wrote:
> "But wood chips are
> not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. What would be, is what
> comes off the vines themselves plus any additional material from the
> support in a natural condition. "
>
>
> Wood chips are made mostly of carbon. Just like leaves on a vine. They
> don't rob nitrogen from the soil. They also don't put poisons into the
> soil in fact, if ypu mulched with wood chips from a b;ack walnut you
> would still see tremendous benefits.Wood chips have few seeds that is
> why it is a good mulch and when I say natuaral I should have said
> organic. I also notice that putting must out in the vineyard causes
> weed comprised of small grapevines.
>

General gardening knowledge tells me that wood used as a mulch is broken
down by a bacteria that consumes nitrogen from the soil.
Recommendations are to use anywhere from 25-50% more nitrogen fertilizer
when using a wood mulch.

wrote:

> Michael,
>
> Here's an observation that I have made. The growers who use mulch are
> very happy with it and the growers who have absolutely no experience
> with it are saying it's bad. Like I said, just keep observing.

From "From Vines to Vines" by Jeff Cox pp 54-55

Mulching the area under the vines is not recommended for any except the very
hot and dry areas. The mulch keeps the soil moist, which can stimulate
late vine growth - growth that will be weak, tender, and immature heading
into cold weather, with a much greater chance of winterkill. Such late
growth takes carbohydrates that would better be pumped into ripening
grapes. Also, mulches decay over the summer, washing soluble nutrients
down to the vine roots, stimulating even more undesirable late growth."

"The vine bed goes through the winter with bare soil. This allows frost to
penetrate deeply into the ground, preventing early bud burst, and the
consequent danger of frost damage, in the spring. Dr. John McGrew of the
USDA told me that he had two rows of vines along his driveway in Maryland.
One was mulched overwinter and through the spring, and the other had bare
soil. the mulch kept the soil warmer, and the vine growth began there
before it did in the unmulched bid. This early growth was killed by late
frosts while the bare=soil vines had no injury at all."





>
>
> On Sep 8, 5:53Â*am, wrote:
>> "But wood chips are
>> not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. Â*What would be, is what
>> comes off the vines themselves plus any additional material from the
>> support in a natural condition. Â*"
>>
>> Wood chips are made mostly of carbon. Just like leaves on a vine. They
>> don't rob nitrogen from the soil. They also don't put poisons into the
>> soil in fact, if ypu mulched with wood chips from a b;ack walnut you
>> would still see tremendous benefits.Wood chips have few seeds that is
>> why it is a good mulch and when I say natuaral I should have said
>> organic. I also notice that putting must out in the vineyard causes
>> weed comprised of small grapevines.
>>
>> On Sep 4, 10:21Â*pm, spud > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Hi:
>>
>> > Hate to interupt this interesting ****ing match. Â*But wood chips are
>> > not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. Â*What would be, is what
>> > comes off the vines themselves plus any additional material from the
>> > support in a natural condition.
>>
>> > I and SWMBO have never seen a wild grape in a conifer, though it may
>> > occur. Â*But I have seen plenty in hardwoods. Â*So based on observation
>> > a natural mulch would consist of grape leaves, canes, rotten grapes
>> > and leaves from the host support.
>>
>> > I would be very careful with chips. Â*Conifers and all of their by
>> > products tend to acidic, hardwoods to basic. Â*So if one is to use
>> > other than grape by products for mulch then hardwoods might be the
>> > best source. Â*Grape by products and hardwood leaves would more likely
>> > be much better than chips.
>>
>> > In addition because conifers grow in generally tough conditions, ie
>> > drought during the growing season they produce chemicals that inhibit
>> > growth of other plants to reduce competition for soil nutrients, water
>> > and sunlight.
>>
>> > Also I think the real benefit from mulch is the longterm incorporation
>> > of organics in the soils which promote water, nutrient holding
>> > capacity and better biotics for bugs, fungi and bacteria that can
>> > contribute to over all health of the vineyard.
>>
>> > Most backyard vineyards around here grow grass right up to the vine
>> > trunks. Â*Grass clippings are left in the vineyard along with leaves.
>> > Some chip the prunings while others pile and burn. Â*No one I know uses
>> > chips. Â* So dry farm, others irrigate, that is soild water capacity
>> > dependent. Â*I see no issues with this in the health of the plant or
>> > the grape nor any need to mulch.
>>
>> > Lastly the struggle arguement has traction for a good reason. Â*Fruit
>> > is smaller making skin to juice ratios better for hearty reds. Â*In
>> > addition ripening can and usually does occur sooner with the obvious
>> > advatages.
>>
>> > Just my $0.02
>>
>> > Steve
>> > Oregon
>>
>> > On Fri, 4 Sep 2009 07:20:50 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
>> > >I personally use wood chips
>> > >because I think it regulates better because it mirrors what occurs in
>> > >nature more accurately, which is to breakdown and supply nutrients
>> > >while forming a barrier to soak up excess water while also sealing in
>> > >existing moisture.

