceive as being the WHOLE world of viticulture.
>
> On the other hand I encourage the following:
>
> I encourage all who may read this thread and are interested in growing wine
> grapes to do the following:
>
> Research the availabel literature
>
> Contact the Agriculture Extension agent in the area they live
>
> Contact PROFESSIONAL growers in their area to obtain information as to
> varieties and how to grow these varieties.
>
> Join a growers association in their area, especially those that have
> educational seminars.
>
> If you wish to engage in arguementation, please spend your time in other
> groups who relish this sort of thing, ie, computer languages or programming
> or religion,etc.
>
> > You on the other hand have so many
> > conditions, your flow chart for growing grapes points in all different
> > directions with no end to the logic. I am endorsing OWN ROOTED VINES.
> > They are simple and most of the times have just as much resistance to
> > phyloxera as root stock. In fact, according to the article below root
> > stock is no guarantee either. What I am also saying is that a vine
> > will die of cold damage before it ever will die from phyloxera in a
> > cold climate like Washington.

>
> http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...cks/nyrootstoc...
>
>
>
> > Sep 27, 7:45*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > Don't worry Paul, I have a feeling Maryland will be shocked after the
> >> > coming winter. SOmetimes it doesn't matter where you live.

>
> >> You make no sense.
> >> Are you taking your meds?

>
> >> > On Sep 27, 10:26*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Check this out.
> >> >> >http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?...=1620&issue=59

>
> >> >> > Notice the statement:
> >> >> > "One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures rarely
> >> >> > drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic winter
> >> >> > freezes that devastate eastern Washington State vineyards, on
> >> >> > average, every seven to ten years.

>
> >> >> > Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would think a
> >> >> > climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap right after a
> >> >> > warm spell. Something like this one.

>
> >>http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...%20geneva%2003....

>
> >> >> > Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you do. When
> >> >> > all the commercial growers are crying in their milk you could be
> >> >> > laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery loves company" crowd.
> >> >> > Personally, My vines are still growing and there is a vineyard not
> >> >> > far from here that grew chardonnay on C3309. Well, the chardonay is
> >> >> > all dead.

>
> >> >> Where is this vineyard and how far is it from you?
> >> >> Where do you live? *What varieties are you growing? *How many vines do
> >> >> you have?

>
> >> >> > On Sep 26, 11:19*pm, jay > wrote:
> >> >> >> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
> >> >> >> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget Sound,
> >> >> >> what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
> >> >> >> harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or
> >> >> >> rains can damage your crop. The reason I am going to use rootstock
> >> >> >> is that WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens the clones I have
> >> >> >> chosen 1-2 weeks earlier by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also
> >> >> >> show more complex flavor, (Moultan et al )
> >> >> >> on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go wine
> >> >> >> tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel
> >> >> >> driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my self rooted
> >> >> >> vinefera is simple not a course of action I will take period.


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Default Advise for Vineyard Establishment

Couple more thoughts for anyone reading this in the future.

If you look at vines as an "investment" in the future you want your
investment to keep growing every year. What is lost in the rootstock
issue is the principal that is compounding yearly under the ground.
The root system. With rootstock that nest egg doesn't even resemble
what is above ground. If your vine is killed back to the graft, not
only do you lose the above ground vine but the below ground investment
is useless too. Viticulturists like Paul never mention that fact
because they don't think about it. The root system is the most
important part of the vine but becomes just an afterthought in the
rootstock debate. Here's a scenario to illustrate a "perfect storm".
You buy grafted vines and you plant them. Then you bust your ass for 4
years getting them to produce in the 4th year. Finally you have a year
or 2 of production from the vines. Don't forget, a vine doesn't hit
it's full potential until about the 10th year! That is the goal,
getting to the 10th year and beyond. Now you get a "perfect freeze" in
your 7th year. Not only do you lose everything with grafted vines, you
lose a 7 year root system that would never be damaged by a perfect
freeze if it was own rooted vines. If you grew own rooted vines, not
only would you be back in business in one year, you have a 7 year root
system which, in effect, means you still have a seven year old vine on
your way to the magic 10th year. If you have grafted vines, you start
from scratch basically putting you 7 years in the whole when it comes
to the root system. Which means it'll take tou 17 years to get to the
magic 10th year! WOW. Would anyone really want to take that chance in
a cold climate viticultural area? Not me. Now, if this doesn't make
you think, I don't know what will. In the above scenario, you could
end up cultivating, pruning and sparaying for 10 years and end up with
2 years of non-maximum harvest and starting on year 4 of 4 year old
vines. ( 4 years to grow, 2 years of harvest, killed, 4 years to
grow). Until you have culivated grapes and find out how much work it
is, it is hard for me to comprehend why viticulural gurus would
recommend any other way to grow grapes other that own-rooted in cold
climate areas.






> yearly vintages more than anything else. I had visions of grandeur
> harvesting world class grapes and making world class wine. Well, what
> I'm recommending to you is the result of over 10 years of experience
> and research. I'm not trying to screw you, I'm trying to help you.
> Paul is trying to help you too but he seems to have a myopic view of
> viticulture. I sense he has very little other experience with plants
> and logic. That is just my opinion. You only need to read the links I
> posted about rootstock and "The Perfect Freeze" to see how the worlds
> leading authorities on viticulture contridict themselves. In one
> article Bob Pool wonders about the future of the FInger Lake's
> vinifera because they were killed as a result of being *grown on root
> stock and in the next article recommends rootstock. I have seen first
> hand the trouble and inflexibility of rootstock. Obviously you will do
> what you want but you can't say you didn't have other points of view
> bsides the party line that Paul *will provide. As far as loosening
> your soil, the best way to do it is get a backhoe and dig up the dirt
> down to a level of *3 feet deep for every row you plan to grow. That
> was advised to me and seemed like the right thing to do. I didn't do
> it because of expense. You could also plant your vines with a posthole
> digger and make sure you go down 3 feet with the hole. If you really
> do have sandy loam there shouldn't be a problem as far as compaction
> and also read the info on the web as far as the probability you'll
> have phyloxera problems with sandy soil.
>
> n Sep 28, 3:43*am, jay > wrote:
>
> > On Sep 27, 7:37*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > wrote:

>
> > > wrote:
> > > > I make total sense. What I say is independent of what I grow, how many
> > > > of them I grow and where I live.

>
> > > This is TOTAL nonesense and anyone following this thread realizes that you
> > > are NOT contributing ANYTHING useful. *

>
> > > IF you are happy doing what you are doing, that is fine;

>
> > > BUT:

>
> > > to state to OTHERS that professional wine growers are not living in the real
> > > world, that nurseries are motivated by money only, that the French do not
> > > know anything about grape growing, that self rooted is the only way to go,
> > > that fermenting in NON FDA APPROVED containers is just fine, that mulch is
> > > the way to go for everyone, and that you alone have the secret to success
> > > and all others are motived by money is pure nonesense.

>
> > > PLEASE, continue to do what makes you happy * B U T * realize that you are
> > > expressing an OPINION based on YOUR experience in a LIMITED environment in
> > > what you perceive as being the WHOLE world of viticulture.

>
> > > On the other hand I encourage the following:

>
> > > I encourage all who may read this thread and are interested in growing wine
> > > grapes to do the following:

>
> > > Research the availabel literature

>
> > > Contact the Agriculture Extension agent in the area they live

>
> > > Contact PROFESSIONAL growers in their area to obtain information as to
> > > varieties and how to grow these varieties.

>
> > > Join a growers association in their area, especially those that have
> > > educational seminars.

>
> > > If you wish to engage in arguementation, please spend your time in other
> > > groups who relish this sort of thing, ie, computer languages or programming
> > > or religion,etc.

>
> > > > You on the other hand have so many
> > > > conditions, your flow chart for growing grapes points in all different
> > > > directions with no end to the logic. I am endorsing OWN ROOTED VINES.
> > > > They are simple and most of the times have just as much resistance to
> > > > phyloxera as root stock. In fact, according to the article below root
> > > > stock is no guarantee either. What I am also saying is that a vine
> > > > will die of cold damage before it ever will die from phyloxera in a
> > > > cold climate like Washington.

>
> > >http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...cks/nyrootstoc....

>
> > > > Sep 27, 7:45*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >> > Don't worry Paul, I have a feeling Maryland will be shocked after the
> > > >> > coming winter. SOmetimes it doesn't matter where you live.

>
> > > >> You make no sense.
> > > >> Are you taking your meds?

