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Default Advise for Vineyard Establishment

Thanks again everyone,

Well the goal here is to get enough for a barrel of Regent and test
out some of the other red grapes that grow here, possibly get a barrel
of mixed "Pinot Type"
I will be doing this basically full time while being a stay at home
dad and I am going from an extremely high intesity high stress high
commitment high op tempo proffession and studying and hard work are
not an issue....my wife thinks there is no way I won't be bored out of
my mind being a stay at home dad and will be contracting in indonesia
within the year....I can't lose the bet!! I need something to keep me
home!!!

if I am successful in this test vineyard I would plan to clear enough
of my ten acres for a commercial planting.

Hollywood Hills recommended planting 200 vines of Regent to get a
barrel and 300 to get a barrel of Pinot but from the vineyard planning
lectures at WSU the "formulas" come out to less than half of that
recommendation.... any thoughts? I would ask Hollywood Hill but I know
he is busy as heck right now.

I think maybe space out my vines to 5x7? I wanted to close plant the
Pinot types to reduce vigor but Maybe that was too close and I might
reduce the number of vines to the minumum to accomplish my goals.

as for spraying the majority of the vines are going to Regent and
according to local growers don't need to be sprayed, I will have less
then 100 pinot but nevertheless I will space out vines to allow for
the need to use a vehicle between rows.

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Default Advise for Vineyard Establishment

"It is a 175 foot length of row. That is a LOT of wood chips. "

LOL. Not really. . I have over 1200 feet of vineyard all mulched
with wood chips. I do a little at a time. If you do 10 vines a day it
would take you a couple weeks and you have all winter down there in
tropical Maryland. I use a wheel barrel and chips are light. It's just
like a walk in the park. Anyway, mulch 5 vines and see if you see any
difference. Do you mow under the vines or do you let the grass grow?


On Sep 28, 9:36*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
wrote:
> wrote:
> > "The things I would add is that certain varieties like Chambourcin
> > are, in my
> > opinion best planted (in my area) with root stock. *The variety, self
> > rooted does not seem to have roots that go deep enough for water in
> > times
> > of draught. "

>
> > There you go. A reason to wood chip mulch! I grow own rooted
> > Chambourcin. It wasn't doing very well in certain areas of the
> > vineyard until I mulched the whole vineyard. Try it Paul, you'll like
> > it. It does take work to move those chips in there but it'll be worth
> > it and you'll see what I'm talking about.

>
> It is a 175 foot length of row. That is a LOT of wood chips.
>
> Right now, this vineyard is not cultivated. *It has grass in the isles and
> under the vines. It is not showing draught stress. *We have had PLENTY of
> water this year.
>
> I screwed up by spraying a small amount of sulphur in my spray mix and the
> temps were not hot when I sprayed it but the leaf margins on the
> Chambourcin are definately showing scorch. The Chambourcin also has what
> appears to be Rupestris speckle OR, as one grower says it may be Ozone
> damage. *Chambourcin is suppose to be an indicator of Ozone.
>
>
>
> > I don't like Seyval Blanc from the north east. Never had one that I
> > liked but if you like that "grass" type wine style it probably is
> > good. I LOVE Traminnette. Am growing some and is tough to kill .

>
> I made a Seyval Blanc last year that got rave reviews. *I think it has the
> potential to being a good blending grape. *It is a prolific producer and
> can be cropped quite heavily without affecting quality.
>
> I also love Traminnette. *I don't grow (no room left) any but I have a
> source a few miles from me over in Northern Virginia. He gives me
> commercial rates for the grapes since I used to work for a commercial
> grower.
>
> The grower said "Do not cold soak because It can make the wine bitter" but
> this has not been my experience. *Two years ago I cold soaked overnight and
> the wine was terrific. *Last year, I did not cold soak overnight and the
> aromatics were *almost absent. *Needless to say, I cold soaked this year
> and I can already tell that the aromatics are there *in full force. *
>
> I also cold soaked overnight my Chardonnay and Voigner. Mainly it was
> because of a logistics problem but I think it is going to be good. *I have
> some Chardonnay left to harvest so I am going to do the unmentionable and
> experiment by actually fermenting it on the skins. I am going to harvest
> Thursday and I know the pH and TA are going to be outside the range for a
> typical "White" so it is worth an experiment.
>
>
>
> > One other thing I think is good in a grape and Paul reminded me of it
> > is cluster size. Harvesting large clusters is much more pleasant than
> > harvesting many small ones. I have no idea how it would do in
> > Washington.

>
> > Another thing I do yearly now is prune late do delay bud break. I was
> > skeptical at first because I thought it was BS but it does delay it a
> > lot.

>
> I may try it also this coming season.
>
>
>
> > On Sep 28, 7:34*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > Jay,

>
> >> > I give my opinion. That is it. That is what I think these boards are
> >> > about. I always remind myself *that amateurs built the Ark and
> >> > professionals built the Titanic. That being said here is my opinion on
> >> > what you are doing.

>
> >> > Pinot Noir is the heartbreak grape. It requires alot of attention. I
> >> > have no experience with it but I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot
> >> > pole. The work most likely won't justify the time, money or the
> >> > result. You will have to spray a lot.

>
> >> > I like hybrids. At first I didn't but I do now. You can grow them own
> >> > rooted. I advise anyone starting a vineyard to grow them. They are
> >> > less maintenance and if you don't do this for a living you want time
> >> > to live your other life. There are many REALLY GOOD hybrids out there
> >> > now so, as a hobby I don't recommend any vinifera.

>
> >> > 400 vines is a lot. I have 150. It'll take you AT LEAST 4 hrs to
> >> > backpack spray 400 vines.

>
> >> > Leave room for a car or ATV in your rows. 400 vines I think is too
> >> > much to backpack spray. You will find that eventually you'll be sick
> >> > of spraying especially Pinot Noir. If I had to do it all over again
> >> > I'd space my rows 10ft apart. I also would probably plant at 5 feet
> >> > within rows. *It's the distance between rows that I think is the most
> >> > important to allow you to move around.

>
> >> > Regent looks like a good grape. I didn't research any of the other
> >> > ones but Regent sounds almost too good to be true.

>
> >> > Single wire High cordon is the least maintainance and easiest to
> >> > prune. Requires less wires. I use it on all my vines.

>
> >> > Wood Chip mulch. .

>
> >> > This hobby will take more of your time then you think.

>
> >> Just to prove that I am not against every thing you say; I agree with 90%
> >> of what you just posted.

>
> >> The things I would add is that certain varieties like Chambourcin are, in
> >> my opinion best planted (in my area) with root stock. *The variety, self
> >> rooted does not seem to have roots that go deep enough for water in times
> >> of draught. *At least this is my experience and that of others in the
> >> area. - perhaps I should mulch this one row :-)

>
> >> If I had room, I would plant the following hybrids which are well suited
> >> to the area in which I live; Chardonnel, Traminette, Seyval Blanc.

>
> >> I dislike high wire. *The reason I don't like it (and I do have three
> >> rows of 25 vines each in it) are that it is very difficult to net. *If
> >> birds are a problem in your area, this is a big consideration.

>
> >> The vines I do have on high wire are Chambourcin because of its eratic
> >> growing behavior it is easier just to let them flop over from a high wire
> >> cordon. *I also have a row of Norton which also favors downward growth of
> >> shoots. *I have one row of Chardonnay that I am going to convert to VSP
> >> because of the bird issue and the fact that Chardonnay loves to grow
> >> vertical and is a relatively easy grape to trellis.

>
> >> I agree with doublesb on the Pinot Noir issue and also the row width
> >> issue as well as his statement that it is going to take you a lot longer
> >> than you think to maintain.

>
> >> I have two vineyards. *One is in my back yard and consist of 110 vines of
> >> about equal numbers of Merlot, Cabernet Franc and Cabernet Sauvignon.

>
> >> I recently inherited a friends quarter acre vineyard (175 vines) out in
> >> the country because he had to move to town because of health reasons.
> >> The new owners did not want to maintain the vineyard, did not want wine,
> >> they just wanted someone to maintain the vineyard and make it look nice
> >> (works for me)

>
> >> Out there (Pleasant Valley, MD) I am growing Nebiollo (don't like growing
> >> this grape even though it is my first year of managing this vineyard -
> >> low producer and late ripening); Chardonnay (75 vines) I like growing
> >> this variety because it grows upright and is a charm to grow, one row of
> >> Voigner (seems to be doing ok) one row of Norton, also known as Cynthiana
> >> (hate this grape - requires high wire and fruit ripens VERY late and has
> >> small clusters with high pH and high TA) and one row of self rooted
> >> Chambourcin. Chambourcin is sulphur sensitive so you can not use it on
> >> Chambourcin OR Norton.

>
> >> All together I have about 285 vines. *If I were not retired, I would have
> >> a VERY difficult time maintaining this many vines.

>
> >> Harvest time is here and I am fatigued with harvesting. *The Chardonnay
> >> produces a LOT of grapes (going to have to correct this next year)

>
> >> Paul

>
> >> > On Sep 28, 1:49*pm, jay > wrote:
> >> >> > No, they recommend rootstock though the ones they recommend are
> >> >> > different on that side of the state

>
> >> >> though the do say that the advantages of own routed vines are cost,
> >> >> and that there are easy methods of reproducing your vines by layering
> >> >> and other methods and have a uniform crop with little investment.....
> >> >> BUT you can always regraft new scions to whatever rootstock you have
> >> >> planted and replace your fuiting wood with any compatable vine.... but
> >> >> yes Bob I agree recovery would be easier and possibly quicker
> >> >> retraining new vigourous buds from self rooted vines.....I am not
> >> >> concerned with this where I live though I appreciate your
> >> >> contribution, thoughts on the subject and particularly the refrences
> >> >> you provided.

>
> >> >> WSU recommends rootstock as a preventive measure against disease and
> >> >> for increasing or decreasing vigor, drought tolerance and tolerance to
> >> >> salinity

>
> >> >> They don’t completely disagree with you Bob but they do recommend
> >> >> looking into the advantages of rootstock over the cost savings and of
> >> >> vineyard establishment,

>
> >> >> i did find out today that 101-14 is more drought tolerant and can
> >> >> ripen earlier than 3309 ...(maybe) according to one lecture, *does
> >> >> anyone know if this is documented?

>
> >> >> I started this thread seeking advice and I appreciate all
> >> >> contributions especially ones that are well thought out , referenced,
> >> >> from real personal experience that applies to the question at hand....I
> >> >> don't appreciate nor will I listen to people I think are more
> >> >> enthusiastic about their opinions than their research/or experience or
> >> >> the soundness of their advise....in this case I appreciate you ( BOB )
> >> >> providing research to support your opinions and respect your arguments
> >> >> because of it.... the ****ing match is just entertaining....and
> >> >> generally good for testing the strength on an Idea anyway

>
> >> >> ....but I would ask people in general to be careful about giving
> >> >> advise to those who ask without really knowing what you are talking
> >> >> about, there is nothing worse than *false profits and in some

>
> ...
>
> read more »


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Default Advise for Vineyard Establishment

"Vinifera needs to be on rootstock. Period."

The French own rooted for hundreds of years and they seemed to get
away with it. There are nurseries in WA that sell own rooted vinifera.
I bought some. WA doesn't have crown gall? Cold damage could involve
Crown gall but some freezes have nothing to do with it.



r On Sep 28, 10:54*pm, shbailey > wrote:
> On Sep 25, 12:48 am, jay > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Gentleman,
> > I am new to the board and was wondering if anyone, has any advise for
> > me.
> > I am currently in the military and deployed as usual, but will be
> > returning in February to a house I recently purchased in Yelm, Wa....
> > this spring I want to plant an experimental vineyard.
> > The soil at my site is Sandy Loam but I am not sure how deep before it
> > reaches the semipermeable sublayer that is all over the Pacific NW

>
> > I have currently ordered about 400 vines all reds, Regent, Pinot Noir
> > Precoce, 777, St Laurent, and Garanoir all on 3309 and 101-14 but I
> > can adjust m order through Jan.

>
> > I am currently wrestling with ; which clones to plant and how much,
> > vine spacing, methods of tilling/ riping the soil/ soil amendments

>
> > I was thinking of using a tight spacing maybe 3x6, and only tilling
> > the actual rows to leave the soil and covercrop between rows intact
> > but I am not sure how to break through the hard sublayer, I was
> > thinking of using an auger and just breaking up the layer under each
> > vine...

>
> > any thoughts?

>
> > Jason

>
> Jason,
>
> Vinifera needs to be on rootstock. Period. *It is not impossible that
> you might see freeze damage at some point, but you will without
> question eventually see phyloxerra to some degree. *Freeze damage to
> graft unions is usually manifested by crown gall infections. *You
> probably don't have the bacteria that causes it in your area.
> Phyloxerra don't thrive in very sandy soil, but they are all over the
> country. *Even if you avoided a heavy infection that killed your vines
> quickly, they will eventually cause enough damage to shorten the life
> of your plants. *If you grow hybrids, you might be OK own rooted,
> although nematodes are also an issue. *The guy at Hollywood Hills
> Vineyards knows more about Regent than anybody in the country,
> particularly in that area. *Listen to him regarding Regent (and Pinot
> Noir).
>
> Do be particular on the source of your rootstock. *A few years ago,
> there was a lot of rootstock sold that was infected with "black goo",
> which could be the cause of the dead Chardonnay that was mentioned.
>
> Make sure you carefully consider if 3 x 6 spacing is truly what you
> want. *Maybe that is what you have to do to get the number of vines
> you want on your available land, but it is tight. *Your effective
> clearance between rows will end up being around 4 feet, and that is if
> you keep everything trained really well. *I heard a talk by a vineyard
> consultant who is currently recommending 4 x 7 spacing with double
> trunks and single cane pruned (per trunk). *The short canes were used
> because cordons were considered a repository for disease organisms.
>
> Good Luck,
>
> Stephen


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Default Advise for Vineyard Establishment

wrote:

> "It is a 175 foot length of row. That is a LOT of wood chips. "
>
> LOL. Not really. . I have over 1200 feet of vineyard all mulched
> with wood chips. I do a little at a time. If you do 10 vines a day it
> would take you a couple weeks and you have all winter down there in
> tropical Maryland. I use a wheel barrel and chips are light. It's just
> like a walk in the park. Anyway, mulch 5 vines and see if you see any
> difference. Do you mow under the vines or do you let the grass grow?


mow and weed eat.

>
>
> On Sep 28, 9:36Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > "The things I would add is that certain varieties like Chambourcin
>> > are, in my
>> > opinion best planted (in my area) with root stock. Â*The variety, self
>> > rooted does not seem to have roots that go deep enough for water in
>> > times
>> > of draught. "

>>
>> > There you go. A reason to wood chip mulch! I grow own rooted
>> > Chambourcin. It wasn't doing very well in certain areas of the
>> > vineyard until I mulched the whole vineyard. Try it Paul, you'll like
>> > it. It does take work to move those chips in there but it'll be worth
>> > it and you'll see what I'm talking about.

>>
>> It is a 175 foot length of row. That is a LOT of wood chips.
>>
>> Right now, this vineyard is not cultivated. Â*It has grass in the isles
>> and under the vines. It is not showing draught stress. Â*We have had
>> PLENTY of water this year.
>>
>> I screwed up by spraying a small amount of sulphur in my spray mix and
>> the temps were not hot when I sprayed it but the leaf margins on the
>> Chambourcin are definately showing scorch. The Chambourcin also has what
>> appears to be Rupestris speckle OR, as one grower says it may be Ozone
>> damage. Â*Chambourcin is suppose to be an indicator of Ozone.
>>
>>
>>
>> > I don't like Seyval Blanc from the north east. Never had one that I
>> > liked but if you like that "grass" type wine style it probably is
>> > good. I LOVE Traminnette. Am growing some and is tough to kill .