Cox obviously has no experience with mulch. It's a good book for
pruning and winemaking but he's clueless when i comes to growing
grapes.

"One was mulched overwinter and through the spring, and the other had
bare
> soil. *the mulch kept the soil warmer, and the vine growth began there
> before it did in the unmulched bid. "

This is totally opposite of what any rational human being would think.
The mulch actually keeps the soil COOLER in the spring because it
takes longer for the warmth to penetrate the mulched soil. I also
don't have early bud break with mulched vines and I use pruning to
delay bud break at least a week which saved me this year.


On Sep 8, 7:37*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > Michael,
>
> > Here's an observation that I have made. The growers who use mulch are
> > very happy with it and the growers who have absolutely no experience
> > with it are saying it's bad. Like I said, just keep observing.
>
> From "From Vines to Vines" by Jeff Cox pp 54-55
>
> Mulching the area under the vines is not recommended for any except the very
> hot and dry areas. *The mulch keeps the soil moist, which can stimulate
> late vine growth - growth that will be weak, tender, and immature heading
> into cold weather, with a much greater chance of winterkill. *Such late
> growth takes carbohydrates that would better be pumped into ripening
> grapes. *Also, mulches decay over the summer, washing soluble nutrients
> down to the vine roots, stimulating even more undesirable late growth."
>
> "The vine bed goes through the winter with bare soil. *This allows frost to
> penetrate deeply into the ground, preventing early bud burst, and the
> consequent danger of frost damage, in the spring. *Dr. John McGrew of the
> USDA told me that he had two rows of vines along his driveway in Maryland..
> One was mulched overwinter and through the spring, and the other had bare
> soil. *the mulch kept the soil warmer, and the vine growth began there
> before it did in the unmulched bid. *This early growth was killed by late
> frosts while the bare=soil vines had no injury at all."
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 8, 5:53*am, wrote:
> >> "But wood chips are
> >> not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. *What would be, is what
> >> comes off the vines themselves plus any additional material from the
> >> support in a natural condition. *"
>
> >> Wood chips are made mostly of carbon. Just like leaves on a vine. They
> >> don't rob nitrogen from the soil. They also don't put poisons into the
> >> soil in fact, if ypu mulched with wood chips from a b;ack walnut you
> >> would still see tremendous benefits.Wood chips have few seeds that is
> >> why it is a good mulch and when I say natuaral I should have said
> >> organic. I also notice that putting must out in the vineyard causes
> >> weed comprised of small grapevines.
>
> >> On Sep 4, 10:21*pm, spud > wrote:
>
> >> > Hi:
>
> >> > Hate to interupt this interesting ****ing match. *But wood chips are
> >> > not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. *What would be, is what
> >> > comes off the vines themselves plus any additional material from the
> >> > support in a natural condition.
>
> >> > I and SWMBO have never seen a wild grape in a conifer, though it may
> >> > occur. *But I have seen plenty in hardwoods. *So based on observation
> >> > a natural mulch would consist of grape leaves, canes, rotten grapes
> >> > and leaves from the host support.
>
> >> > I would be very careful with chips. *Conifers and all of their by
> >> > products tend to acidic, hardwoods to basic. *So if one is to use
> >> > other than grape by products for mulch then hardwoods might be the
> >> > best source. *Grape by products and hardwood leaves would more likely
> >> > be much better than chips.
>
> >> > In addition because conifers grow in generally tough conditions, ie
> >> > drought during the growing season they produce chemicals that inhibit
> >> > growth of other plants to reduce competition for soil nutrients, water
> >> > and sunlight.
>
> >> > Also I think the real benefit from mulch is the longterm incorporation
> >> > of organics in the soils which promote water, nutrient holding
> >> > capacity and better biotics for bugs, fungi and bacteria that can
> >> > contribute to over all health of the vineyard.
>
> >> > Most backyard vineyards around here grow grass right up to the vine
> >> > trunks. *Grass clippings are left in the vineyard along with leaves.
> >> > Some chip the prunings while others pile and burn. *No one I know uses
> >> > chips. * So dry farm, others irrigate, that is soild water capacity
> >> > dependent. *I see no issues with this in the health of the plant or
> >> > the grape nor any need to mulch.
>
> >> > Lastly the struggle arguement has traction for a good reason. *Fruit
> >> > is smaller making skin to juice ratios better for hearty reds. *In
> >> > addition ripening can and usually does occur sooner with the obvious
> >> > advatages.
>
> >> > Just my $0.02
>
> >> > Steve
> >> > Oregon
>
> >> > On Fri, 4 Sep 2009 07:20:50 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
> >> > >I personally use wood chips
> >> > >because I think it regulates better because it mirrors what occurs in
> >> > >nature more accurately, which is to breakdown and supply nutrients
> >> > >while forming a barrier to soak up excess water while also sealing in
> >> > >existing moisture.