>
> > > >> > On Sep 27, 10:26*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > > >> > wrote:
> > > >> >> wrote:
> > > >> >> > Check this out.
> > > >> >> >http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?...=1620&issue=59

>
> > > >> >> > Notice the statement:
> > > >> >> > "One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures rarely
> > > >> >> > drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic winter
> > > >> >> > freezes that devastate eastern Washington State vineyards, on
> > > >> >> > average, every seven to ten years.

>
> > > >> >> > Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would think a
> > > >> >> > climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap right after a
> > > >> >> > warm spell. Something like this one.

>
> > > >>http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...%20geneva%2003...

>
> > > >> >> > Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you do. When
> > > >> >> > all the commercial growers are crying in their milk you could be
> > > >> >> > laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery loves company" crowd.
> > > >> >> > Personally, My vines are still growing and there is a vineyard not
> > > >> >> > far from here that grew chardonnay on C3309. Well, the chardonay is
> > > >> >> > all dead.

>
> > > >> >> Where is this vineyard and how far is it from you?
> > > >> >> Where do you live? *What varieties are you growing? *How many vines do
> > > >> >> you have?

>
> > > >> >> > On Sep 26, 11:19*pm, jay > wrote:
> > > >> >> >> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
> > > >> >> >> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget Sound,
> > > >> >> >> what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
> > > >> >> >> harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or
> > > >> >> >> rains can damage your crop. The reason I am going to use rootstock
> > > >> >> >> is that WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens the clones I have
> > > >> >> >> chosen 1-2 weeks earlier by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also
> > > >> >> >> show more complex flavor, (Moultan et al )
> > > >> >> >> on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go wine
> > > >> >> >> tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel
> > > >> >> >> driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my self rooted
> > > >> >> >> vinefera is simple not a course of action I will take period..- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > Thank You Paul for your good advise,
> > *I actually started the WSU viticulture online courses today,
> > partially from your recomendations...though so far (two lectures) they
> > are more oriented toward the eastern WA growers.
> > The main reason (as I stated before) *I want to use rootstocks is
> > actually to control vigor and in turn ripen friut earlier, this is
> > according to research done at the WSU Mt Vernon research facility
> > where they ripen Pinot Noir with around 1600 growing degrees .....by
> > the way the Puget Sound is not cold it is an extremely mild climate
> > the temp drops below freezing maybe a couple of times a year and the
> > ground never freezes. typical winter weather is 40F and raining if it
> > does freeze often everything is covered in ice which keeps plants from
> > damage....
> > jay


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Another thought I left out.

Global warming, while on the surface, would seem good for cold climate
areas, is actually really bad. What it will increase is the cold damge
caused by warm days preceding cold snaps. In these scenarios like "The
Perfect Freeze" the cold temps don't need to be as low as the
advertised kill temps of the variety. All varieties are vulnerable to
freezing temps preceded by warm temps. These type of scenarios have
actually caused most of the damage in the northeast the past decade.
As global warming increases and the probability of warm days in the
winter increases, the probability of this type of damage increases.


On Sep 28, 9:24*am, wrote:
> Couple more thoughts for anyone reading this in the future.
>
> *If you look at vines as an "investment" in the future you want your
> investment to keep growing every year. What is lost in the rootstock
> issue is the principal that is compounding yearly under the ground.
> The root system. With rootstock that nest egg doesn't even resemble
> what is above ground. If your vine is killed back to the graft, not
> only do you lose the above ground vine but the below ground investment
> is useless too. Viticulturists like Paul never mention that fact
> because they don't think about it. The root system is the most
> important part of the vine but becomes just an afterthought in the
> rootstock debate. Here's a scenario to illustrate a "perfect storm".
> You buy grafted vines and you plant them. Then you bust your ass for 4
> years getting them to produce in the 4th year. Finally you have a year
> or 2 of production from the vines. Don't forget, a vine doesn't hit
> it's full potential until about the 10th year! That is the goal,
> getting to the 10th year and beyond. Now you get a "perfect freeze" in
> your 7th year. Not only do you lose everything with grafted vines, you
> lose a 7 year root system that would never be damaged by a perfect
> freeze if it was own rooted vines. If you grew own rooted vines, not
> only would you be back in business in one year, you have a 7 year root
> system which, in effect, means you still have a seven year old vine on
> your way to the magic 10th year. If you have grafted vines, you start
> from scratch basically putting you 7 years in the whole when it comes
> to the root system. Which means it'll take tou 17 years to get to the
> magic 10th year! WOW. Would anyone really want to take that chance in
> a cold climate viticultural area? Not me. Now, if this doesn't make
> you think, I don't know what will. In the above scenario, you could
> end up cultivating, pruning and sparaying for 10 years and end up with
> 2 years of non-maximum harvest and starting on year 4 of 4 year old
> vines. ( 4 years to grow, 2 years of harvest, killed, 4 years to
> grow). Until you have culivated grapes and find out how much work it
> is, it is hard for me to comprehend why viticulural gurus would
> recommend any other way to grow grapes other that own-rooted in cold
> climate areas.
>
> > yearly vintages more than anything else. I had visions of grandeur
> > harvesting world class grapes and making world class wine. Well, what
> > I'm recommending to you is the result of over 10 years of experience
> > and research. I'm not trying to screw you, I'm trying to help you.
> > Paul is trying to help you too but he seems to have a myopic view of
> > viticulture. I sense he has very little other experience with plants
> > and logic. That is just my opinion. You only need to read the links I
> > posted about rootstock and "The Perfect Freeze" to see how the worlds
> > leading authorities on viticulture contridict themselves. In one
> > article Bob Pool wonders about the future of the FInger Lake's
> > vinifera because they were killed as a result of being *grown on root
> > stock and in the next article recommends rootstock. I have seen first
> > hand the trouble and inflexibility of rootstock. Obviously you will do
> > what you want but you can't say you didn't have other points of view
> > bsides the party line that Paul *will provide. As far as loosening
> > your soil, the best way to do it is get a backhoe and dig up the dirt
> > down to a level of *3 feet deep for every row you plan to grow. That
> > was advised to me and seemed like the right thing to do. I didn't do
> > it because of expense. You could also plant your vines with a posthole
> > digger and make sure you go down 3 feet with the hole. If you really
> > do have sandy loam there shouldn't be a problem as far as compaction
> > and also read the info on the web as far as the probability you'll
> > have phyloxera problems with sandy soil.

>
> > n Sep 28, 3:43*am, jay > wrote:

>
> > > On Sep 27, 7:37*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > > wrote:

>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > I make total sense. What I say is independent of what I grow, how many
> > > > > of them I grow and where I live.

>
> > > > This is TOTAL nonesense and anyone following this thread realizes that you
> > > > are NOT contributing ANYTHING useful. *

>
> > > > IF you are happy doing what you are doing, that is fine;

>
> > > > BUT:

>
> > > > to state to OTHERS that professional wine growers are not living in the real
> > > > world, that nurseries are motivated by money only, that the French do not
> > > > know anything about grape growing, that self rooted is the only way to go,
> > > > that fermenting in NON FDA APPROVED containers is just fine, that mulch is
> > > > the way to go for everyone, and that you alone have the secret to success
> > > > and all others are motived by money is pure nonesense.

>
> > > > PLEASE, continue to do what makes you happy * B U T * realize that you are
> > > > expressing an OPINION based on YOUR experience in a LIMITED environment in
> > > > what you perceive as being the WHOLE world of viticulture.

>
> > > > On the other hand I encourage the following:

>
> > > > I encourage all who may read this thread and are interested in growing wine
> > > > grapes to do the following:

>
> > > > Research the availabel literature

>
> > > > Contact the Agriculture Extension agent in the area they live

>
> > > > Contact PROFESSIONAL growers in their area to obtain information as to
> > > > varieties and how to grow these varieties.

>
> > > > Join a growers association in their area, especially those that have
> > > > educational seminars.

>
> > > > If you wish to engage in arguementation, please spend your time in other
> > > > groups who relish this sort of thing, ie, computer languages or programming
> > > > or religion,etc.

>
> > > > > You on the other hand have so many
> > > > > conditions, your flow chart for growing grapes points in all different
> > > > > directions with no end to the logic. I am endorsing OWN ROOTED VINES.
> > > > > They are simple and most of the times have just as much resistance to
> > > > > phyloxera as root stock. In fact, according to the article below root
> > > > > stock is no guarantee either. What I am also saying is that a vine
> > > > > will die of cold damage before it ever will die from phyloxera in a
> > > > > cold climate like Washington.

>
> > > >http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...cks/nyrootstoc...