>>
>> I made a Seyval Blanc last year that got rave reviews. Â*I think it has
>> the potential to being a good blending grape. Â*It is a prolific producer
>> and can be cropped quite heavily without affecting quality.
>>
>> I also love Traminnette. Â*I don't grow (no room left) any but I have a
>> source a few miles from me over in Northern Virginia. He gives me
>> commercial rates for the grapes since I used to work for a commercial
>> grower.
>>
>> The grower said "Do not cold soak because It can make the wine bitter"
>> but this has not been my experience. Â*Two years ago I cold soaked
>> overnight and the wine was terrific. Â*Last year, I did not cold soak
>> overnight and the aromatics were Â*almost absent. Â*Needless to say, I cold
>> soaked this year and I can already tell that the aromatics are there Â*in
>> full force.
>>
>> I also cold soaked overnight my Chardonnay and Voigner. Mainly it was
>> because of a logistics problem but I think it is going to be good. Â*I
>> have some Chardonnay left to harvest so I am going to do the
>> unmentionable and experiment by actually fermenting it on the skins. I am
>> going to harvest Thursday and I know the pH and TA are going to be
>> outside the range for a typical "White" so it is worth an experiment.
>>
>>
>>
>> > One other thing I think is good in a grape and Paul reminded me of it
>> > is cluster size. Harvesting large clusters is much more pleasant than
>> > harvesting many small ones. I have no idea how it would do in
>> > Washington.

>>
>> > Another thing I do yearly now is prune late do delay bud break. I was
>> > skeptical at first because I thought it was BS but it does delay it a
>> > lot.

>>
>> I may try it also this coming season.
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 28, 7:34Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> > wrote:
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Jay,

>>
>> >> > I give my opinion. That is it. That is what I think these boards are
>> >> > about. I always remind myself Â*that amateurs built the Ark and
>> >> > professionals built the Titanic. That being said here is my opinion
>> >> > on what you are doing.

>>
>> >> > Pinot Noir is the heartbreak grape. It requires alot of attention. I
>> >> > have no experience with it but I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot
>> >> > pole. The work most likely won't justify the time, money or the
>> >> > result. You will have to spray a lot.

>>
>> >> > I like hybrids. At first I didn't but I do now. You can grow them
>> >> > own rooted. I advise anyone starting a vineyard to grow them. They
>> >> > are less maintenance and if you don't do this for a living you want
>> >> > time to live your other life. There are many REALLY GOOD hybrids out
>> >> > there now so, as a hobby I don't recommend any vinifera.

>>
>> >> > 400 vines is a lot. I have 150. It'll take you AT LEAST 4 hrs to
>> >> > backpack spray 400 vines.

>>
>> >> > Leave room for a car or ATV in your rows. 400 vines I think is too
>> >> > much to backpack spray. You will find that eventually you'll be sick
>> >> > of spraying especially Pinot Noir. If I had to do it all over again
>> >> > I'd space my rows 10ft apart. I also would probably plant at 5 feet
>> >> > within rows. Â*It's the distance between rows that I think is the
>> >> > most important to allow you to move around.

>>
>> >> > Regent looks like a good grape. I didn't research any of the other
>> >> > ones but Regent sounds almost too good to be true.

>>
>> >> > Single wire High cordon is the least maintainance and easiest to
>> >> > prune. Requires less wires. I use it on all my vines.

>>
>> >> > Wood Chip mulch. .

>>
>> >> > This hobby will take more of your time then you think.

>>
>> >> Just to prove that I am not against every thing you say; I agree with
>> >> 90% of what you just posted.

>>
>> >> The things I would add is that certain varieties like Chambourcin are,
>> >> in my opinion best planted (in my area) with root stock. Â*The variety,
>> >> self rooted does not seem to have roots that go deep enough for water
>> >> in times of draught. Â*At least this is my experience and that of
>> >> others in the area. - perhaps I should mulch this one row :-)

>>
>> >> If I had room, I would plant the following hybrids which are well
>> >> suited to the area in which I live; Chardonnel, Traminette, Seyval
>> >> Blanc.

>>
>> >> I dislike high wire. Â*The reason I don't like it (and I do have three
>> >> rows of 25 vines each in it) are that it is very difficult to net. Â*If
>> >> birds are a problem in your area, this is a big consideration.

>>
>> >> The vines I do have on high wire are Chambourcin because of its eratic
>> >> growing behavior it is easier just to let them flop over from a high
>> >> wire cordon. Â*I also have a row of Norton which also favors downward
>> >> growth of shoots. Â*I have one row of Chardonnay that I am going to
>> >> convert to VSP because of the bird issue and the fact that Chardonnay
>> >> loves to grow vertical and is a relatively easy grape to trellis.

>>
>> >> I agree with doublesb on the Pinot Noir issue and also the row width
>> >> issue as well as his statement that it is going to take you a lot
>> >> longer than you think to maintain.

>>
>> >> I have two vineyards. Â*One is in my back yard and consist of 110 vines
>> >> of about equal numbers of Merlot, Cabernet Franc and Cabernet
>> >> Sauvignon.

>>
>> >> I recently inherited a friends quarter acre vineyard (175 vines) out
>> >> in the country because he had to move to town because of health
>> >> reasons. The new owners did not want to maintain the vineyard, did not
>> >> want wine, they just wanted someone to maintain the vineyard and make
>> >> it look nice (works for me)

>>
>> >> Out there (Pleasant Valley, MD) I am growing Nebiollo (don't like
>> >> growing this grape even though it is my first year of managing this
>> >> vineyard - low producer and late ripening); Chardonnay (75 vines) I
>> >> like growing this variety because it grows upright and is a charm to
>> >> grow, one row of Voigner (seems to be doing ok) one row of Norton,
>> >> also known as Cynthiana (hate this grape - requires high wire and
>> >> fruit ripens VERY late and has small clusters with high pH and high
>> >> TA) and one row of self rooted Chambourcin. Chambourcin is sulphur
>> >> sensitive so you can not use it on Chambourcin OR Norton.

>>
>> >> All together I have about 285 vines. Â*If I were not retired, I would
>> >> have a VERY difficult time maintaining this many vines.

>>
>> >> Harvest time is here and I am fatigued with harvesting. Â*The
>> >> Chardonnay produces a LOT of grapes (going to have to correct this
>> >> next year)

>>
>> >> Paul

>>
>> >> > On Sep 28, 1:49Â*pm, jay > wrote:
>> >> >> > No, they recommend rootstock though the ones they recommend are
>> >> >> > different on that side of the state

>>
>> >> >> though the do say that the advantages of own routed vines are cost,
>> >> >> and that there are easy methods of reproducing your vines by
>> >> >> layering and other methods and have a uniform crop with little
>> >> >> investment.... BUT you can always regraft new scions to whatever
>> >> >> rootstock you have planted and replace your fuiting wood with any
>> >> >> compatable vine.... but yes Bob I agree recovery would be easier
>> >> >> and possibly quicker retraining new vigourous buds from self rooted
>> >> >> vines.....I am not concerned with this where I live though I
>> >> >> appreciate your contribution, thoughts on the subject and
>> >> >> particularly the refrences you provided.

>>
>> >> >> WSU recommends rootstock as a preventive measure against disease
>> >> >> and for increasing or decreasing vigor, drought tolerance and
>> >> >> tolerance to salinity

>>
>> >> >> They dont completely disagree with you Bob but they do recommend
>> >> >> looking into the advantages of rootstock over the cost savings and
>> >> >> of vineyard establishment,

>>
>> >> >> i did find out today that 101-14 is more drought tolerant and can
>> >> >> ripen earlier than 3309 ...(maybe) according to one lecture, Â*does
>> >> >> anyone know if this is documented?

>>
>> >> >> I started this thread seeking advice and I appreciate all
>> >> >> contributions especially ones that are well thought out ,
>> >> >> referenced, from real personal experience that applies to the
>> >> >> question at hand...I don't appreciate nor will I listen to people I
>> >> >> think are more enthusiastic about their opinions than their
>> >> >> research/or experience or the soundness of their advise....in this
>> >> >> case I appreciate you ( BOB ) providing research to support your
>> >> >> opinions and respect your arguments because of it.... the ****ing
>> >> >> match is just entertaining....and generally good for testing the
>> >> >> strength on an Idea anyway

>>
>> >> >> ....but I would ask people in general to be careful about giving
>> >> >> advise to those who ask without really knowing what you are talking
>> >> >> about, there is nothing worse than Â*false profits and in some

>>
>> ...
>>
>> read more »


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Posts: 287
Default Advise for Vineyard Establishment

"weed eat"

Ever girdle a vine? Now there's a good reason to own root vines.



On Sep 29, 8:10*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
wrote:
> wrote:
> > "It is a 175 foot length of row. That is a LOT of wood chips. "

>
> > LOL. Not really. . I have over 1200 feet of vineyard all mulched
> > with wood chips. I do a little at a time. If you do 10 vines a day it
> > would take you a couple weeks and you have all winter down there in
> > tropical Maryland. I use a wheel barrel and chips are light. It's just
> > like a walk in the park. Anyway, mulch 5 vines and see if you see any
> > difference. Do you mow under the vines or do you let the grass grow?

>
> mow and weed eat.
>
>
>
> > *On Sep 28, 9:36*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > "The things I would add is that certain varieties like Chambourcin
> >> > are, in my
> >> > opinion best planted (in my area) with root stock. *The variety, self
> >> > rooted does not seem to have roots that go deep enough for water in
> >> > times
> >> > of draught. "

>
> >> > There you go. A reason to wood chip mulch! I grow own rooted
> >> > Chambourcin. It wasn't doing very well in certain areas of the
> >> > vineyard until I mulched the whole vineyard. Try it Paul, you'll like
> >> > it. It does take work to move those chips in there but it'll be worth
> >> > it and you'll see what I'm talking about.

>
> >> It is a 175 foot length of row. That is a LOT of wood chips.

>
> >> Right now, this vineyard is not cultivated. *It has grass in the isles
> >> and under the vines. It is not showing draught stress. *We have had
> >> PLENTY of water this year.

>
> >> I screwed up by spraying a small amount of sulphur in my spray mix and
> >> the temps were not hot when I sprayed it but the leaf margins on the
> >> Chambourcin are definately showing scorch. The Chambourcin also has what
> >> appears to be Rupestris speckle OR, as one grower says it may be Ozone
> >> damage. *Chambourcin is suppose to be an indicator of Ozone.

>
> >> > I don't like Seyval Blanc from the north east. Never had one that I
> >> > liked but if you like that "grass" type wine style it probably is
> >> > good. I LOVE Traminnette. Am growing some and is tough to kill .

>
> >> I made a Seyval Blanc last year that got rave reviews. *I think it has
> >> the potential to being a good blending grape. *It is a prolific producer
> >> and can be cropped quite heavily without affecting quality.

>
> >> I also love Traminnette. *I don't grow (no room left) any but I have a
> >> source a few miles from me over in Northern Virginia. He gives me
> >> commercial rates for the grapes since I used to work for a commercial
> >> grower.

>
> >> The grower said "Do not cold soak because It can make the wine bitter"
> >> but this has not been my experience. *Two years ago I cold soaked
> >> overnight and the wine was terrific. *Last year, I did not cold soak
> >> overnight and the aromatics were *almost absent. *Needless to say, I cold
> >> soaked this year and I can already tell that the aromatics are there *in
> >> full force.

>
> >> I also cold soaked overnight my Chardonnay and Voigner. Mainly it was
> >> because of a logistics problem but I think it is going to be good. *I
> >> have some Chardonnay left to harvest so I am going to do the
> >> unmentionable and experiment by actually fermenting it on the skins. I am
> >> going to harvest Thursday and I know the pH and TA are going to be
> >> outside the range for a typical "White" so it is worth an experiment.

>
> >> > One other thing I think is good in a grape and Paul reminded me of it
> >> > is cluster size. Harvesting large clusters is much more pleasant than
> >> > harvesting many small ones. I have no idea how it would do in
> >> > Washington.

>
> >> > Another thing I do yearly now is prune late do delay bud break. I was
> >> > skeptical at first because I thought it was BS but it does delay it a
> >> > lot.

>
> >> I may try it also this coming season.

>
> >> > On Sep 28, 7:34*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Jay,

>
> >> >> > I give my opinion. That is it. That is what I think these boards are
> >> >> > about. I always remind myself *that amateurs built the Ark and
> >> >> > professionals built the Titanic. That being said here is my opinion
> >> >> > on what you are doing.

>
> >> >> > Pinot Noir is the heartbreak grape. It requires alot of attention.. I
> >> >> > have no experience with it but I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot
> >> >> > pole. The work most likely won't justify the time, money or the
> >> >> > result. You will have to spray a lot.

>
> >> >> > I like hybrids. At first I didn't but I do now. You can grow them
> >> >> > own rooted. I advise anyone starting a vineyard to grow them. They
> >> >> > are less maintenance and if you don't do this for a living you want
> >> >> > time to live your other life. There are many REALLY GOOD hybrids out
> >> >> > there now so, as a hobby I don't recommend any vinifera.

>
> >> >> > 400 vines is a lot. I have 150. It'll take you AT LEAST 4 hrs to
> >> >> > backpack spray 400 vines.

>
> >> >> > Leave room for a car or ATV in your rows. 400 vines I think is too
> >> >> > much to backpack spray. You will find that eventually you'll be sick
> >> >> > of spraying especially Pinot Noir. If I had to do it all over again
> >> >> > I'd space my rows 10ft apart. I also would probably plant at 5 feet
> >> >> > within rows. *It's the distance between rows that I think is the
> >> >> > most important to allow you to move around.

>
> >> >> > Regent looks like a good grape. I didn't research any of the other
> >> >> > ones but Regent sounds almost too good to be true.

>
> >> >> > Single wire High cordon is the least maintainance and easiest to
> >> >> > prune. Requires less wires. I use it on all my vines.

>
> >> >> > Wood Chip mulch. .

>
> >> >> > This hobby will take more of your time then you think.

>
> >> >> Just to prove that I am not against every thing you say; I agree with
> >> >> 90% of what you just posted.

>
> >> >> The things I would add is that certain varieties like Chambourcin are,
> >> >> in my opinion best planted (in my area) with root stock. *The variety,
> >> >> self rooted does not seem to have roots that go deep enough for water
> >> >> in times of draught. *At least this is my experience and that of
> >> >> others in the area. - perhaps I should mulch this one row :-)

>
> >> >> If I had room, I would plant the following hybrids which are well
> >> >> suited to the area in which I live; Chardonnel, Traminette, Seyval
> >> >> Blanc.

>
> >> >> I dislike high wire. *The reason I don't like it (and I do have three
> >> >> rows of 25 vines each in it) are that it is very difficult to net. *If
> >> >> birds are a problem in your area, this is a big consideration.

>
> >> >> The vines I do have on high wire are Chambourcin because of its eratic
> >> >> growing behavior it is easier just to let them flop over from a high
> >> >> wire cordon. *I also have a row of Norton which also favors downward
> >> >> growth of shoots. *I have one row of Chardonnay that I am going to
> >> >> convert to VSP because of the bird issue and the fact that Chardonnay
> >> >> loves to grow vertical and is a relatively easy grape to trellis.

>
> >> >> I agree with doublesb on the Pinot Noir issue and also the row width
> >> >> issue as well as his statement that it is going to take you a lot
> >> >> longer than you think to maintain.

>
> >> >> I have two vineyards. *One is in my back yard and consist of 110 vines
> >> >> of about equal numbers of Merlot, Cabernet Franc and Cabernet
> >> >> Sauvignon.

>
> >> >> I recently inherited a friends quarter acre vineyard (175 vines) out
> >> >> in the country because he had to move to town because of health
> >> >> reasons. The new owners did not want to maintain the vineyard, did not
> >> >> want wine, they just wanted someone to maintain the vineyard and make
> >> >> it look nice (works for me)

>
> >> >> Out there (Pleasant Valley, MD) I am growing Nebiollo (don't like
> >> >> growing this grape even though it is my first year of managing this
> >> >> vineyard - low producer and late ripening); Chardonnay (75 vines) I
> >> >> like growing this variety because it grows upright and is a charm to
> >> >> grow, one row of Voigner (seems to be doing ok) one row of Norton,
> >> >> also known as Cynthiana (hate this grape - requires high wire and
> >> >> fruit ripens VERY late and has small clusters with high pH and high
> >> >> TA) and one row of self rooted Chambourcin. Chambourcin is sulphur
> >> >> sensitive so you can not use it on Chambourcin OR Norton.

>
> >> >> All together I have about 285 vines. *If I were not retired, I would
> >> >> have a VERY difficult time maintaining this many vines.