Paul answer me one question. If "Dr." John McGrew took some cuttings
off a vine in the spring and put them in a vase indoors, how is it
that the buds break when they are totally disconnected from the roots?


On Sep 8, 8:41*am, wrote:
> Cox obviously has no experience with mulch. It's a good book for
> pruning and winemaking but he's clueless when i comes to growing
> grapes.
>
> "One was mulched overwinter and through the spring, and the other had
> bare
>
> > soil. *the mulch kept the soil warmer, and the vine growth began there
> > before it did in the unmulched bid. "
>
> This is totally opposite of what any rational human being would think.
> The mulch actually keeps the soil COOLER in the spring because it
> takes longer for the warmth to penetrate the mulched soil. I also
> don't have early bud break with mulched vines and I use pruning to
> delay bud break at least a week which saved me this year.
>
> On Sep 8, 7:37*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > > Michael,
>
> > > Here's an observation that I have made. The growers who use mulch are
> > > very happy with it and the growers who have absolutely no experience
> > > with it are saying it's bad. Like I said, just keep observing.
>
> > From "From Vines to Vines" by Jeff Cox pp 54-55
>
> > Mulching the area under the vines is not recommended for any except the very
> > hot and dry areas. *The mulch keeps the soil moist, which can stimulate
> > late vine growth - growth that will be weak, tender, and immature heading
> > into cold weather, with a much greater chance of winterkill. *Such late
> > growth takes carbohydrates that would better be pumped into ripening
> > grapes. *Also, mulches decay over the summer, washing soluble nutrients
> > down to the vine roots, stimulating even more undesirable late growth."
>
> > "The vine bed goes through the winter with bare soil. *This allows frost to
> > penetrate deeply into the ground, preventing early bud burst, and the
> > consequent danger of frost damage, in the spring. *Dr. John McGrew of the
> > USDA told me that he had two rows of vines along his driveway in Maryland.
> > One was mulched overwinter and through the spring, and the other had bare
> > soil. *the mulch kept the soil warmer, and the vine growth began there
> > before it did in the unmulched bid. *This early growth was killed by late
> > frosts while the bare=soil vines had no injury at all."
>
> > > On Sep 8, 5:53*am, wrote:
> > >> "But wood chips are
> > >> not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. *What would be, is what
> > >> comes off the vines themselves plus any additional material from the
> > >> support in a natural condition. *"
>
> > >> Wood chips are made mostly of carbon. Just like leaves on a vine. They
> > >> don't rob nitrogen from the soil. They also don't put poisons into the
> > >> soil in fact, if ypu mulched with wood chips from a b;ack walnut you
> > >> would still see tremendous benefits.Wood chips have few seeds that is
> > >> why it is a good mulch and when I say natuaral I should have said
> > >> organic. I also notice that putting must out in the vineyard causes
> > >> weed comprised of small grapevines.
>
> > >> On Sep 4, 10:21*pm, spud > wrote:
>
> > >> > Hi:
>
> > >> > Hate to interupt this interesting ****ing match. *But wood chips are
> > >> > not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. *What would be, is what
> > >> > comes off the vines themselves plus any additional material from the
> > >> > support in a natural condition.
>
> > >> > I and SWMBO have never seen a wild grape in a conifer, though it may
> > >> > occur. *But I have seen plenty in hardwoods. *So based on observation
> > >> > a natural mulch would consist of grape leaves, canes, rotten grapes
> > >> > and leaves from the host support.
>
> > >> > I would be very careful with chips. *Conifers and all of their by
> > >> > products tend to acidic, hardwoods to basic. *So if one is to use
> > >> > other than grape by products for mulch then hardwoods might be the
> > >> > best source. *Grape by products and hardwood leaves would more likely
> > >> > be much better than chips.
>
> > >> > In addition because conifers grow in generally tough conditions, ie
> > >> > drought during the growing season they produce chemicals that inhibit
> > >> > growth of other plants to reduce competition for soil nutrients, water
> > >> > and sunlight.
>
> > >> > Also I think the real benefit from mulch is the longterm incorporation
> > >> > of organics in the soils which promote water, nutrient holding
> > >> > capacity and better biotics for bugs, fungi and bacteria that can
> > >> > contribute to over all health of the vineyard.
>
> > >> > Most backyard vineyards around here grow grass right up to the vine
> > >> > trunks. *Grass clippings are left in the vineyard along with leaves.
> > >> > Some chip the prunings while others pile and burn. *No one I know uses
> > >> > chips. * So dry farm, others irrigate, that is soild water capacity
> > >> > dependent. *I see no issues with this in the health of the plant or
> > >> > the grape nor any need to mulch.
>
> > >> > Lastly the struggle arguement has traction for a good reason. *Fruit
> > >> > is smaller making skin to juice ratios better for hearty reds. *In
> > >> > addition ripening can and usually does occur sooner with the obvious
> > >> > advatages.
>
> > >> > Just my $0.02
>
> > >> > Steve
> > >> > Oregon
>
> > >> > On Fri, 4 Sep 2009 07:20:50 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
> > >> > >I personally use wood chips
> > >> > >because I think it regulates better because it mirrors what occurs in
> > >> > >nature more accurately, which is to breakdown and supply nutrients
> > >> > >while forming a barrier to soak up excess water while also sealing in
> > >> > >existing moisture.

Paul,

BTW, black plastic or black screen is considered mulch. That is
probably what "Dr." John McGrew used. Of course black heats up faster
than regular dirt. I'm not advocating that. I'm advocating wood chip
mulch.