>
> > > > > Sep 27, 7:45*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >> > Don't worry Paul, I have a feeling Maryland will be shocked after the
> > > > >> > coming winter. SOmetimes it doesn't matter where you live.

>
> > > > >> You make no sense.
> > > > >> Are you taking your meds?

>
> > > > >> > On Sep 27, 10:26*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> >> wrote:
> > > > >> >> > Check this out.
> > > > >> >> >http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?...=1620&issue=59

>
> > > > >> >> > Notice the statement:
> > > > >> >> > "One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures rarely
> > > > >> >> > drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic winter
> > > > >> >> > freezes that devastate eastern Washington State vineyards, on
> > > > >> >> > average, every seven to ten years.

>
> > > > >> >> > Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would think a
> > > > >> >> > climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap right after a
> > > > >> >> > warm spell. Something like this one.

>
> > > > >>http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...%20geneva%2003...

>
> > > > >> >> > Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you do. When
> > > > >> >> > all the commercial growers are crying in their milk you could be
> > > > >> >> > laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery loves company" crowd.
> > > > >> >> > Personally, My vines are still growing and there is a vineyard not
> > > > >> >> > far from here that grew chardonnay on C3309. Well, the chardonay is
> > > > >> >> > all dead.

>
> > > > >> >> Where is this vineyard and how far is it from you?
> > > > >> >> Where do you live? *What varieties are you growing? *How many vines do
> > > > >> >> you have?

>
> > > > >> >> > On Sep 26, 11:19*pm, jay > wrote:
> > > > >> >> >> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
> > > > >> >> >> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget Sound,
> > > > >> >> >> what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
> > > > >> >> >> harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or
> > > > >> >> >> rains can damage your crop. The reason I am going to use rootstock
> > > > >> >> >> is that WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens the clones I have
> > > > >> >> >> chosen 1-2 weeks earlier by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also
> > > > >> >> >> show more complex flavor, (Moultan et al )
> > > > >> >> >> on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go wine
> > > > >> >> >> tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel
> > > > >> >> >> driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my self rooted
> > > > >> >> >> vinefera is simple not a course of action I will take period.- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > > Thank You Paul for your good advise,
> > > *I actually started the WSU viticulture online courses today,
> > > partially from your recomendations...though so far (two lectures) they
> > > are more oriented toward the eastern WA growers.
> > > The main reason (as I stated before) *I want to use rootstocks is
> > > actually to control vigor and in turn ripen friut earlier, this is
> > > according to research done at the WSU Mt Vernon research facility
> > > where they ripen Pinot Noir with around 1600 growing degrees .....by
> > > the way the Puget Sound is not cold it is an extremely mild climate
> > > the temp drops below freezing maybe a couple of times a year and the
> > > ground never freezes. typical winter weather is 40F and

>
> ...
>
> read more »


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Default Advise for Vineyard Establishment

wrote:

> Lets see Paul,
>
> You were wrong about wood chips,


Nope, even your preferred expert, Lon Romboubough does not mention wood chip
mulch. He does mention (page 63) a study done by Cornell University which
showed LOWERED brix levels using mulch. There goes your two brix increase
theory - shot down by your own expert.

> wrong about laterals,


Not hardly, although laterals can contribute they can also be detrimental in
an overly vigorous vineyard and promote poor air circulation and hence
disease. The OP was referencing his overly vigorous vineyard.

> wrong about
> bees,


I remember saying that bees are attracted to damaged fruit such as bird
pecks or other predators. Do you disagree with this?

> wrong about Brute trash cans ( most are NSF #2, food grade) ,


Not all Rubbermaid Brute trash cans are food grade or suitable for
fermenting wine.

This was information I received FROM THE MANUFACTURER and was about a
particular Rubbermaid Trash can(s) that I was considering buying.

If you want to take the risk and poisin yourself, be my guest. For all
others, I suggest you call the manufacturer and ask specifically if the
particular Brute Trash can you are considering buying is suitable for
fermenting wine. There are other safer options available.

> wrong about phyloxera being a bigger threat than cold as proven by
> "The perfect freeze" and you contradict every other apect of
> viticulture according to Lon Rombough.


Lon Rombough is not against root stock. I suggest you read pages 169-73
There are certain rootstocks that make certain varieties MORE winter hardy.
In addition you can read the other benefits of rootstock if you bother to
read your source. His only criticism to rootstock vines is their
compartively higher cost than self rooted. This increased cost can be
recouped from other benefits.

He even includes a list of books on rootstocks in the Bibliography.
If you reference an "expert" it would serve you well to actually read what
the "expert" says.

> Now, you have given Jay advise
> to contact the local viticulture gurus and they agree with me! How
> much more wrong could you be?


I think Jay has a lot more on the ball and knows how to research the facts
and not listen to self proclaimed experts like yourself.

>
>
>> > of them I grow and where I live.

>>
>> This is TOTAL nonesense and anyone following this thread realizes that
>> you are NOT contributing ANYTHING useful.
>>
>> IF you are happy doing what you are doing, that is fine;
>>
>> BUT:
>>
>> to state to OTHERS that professional wine growers are not living in the
>> real world, that nurseries are motivated by money only, that the French
>> do not know anything about grape growing, that self rooted is the only
>> way to go, that fermenting in NON FDA APPROVED containers is just fine,
>> that mulch is the way to go for everyone, and that you alone have the
>> secret to success and all others are motived by money is pure nonesense.
>>
>> PLEASE, continue to do what makes you happy Â* B U T Â* realize that you
>> are expressing an OPINION based on YOUR experience in a LIMITED
>> environment in what you perceive as being the WHOLE world of viticulture.
>>
>> On the other hand I encourage the following:
>>
>> I encourage all who may read this thread and are interested in growing
>> wine grapes to do the following:
>>
>> Research the availabel literature
>>
>> Contact the Agriculture Extension agent in the area they live
>>
>> Contact PROFESSIONAL growers in their area to obtain information as to
>> varieties and how to grow these varieties.
>>
>> Join a growers association in their area, especially those that have
>> educational seminars.
>>
>> If you wish to engage in arguementation, please spend your time in other
>> groups who relish this sort of thing, ie, computer languages or
>> programming or religion,etc.
>>
>> > You on the other hand have so many
>> > conditions, your flow chart for growing grapes points in all different
>> > directions with no end to the logic. I am endorsing OWN ROOTED VINES.
>> > They are simple and most of the times have just as much resistance to
>> > phyloxera as root stock. In fact, according to the article below root
>> > stock is no guarantee either. What I am also saying is that a vine
>> > will die of cold damage before it ever will die from phyloxera in a
>> > cold climate like Washington.

>>
>>
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...cks/nyrootstoc...
>>
>>
>>
>> > Sep 27, 7:45Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Don't worry Paul, I have a feeling Maryland will be shocked after
>> >> > the coming winter. SOmetimes it doesn't matter where you live.

>>
>> >> You make no sense.
>> >> Are you taking your meds?

>>
>> >> > On Sep 27, 10:26Â*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Check this out.
>> >> >> >http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?...=1620&issue=59

>>
>> >> >> > Notice the statement:
>> >> >> > "One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures
>> >> >> > rarely drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic
>> >> >> > winter freezes that devastate eastern Washington State vineyards,
>> >> >> > on average, every seven to ten years.

>>
>> >> >> > Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would think a
>> >> >> > climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap right
>> >> >> > after a warm spell. Something like this one.

>>
>>
>>http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...%20geneva%2003...
>>
>> >> >> > Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you do.
>> >> >> > When all the commercial growers are crying in their milk you
>> >> >> > could be laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery loves
>> >> >> > company" crowd. Personally, My vines are still growing and there
>> >> >> > is a vineyard not far from here that grew chardonnay on C3309.
>> >> >> > Well, the chardonay is all dead.

>>
>> >> >> Where is this vineyard and how far is it from you?
>> >> >> Where do you live? Â*What varieties are you growing? Â*How many vines
>> >> >> do you have?

>>
>> >> >> > On Sep 26, 11:19Â*pm, jay > wrote:
>> >> >> >> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
>> >> >> >> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget
>> >> >> >> Sound, what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts
>> >> >> >> just around harvest so some years you might be ok others and
>> >> >> >> early frost or rains can damage your crop. The reason I am going
>> >> >> >> to use rootstock is that WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens
>> >> >> >> the clones I have chosen 1-2 weeks earlier by redusing vine
>> >> >> >> vigor, the grapes also show more complex flavor, (Moultan et al
>> >> >> >> ) on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go
>> >> >> >> wine tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my
>> >> >> >> gravel driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my
>> >> >> >> self rooted vinefera is simple not a course of action I will
>> >> >> >> take period.