>
> >> >> Harvest time is here and I am fatigued with harvesting. *The
> >> >> Chardonnay produces a LOT of grapes (going to have to correct this
> >> >> next year)

>
> >> >> Paul

>
> >> >> > On Sep 28, 1:49*pm, jay > wrote:
> >> >> >> > No, they recommend rootstock though the ones they recommend are
> >> >> >> > different on that side of the state

>
> >> >> >> though the do say that the advantages of own routed vines are cost,
> >> >> >> and that there are easy methods of reproducing your vines by
> >> >> >> layering and other methods and have a uniform crop with little
> >> >> >> investment.... BUT you can always regraft new scions to whatever
> >> >> >> rootstock you have planted and replace your fuiting wood with any
> >> >> >> compatable vine.... but yes Bob I agree recovery would be easier
> >> >> >> and possibly quicker retraining new vigourous buds from self rooted
> >> >> >> vines.....I am not concerned with this where I live though I
> >> >> >> appreciate your contribution, thoughts on the subject and
> >> >> >> particularly the refrences you provided.

>
> >> >> >> WSU recommends rootstock as a preventive measure against disease
> >> >> >> and for increasing or decreasing vigor, drought tolerance and
> >> >> >> tolerance to salinity

>
> >> >> >> They don’t completely disagree with you Bob but they do recommend
> >> >> >> looking into the advantages of rootstock over the cost savings

>
> ...
>
> read more »




  #48 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Default Advise for Vineyard Establishment

"Nope, even your preferred expert, Lon Romboubough does not mention
wood chip
mulch. He does mention (page 63) a study done by Cornell University
which
showed LOWERED brix levels using mulch. There goes your two brix
increase
theory - shot down by your own expert. "

Paul,

Not trying to start another arguement here but what does page 61 of
The Grape Grower say about Mychorhizal fungus and phyloxerra? I don't
have the book.

On Sep 28, 11:01*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
wrote:
> wrote:
> > Lets see Paul,

>
> > You were wrong about wood chips,

>
> Nope, even your preferred expert, Lon Romboubough does not mention wood chip
> mulch. *He does mention (page 63) a study done by Cornell University which
> showed LOWERED brix levels using mulch. *There goes your two brix increase
> theory - shot down by your own expert.
>
> > wrong about laterals,

>
> Not hardly, although laterals can contribute they can also be detrimental in
> an overly vigorous vineyard and promote poor air circulation and hence
> disease. *The OP was referencing his overly vigorous vineyard.
>
> > wrong about *
> > bees,

>
> I remember saying that bees are attracted to damaged fruit such as bird
> pecks or other predators. *Do you disagree with this?
>
> > wrong about Brute trash cans ( most are NSF #2, food grade) ,

>
> Not all Rubbermaid Brute trash cans are food grade or suitable for
> fermenting wine.
>
> This was information I received FROM THE MANUFACTURER and was about a
> particular Rubbermaid Trash can(s) that I was considering buying.
>
> If you want to take the risk and poisin yourself, be my guest. *For all
> others, I suggest you call the manufacturer and ask specifically if the
> particular Brute Trash can you are considering buying is suitable for
> fermenting wine. There are other safer options available.
>
> > wrong about phyloxera being a bigger threat than cold as proven by
> > "The perfect freeze" and you contradict *every other apect of
> > viticulture according to Lon Rombough.

>
> Lon Rombough is not against root stock. *I suggest you read pages 169-73
> There are certain rootstocks that make certain varieties MORE winter hardy.
> In addition you can read the other benefits of rootstock if you bother to
> read your source. *His only criticism to rootstock vines is their
> compartively higher cost than self rooted. This increased cost can be
> recouped from other benefits.
>
> He even includes a list of books on rootstocks in the Bibliography.
> If you reference an "expert" it would serve you well to actually read what
> the "expert" says.
>
> > Now, you have given Jay advise
> > to contact the local viticulture gurus and they agree with me! How
> > much more wrong could you be?

>
> I think Jay has a lot more on the ball and knows how to research the facts
> and not listen to self proclaimed experts like yourself.
>
>
>
> >> > of them I grow and where I live.

>
> >> This is TOTAL nonesense and anyone following this thread realizes that
> >> you are NOT contributing ANYTHING useful.

>
> >> IF you are happy doing what you are doing, that is fine;

>
> >> BUT:

>
> >> to state to OTHERS that professional wine growers are not living in the
> >> real world, that nurseries are motivated by money only, that the French
> >> do not know anything about grape growing, that self rooted is the only
> >> way to go, that fermenting in NON FDA APPROVED containers is just fine,
> >> that mulch is the way to go for everyone, and that you alone have the
> >> secret to success and all others are motived by money is pure nonesense.

>
> >> PLEASE, continue to do what makes you happy * B U T * realize that you
> >> are expressing an OPINION based on YOUR experience in a LIMITED
> >> environment in what you perceive as being the WHOLE world of viticulture.

>
> >> On the other hand I encourage the following:

>
> >> I encourage all who may read this thread and are interested in growing
> >> wine grapes to do the following:

>
> >> Research the availabel literature

>
> >> Contact the Agriculture Extension agent in the area they live

>
> >> Contact PROFESSIONAL growers in their area to obtain information as to
> >> varieties and how to grow these varieties.

>
> >> Join a growers association in their area, especially those that have
> >> educational seminars.

>
> >> If you wish to engage in arguementation, please spend your time in other
> >> groups who relish this sort of thing, ie, computer languages or
> >> programming or religion,etc.

>
> >> > You on the other hand have so many
> >> > conditions, your flow chart for growing grapes points in all different
> >> > directions with no end to the logic. I am endorsing OWN ROOTED VINES..
> >> > They are simple and most of the times have just as much resistance to
> >> > phyloxera as root stock. In fact, according to the article below root
> >> > stock is no guarantee either. What I am also saying is that a vine
> >> > will die of cold damage before it ever will die from phyloxera in a
> >> > cold climate like Washington.

>
> >>http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...cks/nyrootstoc....

>
> >> > Sep 27, 7:45*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Don't worry Paul, I have a feeling Maryland will be shocked after
> >> >> > the coming winter. SOmetimes it doesn't matter where you live.

>
> >> >> You make no sense.
> >> >> Are you taking your meds?

>
> >> >> > On Sep 27, 10:26*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> > Check this out.
> >> >> >> >http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?...=1620&issue=59

>
> >> >> >> > Notice the statement:
> >> >> >> > "One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures
> >> >> >> > rarely drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic
> >> >> >> > winter freezes that devastate eastern Washington State vineyards,
> >> >> >> > on average, every seven to ten years.

>
> >> >> >> > Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would think a
> >> >> >> > climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap right
> >> >> >> > after a warm spell. Something like this one.

>
> >>http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...%20geneva%2003....

>
> >> >> >> > Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you do..
> >> >> >> > When all the commercial growers are crying in their milk you
> >> >> >> > could be laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery loves
> >> >> >> > company" crowd. Personally, My vines are still growing and there
> >> >> >> > is a vineyard not far from here that grew chardonnay on C3309.
> >> >> >> > Well, the chardonay is all dead.

>
> >> >> >> Where is this vineyard and how far is it from you?
> >> >> >> Where do you live? *What varieties are you growing? *How many vines
> >> >> >> do you have?

>
> >> >> >> > On Sep 26, 11:19*pm, jay > wrote:
> >> >> >> >> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
> >> >> >> >> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget
> >> >> >> >> Sound, what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts
> >> >> >> >> just around harvest so some years you might be ok others and
> >> >> >> >> early frost or rains can damage your crop. The reason I am going
> >> >> >> >> to use rootstock is that WSU trials have shown rootstock ripens
> >> >> >> >> the clones I have chosen 1-2 weeks earlier by redusing vine
> >> >> >> >> vigor, the grapes also show more complex flavor, (Moultan et al
> >> >> >> >> ) on top of the fact that losing years worth of work when I go
> >> >> >> >> wine tasting in Oregon and kick off Oregon vineyard dirt in my
> >> >> >> >> gravel driveway only to end up in my vineyard and killing my
> >> >> >> >> self rooted vinefera is simple not a course of action I will
> >> >> >> >> take period.


  #49 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Posts: 151
Default Advise for Vineyard Establishment

wrote:

> "Nope, even your preferred expert, Lon Romboubough does not mention
> wood chip
> mulch. He does mention (page 63) a study done by Cornell University
> which
> showed LOWERED brix levels using mulch. There goes your two brix
> increase
> theory - shot down by your own expert. "
>
> Paul,
>
> Not trying to start another arguement here but what does page 61 of
> The Grape Grower say about Mychorhizal fungus and phyloxerra? I don't
> have the book.


On page 61 he states:

"An effect of mychorhizal fungus fungi that could bear on the control of
phylloxera is the ability of the fungi to stimulate root
development." .... "Since phylloxera harms the vines by killing or stunting
roots they feed on, stimulating the vine to produce many new roots could
help offset the harm of these sucking insects."

He discusses the use of compost to increase Mychorhizal Fungus but I have
not found a reference to mulch or bark mulch to do this.

On page 231 he discusses winter protection in zones 4 or colder and
mentions "laying them on the ground, whether to be covered with mulch or to
be pinned down to allow snow to cover and insulate them."

In discussing phylloxera he states on page 128 that "this pest prefers
heavy, clay soils. It is not a pest on sandy soils."

>
> On Sep 28, 11:01Â*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > Lets see Paul,

>>
>> > You were wrong about wood chips,

>>
>> Nope, even your preferred expert, Lon Romboubough does not mention wood
>> chip mulch. Â*He does mention (page 63) a study done by Cornell University
>> which showed LOWERED brix levels using mulch. Â*There goes your two brix
>> increase theory - shot down by your own expert.
>>
>> > wrong about laterals,

>>
>> Not hardly, although laterals can contribute they can also be detrimental
>> in an overly vigorous vineyard and promote poor air circulation and hence
>> disease. Â*The OP was referencing his overly vigorous vineyard.
>>
>> > wrong about
>> > bees,

>>
>> I remember saying that bees are attracted to damaged fruit such as bird
>> pecks or other predators. Â*Do you disagree with this?
>>
>> > wrong about Brute trash cans ( most are NSF #2, food grade) ,

>>
>> Not all Rubbermaid Brute trash cans are food grade or suitable for
>> fermenting wine.
>>
>> This was information I received FROM THE MANUFACTURER and was about a
>> particular Rubbermaid Trash can(s) that I was considering buying.
>>
>> If you want to take the risk and poisin yourself, be my guest. Â*For all
>> others, I suggest you call the manufacturer and ask specifically if the
>> particular Brute Trash can you are considering buying is suitable for
>> fermenting wine. There are other safer options available.
>>
>> > wrong about phyloxera being a bigger threat than cold as proven by
>> > "The perfect freeze" and you contradict Â*every other apect of
>> > viticulture according to Lon Rombough.

>>
>> Lon Rombough is not against root stock. Â*I suggest you read pages 169-73
>> There are certain rootstocks that make certain varieties MORE winter
>> hardy. In addition you can read the other benefits of rootstock if you
>> bother to read your source. Â*His only criticism to rootstock vines is
>> their compartively higher cost than self rooted. This increased cost can
>> be recouped from other benefits.
>>
>> He even includes a list of books on rootstocks in the Bibliography.
>> If you reference an "expert" it would serve you well to actually read
>> what the "expert" says.
>>
>> > Now, you have given Jay advise
>> > to contact the local viticulture gurus and they agree with me! How
>> > much more wrong could you be?

>>
>> I think Jay has a lot more on the ball and knows how to research the
>> facts and not listen to self proclaimed experts like yourself.
>>
>>
>>
>> >> > of them I grow and where I live.

>>
>> >> This is TOTAL nonesense and anyone following this thread realizes that
>> >> you are NOT contributing ANYTHING useful.

>>
>> >> IF you are happy doing what you are doing, that is fine;

>>
>> >> BUT:

>>
>> >> to state to OTHERS that professional wine growers are not living in
>> >> the real world, that nurseries are motivated by money only, that the
>> >> French do not know anything about grape growing, that self rooted is
>> >> the only way to go, that fermenting in NON FDA APPROVED containers is
>> >> just fine, that mulch is the way to go for everyone, and that you
>> >> alone have the secret to success and all others are motived by money
>> >> is pure nonesense.

>>
>> >> PLEASE, continue to do what makes you happy Â* B U T Â* realize that you
>> >> are expressing an OPINION based on YOUR experience in a LIMITED
>> >> environment in what you perceive as being the WHOLE world of
>> >> viticulture.

>>
>> >> On the other hand I encourage the following:

>>
>> >> I encourage all who may read this thread and are interested in growing
>> >> wine grapes to do the following:

>>
>> >> Research the availabel literature

>>
>> >> Contact the Agriculture Extension agent in the area they live

>>
>> >> Contact PROFESSIONAL growers in their area to obtain information as to
>> >> varieties and how to grow these varieties.

>>
>> >> Join a growers association in their area, especially those that have
>> >> educational seminars.

>>
>> >> If you wish to engage in arguementation, please spend your time in
>> >> other groups who relish this sort of thing, ie, computer languages or
>> >> programming or religion,etc.

>>
>> >> > You on the other hand have so many
>> >> > conditions, your flow chart for growing grapes points in all
>> >> > different directions with no end to the logic. I am endorsing OWN
>> >> > ROOTED VINES. They are simple and most of the times have just as
>> >> > much resistance to phyloxera as root stock. In fact, according to
>> >> > the article below root stock is no guarantee either. What I am also
>> >> > saying is that a vine will die of cold damage before it ever will
>> >> > die from phyloxera in a cold climate like Washington.

>>
>>
>>
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...cks/nyrootstoc...
>>
>> >> > Sep 27, 7:45Â*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Don't worry Paul, I have a feeling Maryland will be shocked after
>> >> >> > the coming winter. SOmetimes it doesn't matter where you live.

>>
>> >> >> You make no sense.
>> >> >> Are you taking your meds?

>>
>> >> >> > On Sep 27, 10:26Â*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> > Check this out.
>> >> >> >> >http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?...=1620&issue=59

>>
>> >> >> >> > Notice the statement:
>> >> >> >> > "One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures
>> >> >> >> > rarely drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic
>> >> >> >> > winter freezes that devastate eastern Washington State
>> >> >> >> > vineyards, on average, every seven to ten years.

>>
>> >> >> >> > Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would
>> >> >> >> > think a climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap
>> >> >> >> > right after a warm spell. Something like this one.

>>
>>
>>http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...%20geneva%2003...
>>
>> >> >> >> > Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you
>> >> >> >> > do. When all the commercial growers are crying in their milk
>> >> >> >> > you could be laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery
>> >> >> >> > loves company" crowd. Personally, My vines are still growing
>> >> >> >> > and there is a vineyard not far from here that grew chardonnay
>> >> >> >> > on C3309. Well, the chardonay is all dead.

>>
>> >> >> >> Where is this vineyard and how far is it from you?
>> >> >> >> Where do you live? Â*What varieties are you growing? Â*How many
>> >> >> >> vines do you have?

>>
>> >> >> >> > On Sep 26, 11:19Â*pm, jay > wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
>> >> >> >> >> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget
>> >> >> >> >> Sound, what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts
>> >> >> >> >> just around harvest so some years you might be ok others and
>> >> >> >> >> early frost or rains can damage your crop. The reason I am
>> >> >> >> >> going to use rootstock is that WSU trials have shown
>> >> >> >> >> rootstock ripens the clones I have chosen 1-2 weeks earlier
>> >> >> >> >> by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also show more complex
>> >> >> >> >> flavor, (Moultan et al ) on top of the fact that losing years
>> >> >> >> >> worth of work when I go wine tasting in Oregon and kick off
>> >> >> >> >> Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel driveway only to end up in
>> >> >> >> >> my vineyard and killing my self rooted vinefera is simple not
>> >> >> >> >> a course of action I will take period.