On Sep 8, 8:52*am, wrote:
> Paul answer me one question. If "Dr." John McGrew took some cuttings
> off a vine in the spring and put them in a vase indoors, how is it
> that the buds break when they are totally disconnected from the roots?
>
> *On Sep 8, 8:41*am, wrote:
>
>
>
> > Cox obviously has no experience with mulch. It's a good book for
> > pruning and winemaking but he's clueless when i comes to growing
> > grapes.
>
> > "One was mulched overwinter and through the spring, and the other had
> > bare
>
> > > soil. *the mulch kept the soil warmer, and the vine growth began there
> > > before it did in the unmulched bid. "
>
> > This is totally opposite of what any rational human being would think.
> > The mulch actually keeps the soil COOLER in the spring because it
> > takes longer for the warmth to penetrate the mulched soil. I also
> > don't have early bud break with mulched vines and I use pruning to
> > delay bud break at least a week which saved me this year.
>
> > On Sep 8, 7:37*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Michael,
>
> > > > Here's an observation that I have made. The growers who use mulch are
> > > > very happy with it and the growers who have absolutely no experience
> > > > with it are saying it's bad. Like I said, just keep observing.
>
> > > From "From Vines to Vines" by Jeff Cox pp 54-55
>
> > > Mulching the area under the vines is not recommended for any except the very
> > > hot and dry areas. *The mulch keeps the soil moist, which can stimulate
> > > late vine growth - growth that will be weak, tender, and immature heading
> > > into cold weather, with a much greater chance of winterkill. *Such late
> > > growth takes carbohydrates that would better be pumped into ripening
> > > grapes. *Also, mulches decay over the summer, washing soluble nutrients
> > > down to the vine roots, stimulating even more undesirable late growth.."
>
> > > "The vine bed goes through the winter with bare soil. *This allows frost to
> > > penetrate deeply into the ground, preventing early bud burst, and the
> > > consequent danger of frost damage, in the spring. *Dr. John McGrew of the
> > > USDA told me that he had two rows of vines along his driveway in Maryland.
> > > One was mulched overwinter and through the spring, and the other had bare
> > > soil. *the mulch kept the soil warmer, and the vine growth began there
> > > before it did in the unmulched bid. *This early growth was killed by late
> > > frosts while the bare=soil vines had no injury at all."
>
> > > > On Sep 8, 5:53*am, wrote:
> > > >> "But wood chips are
> > > >> not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. *What would be, is what
> > > >> comes off the vines themselves plus any additional material from the
> > > >> support in a natural condition. *"
>
> > > >> Wood chips are made mostly of carbon. Just like leaves on a vine. They
> > > >> don't rob nitrogen from the soil. They also don't put poisons into the
> > > >> soil in fact, if ypu mulched with wood chips from a b;ack walnut you