  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
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On Sep 28, 5:15*am, wrote:
> Jay write:
> ".though so far (two lectures) they are more oriented toward the
> eastern WA growers. "
>
> IOW, they agree with doublesb.
>
> On Sep 28, 3:43*am, jay > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 27, 7:37*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > wrote:

>
> > > wrote:
> > > > I make total sense. What I say is independent of what I grow, how many
> > > > of them I grow and where I live.

>
> > > This is TOTAL nonesense and anyone following this thread realizes that you
> > > are NOT contributing ANYTHING useful. *

>
> > > IF you are happy doing what you are doing, that is fine;

>
> > > BUT:

>
> > > to state to OTHERS that professional wine growers are not living in the real
> > > world, that nurseries are motivated by money only, that the French do not
> > > know anything about grape growing, that self rooted is the only way to go,
> > > that fermenting in NON FDA APPROVED containers is just fine, that mulch is
> > > the way to go for everyone, and that you alone have the secret to success
> > > and all others are motived by money is pure nonesense.

>
> > > PLEASE, continue to do what makes you happy * B U T * realize that you are
> > > expressing an OPINION based on YOUR experience in a LIMITED environment in
> > > what you perceive as being the WHOLE world of viticulture.

>
> > > On the other hand I encourage the following:

>
> > > I encourage all who may read this thread and are interested in growing wine
> > > grapes to do the following:

>
> > > Research the availabel literature

>
> > > Contact the Agriculture Extension agent in the area they live

>
> > > Contact PROFESSIONAL growers in their area to obtain information as to
> > > varieties and how to grow these varieties.

>
> > > Join a growers association in their area, especially those that have
> > > educational seminars.

>
> > > If you wish to engage in arguementation, please spend your time in other
> > > groups who relish this sort of thing, ie, computer languages or programming
> > > or religion,etc.

>
> > > > You on the other hand have so many
> > > > conditions, your flow chart for growing grapes points in all different
> > > > directions with no end to the logic. I am endorsing OWN ROOTED VINES.
> > > > They are simple and most of the times have just as much resistance to
> > > > phyloxera as root stock. In fact, according to the article below root
> > > > stock is no guarantee either. What I am also saying is that a vine
> > > > will die of cold damage before it ever will die from phyloxera in a
> > > > cold climate like Washington.

>
> > >http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...cks/nyrootstoc....

>
> > > > Sep 27, 7:45*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >> > Don't worry Paul, I have a feeling Maryland will be shocked after the
> > > >> > coming winter. SOmetimes it doesn't matter where you live.

>
> > > >> You make no sense.
> > > >> Are you taking your meds?

>
> > > >> > On Sep 27, 10:26*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > > >> > wrote:
> > > >> >> wrote:
> > > >> >> > Check this out.
> > > >> >> >http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?...=1620&issue=59

>
> > > >> >> > Notice the statement:
> > > >> >> > "One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures rarely
> > > >> >> > drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic winter
> > > >> >> > freezes that devastate eastern Washington State vineyards, on
> > > >> >> > average, every seven to ten years.

>
> > > >> >> > Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would think a
> > > >> >> > climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap right after a
> > > >> >> > warm spell. Something like this one.

>
> > > >>http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...%20geneva%2003...

>
> > > >> >> > Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you do. When
> > > >> >> > all the commercial growers are crying in their milk you could be
> > > >> >> > laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery loves company" crowd.
> > > >> >> > Personally, My vines are still growing and there is a vineyard not
> > > >> >> > far from here that grew chardonnay on C3309. Well, the chardonay is
> > > >> >> > all dead.

>
> > > >> >> Where is this vineyard and how far is it from you?
> > > >> >> Where do you live? *What varieties are you growing? *How many vines do
> > > >> >> you have?

>
> > > >> >> > On Sep 26, 11:19*pm, jay > wrote:
> > > >> >> >> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
> > > >> >> >> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget Sound,
> > > >> >> >> what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
> > > >> >> >> harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or
> > > >> >> >> rains can damage your crop. The reason I am going to use rootstock
> > > >> >> >> is that WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens the clones I have
> > > >> >> >> chosen 1-2 weeks earlier by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also
> > > >> >> >> show more complex flavor, (Moultan et al )
> > > >> >> >> on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go wine
> > > >> >> >> tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel
> > > >> >> >> driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my self rooted
> > > >> >> >> vinefera is simple not a course of action I will take period..- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > Thank You Paul for your good advise,
> > *I actually started the WSU viticulture online courses today,
> > partially from your recomendations...though so far (two lectures) they
> > are more oriented toward the eastern WA growers.
> > The main reason (as I stated before) *I want to use rootstocks is
> > actually to control vigor and in turn ripen friut earlier, this is
> > according to research done at the WSU Mt Vernon research facility
> > where they ripen Pinot Noir with around 1600 growing degrees .....by
> > the way the Puget Sound is not cold it is an extremely mild climate
> > the temp drops below freezing maybe a couple of times a year and the
> > ground never freezes. typical winter weather is 40F and raining if it
> > does freeze often everything is covered in ice which keeps plants from
> > damage....
> > jay- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -


No, they recommend rootstock though the ones they recommend are
different on that side of the state
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They recommend rootstock even tho they get a deep freeze every 7-10
years? OK. What do I know? They're the experts.



On Sep 28, 12:46*pm, jay > wrote:
> On Sep 28, 5:15*am, wrote:
>
>
>
> > Jay write:
> > ".though so far (two lectures) they are more oriented toward the
> > eastern WA growers. "

>
> > IOW, they agree with doublesb.

>
> > On Sep 28, 3:43*am, jay > wrote:

>
> > > On Sep 27, 7:37*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > > wrote:

>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > I make total sense. What I say is independent of what I grow, how many
> > > > > of them I grow and where I live.

>
> > > > This is TOTAL nonesense and anyone following this thread realizes that you
> > > > are NOT contributing ANYTHING useful. *

>
> > > > IF you are happy doing what you are doing, that is fine;

>
> > > > BUT:

>
> > > > to state to OTHERS that professional wine growers are not living in the real
> > > > world, that nurseries are motivated by money only, that the French do not
> > > > know anything about grape growing, that self rooted is the only way to go,
> > > > that fermenting in NON FDA APPROVED containers is just fine, that mulch is
> > > > the way to go for everyone, and that you alone have the secret to success
> > > > and all others are motived by money is pure nonesense.

>
> > > > PLEASE, continue to do what makes you happy * B U T * realize that you are
> > > > expressing an OPINION based on YOUR experience in a LIMITED environment in
> > > > what you perceive as being the WHOLE world of viticulture.

>
> > > > On the other hand I encourage the following:

>
> > > > I encourage all who may read this thread and are interested in growing wine
> > > > grapes to do the following:

>
> > > > Research the availabel literature

>
> > > > Contact the Agriculture Extension agent in the area they live

>
> > > > Contact PROFESSIONAL growers in their area to obtain information as to
> > > > varieties and how to grow these varieties.

>
> > > > Join a growers association in their area, especially those that have
> > > > educational seminars.

>
> > > > If you wish to engage in arguementation, please spend your time in other
> > > > groups who relish this sort of thing, ie, computer languages or programming
> > > > or religion,etc.

>
> > > > > You on the other hand have so many
> > > > > conditions, your flow chart for growing grapes points in all different
> > > > > directions with no end to the logic. I am endorsing OWN ROOTED VINES.
> > > > > They are simple and most of the times have just as much resistance to
> > > > > phyloxera as root stock. In fact, according to the article below root
> > > > > stock is no guarantee either. What I am also saying is that a vine
> > > > > will die of cold damage before it ever will die from phyloxera in a
> > > > > cold climate like Washington.

>
> > > >http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...cks/nyrootstoc...

>
> > > > > Sep 27, 7:45*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >> > Don't worry Paul, I have a feeling Maryland will be shocked after the
> > > > >> > coming winter. SOmetimes it doesn't matter where you live.

>
> > > > >> You make no sense.
> > > > >> Are you taking your meds?

>
> > > > >> > On Sep 27, 10:26*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> >> wrote:
> > > > >> >> > Check this out.
> > > > >> >> >http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?...=1620&issue=59

>
> > > > >> >> > Notice the statement:
> > > > >> >> > "One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures rarely
> > > > >> >> > drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic winter
> > > > >> >> > freezes that devastate eastern Washington State vineyards, on
> > > > >> >> > average, every seven to ten years.

>
> > > > >> >> > Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would think a
> > > > >> >> > climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap right after a
> > > > >> >> > warm spell. Something like this one.