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Default Advise for Vineyard Establishment

Shbailey posted this a few threads ago:

"I emailed Lon Rombough, the author of "The Grape Grower - A Guide to
Organic Viticulture" about the subject of mulch. Here is his reply:

"The type of mulch makes a difference. Wood chips are a lot different
than chipped tree prunings, such as tree services produce. Chipped
pruning material is a mix of chip/chunk sizes and contains leaf matter
and ramial wood (small twigs). Such material has enough nitrogen to
keep it from taking N from the soil, but enough large material that it
decomposes slowly when used as mulch. This is a lot different than
using straight wood chips, which DO take N from the soil and can cake
on the soil. Want proof? Pile up chipped prunings and they will
heat like compost and break down to a dark humus-like material in a
matter of weeks. Wood chips need lots of nitrogen and moisture added
to compost anywhere near that way.
In the vineyard such chipped prunings will last two to three years as
mulch. They provide the humic acids that soil flora needs and promote
more even levels of moisture and nutrients.
Granted, results will vary with different soils, and it's not that
easy to get enough chipped tree prunings, but results are favorable in
most conditions.
All I can say is to try it on an area of the vineyard and see.
Anything that helps the life of the soil will aid the vines in the
long run.
-Lon Rombough

NEW grape pruning video: http://www.bunchgrapes.com/dvd.html View a
short, low resolution clip he http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q58zFY0B1M
Grapes, writing, consulting, my book, The Grape Grower, at
http://www.bunchgrapes.com Winner of the Garden Writers Association
"Best Talent in Writing" award for 2003."

and in response to a follow up question about mulch compounding issues
with excessive vigor:

"That depends some on the soil. Generally vines will grow better
with mulch because moisture stays more constant in the soil. Without
mulch moisture fluctuates more, which will stress and slow vines more
than constant or gradually decreasing moisture.
-Lon"

In "The Grape Grower", Lon references a Cornell study where the best
results for both moisture retention and grape yield/sugar was from
planting rye in the fall, which was killed by Roundup in the spring
and left on the ground as a mulch. "


Well, you know my experiences with wood chips. It doesn't matter and
obviously Lon has no experience with them and I have more than he
does. I will tell everyone for the umpteenth time that wood chips
produce mychorrhizal fungus and earthworms while regulating moisture.
The key to the wood chips is the good fungus that it produces along
with all the other benefits.



On Sep 29, 10:56*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
wrote:
> wrote:
> > "Nope, even your preferred expert, Lon Romboubough does not mention
> > wood chip
> > mulch. *He does mention (page 63) a study done by Cornell University
> > which
> > showed LOWERED brix levels using mulch. *There goes your two brix
> > increase
> > theory - shot down by your own expert. "

>
> > Paul,

>
> > Not trying to start another arguement here but what does page 61 of
> > The Grape Grower say about Mychorhizal fungus and phyloxerra? I don't
> > have the book.

>
> On page 61 he states:
>
> "An effect of mychorhizal fungus fungi that could bear on the control of
> phylloxera is the ability of the fungi to stimulate root
> development." .... "Since phylloxera harms the vines by killing or stunting
> roots they feed on, stimulating the vine to produce many new roots could
> help offset the harm of these sucking insects."
>
> He discusses the use of compost to increase Mychorhizal Fungus but I have
> not found a reference to mulch or bark mulch to do this.
>
> On page 231 he discusses winter protection in zones 4 or colder and
> mentions "laying them on the ground, whether to be covered with mulch or to
> be pinned down to allow snow to cover and insulate them."
>
> In discussing phylloxera he states on page 128 that "this pest prefers
> heavy, clay soils. *It is not a pest on sandy soils."
>
>
>
> > On Sep 28, 11:01*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > Lets see Paul,

>
> >> > You were wrong about wood chips,

>
> >> Nope, even your preferred expert, Lon Romboubough does not mention wood
> >> chip mulch. *He does mention (page 63) a study done by Cornell University
> >> which showed LOWERED brix levels using mulch. *There goes your two brix
> >> increase theory - shot down by your own expert.

>
> >> > wrong about laterals,

>
> >> Not hardly, although laterals can contribute they can also be detrimental
> >> in an overly vigorous vineyard and promote poor air circulation and hence
> >> disease. *The OP was referencing his overly vigorous vineyard.

>
> >> > wrong about
> >> > bees,

>
> >> I remember saying that bees are attracted to damaged fruit such as bird
> >> pecks or other predators. *Do you disagree with this?

>
> >> > wrong about Brute trash cans ( most are NSF #2, food grade) ,

>
> >> Not all Rubbermaid Brute trash cans are food grade or suitable for
> >> fermenting wine.

>
> >> This was information I received FROM THE MANUFACTURER and was about a
> >> particular Rubbermaid Trash can(s) that I was considering buying.

>
> >> If you want to take the risk and poisin yourself, be my guest. *For all
> >> others, I suggest you call the manufacturer and ask specifically if the
> >> particular Brute Trash can you are considering buying is suitable for
> >> fermenting wine. There are other safer options available.

>
> >> > wrong about phyloxera being a bigger threat than cold as proven by
> >> > "The perfect freeze" and you contradict *every other apect of
> >> > viticulture according to Lon Rombough.

>
> >> Lon Rombough is not against root stock. *I suggest you read pages 169-73
> >> There are certain rootstocks that make certain varieties MORE winter
> >> hardy. In addition you can read the other benefits of rootstock if you
> >> bother to read your source. *His only criticism to rootstock vines is
> >> their compartively higher cost than self rooted. This increased cost can
> >> be recouped from other benefits.

>
> >> He even includes a list of books on rootstocks in the Bibliography.
> >> If you reference an "expert" it would serve you well to actually read
> >> what the "expert" says.

>
> >> > Now, you have given Jay advise
> >> > to contact the local viticulture gurus and they agree with me! How
> >> > much more wrong could you be?

>
> >> I think Jay has a lot more on the ball and knows how to research the
> >> facts and not listen to self proclaimed experts like yourself.

>
> >> >> > of them I grow and where I live.

>
> >> >> This is TOTAL nonesense and anyone following this thread realizes that
> >> >> you are NOT contributing ANYTHING useful.

>
> >> >> IF you are happy doing what you are doing, that is fine;

>
> >> >> BUT:

>
> >> >> to state to OTHERS that professional wine growers are not living in
> >> >> the real world, that nurseries are motivated by money only, that the
> >> >> French do not know anything about grape growing, that self rooted is
> >> >> the only way to go, that fermenting in NON FDA APPROVED containers is
> >> >> just fine, that mulch is the way to go for everyone, and that you
> >> >> alone have the secret to success and all others are motived by money
> >> >> is pure nonesense.

>
> >> >> PLEASE, continue to do what makes you happy * B U T * realize that you
> >> >> are expressing an OPINION based on YOUR experience in a LIMITED
> >> >> environment in what you perceive as being the WHOLE world of
> >> >> viticulture.

>
> >> >> On the other hand I encourage the following:

>
> >> >> I encourage all who may read this thread and are interested in growing
> >> >> wine grapes to do the following:

>
> >> >> Research the availabel literature

>
> >> >> Contact the Agriculture Extension agent in the area they live

>
> >> >> Contact PROFESSIONAL growers in their area to obtain information as to
> >> >> varieties and how to grow these varieties.

>
> >> >> Join a growers association in their area, especially those that have
> >> >> educational seminars.

>
> >> >> If you wish to engage in arguementation, please spend your time in
> >> >> other groups who relish this sort of thing, ie, computer languages or
> >> >> programming or religion,etc.

>
> >> >> > You on the other hand have so many
> >> >> > conditions, your flow chart for growing grapes points in all
> >> >> > different directions with no end to the logic. I am endorsing OWN
> >> >> > ROOTED VINES. They are simple and most of the times have just as
> >> >> > much resistance to phyloxera as root stock. In fact, according to
> >> >> > the article below root stock is no guarantee either. What I am also
> >> >> > saying is that a vine will die of cold damage before it ever will
> >> >> > die from phyloxera in a cold climate like Washington.

>
> >>http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...cks/nyrootstoc....

>
> >> >> > Sep 27, 7:45*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> > Don't worry Paul, I have a feeling Maryland will be shocked after
> >> >> >> > the coming winter. SOmetimes it doesn't matter where you live.

>
> >> >> >> You make no sense.
> >> >> >> Are you taking your meds?

>
> >> >> >> > On Sep 27, 10:26*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> >> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >> > Check this out.
> >> >> >> >> >http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?...=1620&issue=59

>
> >> >> >> >> > Notice the statement:
> >> >> >> >> > "One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures
> >> >> >> >> > rarely drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic
> >> >> >> >> > winter freezes that devastate eastern Washington State
> >> >> >> >> > vineyards, on average, every seven to ten years.

>
> >> >> >> >> > Notice the word "rarely". It doesn't say "never". I would
> >> >> >> >> > think a climate like Puget Sound would be ripe for a cold snap
> >> >> >> >> > right after a warm spell. Something like this one.

>
> >>http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...%20geneva%2003....

>
> >> >> >> >> > Anyway, You can't ever say you didn't know, because now you
> >> >> >> >> > do. When all the commercial growers are crying in their milk
> >> >> >> >> > you could be laughing but instead you'll be in the "misery
> >> >> >> >> > loves company" crowd. Personally, My vines are still growing
> >> >> >> >> > and there is a vineyard not far from here that grew chardonnay
> >> >> >> >> > on C3309. Well, the chardonay is all dead.

>
> >> >> >> >> Where is this vineyard and how far is it from you?
> >> >> >> >> Where do you live? *What varieties are you growing? *How many
> >> >> >> >> vines do you have?

>
> >> >> >> >> > On Sep 26, 11:19*pm, jay > wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> for those who may benefit from reading this thread in the
> >> >> >> >> >> future.......Heavy cold damage is not a problem in the Puget
> >> >> >> >> >> Sound, what is a problem is that the wet/cool weather starts
> >> >> >> >> >> just around harvest so some years you might be ok others and
> >> >> >> >> >> early frost or rains can damage your crop. The reason I am
> >> >> >> >> >> going to use rootstock is that WSU trials have shown
> >> >> >> >> >> rootstock ripens the clones I have chosen 1-2 weeks earlier
> >> >> >> >> >> by redusing vine vigor, the grapes also show more complex
> >> >> >> >> >> flavor, (Moultan et al ) on top of the fact that losing years
> >> >> >> >> >> worth of work when I go wine tasting in Oregon and kick off
> >> >> >> >> >> Oregon vineyard dirt in my gravel driveway only to end up in
> >> >> >> >> >> my vineyard and killing my self rooted vinefera is simple not
> >> >> >> >> >> a course of action I will take period.




  #51 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 287
Default Advise for Vineyard Establishment

One more thought.

I've personally been to Cornell trial vineyards. What they use as
"mulch" is black screening. Not sure if that is the word for it but it
is not plastic, it is like a synthetically woven black cloth. Any
research out of that type of mulch mayshow reduced brix because the
"mulch they use provides nothing but weed control and mositure
retention. It doesn't inhibit water inundation and provides no fungus,
worms, soil structure.....nothing but moisture retention and weed
control. Wood chips are head and shoulders above that mulch.

IOn Sep 29, 11:43*am, wrote:
> Shbailey posted this a few threads ago:
>
> "I emailed Lon Rombough, the author of "The Grape Grower - A Guide to
> Organic Viticulture" about the subject of mulch. *Here is his reply:
>
> "The type of mulch makes a difference. *Wood chips are a lot different
> than chipped tree prunings, such as tree services produce. *Chipped
> pruning material is a mix of chip/chunk sizes and contains leaf matter
> and ramial wood (small twigs). *Such material has enough nitrogen to
> keep it from taking N from the soil, but enough large material that it
> decomposes slowly when used as mulch. *This is a lot different than
> using straight wood chips, which DO take N from the soil and can cake
> on the soil. *Want *proof? *Pile up chipped prunings and they will
> heat like compost and break down to a dark humus-like material in a
> matter of weeks. *Wood chips need lots of nitrogen and moisture added
> to compost anywhere near that way.
> In the vineyard such chipped prunings will last two to three years as
> mulch. *They provide the humic acids that soil flora needs and promote
> more even levels of moisture and nutrients.
> Granted, results will vary with different soils, and it's not that
> easy to get enough chipped tree prunings, but results are favorable in
> most conditions.
> All I can say is to try it on an area of the vineyard and see.
> Anything that helps the life of the soil will aid the vines in the
> long run.
> -Lon Rombough
>
> NEW grape pruning video:http://www.bunchgrapes.com/dvd.htmlView a
> short, low resolution clip hehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q58zFY0B1M
> Grapes, writing, consulting, my book, The Grape Grower, athttp://www.bunchgrapes.com*Winner of the Garden Writers Association
> "Best Talent in Writing" award for 2003."
>
> and in response to a follow up question about mulch compounding issues
> with excessive vigor:
>
> "That depends some on the soil. * Generally vines will grow better
> with mulch because moisture stays more constant in the soil. *Without
> mulch moisture fluctuates more, which will stress and slow vines more
> than *constant or gradually decreasing *moisture.
> -Lon"
>
> In "The Grape Grower", Lon references a Cornell study where the best
> results for both moisture retention and grape yield/sugar was from
> planting rye in the fall, which was killed by Roundup in the spring
> and left on the ground as a mulch. "
>
> Well, you know my experiences with wood chips. It doesn't matter and
> obviously Lon has no experience with them and I have more than he
> does. I will tell everyone for the umpteenth time that wood chips
> produce mychorrhizal fungus and earthworms while regulating moisture.
> The key to the wood chips is the good fungus that it produces along
> with all the other benefits.
>
> On Sep 29, 10:56*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> wrote:
>
> > wrote:
> > > "Nope, even your preferred expert, Lon Romboubough does not mention
> > > wood chip
> > > mulch. *He does mention (page 63) a study done by Cornell University
> > > which
> > > showed LOWERED brix levels using mulch. *There goes your two brix
> > > increase
> > > theory - shot down by your own expert. "

>
> > > Paul,

>
> > > Not trying to start another arguement here but what does page 61 of
> > > The Grape Grower say about Mychorhizal fungus and phyloxerra? I don't
> > > have the book.

>
> > On page 61 he states:

>
> > "An effect of mychorhizal fungus fungi that could bear on the control of
> > phylloxera is the ability of the fungi to stimulate root
> > development." .... "Since phylloxera harms the vines by killing or stunting
> > roots they feed on, stimulating the vine to produce many new roots could
> > help offset the harm of these sucking insects."

>
> > He discusses the use of compost to increase Mychorhizal Fungus but I have
> > not found a reference to mulch or bark mulch to do this.

>
> > On page 231 he discusses winter protection in zones 4 or colder and
> > mentions "laying them on the ground, whether to be covered with mulch or to
> > be pinned down to allow snow to cover and insulate them."

>
> > In discussing phylloxera he states on page 128 that "this pest prefers
> > heavy, clay soils. *It is not a pest on sandy soils."

>
> > > On Sep 28, 11:01*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > > wrote:
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > Lets see Paul,

>
> > >> > You were wrong about wood chips,

>
> > >> Nope, even your preferred expert, Lon Romboubough does not mention wood
> > >> chip mulch. *He does mention (page 63) a study done by Cornell University
> > >> which showed LOWERED brix levels using mulch. *There goes your two brix
> > >> increase theory - shot down by your own expert.

>
> > >> > wrong about laterals,

>
> > >> Not hardly, although laterals can contribute they can also be detrimental
> > >> in an overly vigorous vineyard and promote poor air circulation and hence
> > >> disease. *The OP was referencing his overly vigorous vineyard.

>
> > >> > wrong about
> > >> > bees,

>
> > >> I remember saying that bees are attracted to damaged fruit such as bird
> > >> pecks or other predators. *Do you disagree with this?

>
> > >> > wrong about Brute trash cans ( most are NSF #2, food grade) ,

>
> > >> Not all Rubbermaid Brute trash cans are food grade or suitable for
> > >> fermenting wine.

>
> > >> This was information I received FROM THE MANUFACTURER and was about a
> > >> particular Rubbermaid Trash can(s) that I was considering buying.

>
> > >> If you want to take the risk and poisin yourself, be my guest. *For all
> > >> others, I suggest you call the manufacturer and ask specifically if the
> > >> particular Brute Trash can you are considering buying is suitable for
> > >> fermenting wine. There are other safer options available.

>
> > >> > wrong about phyloxera being a bigger threat than cold as proven by
> > >> > "The perfect freeze" and you contradict *every other apect of
> > >> > viticulture according to Lon Rombough.

>
> > >> Lon Rombough is not against root stock. *I suggest you read pages 169-73
> > >> There are certain rootstocks that make certain varieties MORE winter
> > >> hardy. In addition you can read the other benefits of rootstock if you
> > >> bother to read your source. *His only criticism to rootstock vines is
> > >> their compartively higher cost than self rooted. This increased cost can
> > >> be recouped from other benefits.