> > > >> would still see tremendous benefits.Wood chips have few seeds that is
> > > >> why it is a good mulch and when I say natuaral I should have said
> > > >> organic. I also notice that putting must out in the vineyard causes
> > > >> weed comprised of small grapevines.
>
> > > >> On Sep 4, 10:21*pm, spud > wrote:
>
> > > >> > Hi:
>
> > > >> > Hate to interupt this interesting ****ing match. *But wood chips are
> > > >> > not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. *What would be, is what
> > > >> > comes off the vines themselves plus any additional material from the
> > > >> > support in a natural condition.
>
> > > >> > I and SWMBO have never seen a wild grape in a conifer, though it may
> > > >> > occur. *But I have seen plenty in hardwoods. *So based on observation
> > > >> > a natural mulch would consist of grape leaves, canes, rotten grapes
> > > >> > and leaves from the host support.
>
> > > >> > I would be very careful with chips. *Conifers and all of their by
> > > >> > products tend to acidic, hardwoods to basic. *So if one is to use
> > > >> > other than grape by products for mulch then hardwoods might be the
> > > >> > best source. *Grape by products and hardwood leaves would more likely
> > > >> > be much better than chips.
>
> > > >> > In addition because conifers grow in generally tough conditions, ie
> > > >> > drought during the growing season they produce chemicals that inhibit
> > > >> > growth of other plants to reduce competition for soil nutrients, water
> > > >> > and sunlight.
>
> > > >> > Also I think the real benefit from mulch is the longterm incorporation
> > > >> > of organics in the soils which promote water, nutrient holding
> > > >> > capacity and better biotics for bugs, fungi and bacteria that can
> > > >> > contribute to over all health of the vineyard.
>
> > > >> > Most backyard vineyards around here grow grass right up to the vine
> > > >> > trunks. *Grass clippings are left in the vineyard along with leaves.
> > > >> > Some chip the prunings while others pile and burn. *No one I know uses
> > > >> > chips. * So dry farm, others irrigate, that is soild water capacity
> > > >> > dependent. *I see no issues with this in the health of the plant or
> > > >> > the grape nor any need to mulch.
>
> > > >> > Lastly the struggle arguement has traction for a good reason. *Fruit
> > > >> > is smaller making skin to juice ratios better for hearty reds. *In
> > > >> > addition ripening can and usually does occur sooner with the obvious
> > > >> > advatages.
>
> > > >> > Just my $0.02
>
> > > >> > Steve
> > > >> > Oregon
>
> > > >> > On Fri, 4 Sep 2009 07:20:50 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
> > > >> > >I personally use wood chips
> > > >> > >because I think it regulates better because it mirrors what occurs in
> > > >> > >nature more accurately, which is to breakdown and supply nutrients
> > > >> > >while forming a barrier to soak up excess water while also sealing in
> > > >> > >existing moisture.