>
> > > > >>http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...%20geneva%2003...

>
> > > > >> >> > Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you do. When
> > > > >> >> > all the commercial growers are crying in their milk you could be
> > > > >> >> > laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery loves company" crowd.
> > > > >> >> > Personally, My vines are still growing and there is a vineyard not
> > > > >> >> > far from here that grew chardonnay on C3309. Well, the chardonay is
> > > > >> >> > all dead.

>
> > > > >> >> Where is this vineyard and how far is it from you?
> > > > >> >> Where do you live? *What varieties are you growing? *How many vines do
> > > > >> >> you have?

>
> > > > >> >> > On Sep 26, 11:19*pm, jay > wrote:
> > > > >> >> >> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
> > > > >> >> >> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget Sound,
> > > > >> >> >> what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts just around
> > > > >> >> >> harvest so some years you might be ok others and early frost or
> > > > >> >> >> rains can damage your crop. The reason I am going to use rootstock
> > > > >> >> >> is that WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens the clones I have
> > > > >> >> >> chosen 1-2 weeks earlier by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also
> > > > >> >> >> show more complex flavor, (Moultan et al )
> > > > >> >> >> on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go wine
> > > > >> >> >> tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel
> > > > >> >> >> driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my self rooted
> > > > >> >> >> vinefera is simple not a course of action I will take period.- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > > - Show quoted text -

>
> > > Thank You Paul for your good advise,
> > > *I actually started the WSU viticulture online courses today,
> > > partially from your recomendations...though so far (two lectures) they
> > > are more oriented toward the eastern WA growers.
> > > The main reason (as I stated before) *I want to use rootstocks is
> > > actually to control vigor and in turn ripen friut earlier, this is
> > > according to research done at the WSU Mt Vernon research facility
> > > where they ripen Pinot Noir with around 1600 growing degrees .....by
> > > the way the Puget Sound is not cold it is an extremely mild climate
> > > the temp drops below freezing maybe a couple of times a year and the
> > > ground never freezes. typical winter weather is 40F and raining if it
> > > does freeze often everything is covered in ice which keeps plants from
> > > damage....
> > > jay- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> No, they recommend rootstock though the ones they recommend are
> different on that side of the state


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> No, they recommend rootstock though the ones they recommend are
> different on that side of the state


though the do say that the advantages of own routed vines are cost,
and that there are easy methods of reproducing your vines by layering
and other methods and have a uniform crop with little investment....
BUT you can always regraft new scions to whatever rootstock you have
planted and replace your fuiting wood with any compatable vine.... but
yes Bob I agree recovery would be easier and possibly quicker
retraining new vigourous buds from self rooted vines.....I am not
concerned with this where I live though I appreciate your
contribution, thoughts on the subject and particularly the refrences
you provided.

WSU recommends rootstock as a preventive measure against disease and
for increasing or decreasing vigor, drought tolerance and tolerance to
salinity

They don’t completely disagree with you Bob but they do recommend
looking into the advantages of rootstock over the cost savings and of
vineyard establishment,

i did find out today that 101-14 is more drought tolerant and can
ripen earlier than 3309 ...(maybe) according to one lecture, does
anyone know if this is documented?

I started this thread seeking advice and I appreciate all
contributions especially ones that are well thought out , referenced,
from real personal experience that applies to the question at hand...I
don't appreciate nor will I listen to people I think are more
enthusiastic about their opinions than their research/or experience or
the soundness of their advise....in this case I appreciate you ( BOB )
providing research to support your opinions and respect your arguments
because of it.... the ****ing match is just entertaining....and
generally good for testing the strength on an Idea anyway

.....but I would ask people in general to be careful about giving
advise to those who ask without really knowing what you are talking
about, there is nothing worse than false profits and in some cases
can get people killed...and no I am not kidding, I do some welding
since I work on old motorcyles and a friend of mine took some advise
from someone to clean the materials to be welded with brake
cleaner....which reacted with the argon/electrode combo and nearly
killed him from poisonous gas...apparantly the guy who made the
recommendation never had actually used brake cleaner, but used carb
cleaner and thought it was the same stuff....almost killed him ....

rootstocks it’s going to be I think....in this part of the country you
can just stick cuttings in the wet unfrozen winter earth and in spring
you'll have vines...I can do that anytime at almost no cost.
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Jay,

I give my opinion. That is it. That is what I think these boards are
about. I always remind myself that amateurs built the Ark and
professionals built the Titanic. That being said here is my opinion on
what you are doing.

Pinot Noir is the heartbreak grape. It requires alot of attention. I
have no experience with it but I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot
pole. The work most likely won't justify the time, money or the
result. You will have to spray a lot.

I like hybrids. At first I didn't but I do now. You can grow them own
rooted. I advise anyone starting a vineyard to grow them. They are
less maintenance and if you don't do this for a living you want time
to live your other life. There are many REALLY GOOD hybrids out there
now so, as a hobby I don't recommend any vinifera.

400 vines is a lot. I have 150. It'll take you AT LEAST 4 hrs to
backpack spray 400 vines.

Leave room for a car or ATV in your rows. 400 vines I think is too
much to backpack spray. You will find that eventually you'll be sick
of spraying especially Pinot Noir. If I had to do it all over again
I'd space my rows 10ft apart. I also would probably plant at 5 feet
within rows. It's the distance between rows that I think is the most
important to allow you to move around.

Regent looks like a good grape. I didn't research any of the other
ones but Regent sounds almost too good to be true.

Single wire High cordon is the least maintainance and easiest to
prune. Requires less wires. I use it on all my vines.

Wood Chip mulch. .

This hobby will take more of your time then you think.








On Sep 28, 1:49*pm, jay > wrote:
> > No, they recommend rootstock though the ones they recommend are
> > different on that side of the state

>
> though the do say that the advantages of own routed vines are cost,
> and that there are easy methods of reproducing your vines by layering
> and other methods and have a uniform crop with little investment....
> BUT you can always regraft new scions to whatever rootstock you have
> planted and replace your fuiting wood with any compatable vine.... but
> yes Bob I agree recovery would be easier and possibly quicker
> retraining new vigourous buds from self rooted vines.....I am not
> concerned with this where I live though I appreciate your
> contribution, thoughts on the subject and particularly the refrences
> you provided.
>
> WSU recommends rootstock as a preventive measure against disease and
> for increasing or decreasing vigor, drought tolerance and tolerance to
> salinity
>
> They don’t completely disagree with you Bob but they do recommend
> looking into the advantages of rootstock over the cost savings and of
> vineyard establishment,
>
> i did find out today that 101-14 is more drought tolerant and can
> ripen earlier than 3309 ...(maybe) according to one lecture, *does
> anyone know if this is documented?
>
> I started this thread seeking advice and I appreciate all
> contributions especially ones that are well thought out , referenced,
> from real personal experience that applies to the question at hand...I
> don't appreciate nor will I listen to people I think are more
> enthusiastic about their opinions than their research/or experience or
> the soundness of their advise....in this case I appreciate you ( BOB )
> providing research to support your opinions and respect your arguments
> because of it.... the ****ing match is just entertaining....and
> generally good for testing the strength on an Idea anyway
>
> ....but I would ask people in general to be careful about giving
> advise to those who ask without really knowing what you are talking
> about, there is nothing worse than *false profits and in some cases
> can get people killed...and no I am not kidding, I do some welding
> since I work on old motorcyles and a friend of mine took some advise
> from someone to clean the materials to be welded with brake
> cleaner....which reacted with the argon/electrode combo and nearly
> killed him from poisonous gas...apparantly the guy who made the
> recommendation never had actually used brake cleaner, but used carb
> cleaner and thought it was the same stuff....almost killed him ....
>
> rootstocks it’s going to be I think....in this part of the country you
> can just stick cuttings in the wet unfrozen winter earth and in spring
> you'll have vines...I can do that anytime at almost no cost.