>
> > >> He even includes a list of books on rootstocks in the Bibliography.
> > >> If you reference an "expert" it would serve you well to actually read
> > >> what the "expert" says.

>
> > >> > Now, you have given Jay advise
> > >> > to contact the local viticulture gurus and they agree with me! How
> > >> > much more wrong could you be?

>
> > >> I think Jay has a lot more on the ball and knows how to research the
> > >> facts and not listen to self proclaimed experts like yourself.

>
> > >> >> > of them I grow and where I live.

>
> > >> >> This is TOTAL nonesense and anyone following this thread realizes that
> > >> >> you are NOT contributing ANYTHING useful.

>
> > >> >> IF you are happy doing what you are doing, that is fine;

>
> > >> >> BUT:

>
> > >> >> to state to OTHERS that professional wine growers are not living in
> > >> >> the real world, that nurseries are motivated by money only, that the
> > >> >> French do not know anything about grape growing, that self rooted is
> > >> >> the only way to go, that fermenting in NON FDA APPROVED containers is
> > >> >> just fine, that mulch is the way to go for everyone, and that you
> > >> >> alone have the secret to success and all others are motived by money
> > >> >> is pure nonesense.

>
> > >> >> PLEASE, continue to do what makes you happy * B U T * realize that you
> > >> >> are expressing an OPINION based on YOUR experience in a LIMITED
> > >> >> environment in what you perceive as being the WHOLE world of
> > >> >> viticulture.

>
> > >> >> On the other hand I encourage the following:

>
> > >> >> I encourage all who may read this thread and are interested in growing
> > >> >> wine grapes to do the following:

>
> > >> >> Research the availabel literature

>
> > >> >> Contact the Agriculture Extension agent in the area they live

>
> > >> >> Contact PROFESSIONAL growers in their area to obtain information as to
> > >> >> varieties and how to grow these varieties.

>
> > >> >> Join a growers association in their area, especially those that have
> > >> >> educational seminars.

>
> > >> >> If you wish to engage in arguementation, please spend your time in
> > >> >> other groups who relish this sort of thing, ie, computer languages or
> > >> >> programming or religion,etc.

>
> > >> >> > You on the other hand have so many
> > >> >> > conditions, your flow chart for growing grapes points in all
> > >> >> > different directions with no end to the logic. I am endorsing OWN
> > >> >> > ROOTED VINES. They are simple and most of the times have just as
> > >> >> > much resistance to phyloxera as root stock. In fact, according to
> > >> >> > the article below root stock is no guarantee either. What I am also
> > >> >> > saying is that a vine will die of cold damage before it ever will
> > >> >> > die from phyloxera in a cold climate like Washington.

>
> > >>http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/hort/f...cks/nyrootstoc....

>
> > >> >> > Sep 27, 7:45*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > >> >> >> wrote:
> > >> >> >> > Don't worry Paul, I have a feeling Maryland will be shocked after
> > >> >> >> > the coming winter. SOmetimes it doesn't matter where you live.

>
> > >> >> >> You make no sense.
> > >> >> >> Are you taking your meds?

>
> > >> >> >> > On Sep 27, 10:26*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > >> >> >> > wrote:
> > >> >> >> >> wrote:
> > >> >> >> >> > Check this out.
> > >> >> >> >> >http://www.goodfruit.com/issues.php?...=1620&issue=59

>
> > >> >> >> >> > Notice the statement:
> > >> >> >> >> > "One key advantage of the region is that winter temperatures
> > >> >> >> >> > rarely drop low enough to damage grapevinesunlike the periodic
> > >> >> >> >> > winter freezes that devastate eastern Washington State
> > >> >> >> >> > vineyards, on average, every seven to

>
> ...
>
> read more »


  #52 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to rec.crafts.winemaking
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 287
Default Advise for Vineyard Establishment

I laughed when I read this.

http://www.tandjenterprises.com/biovam_cal_farmer.htm

Wood chips are cheaper than biovam and better for the soil.

On Sep 29, 11:51*am, wrote:
> One more thought.
>
> *I've personally been to Cornell trial vineyards. What they use as
> "mulch" is black screening. Not sure if that is the word for it but it
> is not plastic, it is like a synthetically woven black cloth. Any
> research out of that type of mulch mayshow *reduced brix because the
> "mulch they use provides nothing but weed control and mositure
> retention. It doesn't inhibit water inundation and provides no fungus,
> worms, soil structure.....nothing but moisture retention and weed
> control. Wood chips are head and shoulders above that mulch.
>
> *IOn Sep 29, 11:43*am, wrote:
>
> > Shbailey posted this a few threads ago:

>
> > "I emailed Lon Rombough, the author of "The Grape Grower - A Guide to
> > Organic Viticulture" about the subject of mulch. *Here is his reply:

>
> > "The type of mulch makes a difference. *Wood chips are a lot different
> > than chipped tree prunings, such as tree services produce. *Chipped
> > pruning material is a mix of chip/chunk sizes and contains leaf matter
> > and ramial wood (small twigs). *Such material has enough nitrogen to
> > keep it from taking N from the soil, but enough large material that it
> > decomposes slowly when used as mulch. *This is a lot different than
> > using straight wood chips, which DO take N from the soil and can cake
> > on the soil. *Want *proof? *Pile up chipped prunings and they will
> > heat like compost and break down to a dark humus-like material in a
> > matter of weeks. *Wood chips need lots of nitrogen and moisture added
> > to compost anywhere near that way.
> > In the vineyard such chipped prunings will last two to three years as
> > mulch. *They provide the humic acids that soil flora needs and promote
> > more even levels of moisture and nutrients.
> > Granted, results will vary with different soils, and it's not that
> > easy to get enough chipped tree prunings, but results are favorable in
> > most conditions.
> > All I can say is to try it on an area of the vineyard and see.
> > Anything that helps the life of the soil will aid the vines in the
> > long run.
> > -Lon Rombough

>
> > NEW grape pruning video:http://www.bunchgrapes.com/dvd.htmlViewa
> > short, low resolution clip hehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q58zFY0B1M
> > Grapes, writing, consulting, my book, The Grape Grower, athttp://www.bunchgrapes.com*Winner of the Garden Writers Association
> > "Best Talent in Writing" award for 2003."

>
> > and in response to a follow up question about mulch compounding issues
> > with excessive vigor:

>
> > "That depends some on the soil. * Generally vines will grow better
> > with mulch because moisture stays more constant in the soil. *Without
> > mulch moisture fluctuates more, which will stress and slow vines more
> > than *constant or gradually decreasing *moisture.
> > -Lon"

>
> > In "The Grape Grower", Lon references a Cornell study where the best
> > results for both moisture retention and grape yield/sugar was from
> > planting rye in the fall, which was killed by Roundup in the spring
> > and left on the ground as a mulch. "

>
> > Well, you know my experiences with wood chips. It doesn't matter and
> > obviously Lon has no experience with them and I have more than he
> > does. I will tell everyone for the umpteenth time that wood chips
> > produce mychorrhizal fungus and earthworms while regulating moisture.
> > The key to the wood chips is the good fungus that it produces along
> > with all the other benefits.

>
> > On Sep 29, 10:56*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > wrote:

>
> > > wrote:
> > > > "Nope, even your preferred expert, Lon Romboubough does not mention
> > > > wood chip
> > > > mulch. *He does mention (page 63) a study done by Cornell University
> > > > which
> > > > showed LOWERED brix levels using mulch. *There goes your two brix
> > > > increase
> > > > theory - shot down by your own expert. "

>
> > > > Paul,

>
> > > > Not trying to start another arguement here but what does page 61 of
> > > > The Grape Grower say about Mychorhizal fungus and phyloxerra? I don't
> > > > have the book.

>
> > > On page 61 he states:

>
> > > "An effect of mychorhizal fungus fungi that could bear on the control of
> > > phylloxera is the ability of the fungi to stimulate root
> > > development." .... "Since phylloxera harms the vines by killing or stunting
> > > roots they feed on, stimulating the vine to produce many new roots could
> > > help offset the harm of these sucking insects."

>
> > > He discusses the use of compost to increase Mychorhizal Fungus but I have
> > > not found a reference to mulch or bark mulch to do this.

>
> > > On page 231 he discusses winter protection in zones 4 or colder and
> > > mentions "laying them on the ground, whether to be covered with mulch or to
> > > be pinned down to allow snow to cover and insulate them."

>
> > > In discussing phylloxera he states on page 128 that "this pest prefers
> > > heavy, clay soils. *It is not a pest on sandy soils."

>
> > > > On Sep 28, 11:01*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >> > Lets see Paul,

>
> > > >> > You were wrong about wood chips,

>
> > > >> Nope, even your preferred expert, Lon Romboubough does not mention wood
> > > >> chip mulch. *He does mention (page 63) a study done by Cornell University
> > > >> which showed LOWERED brix levels using mulch. *There goes your two brix
> > > >> increase theory - shot down by your own expert.

>
> > > >> > wrong about laterals,

>
> > > >> Not hardly, although laterals can contribute they can also be detrimental
> > > >> in an overly vigorous vineyard and promote poor air circulation and hence
> > > >> disease. *The OP was referencing his overly vigorous vineyard.

>
> > > >> > wrong about
> > > >> > bees,

>
> > > >> I remember saying that bees are attracted to damaged fruit such as bird
> > > >> pecks or other predators. *Do you disagree with this?

>
> > > >> > wrong about Brute trash cans ( most are NSF #2, food grade) ,

>
> > > >> Not all Rubbermaid Brute trash cans are food grade or suitable for
> > > >> fermenting wine.

>
> > > >> This was information I received FROM THE MANUFACTURER and was about a
> > > >> particular Rubbermaid Trash can(s) that I was considering buying.

>
> > > >> If you want to take the risk and poisin yourself, be my guest. *For all
> > > >> others, I suggest you call the manufacturer and ask specifically if the
> > > >> particular Brute Trash can you are considering buying is suitable for
> > > >> fermenting wine. There are other safer options available.

>
> > > >> > wrong about phyloxera being a bigger threat than cold as proven by
> > > >> > "The perfect freeze" and you contradict *every other apect of
> > > >> > viticulture according to Lon Rombough.

>
> > > >> Lon Rombough is not against root stock. *I suggest you read pages 169-73
> > > >> There are certain rootstocks that make certain varieties MORE winter
> > > >> hardy. In addition you can read the other benefits of rootstock if you
> > > >> bother to read your source. *His only criticism to rootstock vines is
> > > >> their compartively higher cost than self rooted. This increased cost can
> > > >> be recouped from other benefits.

>
> > > >> He even includes a list of books on rootstocks in the Bibliography..
> > > >> If you reference an "expert" it would serve you well to actually read
> > > >> what the "expert" says.

>
> > > >> > Now, you have given Jay advise
> > > >> > to contact the local viticulture gurus and they agree with me! How
> > > >> > much more wrong could you be?

>
> > > >> I think Jay has a lot more on the ball and knows how to research the
> > > >> facts and not listen to self proclaimed experts like yourself.

>
> > > >> >> > of them I grow and where I live.

>
> > > >> >> This is TOTAL nonesense and anyone following this thread realizes that
> > > >> >> you are NOT contributing ANYTHING useful.

>
> > > >> >> IF you are happy doing what you are doing, that is fine;

>
> > > >> >> BUT:

>
> > > >> >> to state to OTHERS that professional wine growers are not living in
> > > >> >> the real world, that nurseries are motivated by money only, that the
> > > >> >> French do not know anything about grape growing, that self rooted is
> > > >> >> the only way to go, that fermenting in NON FDA APPROVED containers is
> > > >> >> just fine, that mulch is the way to go for everyone, and that you
> > > >> >> alone have the secret to success and all others are motived by money
> > > >> >> is pure nonesense.

>
> > > >> >> PLEASE, continue to do what makes you happy * B U T * realize that you
> > > >> >> are expressing an OPINION based on YOUR experience in a LIMITED
> > > >> >> environment in what you perceive as being the WHOLE world of
> > > >> >> viticulture.

>
> > > >> >> On the other hand I encourage the following:

>
> > > >> >> I encourage all who may read this thread and are interested in growing
> > > >> >> wine grapes to do the following:

>
> > > >> >> Research the availabel literature

>
> > > >> >> Contact the Agriculture Extension agent in the area they live

>
> > > >> >> Contact PROFESSIONAL growers in their area to obtain information as to
> > > >> >> varieties and how to grow these varieties.

>
> > > >> >> Join a growers association in their area, especially those that have
> > > >> >> educational seminars.

>
> > > >> >> If you wish to engage in arguementation, please spend your time in
> > > >> >> other groups who relish this sort of thing, ie, computer languages or
> > > >> >> programming or religion,etc.

>
> > > >> >> > You on the other hand have so many
> > > >> >> > conditions, your flow chart for growing grapes points in all
> > > >> >> > different directions with no end to the logic. I am endorsing OWN
> > > >> >> > ROOTED VINES. They are simple and most of the times have just as
> > > >> >> > much resistance to phyloxera as root stock. In fact, according to
> > > >> >> > the article below root stock is no guarantee either. What I am also
> > > >> >> > saying is that a vine will die of cold damage before it ever will
> > > >> >> > die from phyloxera in a cold climate like Washington.

>
> ...
>
> read more »


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http://www.sou.edu/geography/jones/P...esGeotimes.pdf



On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:45:30 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

>Another thought I left out.
>
>Global warming...

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Spud,

aren't you growing grapes in the northwest too? How's your vineyard
doing? what are you growing?


On Sep 29, 10:18*pm, spud > wrote:
> http://www.sou.edu/geography/jones/P...esGeotimes.pdf
>
> On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:45:30 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
> >Another thought I left out.

>
> >Global warming...


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spud, nice read


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I don't have anything to report. The vines are either cordons,
trunks or just established this year with more going in next. Give it
4 - 5 years or so and I'll be full of lies. LOL!!!

Steve
Oregon





On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 05:49:33 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

>Spud,
>
> aren't you growing grapes in the northwest too? How's your vineyard
>doing? what are you growing?
>
>
>On Sep 29, 10:18*pm, spud > wrote:
>>
http://www.sou.edu/geography/jones/P...esGeotimes.pdf
>>
>> On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:45:30 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
>> >Another thought I left out.

>>
>> >Global warming...


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On Sep 24, 11:48*pm, jay > wrote:
> Gentleman,
> I am new to the board and was wondering if anyone, has any advise for
> me.
> I am currently in the military and deployed as usual, but will be
> returning in February to a house I recently purchased in Yelm, Wa....
> this spring I want to plant an experimental vineyard.
> The soil at my site is Sandy Loam but I am not sure how deep before it
> reaches the semipermeable sublayer that is all over the Pacific NW
>
> I have currently ordered about 400 vines all reds, Regent, Pinot Noir
> Precoce, 777, St Laurent, and Garanoir all on 3309 and 101-14 but I
> can adjust m order through Jan.
>
> I am currently wrestling with ; which clones to plant and how much,
> vine spacing, methods of tilling/ riping the soil/ soil amendments
>
> I was thinking of using a tight spacing maybe 3x6, and only tilling
> the actual rows to leave the soil and covercrop between rows intact
> but I am not sure how to break through the hard sublayer, I was
> thinking of using an auger and just breaking up the layer under each
> vine...
>
> any thoughts?
>
> Jason


a few thoughts,

we are in the northwest. our climate is not the same as the east
coast. we do not use hybrids here. own rooted is the norm, not
grafted. but you know that.

you on the other hand have chosen to plant a vineyard in an area not
known as a growing area. and, you have chosen to plant pinot rather
than rhone or bordeaux varietals. to the south of you the Oregonians
plant pinot, to the west of you they plant very little. Woodenville
has lots of wineries, very few vineyards. far to your east and over
the mountains is a different growing world. to your north (BC) they
freeze and specialize in ice wine.

a few nuts and bolts questions:
what are the heat units on your property?
have you done a 30 year degree day study of you plot of ground?
how much slope is there?
will the cold air run off past the vines?
are you using drip?

Why did you choose those clones?
are they selected for your growing degree days?
you are directly north of willamette valley, the home of pinot. how do
your choices match up with those of your oregon neighbors?
my personal experience is the need for more than one grape to blend
for a better wine. pomard, dijon, and . . ?
they each add their own component, nose, body, color.



Find a grower mentor nearby, even if that is on Bainbridge Island.
Join WWAGG. Attend seminars and clinics.

plant own rooted vinifera based on your own unique growing region.
Have you talked to Tom Judkins?

ted
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Spud,

Are you growing grafted? Pinot Noir?

On Sep 30, 10:44*pm, spud > wrote:
> I don't have anything to report. * The vines are either cordons,
> trunks or just established this year with more going in next. *Give it
> 4 - 5 years or so and I'll be full of lies. * LOL!!!
>
> Steve
> Oregon
>
>
>
> On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 05:49:33 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
> >Spud,

>
> > aren't you growing grapes in the northwest too? How's your vineyard
> >doing? what are you growing?

>
> >On Sep 29, 10:18*pm, spud > wrote:
> >>http://www.sou.edu/geography/jones/P...esGeotimes.pdf

>
> >> On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:45:30 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
> >> >Another thought I left out.

>
> >> >Global warming...


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"we are in the northwest. our climate is not the same as the east
coast. we do not use hybrids here. own rooted is the norm, not
grafted. but you know that."

Ted,

What do you mean? Are all the vines in Washington own-rooted?


On Oct 1, 6:04*am, tdjudd > wrote:
> On Sep 24, 11:48*pm, jay > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Gentleman,
> > I am new to the board and was wondering if anyone, has any advise for
> > me.
> > I am currently in the military and deployed as usual, but will be
> > returning in February to a house I recently purchased in Yelm, Wa....
> > this spring I want to plant an experimental vineyard.
> > The soil at my site is Sandy Loam but I am not sure how deep before it
> > reaches the semipermeable sublayer that is all over the Pacific NW

>
> > I have currently ordered about 400 vines all reds, Regent, Pinot Noir
> > Precoce, 777, St Laurent, and Garanoir all on 3309 and 101-14 but I
> > can adjust m order through Jan.

>
> > I am currently wrestling with ; which clones to plant and how much,
> > vine spacing, methods of tilling/ riping the soil/ soil amendments

>
> > I was thinking of using a tight spacing maybe 3x6, and only tilling
> > the actual rows to leave the soil and covercrop between rows intact
> > but I am not sure how to break through the hard sublayer, I was
> > thinking of using an auger and just breaking up the layer under each
> > vine...

>
> > any thoughts?

>
> > Jason

>
> a few thoughts,
>
> we are in the northwest. our climate is not the same as the east
> coast. we do not use hybrids here. own rooted is the norm, not
> grafted. but you know that.
>
> you on the other hand have chosen to plant a vineyard in an area not
> known as a growing area. and, you have chosen to plant pinot rather
> than rhone or bordeaux varietals. to the south of you the Oregonians
> plant pinot, to the west of you they plant very little. Woodenville
> has lots of wineries, very few vineyards. far to your east and over
> the mountains is a different growing world. to your north (BC) they
> freeze and specialize in ice wine.
>
> a few nuts and bolts questions:
> what are the heat units on your property?
> have you done a 30 year degree day study of you plot of ground?
> how much slope is there?
> will the cold air run off past the vines?
> are you using drip?
>
> Why did you choose those clones?
> are they selected for your growing degree days?
> you are directly north of willamette valley, the home of pinot. how do
> your choices match up with those of your oregon neighbors?
> my personal experience is the need for more than one grape to blend
> for a better wine. pomard, dijon, and . . ?
> they each add their own component, nose, body, color.
>
> Find a grower mentor nearby, even if that is on Bainbridge Island.
> Join WWAGG. Attend seminars and clinics.
>
> plant own rooted vinifera based on your own unique growing region.
> Have you talked to Tom Judkins?
>
> ted


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Sorry double, not going to play your word games

my comments were to and for the person who started this thread and
asked the questions.

I am happy to identify myself to the group.

I am not interested in debating wine growing from behind a screen.

I make wine in the northwest. I grow wine in the northwest. I live
here.

good luck with your career in debate.

ted



On Oct 1, 7:23*am, wrote:
> "we are in the northwest. our climate is not the same as the east
> coast. we do not use hybrids here. own rooted is the norm, not
> grafted. but you know that."
>
> Ted,
>
> What do you mean? Are all the vines in Washington own-rooted?
>
> On Oct 1, 6:04*am, tdjudd > wrote:
>
> > On Sep 24, 11:48*pm, jay > wrote:

>
> > > Gentleman,
> > > I am new to the board and was wondering if anyone, has any advise for
> > > me.
> > > I am currently in the military and deployed as usual, but will be
> > > returning in February to a house I recently purchased in Yelm, Wa....
> > > this spring I want to plant an experimental vineyard.
> > > The soil at my site is Sandy Loam but I am not sure how deep before it
> > > reaches the semipermeable sublayer that is all over the Pacific NW

>
> > > I have currently ordered about 400 vines all reds, Regent, Pinot Noir
> > > Precoce, 777, St Laurent, and Garanoir all on 3309 and 101-14 but I
> > > can adjust m order through Jan.

>
> > > I am currently wrestling with ; which clones to plant and how much,
> > > vine spacing, methods of tilling/ riping the soil/ soil amendments

>
> > > I was thinking of using a tight spacing maybe 3x6, and only tilling
> > > the actual rows to leave the soil and covercrop between rows intact
> > > but I am not sure how to break through the hard sublayer, I was
> > > thinking of using an auger and just breaking up the layer under each
> > > vine...

>
> > > any thoughts?

>
> > > Jason

>
> > a few thoughts,

>
> > we are in the northwest. our climate is not the same as the east
> > coast. we do not use hybrids here. own rooted is the norm, not
> > grafted. but you know that.

>
> > you on the other hand have chosen to plant a vineyard in an area not
> > known as a growing area. and, you have chosen to plant pinot rather
> > than rhone or bordeaux varietals. to the south of you the Oregonians
> > plant pinot, to the west of you they plant very little. Woodenville
> > has lots of wineries, very few vineyards. far to your east and over
> > the mountains is a different growing world. to your north (BC) they
> > freeze and specialize in ice wine.

>
> > a few nuts and bolts questions:
> > what are the heat units on your property?
> > have you done a 30 year degree day study of you plot of ground?
> > how much slope is there?
> > will the cold air run off past the vines?
> > are you using drip?

>
> > Why did you choose those clones?
> > are they selected for your growing degree days?
> > you are directly north of willamette valley, the home of pinot. how do
> > your choices match up with those of your oregon neighbors?
> > my personal experience is the need for more than one grape to blend
> > for a better wine. pomard, dijon, and . . ?
> > they each add their own component, nose, body, color.

>
> > Find a grower mentor nearby, even if that is on Bainbridge Island.
> > Join WWAGG. Attend seminars and clinics.

>
> > plant own rooted vinifera based on your own unique growing region.
> > Have you talked to Tom Judkins?

>
> > ted




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Thanks for the thorough reply!
I already own this property so that’s why I am growing here, I am a
red wine lover, and actually my favorites have been Medoc/Haut Medocs
which is what I was introduced to my as "great wine" as a youngster by
my Parisian uncle. Now I had NO idea anyone could grow red wine in the
Puget Sound at all, I was actually looking at growing Hops and in
doing research for Hops I discovered people were growing red wine
grapes there!! not many, but some...and well its always been a dream
of mine to grow grapes and make wine from them I am about to have alot
of time at home ....so here we are

ALL my planning so far has been based off of G. Moultons work, at
WSU's Vernon research facilities growing red wine vinifera at that
location. Mt Vernon has about 1600 growing degrees there and he ripens
Pinot as well as other grapes from northern France, Germany , as well
as Swiss grapes.
The other person that has been a great source of advise that I am
following is Steve at Hollywood Hill and I am planning to offer him as
much free labor in the vineyard and winery as he wants in exchange for
mentorship....I wish he was a little closer but he is the closest I
know of growing Puget Sound Pinot ad making wine from it.

I have about 2000 growing degrees in a season, and about 200 growing
days above 50 but I have not done a 30 year study, (not sure where to
look for one... point me in the right direction if you can) my land is
flat (maybe one degree slope) in very deep sandy loam, about 1/2 mile
from a large lake, I don't have a real cold sink for frost, I don't
think cold air will drain much, but it certainly isn't a collecting
area for cold air either I am not at the bottom of a valley but the
land is flat...

as for irrigation I plan on using drip the first year, maybe the
second but not as the vines mature.

as for the clones I chose , they are all reds that are either the
earliest ripening Pinot clone (Fruheburgunder), or crosses and
relatives of Pinot that are even earlier ripening or more disease
resisistant like Garanoir and ST. Laurent. Regent I chose because its
easy to grow and it will be my "fallback" if I can't get the more
finicky varieties to ripen/ produce (they ripen Regent in London for
goodness sake!). Agria I chose as a blending tool because its a cool
climate teinturier, with thick tanic skins which can produce a great
lite sweet "red" if pressed early and alot of tannin if prodced like a
traditional red wine.

IF I am successful with the grapes I have chosen my next step would be
to plant 777 and 667 IOT develop my Pinot. I have decided on 3309 as
roostock for all my grapes IOT follow G. Moultons recommendations and
ripen up to a week earlier with that rootstock...if I have no problems
ripening certain grapes at my sight I might try some cuttings on their
own roots for future plantings.

I have not talked to Tom Judkins, I have made my initial order with
Cloudmountain Farms, they carry the varieties and rootstocks
appropriate for the Puget Sound area...of course other than the Auto
confirmation they haven't responded to my emails to revise my order.
Its a busy time of year so I will give them a few weeks but they dont
have a deposit from me yet so if Tom has what I need I could still
order from him.

Thanks again ted...let me know what you think...
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jay wrote:


>
> ALL my planning so far has been based off of G. Moultons work, at
> WSU's Vernon research facilities growing red wine vinifera at that
> location. Mt Vernon has about 1600 growing degrees there and he ripens
> Pinot as well as other grapes from northern France, Germany , as well
> as Swiss grapes.


I have been keeping track of growing degree days for about 4 years now. I
think this is a tool but not the only answer. I think hours of sunlight is
as important or more important.

This year I have about 3400 growing degree days thus far but the reds are
struggling to ripen with a reasonable brix. Last year at this time I had
300 growing degree days less and the reds ripened great.

This year in the Mid Atlantic has seen a cool July followed by a warm August
followed by a cool, cloudy, damp, misty rainy September. Even though we
have had the Growing degree days cumulative for the year, there has been a
noticeable lack of sunshine. Hopefully your vineyard area is free of
shade and in somewhat of a raid shadow.

> The other person that has been a great source of advise that I am
> following is Steve at Hollywood Hill and I am planning to offer him as
> much free labor in the vineyard and winery as he wants in exchange for
> mentorship....I wish he was a little closer but he is the closest I
> know of growing Puget Sound Pinot ad making wine from it.


I did the same thing. After I retired, I worked for a consultant
winegrower, and wine maker. I started off working for free but after about
a month, one of his clients noticed I was a hard worker and put me on the
payroll. I soon had more duties and responsibilities on my own. It was
great experience but be careful because some may take advantage of
the "free labor".

After I broke my big toe one year cleaning out a fermentation bin (picked it
up to drain out water and it slipped out of my hands and landed on my
foot), I decided that I wanted to keep winegrowing as a hobby and on a LOT
smaller scale than commercial level.

It sounds like you are doing great research and all the things you should be
doing. My only further advice is not to underestimate the amount of labor
involved. The first couple years are not bad but once you put the vines on
the fruiting wire, it gets to be a major factor.

Good luck and keep us informed
Paul

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On Oct 3, 7:03*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> jay wrote:
>
> > ALL my planning so far has been based off of G. Moultons work, at
> > WSU's Vernon research facilities growing red wine vinifera at that
> > location. Mt Vernon has about 1600 growing degrees there and he ripens
> > Pinot as well as other grapes from northern France, Germany , as well
> > as Swiss grapes.

>
> I have been keeping track of growing degree days for about 4 years now. *I
> think this is a tool but not the only answer. I think hours of sunlight is
> as important or more important. *
>
> This year I have about 3400 growing degree days thus far but the reds are
> struggling to ripen with a reasonable brix. *Last year at this time I had
> 300 growing degree days less and the reds ripened great. *
>
> This year in the Mid Atlantic has seen a cool July followed by a warm August
> followed by a cool, cloudy, damp, misty rainy September. *Even though we
> have had the Growing degree days cumulative for the year, there has been a
> noticeable lack of sunshine. * Hopefully your vineyard area is free of
> shade and in somewhat of a raid shadow.
>
> > The other person that has been a great source of advise that I am
> > following is Steve at Hollywood Hill and I am planning to offer him as
> > much free labor in the vineyard and winery as he wants in exchange for
> > mentorship....I wish he was a little closer but he is the closest I
> > know of growing Puget Sound Pinot ad making wine from it.

>
> I did the same thing. *After I retired, I worked for a consultant
> winegrower, and wine maker. *I started off working for free but after about
> a month, one of his clients noticed I was a hard worker and put me on the
> payroll. *I soon had more duties and responsibilities on my own. *It was
> great experience but be careful because some may take advantage of
> the "free labor". *
>
> After I broke my big toe one year cleaning out a fermentation bin (picked it
> up to drain out water and it slipped out of my hands and landed on my
> foot), I decided that I wanted to keep winegrowing as a hobby and on a LOT
> smaller scale than commercial level.
>
> It sounds like you are doing great research and all the things you should be
> doing. *My only further advice is not to underestimate the amount of labor
> involved. *The first couple years are not bad but once you put the vines on
> the fruiting wire, it gets to be a major factor.
>
> Good luck and keep us informed
> Paul


Thanks Paul!
The summers here are very dry and the hours of sunshine are really
long as well...the fight is to get it ripened before october because
when it starts raining it doesnt stop until March.
Jason
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I checked out Tom Judkins and what he offers according to his websight
he doesnt have the grapes I need so Cloud Mountain it is...

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On Oct 3, 7:58*am, jay > wrote:
> I checked out Tom Judkins and what he offers according to his websight
> he doesnt have the grapes I need so Cloud Mountain it is...


Thanks again Paul..
I am not too worried about sunshine Wa summers are dry with long
days....its just got be picked before it starts rainin and foggin in
Oct because it doesnt stop until March!