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wrote:

> Jay,
>
> I give my opinion. That is it. That is what I think these boards are
> about. I always remind myself that amateurs built the Ark and
> professionals built the Titanic. That being said here is my opinion on
> what you are doing.
>
> Pinot Noir is the heartbreak grape. It requires alot of attention. I
> have no experience with it but I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot
> pole. The work most likely won't justify the time, money or the
> result. You will have to spray a lot.
>
> I like hybrids. At first I didn't but I do now. You can grow them own
> rooted. I advise anyone starting a vineyard to grow them. They are
> less maintenance and if you don't do this for a living you want time
> to live your other life. There are many REALLY GOOD hybrids out there
> now so, as a hobby I don't recommend any vinifera.
>
> 400 vines is a lot. I have 150. It'll take you AT LEAST 4 hrs to
> backpack spray 400 vines.
>
> Leave room for a car or ATV in your rows. 400 vines I think is too
> much to backpack spray. You will find that eventually you'll be sick
> of spraying especially Pinot Noir. If I had to do it all over again
> I'd space my rows 10ft apart. I also would probably plant at 5 feet
> within rows. It's the distance between rows that I think is the most
> important to allow you to move around.
>
> Regent looks like a good grape. I didn't research any of the other
> ones but Regent sounds almost too good to be true.
>
> Single wire High cordon is the least maintainance and easiest to
> prune. Requires less wires. I use it on all my vines.
>
> Wood Chip mulch. .
>
> This hobby will take more of your time then you think.



Just to prove that I am not against every thing you say; I agree with 90% of
what you just posted.

The things I would add is that certain varieties like Chambourcin are, in my
opinion best planted (in my area) with root stock. The variety, self
rooted does not seem to have roots that go deep enough for water in times
of draught. At least this is my experience and that of others in the
area. - perhaps I should mulch this one row :-)

If I had room, I would plant the following hybrids which are well suited to
the area in which I live; Chardonnel, Traminette, Seyval Blanc.

I dislike high wire. The reason I don't like it (and I do have three rows
of 25 vines each in it) are that it is very difficult to net. If birds are
a problem in your area, this is a big consideration.

The vines I do have on high wire are Chambourcin because of its eratic
growing behavior it is easier just to let them flop over from a high wire
cordon. I also have a row of Norton which also favors downward growth of
shoots. I have one row of Chardonnay that I am going to convert to VSP
because of the bird issue and the fact that Chardonnay loves to grow
vertical and is a relatively easy grape to trellis.

I agree with doublesb on the Pinot Noir issue and also the row width issue
as well as his statement that it is going to take you a lot longer than you
think to maintain.

I have two vineyards. One is in my back yard and consist of 110 vines of
about equal numbers of Merlot, Cabernet Franc and Cabernet Sauvignon.

I recently inherited a friends quarter acre vineyard (175 vines) out in the
country because he had to move to town because of health reasons. The new
owners did not want to maintain the vineyard, did not want wine, they just
wanted someone to maintain the vineyard and make it look nice (works for
me)

Out there (Pleasant Valley, MD) I am growing Nebiollo (don't like growing
this grape even though it is my first year of managing this vineyard - low
producer and late ripening); Chardonnay (75 vines) I like growing this
variety because it grows upright and is a charm to grow, one row of Voigner
(seems to be doing ok) one row of Norton, also known as Cynthiana (hate
this grape - requires high wire and fruit ripens VERY late and has small
clusters with high pH and high TA) and one row of self rooted Chambourcin.
Chambourcin is sulphur sensitive so you can not use it on Chambourcin OR
Norton.

All together I have about 285 vines. If I were not retired, I would have a
VERY difficult time maintaining this many vines.

Harvest time is here and I am fatigued with harvesting. The Chardonnay
produces a LOT of grapes (going to have to correct this next year)

Paul


> On Sep 28, 1:49Â*pm, jay > wrote:
>> > No, they recommend rootstock though the ones they recommend are
>> > different on that side of the state

>>
>> though the do say that the advantages of own routed vines are cost,
>> and that there are easy methods of reproducing your vines by layering
>> and other methods and have a uniform crop with little investment....
>> BUT you can always regraft new scions to whatever rootstock you have
>> planted and replace your fuiting wood with any compatable vine.... but
>> yes Bob I agree recovery would be easier and possibly quicker
>> retraining new vigourous buds from self rooted vines.....I am not
>> concerned with this where I live though I appreciate your
>> contribution, thoughts on the subject and particularly the refrences
>> you provided.
>>
>> WSU recommends rootstock as a preventive measure against disease and
>> for increasing or decreasing vigor, drought tolerance and tolerance to
>> salinity
>>
>> They dont completely disagree with you Bob but they do recommend
>> looking into the advantages of rootstock over the cost savings and of
>> vineyard establishment,
>>
>> i did find out today that 101-14 is more drought tolerant and can
>> ripen earlier than 3309 ...(maybe) according to one lecture, Â*does
>> anyone know if this is documented?
>>
>> I started this thread seeking advice and I appreciate all
>> contributions especially ones that are well thought out , referenced,
>> from real personal experience that applies to the question at hand...I
>> don't appreciate nor will I listen to people I think are more
>> enthusiastic about their opinions than their research/or experience or
>> the soundness of their advise....in this case I appreciate you ( BOB )
>> providing research to support your opinions and respect your arguments
>> because of it.... the ****ing match is just entertaining....and
>> generally good for testing the strength on an Idea anyway
>>
>> ....but I would ask people in general to be careful about giving
>> advise to those who ask without really knowing what you are talking
>> about, there is nothing worse than Â*false profits and in some cases
>> can get people killed...and no I am not kidding, I do some welding
>> since I work on old motorcyles and a friend of mine took some advise
>> from someone to clean the materials to be welded with brake
>> cleaner....which reacted with the argon/electrode combo and nearly
>> killed him from poisonous gas...apparantly the guy who made the
>> recommendation never had actually used brake cleaner, but used carb
>> cleaner and thought it was the same stuff....almost killed him ....
>>
>> rootstocks its going to be I think....in this part of the country you
>> can just stick cuttings in the wet unfrozen winter earth and in spring
>> you'll have vines...I can do that anytime at almost no cost.





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"The things I would add is that certain varieties like Chambourcin
are, in my
opinion best planted (in my area) with root stock. The variety, self
rooted does not seem to have roots that go deep enough for water in
times
of draught. "

There you go. A reason to wood chip mulch! I grow own rooted
Chambourcin. It wasn't doing very well in certain areas of the
vineyard until I mulched the whole vineyard. Try it Paul, you'll like
it. It does take work to move those chips in there but it'll be worth
it and you'll see what I'm talking about.

I don't like Seyval Blanc from the north east. Never had one that I
liked but if you like that "grass" type wine style it probably is
good. I LOVE Traminnette. Am growing some and is tough to kill .

One other thing I think is good in a grape and Paul reminded me of it
is cluster size. Harvesting large clusters is much more pleasant than
harvesting many small ones. I have no idea how it would do in
Washington.

Another thing I do yearly now is prune late do delay bud break. I was
skeptical at first because I thought it was BS but it does delay it a
lot.





On Sep 28, 7:34*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
wrote:
> wrote:
> > Jay,

>
> > I give my opinion. That is it. That is what I think these boards are
> > about. I always remind myself *that amateurs built the Ark and
> > professionals built the Titanic. That being said here is my opinion on
> > what you are doing.

>
> > Pinot Noir is the heartbreak grape. It requires alot of attention. I
> > have no experience with it but I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot
> > pole. The work most likely won't justify the time, money or the
> > result. You will have to spray a lot.

>
> > I like hybrids. At first I didn't but I do now. You can grow them own
> > rooted. I advise anyone starting a vineyard to grow them. They are
> > less maintenance and if you don't do this for a living you want time
> > to live your other life. There are many REALLY GOOD hybrids out there
> > now so, as a hobby I don't recommend any vinifera.

>
> > 400 vines is a lot. I have 150. It'll take you AT LEAST 4 hrs to
> > backpack spray 400 vines.

>
> > Leave room for a car or ATV in your rows. 400 vines I think is too
> > much to backpack spray. You will find that eventually you'll be sick
> > of spraying especially Pinot Noir. If I had to do it all over again
> > I'd space my rows 10ft apart. I also would probably plant at 5 feet
> > within rows. *It's the distance between rows that I think is the most
> > important to allow you to move around.

>
> > Regent looks like a good grape. I didn't research any of the other
> > ones but Regent sounds almost too good to be true.

>
> > Single wire High cordon is the least maintainance and easiest to
> > prune. Requires less wires. I use it on all my vines.

>
> > Wood Chip mulch. .

>
> > This hobby will take more of your time then you think.

>
> Just to prove that I am not against every thing you say; I agree with 90% of
> what you just posted.
>
> The things I would add is that certain varieties like Chambourcin are, in my
> opinion best planted (in my area) with root stock. *The variety, self
> rooted does not seem to have roots that go deep enough for water in times
> of draught. *At least this is my experience and that of others in the
> area. - perhaps I should mulch this one row :-)
>
> If I had room, I would plant the following hybrids which are well suited to
> the area in which I live; Chardonnel, Traminette, Seyval Blanc.
>
> I dislike high wire. *The reason I don't like it (and I do have three rows
> of 25 vines each in it) are that it is very difficult to net. *If birds are
> a problem in your area, this is a big consideration. *
>
> The vines I do have on high wire are Chambourcin because of its eratic
> growing behavior it is easier just to let them flop over from a high wire
> cordon. *I also have a row of Norton which also favors downward growth of
> shoots. *I have one row of Chardonnay that I am going to convert to VSP
> because of the bird issue and the fact that Chardonnay loves to grow
> vertical and is a relatively easy grape to trellis.
>
> I agree with doublesb on the Pinot Noir issue and also the row width issue
> as well as his statement that it is going to take you a lot longer than you
> think to maintain.
>
> I have two vineyards. *One is in my back yard and consist of 110 vines of
> about equal numbers of Merlot, Cabernet Franc and Cabernet Sauvignon.
>
> I recently inherited a friends quarter acre vineyard (175 vines) out in the
> country because he had to move to town because of health reasons. *The new
> owners did not want to maintain the vineyard, did not want wine, they just
> wanted someone to maintain the vineyard and make it look nice (works for
> me)
>
> Out there (Pleasant Valley, MD) I am growing Nebiollo (don't like growing
> this grape even though it is my first year of managing this vineyard - low
> producer and late ripening); Chardonnay (75 vines) I like growing this
> variety because it grows upright and is a charm to grow, one row of Voigner
> (seems to be doing ok) one row of Norton, also known as Cynthiana (hate
> this grape - requires high wire and fruit ripens VERY late and has small
> clusters with high pH and high TA) and one row of self rooted Chambourcin..
> Chambourcin is sulphur sensitive so you can not use it on Chambourcin OR
> Norton.
>
> All together I have about 285 vines. *If I were not retired, I would have a
> VERY difficult time maintaining this many vines. *
>
> Harvest time is here and I am fatigued with harvesting. *The Chardonnay
> produces a LOT of grapes (going to have to correct this next year)
>
> Paul
>
> > On Sep 28, 1:49*pm, jay > wrote:
> >> > No, they recommend rootstock though the ones they recommend are
> >> > different on that side of the state

>
> >> though the do say that the advantages of own routed vines are cost,
> >> and that there are easy methods of reproducing your vines by layering
> >> and other methods and have a uniform crop with little investment....
> >> BUT you can always regraft new scions to whatever rootstock you have
> >> planted and replace your fuiting wood with any compatable vine.... but
> >> yes Bob I agree recovery would be easier and possibly quicker
> >> retraining new vigourous buds from self rooted vines.....I am not
> >> concerned with this where I live though I appreciate your
> >> contribution, thoughts on the subject and particularly the refrences
> >> you provided.

>
> >> WSU recommends rootstock as a preventive measure against disease and
> >> for increasing or decreasing vigor, drought tolerance and tolerance to
> >> salinity

>
> >> They don’t completely disagree with you Bob but they do recommend
> >> looking into the advantages of rootstock over the cost savings and of
> >> vineyard establishment,

>
> >> i did find out today that 101-14 is more drought tolerant and can
> >> ripen earlier than 3309 ...(maybe) according to one lecture, *does
> >> anyone know if this is documented?

>
> >> I started this thread seeking advice and I appreciate all
> >> contributions especially ones that are well thought out , referenced,
> >> from real personal experience that applies to the question at hand...I
> >> don't appreciate nor will I listen to people I think are more
> >> enthusiastic about their opinions than their research/or experience or
> >> the soundness of their advise....in this case I appreciate you ( BOB )
> >> providing research to support your opinions and respect your arguments
> >> because of it.... the ****ing match is just entertaining....and
> >> generally good for testing the strength on an Idea anyway

>
> >> ....but I would ask people in general to be careful about giving
> >> advise to those who ask without really knowing what you are talking
> >> about, there is nothing worse than *false profits and in some cases
> >> can get people killed...and no I am not kidding, I do some welding
> >> since I work on old motorcyles and a friend of mine took some advise
> >> from someone to clean the materials to be welded with brake
> >> cleaner....which reacted with the argon/electrode combo and nearly
> >> killed him from poisonous gas...apparantly the guy who made the
> >> recommendation never had actually used brake cleaner, but used carb
> >> cleaner and thought it was the same stuff....almost killed him ....

>
> >> rootstocks it’s going to be I think....in this part of the country you
> >> can just stick cuttings in the wet unfrozen winter earth and in spring
> >> you'll have vines...I can do that anytime at almost no cost.


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On Sep 28, 9:02*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
> In article >, "Or

perhaps you were unaware that other materials, which do not rot or
support the
growth of fungus, can be used as mulch? "

LOL. That's why it's good. Because it rots and promotes the growth of
fungus.ROFLMAO!


wrote:
>
> >"The things I would add is that certain varieties like Chambourcin
> >are, in my
> >opinion best planted (in my area) with root stock. *The variety, self
> >rooted does not seem to have roots that go deep enough for water in
> >times
> >of draught. "

>
> >There you go. A reason to wood chip mulch!

>
> Ummmm..... no. A reason to mulch. Not a reason to mulch _with wood chips_.. Or
> perhaps you were unaware that other materials, which do not rot or support the
> growth of fungus, can be used as mulch?


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Default Advise for Vineyard Establishment

wrote:

> "The things I would add is that certain varieties like Chambourcin
> are, in my
> opinion best planted (in my area) with root stock. The variety, self
> rooted does not seem to have roots that go deep enough for water in
> times
> of draught. "
>
> There you go. A reason to wood chip mulch! I grow own rooted
> Chambourcin. It wasn't doing very well in certain areas of the
> vineyard until I mulched the whole vineyard. Try it Paul, you'll like
> it. It does take work to move those chips in there but it'll be worth
> it and you'll see what I'm talking about.


It is a 175 foot length of row. That is a LOT of wood chips.

Right now, this vineyard is not cultivated. It has grass in the isles and
under the vines. It is not showing draught stress. We have had PLENTY of
water this year.

I screwed up by spraying a small amount of sulphur in my spray mix and the
temps were not hot when I sprayed it but the leaf margins on the
Chambourcin are definately showing scorch. The Chambourcin also has what
appears to be Rupestris speckle OR, as one grower says it may be Ozone
damage. Chambourcin is suppose to be an indicator of Ozone.

>
> I don't like Seyval Blanc from the north east. Never had one that I
> liked but if you like that "grass" type wine style it probably is
> good. I LOVE Traminnette. Am growing some and is tough to kill .


I made a Seyval Blanc last year that got rave reviews. I think it has the
potential to being a good blending grape. It is a prolific producer and
can be cropped quite heavily without affecting quality.

I also love Traminnette. I don't grow (no room left) any but I have a
source a few miles from me over in Northern Virginia. He gives me
commercial rates for the grapes since I used to work for a commercial
grower.

The grower said "Do not cold soak because It can make the wine bitter" but
this has not been my experience. Two years ago I cold soaked overnight and
the wine was terrific. Last year, I did not cold soak overnight and the
aromatics were almost absent. Needless to say, I cold soaked this year
and I can already tell that the aromatics are there in full force.

I also cold soaked overnight my Chardonnay and Voigner. Mainly it was
because of a logistics problem but I think it is going to be good. I have
some Chardonnay left to harvest so I am going to do the unmentionable and
experiment by actually fermenting it on the skins. I am going to harvest
Thursday and I know the pH and TA are going to be outside the range for a
typical "White" so it is worth an experiment.

>
> One other thing I think is good in a grape and Paul reminded me of it
> is cluster size. Harvesting large clusters is much more pleasant than
> harvesting many small ones. I have no idea how it would do in
> Washington.
>
> Another thing I do yearly now is prune late do delay bud break. I was
> skeptical at first because I thought it was BS but it does delay it a
> lot.


I may try it also this coming season.


>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 28, 7:34Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > Jay,

>>
>> > I give my opinion. That is it. That is what I think these boards are
>> > about. I always remind myself Â*that amateurs built the Ark and
>> > professionals built the Titanic. That being said here is my opinion on
>> > what you are doing.

>>
>> > Pinot Noir is the heartbreak grape. It requires alot of attention. I
>> > have no experience with it but I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot
>> > pole. The work most likely won't justify the time, money or the
>> > result. You will have to spray a lot.

>>
>> > I like hybrids. At first I didn't but I do now. You can grow them own
>> > rooted. I advise anyone starting a vineyard to grow them. They are
>> > less maintenance and if you don't do this for a living you want time
>> > to live your other life. There are many REALLY GOOD hybrids out there
>> > now so, as a hobby I don't recommend any vinifera.