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On Oct 3, 7:35*am, jay > wrote:
> Thanks for the thorough reply!
> I already own this property so that’s why I am growing here, I am a
> red wine lover, and actually my favorites have been Medoc/Haut Medocs
> which is what I was introduced to my as "great wine" as a youngster by
> my Parisian uncle. Now I had NO idea anyone could grow red wine in the
> Puget Sound at all, I was actually looking at growing Hops and in
> doing research for Hops I discovered people were growing red wine
> grapes there!! not many, but some...and well its always been a dream
> of mine to grow grapes and make wine from them I am about to have alot
> of time at home ....so here we are
>
> ALL my planning so far has been based off of G. Moultons work, at
> WSU's Vernon research facilities growing red wine vinifera at that
> location. Mt Vernon has about 1600 growing degrees there and he ripens
> Pinot as well as other grapes from northern France, Germany , as well
> as Swiss grapes.
> The other person that has been a great source of advise that I am
> following is Steve at Hollywood Hill and I am planning to offer him as
> much free labor in the vineyard and winery as he wants in exchange for
> mentorship....I wish he was a little closer but he is the closest I
> know of growing Puget Sound Pinot ad making wine from it.
>
> I have about 2000 growing degrees in a season, and about 200 growing
> days above 50 but I have not done a 30 year study, (not sure where to
> look for one... point me in the right direction if you can) my land is
> flat *(maybe one degree slope) in very deep sandy loam, about 1/2 mile
> from a large lake, I don't have a real cold sink for frost, I don't
> think cold air will drain much, but it certainly isn't a collecting
> area for cold air either I am not at the bottom of a valley but the
> land is flat...
>
> as for irrigation I plan on using drip the first year, maybe the
> second but not as the vines mature.
>
> as for the clones I chose , they are all reds that are either the
> earliest ripening Pinot clone (Fruheburgunder), or crosses and
> relatives of Pinot that are even earlier ripening or more disease
> resisistant like Garanoir and ST. Laurent. Regent I chose because its
> easy to grow and it will be my "fallback" if I can't get the more
> finicky varieties to ripen/ produce (they ripen Regent in London for
> goodness sake!). Agria I chose as a blending tool because its a cool
> climate teinturier, with thick tanic skins which can produce *a great
> lite sweet "red" if pressed early and alot of tannin if prodced like a
> traditional red wine.
>
> IF I am successful with the grapes I have chosen my next step would be
> to plant 777 and 667 IOT develop my Pinot. I have decided on 3309 as
> roostock for all my grapes IOT follow G. Moultons recommendations and
> ripen up to a week earlier with that rootstock...if I have no problems
> ripening certain grapes at my sight I might try some cuttings on their
> own roots for future plantings.
>
> I have not talked to Tom Judkins, I have made my initial order with
> Cloudmountain Farms, they carry the varieties and rootstocks
> appropriate for the Puget Sound area...of course other than the Auto
> confirmation they haven't responded to my emails to revise my order.
> Its a busy time of year so I will give them a few weeks but they dont
> have a deposit from me yet so if Tom has what I need I could still
> order from him.
>
> Thanks again ted...let me know what you think...


more later, but here is a weather link.

http://ippc2.orst.edu/WA/index.html

I personally start with above 50 and below 95 to calculate degree
days.

ted
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On Sep 24, 11:48*pm, jay > wrote:
> Gentleman,
> I am new to the board and was wondering if anyone, has any advise for
> me.
> I am currently in the military and deployed as usual, but will be
> returning in February to a house I recently purchased in Yelm, Wa....
> this spring I want to plant an experimental vineyard.
> The soil at my site is Sandy Loam but I am not sure how deep before it
> reaches the semipermeable sublayer that is all over the Pacific NW
>
> I have currently ordered about 400 vines all reds, Regent, Pinot Noir
> Precoce, 777, St Laurent, and Garanoir all on 3309 and 101-14 but I
> can adjust m order through Jan.
>
> I am currently wrestling with ; which clones to plant and how much,
> vine spacing, methods of tilling/ riping the soil/ soil amendments
>
> I was thinking of using a tight spacing maybe 3x6, and only tilling
> the actual rows to leave the soil and covercrop between rows intact
> but I am not sure how to break through the hard sublayer, I was
> thinking of using an auger and just breaking up the layer under each
> vine...
>
> any thoughts?
>
> Jason


here is the growing degree day calculator for Yelm, WA

http://ippc2.orst.edu/risk/models?gl...&station=C6829

ted
http://ippc2.orst.edu/risk/models?gl...&station=C6829
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Thanks Ted,

ok so i am formulating the plan, sorry if this is boring anyone but
you guys are a big help getting the plan squared away.

I have tried recently to use that very calculator and without
successful outputs thanks for sending the results ted, 1920.6 growing
degrees it is. I was guessing at around 2000 by averaging a map I have
that has centralia WA at 2100 and Puyallup WA at 1800, but some hard
numbers are nice.

ok so with hard facts in place for growing degrees from Ted here are
the fine wine grapes I can ripen.

according to my studies I should be able to ripen, Garanoir, Rondo,
Pinot Noir( Precoce) , the Dijon clones, Agria, Regent, Zweigelt, and
St Laurent, my eventual goal is to start a small Garagiste Winery
devoted to maybe one or two wines, Pinot Noir, Regent, and maybe a
Blended wine. Any thoughts on the choices?
I was thinking of getting enough for a barrel of Regent, and plant a
selection of the others to see what I can grow, what does well, with
the goal of working up to a barrel of Pinot.
what do you think of these numbers?

140 / Regent
70 / Pinot P
35 / 777
35 / St Laurent
35 / Rondo
35 / Agria
35 / Zweigelt

all on 3309, even though 101-14 might contibute to earlier ripening
even more than 3309 by controlling vigor , 3309 will reduce my need
for water I think.

I dropped Garanoir even though its the first to ripen I think it
contributes little in wine quality and I replaced it with Zweigelt
which ripens a little later but makes a better wine...(according to
the books)

the Regent and Rondo are hybrids and the "fallback" the others are to
make Pinot and similair reds, I realize that these grapes would need
to expand in numbers to about 200 Regent and 300 Pinot to get to a
barrel of each, but I will expand as I go...the others are for
blending and making a St Laurent blend.
is this too many varieties?
jay
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jay wrote:

> Thanks Ted,
>
> ok so i am formulating the plan, sorry if this is boring anyone but
> you guys are a big help getting the plan squared away.
>
> I have tried recently to use that very calculator and without
> successful outputs thanks for sending the results ted, 1920.6 growing
> degrees it is. I was guessing at around 2000 by averaging a map I have
> that has centralia WA at 2100 and Puyallup WA at 1800, but some hard
> numbers are nice.
>
> ok so with hard facts in place for growing degrees from Ted here are
> the fine wine grapes I can ripen.
>
> according to my studies I should be able to ripen, Garanoir, Rondo,
> Pinot Noir( Precoce) , the Dijon clones, Agria, Regent, Zweigelt, and
> St Laurent, my eventual goal is to start a small Garagiste Winery
> devoted to maybe one or two wines, Pinot Noir, Regent, and maybe a
> Blended wine. Any thoughts on the choices?
> I was thinking of getting enough for a barrel of Regent, and plant a
> selection of the others to see what I can grow, what does well, with
> the goal of working up to a barrel of Pinot.
> what do you think of these numbers?
>
> 140 / Regent
> 70 / Pinot P
> 35 / 777
> 35 / St Laurent
> 35 / Rondo
> 35 / Agria
> 35 / Zweigelt
>
> all on 3309, even though 101-14 might contibute to earlier ripening
> even more than 3309 by controlling vigor , 3309 will reduce my need
> for water I think.
>
> I dropped Garanoir even though its the first to ripen I think it
> contributes little in wine quality and I replaced it with Zweigelt
> which ripens a little later but makes a better wine...(according to
> the books)
>
> the Regent and Rondo are hybrids and the "fallback" the others are to
> make Pinot and similair reds, I realize that these grapes would need
> to expand in numbers to about 200 Regent and 300 Pinot to get to a
> barrel of each, but I will expand as I go...the others are for
> blending and making a St Laurent blend.
> is this too many varieties?
> jay


Keep in mind in your calculations that you need enough wine to keep your
barrels topped up. Some of the barreled wine will be lost due to ullage and
you need to account for that.
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On Oct 3, 10:30*pm, jay > wrote:
> Thanks Ted,
>
> ok so i am formulating the plan, sorry if this is boring anyone but
> you guys are a big help getting the plan squared away.
>
> I have tried recently to use that very calculator and without
> successful outputs thanks for sending the results ted, 1920.6 growing
> degrees it is. I was guessing at around 2000 by averaging a map I have
> that has centralia WA at 2100 and Puyallup WA at 1800, but some hard
> numbers are nice.
>
> ok so with hard facts in place for growing degrees from Ted here are
> the fine wine grapes I can ripen.
>
> according to my studies I should be able to ripen, Garanoir, Rondo,
> Pinot Noir( Precoce) , the Dijon clones, Agria, Regent, Zweigelt, and
> St Laurent, my eventual goal is to start a small Garagiste Winery
> devoted to maybe one or two wines, Pinot Noir, Regent, and maybe a
> Blended wine. Any thoughts on the choices?
> I was thinking of getting enough for a barrel of Regent, and plant a
> selection of the others to see what I can grow, what does well, with
> the goal of *working up to a barrel of Pinot.
> what do you think of these numbers?
>
> 140 / Regent
> 70 */ Pinot P
> 35 / 777
> 35 / St Laurent
> 35 / Rondo
> 35 / Agria
> 35 / Zweigelt
>
> all on 3309, even though 101-14 might contibute to earlier ripening
> even more than 3309 by controlling vigor , 3309 will reduce my need
> for water I think.
>
> I dropped Garanoir even though its the first to ripen I think it
> contributes little in wine quality and I replaced it with Zweigelt
> which ripens a little later but makes a better wine...(according to
> the books)
>
> the Regent and Rondo are hybrids and the "fallback" *the others are to
> make Pinot and similair reds, I realize that these grapes would need
> to expand in numbers to about 200 Regent and 300 Pinot to get to a
> barrel of each, but I will expand as I go...the others are for
> blending and making a St Laurent blend.
> is this too many varieties?
> jay


The right wine for you is the one you like.
For personal use there are no wrong wines.
But, for even a small garagiste winery you need to think of
marketability.

Making small lots of different wines is fun. It gives you plenty to do
in your spare time. And you have an interesting mix of wines to
consume during the year. But, ask yourself, are the wines you are
planning to grow, the wines you purchase when you go to your favorite
wine shop?

Before I planted any vines I would spend some serious time in local
wine shops asking what people in your local area buy. What are the
wines they seek out? What WA and OR wines sell? In other words, what
is your local wine market? Do any of the wine shops (your potential
retail outlets) stock Garanoir, Rondo, Pinot Noir (Precoce) , the
Dijon clones, Agria, Regent, Zweigelt, and St Laurent?

A friend and wine maker planted Zweigelt because he likes it. It is
good that he still likes it because it does not sell well and he has
lots for his own consumption. It is not a name people here recognize
and seek out. Nor are Regent, Rondo or a St Laurent blend. If you were
in a growing region where vinifera will not grow, and the local wine
buyers were familiar with the grapes you have on your list, I would
not hesitate to plant the vines you have selected. But I do not
believe that to be the case in Yelm. A standard barrel yields 24*-
cases. You may have a lot of wine to drink, alone.

ted



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tdjudd wrote:

> On Oct 3, 10:30Â*pm, jay > wrote:
>> Thanks Ted,
>>
>> ok so i am formulating the plan, sorry if this is boring anyone but
>> you guys are a big help getting the plan squared away.
>>
>> I have tried recently to use that very calculator and without
>> successful outputs thanks for sending the results ted, 1920.6 growing
>> degrees it is. I was guessing at around 2000 by averaging a map I have
>> that has centralia WA at 2100 and Puyallup WA at 1800, but some hard
>> numbers are nice.
>>
>> ok so with hard facts in place for growing degrees from Ted here are
>> the fine wine grapes I can ripen.
>>
>> according to my studies I should be able to ripen, Garanoir, Rondo,
>> Pinot Noir( Precoce) , the Dijon clones, Agria, Regent, Zweigelt, and
>> St Laurent, my eventual goal is to start a small Garagiste Winery
>> devoted to maybe one or two wines, Pinot Noir, Regent, and maybe a
>> Blended wine. Any thoughts on the choices?
>> I was thinking of getting enough for a barrel of Regent, and plant a
>> selection of the others to see what I can grow, what does well, with
>> the goal of Â*working up to a barrel of Pinot.
>> what do you think of these numbers?
>>
>> 140 / Regent
>> 70 Â*/ Pinot P
>> 35 / 777
>> 35 / St Laurent
>> 35 / Rondo
>> 35 / Agria
>> 35 / Zweigelt
>>
>> all on 3309, even though 101-14 might contibute to earlier ripening
>> even more than 3309 by controlling vigor , 3309 will reduce my need
>> for water I think.
>>
>> I dropped Garanoir even though its the first to ripen I think it
>> contributes little in wine quality and I replaced it with Zweigelt
>> which ripens a little later but makes a better wine...(according to
>> the books)
>>
>> the Regent and Rondo are hybrids and the "fallback" Â*the others are to
>> make Pinot and similair reds, I realize that these grapes would need
>> to expand in numbers to about 200 Regent and 300 Pinot to get to a
>> barrel of each, but I will expand as I go...the others are for
>> blending and making a St Laurent blend.
>> is this too many varieties?
>> jay

>
> The right wine for you is the one you like.
> For personal use there are no wrong wines.
> But, for even a small garagiste winery you need to think of
> marketability.
>
> Making small lots of different wines is fun. It gives you plenty to do
> in your spare time. And you have an interesting mix of wines to
> consume during the year. But, ask yourself, are the wines you are
> planning to grow, the wines you purchase when you go to your favorite
> wine shop?
>
> Before I planted any vines I would spend some serious time in local
> wine shops asking what people in your local area buy. What are the
> wines they seek out? What WA and OR wines sell? In other words, what
> is your local wine market? Do any of the wine shops (your potential
> retail outlets) stock Garanoir, Rondo, Pinot Noir (Precoce) , the
> Dijon clones, Agria, Regent, Zweigelt, and St Laurent?
>
> A friend and wine maker planted Zweigelt because he likes it. It is
> good that he still likes it because it does not sell well and he has
> lots for his own consumption. It is not a name people here recognize
> and seek out. Nor are Regent, Rondo or a St Laurent blend. If you were
> in a growing region where vinifera will not grow, and the local wine
> buyers were familiar with the grapes you have on your list, I would
> not hesitate to plant the vines you have selected. But I do not
> believe that to be the case in Yelm. A standard barrel yields 24*-
> cases. You may have a lot of wine to drink, alone.
>
> ted


That is a good point.

Another point is that when you start thinking marketability, sweet sells.

This is not saying that you should make all your wines sweet but I guarantee
you that it will sell.

I know, winemakers are horrified at the idea of making a sweet wine - BUT -
a lot of young inexperienced wine drinkers like a sweet wine and those few
wineries that do make it, see it fly off their shelves while the purists
sit on inventory.

In short, if it is a hobby for you and friends and family, make what you
like BUT if you are interested in marketing - make what OTHERS like or
think they like because they have not tried all there is to try.

Paul
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Well what others like...

I cant go to a wine shop to see what sells I am in Sulu Philippines
hangin out with my team, monkeys, Phil Marines dodging falling
coconuts and everything else the locals send our way...be here till
feb or I would be helping someone pick and crush and asking them dumb
questions instead of you kind gentlemen ( if any ladies chime in
ladies and gentlemen)...I know the answere anyway

there are some whites...but since i drink so little of them I cant
justify making any yet...

basically, Pinot Noir is really the only recognized red wine I can
grow, period end of story....and frankly the Average wine drinker
doesnt drink it....what most people drink in Yelm is Yellow Tail cab
or merlot..and Bud Light ...not that there is anything wrong with
that.

I can't grow any other red grape that sells.. its the hardest to grow
on my list and I would hate to plant 300 vines for it to all mildew
and die my first year...or not ripen fully every year...or at least
most years.

St Laurent has a small occult following among those that know it and
has many times been blended with Pinot Noir, not in modern Burgundy
but it moved to Austria from there or possibly Alsace via some crazy
french monks....I think it has a future BUT 35 vines it is for now
because you have to be a real wino to know it...so it wont sell

Regent is being successfully commercially produced and sold by
Hollywood Hills and is the easiest growing grape that produces a full
bodied wine...there are a few acres commercially planted that are
under contract but...maybe I should think more carefully about
planting alot of it....its just that it WILL produce when Pinot
wont...and someone is selling some.

for commercial purposes Pinot Noir is the only answer in Yelm for
sellable estate wine...of course i could buy grapes from eastern wa
but I want to concentrate on one wine to begin with.

the rest of the grapes I just want to have fun with, almost all of
which are easier to grow or they ripen earlier than Pinot....but Pinot
is the only commercialy viable option I am sure of that.

Paul.... my planning numbers are 200 vines of Regent and 300 of Pinot
to keep a barrel topped off, be able to drop fruit, account for some
losses etc...I think that is on the safe side.