>>
>> > 400 vines is a lot. I have 150. It'll take you AT LEAST 4 hrs to
>> > backpack spray 400 vines.

>>
>> > Leave room for a car or ATV in your rows. 400 vines I think is too
>> > much to backpack spray. You will find that eventually you'll be sick
>> > of spraying especially Pinot Noir. If I had to do it all over again
>> > I'd space my rows 10ft apart. I also would probably plant at 5 feet
>> > within rows. Â*It's the distance between rows that I think is the most
>> > important to allow you to move around.

>>
>> > Regent looks like a good grape. I didn't research any of the other
>> > ones but Regent sounds almost too good to be true.

>>
>> > Single wire High cordon is the least maintainance and easiest to
>> > prune. Requires less wires. I use it on all my vines.

>>
>> > Wood Chip mulch. .

>>
>> > This hobby will take more of your time then you think.

>>
>> Just to prove that I am not against every thing you say; I agree with 90%
>> of what you just posted.
>>
>> The things I would add is that certain varieties like Chambourcin are, in
>> my opinion best planted (in my area) with root stock. Â*The variety, self
>> rooted does not seem to have roots that go deep enough for water in times
>> of draught. Â*At least this is my experience and that of others in the
>> area. - perhaps I should mulch this one row :-)
>>
>> If I had room, I would plant the following hybrids which are well suited
>> to the area in which I live; Chardonnel, Traminette, Seyval Blanc.
>>
>> I dislike high wire. Â*The reason I don't like it (and I do have three
>> rows of 25 vines each in it) are that it is very difficult to net. Â*If
>> birds are a problem in your area, this is a big consideration.
>>
>> The vines I do have on high wire are Chambourcin because of its eratic
>> growing behavior it is easier just to let them flop over from a high wire
>> cordon. Â*I also have a row of Norton which also favors downward growth of
>> shoots. Â*I have one row of Chardonnay that I am going to convert to VSP
>> because of the bird issue and the fact that Chardonnay loves to grow
>> vertical and is a relatively easy grape to trellis.
>>
>> I agree with doublesb on the Pinot Noir issue and also the row width
>> issue as well as his statement that it is going to take you a lot longer
>> than you think to maintain.
>>
>> I have two vineyards. Â*One is in my back yard and consist of 110 vines of
>> about equal numbers of Merlot, Cabernet Franc and Cabernet Sauvignon.
>>
>> I recently inherited a friends quarter acre vineyard (175 vines) out in
>> the country because he had to move to town because of health reasons.
>> The new owners did not want to maintain the vineyard, did not want wine,
>> they just wanted someone to maintain the vineyard and make it look nice
>> (works for me)
>>
>> Out there (Pleasant Valley, MD) I am growing Nebiollo (don't like growing
>> this grape even though it is my first year of managing this vineyard -
>> low producer and late ripening); Chardonnay (75 vines) I like growing
>> this variety because it grows upright and is a charm to grow, one row of
>> Voigner (seems to be doing ok) one row of Norton, also known as Cynthiana
>> (hate this grape - requires high wire and fruit ripens VERY late and has
>> small clusters with high pH and high TA) and one row of self rooted
>> Chambourcin. Chambourcin is sulphur sensitive so you can not use it on
>> Chambourcin OR Norton.
>>
>> All together I have about 285 vines. Â*If I were not retired, I would have
>> a VERY difficult time maintaining this many vines.
>>
>> Harvest time is here and I am fatigued with harvesting. Â*The Chardonnay
>> produces a LOT of grapes (going to have to correct this next year)
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> > On Sep 28, 1:49Â*pm, jay > wrote:
>> >> > No, they recommend rootstock though the ones they recommend are
>> >> > different on that side of the state

>>
>> >> though the do say that the advantages of own routed vines are cost,
>> >> and that there are easy methods of reproducing your vines by layering
>> >> and other methods and have a uniform crop with little investment....
>> >> BUT you can always regraft new scions to whatever rootstock you have
>> >> planted and replace your fuiting wood with any compatable vine.... but
>> >> yes Bob I agree recovery would be easier and possibly quicker
>> >> retraining new vigourous buds from self rooted vines.....I am not
>> >> concerned with this where I live though I appreciate your
>> >> contribution, thoughts on the subject and particularly the refrences
>> >> you provided.

>>
>> >> WSU recommends rootstock as a preventive measure against disease and
>> >> for increasing or decreasing vigor, drought tolerance and tolerance to
>> >> salinity

>>
>> >> They dont completely disagree with you Bob but they do recommend
>> >> looking into the advantages of rootstock over the cost savings and of
>> >> vineyard establishment,

>>
>> >> i did find out today that 101-14 is more drought tolerant and can
>> >> ripen earlier than 3309 ...(maybe) according to one lecture, Â*does
>> >> anyone know if this is documented?

>>
>> >> I started this thread seeking advice and I appreciate all
>> >> contributions especially ones that are well thought out , referenced,
>> >> from real personal experience that applies to the question at hand...I
>> >> don't appreciate nor will I listen to people I think are more
>> >> enthusiastic about their opinions than their research/or experience or
>> >> the soundness of their advise....in this case I appreciate you ( BOB )
>> >> providing research to support your opinions and respect your arguments
>> >> because of it.... the ****ing match is just entertaining....and
>> >> generally good for testing the strength on an Idea anyway

>>
>> >> ....but I would ask people in general to be careful about giving
>> >> advise to those who ask without really knowing what you are talking
>> >> about, there is nothing worse than Â*false profits and in some cases
>> >> can get people killed...and no I am not kidding, I do some welding
>> >> since I work on old motorcyles and a friend of mine took some advise
>> >> from someone to clean the materials to be welded with brake
>> >> cleaner....which reacted with the argon/electrode combo and nearly
>> >> killed him from poisonous gas...apparantly the guy who made the
>> >> recommendation never had actually used brake cleaner, but used carb
>> >> cleaner and thought it was the same stuff....almost killed him ....

>>
>> >> rootstocks its going to be I think....in this part of the country you
>> >> can just stick cuttings in the wet unfrozen winter earth and in spring
>> >> you'll have vines...I can do that anytime at almost no cost.


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On Sep 25, 12:48 am, jay > wrote:
> Gentleman,
> I am new to the board and was wondering if anyone, has any advise for
> me.
> I am currently in the military and deployed as usual, but will be
> returning in February to a house I recently purchased in Yelm, Wa....
> this spring I want to plant an experimental vineyard.
> The soil at my site is Sandy Loam but I am not sure how deep before it
> reaches the semipermeable sublayer that is all over the Pacific NW
>
> I have currently ordered about 400 vines all reds, Regent, Pinot Noir
> Precoce, 777, St Laurent, and Garanoir all on 3309 and 101-14 but I
> can adjust m order through Jan.
>
> I am currently wrestling with ; which clones to plant and how much,
> vine spacing, methods of tilling/ riping the soil/ soil amendments
>
> I was thinking of using a tight spacing maybe 3x6, and only tilling
> the actual rows to leave the soil and covercrop between rows intact
> but I am not sure how to break through the hard sublayer, I was
> thinking of using an auger and just breaking up the layer under each
> vine...
>
> any thoughts?
>
> Jason


Jason,

Vinifera needs to be on rootstock. Period. It is not impossible that
you might see freeze damage at some point, but you will without
question eventually see phyloxerra to some degree. Freeze damage to
graft unions is usually manifested by crown gall infections. You
probably don't have the bacteria that causes it in your area.
Phyloxerra don't thrive in very sandy soil, but they are all over the
country. Even if you avoided a heavy infection that killed your vines
quickly, they will eventually cause enough damage to shorten the life
of your plants. If you grow hybrids, you might be OK own rooted,
although nematodes are also an issue. The guy at Hollywood Hills
Vineyards knows more about Regent than anybody in the country,
particularly in that area. Listen to him regarding Regent (and Pinot
Noir).

Do be particular on the source of your rootstock. A few years ago,
there was a lot of rootstock sold that was infected with "black goo",
which could be the cause of the dead Chardonnay that was mentioned.

Make sure you carefully consider if 3 x 6 spacing is truly what you
want. Maybe that is what you have to do to get the number of vines
you want on your available land, but it is tight. Your effective
clearance between rows will end up being around 4 feet, and that is if
you keep everything trained really well. I heard a talk by a vineyard
consultant who is currently recommending 4 x 7 spacing with double
trunks and single cane pruned (per trunk). The short canes were used
because cordons were considered a repository for disease organisms.

Good Luck,

Stephen
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