As for sweet....fortunately (unfortunately) I will never be able to
make the extremely popular BIG SWEET overoaked wines people find in
the hot dry places like california..I will have to go after those
moody picky aloof elitists that like lighter styled Pinot...(myself
included)

Ted...So is this what you were trying to drag out of me?
cut the regent and plant pinot?
Jay

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On Oct 4, 9:22 am, jay > wrote:
> Well what others like...
>
> I cant go to a wine shop to see what sells I am in Sulu Philippines
> hangin out with my team, monkeys, Phil Marines dodging falling
> coconuts and everything else the locals send our way...be here till
> feb or I would be helping someone pick and crush and asking them dumb
> questions instead of you kind gentlemen ( if any ladies chime in
> ladies and gentlemen)...I know the answere anyway
>
> there are some whites...but since i drink so little of them I cant
> justify making any yet...
>
> basically, Pinot Noir is really the only recognized red wine I can
> grow, period end of story....and frankly the Average wine drinker
> doesnt drink it....what most people drink in Yelm is Yellow Tail cab
> or merlot..and Bud Light ...not that there is anything wrong with
> that.
>
> I can't grow any other red grape that sells.. its the hardest to grow
> on my list and I would hate to plant 300 vines for it to all mildew
> and die my first year...or not ripen fully every year...or at least
> most years.
>
> St Laurent has a small occult following among those that know it and
> has many times been blended with Pinot Noir, not in modern Burgundy
> but it moved to Austria from there or possibly Alsace via some crazy
> french monks....I think it has a future BUT 35 vines it is for now
> because you have to be a real wino to know it...so it wont sell
>
> Regent is being successfully commercially produced and sold by
> Hollywood Hills and is the easiest growing grape that produces a full
> bodied wine...there are a few acres commercially planted that are
> under contract but...maybe I should think more carefully about
> planting alot of it....its just that it WILL produce when Pinot
> wont...and someone is selling some.
>
> for commercial purposes Pinot Noir is the only answer in Yelm for
> sellable estate wine...of course i could buy grapes from eastern wa
> but I want to concentrate on one wine to begin with.
>
> the rest of the grapes I just want to have fun with, almost all of
> which are easier to grow or they ripen earlier than Pinot....but Pinot
> is the only commercialy viable option I am sure of that.
>
> Paul.... my planning numbers are 200 vines of Regent and 300 of Pinot
> to keep a barrel topped off, be able to drop fruit, account for some
> losses etc...I think that is on the safe side.
>
> As for sweet....fortunately (unfortunately) I will never be able to
> make the extremely popular BIG SWEET overoaked wines people find in
> the hot dry places like california..I will have to go after those
> moody picky aloof elitists that like lighter styled Pinot...(myself
> included)
>
> Ted...So is this what you were trying to drag out of me?
> cut the regent and plant pinot?
> Jay


You are wise 1) to consider Regent, and 2) to not put all your eggs in
the Pinot Noir basket. Looking to the future, the low spray
requirements of Regent may put you in a good position if environmental
restrictions increase or there is more demand for wine with fewer
chemicals to grow (both very possible). Also, if those fall rains
start a little early, the Pinot Noir will rot and you will have
nothing that year.

Regarding sweet wines, is in illegal in Washington to add sugar for
commercial wines as it is in California? If not, don't discount the
market for sweet wines. In the mid-west and east where hybrids
(including Concord and its derivatives) are common, sweet wines are
among the best sellers for local wineries. In the case of labrusca
hybrids (i.e. Concord), sugar is necessary both before and after
fermentation to make a good wine.

Stephen
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shbailey wrote:

> On Oct 4, 9:22 am, jay > wrote:
>> Well what others like...
>>
>> I cant go to a wine shop to see what sells I am in Sulu Philippines
>> hangin out with my team, monkeys, Phil Marines dodging falling
>> coconuts and everything else the locals send our way...be here till
>> feb or I would be helping someone pick and crush and asking them dumb
>> questions instead of you kind gentlemen ( if any ladies chime in
>> ladies and gentlemen)...I know the answere anyway
>>
>> there are some whites...but since i drink so little of them I cant
>> justify making any yet...
>>
>> basically, Pinot Noir is really the only recognized red wine I can
>> grow, period end of story....and frankly the Average wine drinker
>> doesnt drink it....what most people drink in Yelm is Yellow Tail cab
>> or merlot..and Bud Light ...not that there is anything wrong with
>> that.
>>
>> I can't grow any other red grape that sells.. its the hardest to grow
>> on my list and I would hate to plant 300 vines for it to all mildew
>> and die my first year...or not ripen fully every year...or at least
>> most years.
>>
>> St Laurent has a small occult following among those that know it and
>> has many times been blended with Pinot Noir, not in modern Burgundy
>> but it moved to Austria from there or possibly Alsace via some crazy
>> french monks....I think it has a future BUT 35 vines it is for now
>> because you have to be a real wino to know it...so it wont sell
>>
>> Regent is being successfully commercially produced and sold by
>> Hollywood Hills and is the easiest growing grape that produces a full
>> bodied wine...there are a few acres commercially planted that are
>> under contract but...maybe I should think more carefully about
>> planting alot of it....its just that it WILL produce when Pinot
>> wont...and someone is selling some.
>>
>> for commercial purposes Pinot Noir is the only answer in Yelm for
>> sellable estate wine...of course i could buy grapes from eastern wa
>> but I want to concentrate on one wine to begin with.
>>
>> the rest of the grapes I just want to have fun with, almost all of
>> which are easier to grow or they ripen earlier than Pinot....but Pinot
>> is the only commercialy viable option I am sure of that.
>>
>> Paul.... my planning numbers are 200 vines of Regent and 300 of Pinot
>> to keep a barrel topped off, be able to drop fruit, account for some
>> losses etc...I think that is on the safe side.
>>
>> As for sweet....fortunately (unfortunately) I will never be able to
>> make the extremely popular BIG SWEET overoaked wines people find in
>> the hot dry places like california..I will have to go after those
>> moody picky aloof elitists that like lighter styled Pinot...(myself
>> included)
>>
>> Ted...So is this what you were trying to drag out of me?
>> cut the regent and plant pinot?
>> Jay

>
> You are wise 1) to consider Regent, and 2) to not put all your eggs in
> the Pinot Noir basket. Looking to the future, the low spray
> requirements of Regent may put you in a good position if environmental
> restrictions increase or there is more demand for wine with fewer
> chemicals to grow (both very possible). Also, if those fall rains
> start a little early, the Pinot Noir will rot and you will have
> nothing that year.
>
> Regarding sweet wines, is in illegal in Washington to add sugar for
> commercial wines as it is in California? If not, don't discount the
> market for sweet wines. In the mid-west and east where hybrids
> (including Concord and its derivatives) are common, sweet wines are
> among the best sellers for local wineries. In the case of labrusca
> hybrids (i.e. Concord), sugar is necessary both before and after
> fermentation to make a good wine.
>
> Stephen


I did not know that California had laws against adding sugar; not doubting
your word but just curious as to why then they are allowed to water down
their must to reduce Brix.

At the commercial winery I worked at after retirement here in the Mid
Atlantic, the best and fastest selling wine was a white wine with about 3%
residual sugar added post sterile filtering and prior to bottling.

It was a blend of Pinot Gris, Traminette and Reisling.
The owner of the winery hated to make sweet wine, but hey, it sold a LOT
faster than his other wines.

He also insisted on making a dry "Alsacion" style Riesling while his
competers made their Riesling with some residual sugar and outsold him.

I do not ever care to go the commercial route because in order to survive in
the business, I would be forced to make a wine that sold and sold fast and
not especially something that I enjoyed individually.





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On Oct 4, 8:22*am, jay > wrote:
> Well what others like...
>
> I cant go to a wine shop to see what sells I am in Sulu Philippines
> hangin out with my team, monkeys, Phil Marines dodging falling
> coconuts and everything else the locals send our way...be here till
> feb or I would be helping someone pick and crush and asking them dumb
> questions instead of you kind gentlemen ( if any ladies chime in
> ladies and gentlemen)...I know the answere anyway
>
> there are some whites...but since i drink so little of them I cant
> justify making any yet...
>
> basically, Pinot Noir is really the only recognized red wine I can
> grow, period end of story....and frankly the Average wine drinker
> doesnt drink it....what most people drink in Yelm is Yellow Tail cab
> or merlot..and Bud Light ...not that there is anything wrong with
> that.
>
> I can't grow any other red grape that sells.. its the hardest to grow
> on my list and I would hate to plant 300 vines for it to all mildew
> and die my first year...or not ripen fully every year...or at least
> most years.
>
> St Laurent has a small occult following among those that know it and
> has many times been blended with Pinot Noir, not in modern Burgundy
> but it moved to Austria from there or possibly Alsace via some crazy
> french monks....I think it has a future BUT 35 vines it is for now
> because you have to be a real wino to know it...so it wont sell
>
> Regent is being successfully commercially produced and sold by
> Hollywood Hills and is the easiest growing grape that produces a full
> bodied wine...there are a few acres commercially planted that are
> under contract but...maybe I should think more carefully about
> planting alot of it....its just that it WILL produce when Pinot
> wont...and someone is selling some.
>
> for commercial purposes Pinot Noir is the only answer in Yelm for
> sellable estate wine...of course i could buy grapes from eastern wa
> but I want to concentrate on one wine to begin with.
>
> the rest of the grapes I just want to have fun with, almost all of
> which are easier to grow or they ripen earlier than Pinot....but Pinot
> is the only commercialy viable option I am sure of that.
>
> Paul.... my planning numbers are *200 vines of Regent and 300 of Pinot
> to keep a barrel topped off, be able to drop fruit, account for some
> losses etc...I think that is on the safe side.
>
> *As for sweet....fortunately (unfortunately) I will never be able to
> make the extremely popular BIG SWEET overoaked wines people find in
> the hot dry places like california..I will have to go after those
> moody picky aloof elitists that like lighter styled Pinot...(myself
> included)
>
> Ted...So is this what you were trying to drag out of me?
> cut the regent and plant pinot?
> Jay


You are getting lots of great advise here. My comments were intended
to get you to take a close look at what you want. IMHO wine making is
an art born in passion. Planting your own vineyard, waiting for the
vines to mature, harvesting the grapes, waiting for them to turn into
good wine, can be an act of masochism. It takes many years! To be
successful, whether for personal or professional consumption, you have
to to have patience and really like what you are doing.

I did not make white wine for my first few years. But every time I got
set to open a bottle of wine with dinner and she with whom I share my
life would ask, is it another red? I decided it was time to learn.
There really are times and places for a good white wine.

Sweet? Good commercial suggestion. A friend of mine makes a "white
pinot" and thinks of it as a misuse of a noble grape, BUT, it sells
better than his award winning pinot noir. He holds his nose all the
way to the bank. "As much as I don't like it, it pays all the utility
bills in the winery".

A few more rambling thoughts regarding growing and making choices.
You are surrounded by wineries. most of whom do not grow their own
fruit. One way to add to your mix and speed up the process of wine
making could be for you to purchase a few batches of grapes and
practice the art of wine making while waiting for your vineyard to
mature. 1200 Lbs of grapes have yielded enough for me to make a good
barrel with enough left over for two years of topping juice.

One macro bin to transport, another to destem into, then used as
fermenters can get you started. Use one of the neighborhood presses to
squeeze your juice into a barrel.

Try it, you will learn, if you like it.

http://maritimefruit.wsu.edu/WineGrapes07.html

a pretty good resource, but use with caution. I love academics who
give advice, but don't grow or make wine. pick and choose what is best
for you, and remember what you paid for the advice we all offer so
freely.

ted


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Jay,

1. The french are good at blends and they sell plenty bottles of wine
in which you have no idea what grape is in there. The french have
mastered blending. That is an option, make blends or even pure
varietals and just give them a catchy name and label. They'll sell,
especially if they have sugar. When you go to a winery, ask what their
best selling wine is. I do all the time and they always tell me it's
the sweet stuff. I like all types of wine. I like the sweet too,
especially in the summer. Cataba is a big seller with the women. I
think it's the color and sugar. Don't fight the market and don't
listen to any wine snob who pretends they don't like sugar. It's sorta
like McDonalds, billions served but everyone claims to hate it.


On Oct 4, 10:22*am, jay > wrote:
> Well what others like...
>
> I cant go to a wine shop to see what sells I am in Sulu Philippines
> hangin out with my team, monkeys, Phil Marines dodging falling
> coconuts and everything else the locals send our way...be here till
> feb or I would be helping someone pick and crush and asking them dumb
> questions instead of you kind gentlemen ( if any ladies chime in
> ladies and gentlemen)...I know the answere anyway
>
> there are some whites...but since i drink so little of them I cant
> justify making any yet...
>
> basically, Pinot Noir is really the only recognized red wine I can
> grow, period end of story....and frankly the Average wine drinker
> doesnt drink it....what most people drink in Yelm is Yellow Tail cab
> or merlot..and Bud Light ...not that there is anything wrong with
> that.
>
> I can't grow any other red grape that sells.. its the hardest to grow
> on my list and I would hate to plant 300 vines for it to all mildew
> and die my first year...or not ripen fully every year...or at least
> most years.
>
> St Laurent has a small occult following among those that know it and
> has many times been blended with Pinot Noir, not in modern Burgundy
> but it moved to Austria from there or possibly Alsace via some crazy
> french monks....I think it has a future BUT 35 vines it is for now
> because you have to be a real wino to know it...so it wont sell
>
> Regent is being successfully commercially produced and sold by
> Hollywood Hills and is the easiest growing grape that produces a full
> bodied wine...there are a few acres commercially planted that are
> under contract but...maybe I should think more carefully about
> planting alot of it....its just that it WILL produce when Pinot
> wont...and someone is selling some.
>
> for commercial purposes Pinot Noir is the only answer in Yelm for
> sellable estate wine...of course i could buy grapes from eastern wa
> but I want to concentrate on one wine to begin with.
>
> the rest of the grapes I just want to have fun with, almost all of
> which are easier to grow or they ripen earlier than Pinot....but Pinot
> is the only commercialy viable option I am sure of that.
>
> Paul.... my planning numbers are *200 vines of Regent and 300 of Pinot
> to keep a barrel topped off, be able to drop fruit, account for some
> losses etc...I think that is on the safe side.
>
> *As for sweet....fortunately (unfortunately) I will never be able to
> make the extremely popular BIG SWEET overoaked wines people find in
> the hot dry places like california..I will have to go after those
> moody picky aloof elitists that like lighter styled Pinot...(myself
> included)
>
> Ted...So is this what you were trying to drag out of me?
> cut the regent and plant pinot?
> Jay


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Well,

It is legal to add sugar in WA so that is an option.

Also WA varietal wine only needs to have 75% of that variety...so
there are options there as well.

I plan on making wine when I get home by ordering some frozen grapes,
and then fresh grapes every year from then on until my own come in.

maybe I should plant at least one white, and explore whites more...I
don't dislike white wine its just that when it’s a good time for a
white wine, like a nice summer afternoon I'll drink a hoppy IPA and my
wife eats chocolate and wants to know why I don't become a
chocolateer.

Thanks for all the advice guys; I am taking it in....of course this is
for the trial vineyard anyway so I have time before I can clear the
other 8 acres anyway.

Jason
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jay wrote:

> Well,
>
> It is legal to add sugar in WA so that is an option.
>
> Also WA varietal wine only needs to have 75% of that variety...so
> there are options there as well.
>
> I plan on making wine when I get home by ordering some frozen grapes,
> and then fresh grapes every year from then on until my own come in.
>
> maybe I should plant at least one white, and explore whites more...I
> don't dislike white wine its just that when its a good time for a
> white wine, like a nice summer afternoon I'll drink a hoppy IPA and my
> wife eats chocolate and wants to know why I don't become a
> chocolateer.


I used to make only reds and then I discovered Traminette and the Pinot Gris
grown in the area in which I live. I don't know if you are able to grow
Pinot Gris in your area but I believe you might. It is an early ripening
grape.

The whites are VERY rewarding to make. They are ready to drink very quickly
and you have something to show for your efforts while your reds age. I
harvest whites in September and am drinking them by February. The reds I
make really need about 18 months to start coming around nicely. Also you
can experiment with whites by blending and making non traditional whites.
For example, I do not like the oaky, buttery, barrel aged Chardonnay but I
really do enjoy the crisp, non oaky, non ML Chardonnay.

Paul

>
> Thanks for all the advice guys; I am taking it in....of course this is
> for the trial vineyard anyway so I have time before I can clear the
> other 8 acres anyway.
>
> Jason


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On Oct 5, 12:55 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
wrote:

"I used to make only reds and then I discovered Traminette and the
Pinot Gris
grown in the area in which I live. I don't know if you are able to
grow
Pinot Gris in your area but I believe you might. It is an early
ripening
grape. "


I had a fabulous Virginia Traminette the other day. It was spicy
fruity with a little residual sugar. I'm not sure that it will ripen
in your area, but it might and would be worth checking on. It is 1/2
Gewurztraminer.

Stephen
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As for whites,
Here are the WSU recommendations; Siegerrebe, Madeleine Angevine,
Muller-Thurgau and Pinot Gris other lesser known posibilities,
Iskorko, Burmunk , Ortega, Optima, Sylvaner, Auxerrois Blanc and if I
consistantly get above 1900 every year...Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc,
Red Traminer ( not sure if thats the same as your Traminette...
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