wrote:

> Cox obviously has no experience with mulch. It's a good book for
> pruning and winemaking but he's clueless when i comes to growing
> grapes.

I think it is time for you to write your own book.

>
> "One was mulched overwinter and through the spring, and the other had
> bare
>> soil. Â*the mulch kept the soil warmer, and the vine growth began there
>> before it did in >> the unmulched bid. "
>
> This is totally opposite of what any rational human being would think.
> The mulch actually keeps the soil COOLER in the spring because it
> takes longer for the warmth to penetrate the mulched soil. I also
> don't have early bud break with mulched vines and I use pruning to
> delay bud break at least a week which saved me this year.

For at least the third time now: Please tell us where you grow your grapes
and what varieties you grow. Perhaps you are in one of those hot and dry
areas for which Cox makes a possible exception.

>
>
> On Sep 8, 7:37Â*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > Michael,
>>
>> > Here's an observation that I have made. The growers who use mulch are
>> > very happy with it and the growers who have absolutely no experience
>> > with it are saying it's bad. Like I said, just keep observing.
>>
>> From "From Vines to Vines" by Jeff Cox pp 54-55
>>
>> Mulching the area under the vines is not recommended for any except the
>> very hot and dry areas. Â*The mulch keeps the soil moist, which can
>> stimulate late vine growth - growth that will be weak, tender, and
>> immature heading into cold weather, with a much greater chance of
>> winterkill. Â*Such late growth takes carbohydrates that would better be
>> pumped into ripening grapes. Â*Also, mulches decay over the summer,
>> washing soluble nutrients down to the vine roots, stimulating even more
>> undesirable late growth."
>>
>> "The vine bed goes through the winter with bare soil. Â*This allows frost
>> to penetrate deeply into the ground, preventing early bud burst, and the
>> consequent danger of frost damage, in the spring. Â*Dr. John McGrew of the
>> USDA told me that he had two rows of vines along his driveway in
>> Maryland. One was mulched overwinter and through the spring, and the
>> other had bare soil. Â*the mulch kept the soil warmer, and the vine growth
>> began there before it did in the unmulched bid. Â*This early growth was
>> killed by late frosts while the bare=soil vines had no injury at all."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 8, 5:53Â*am, wrote:
>> >> "But wood chips are
>> >> not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. Â*What would be, is what
>> >> comes off the vines themselves plus any additional material from the
>> >> support in a natural condition. Â*"
>>
>> >> Wood chips are made mostly of carbon. Just like leaves on a vine. They
>> >> don't rob nitrogen from the soil. They also don't put poisons into the
>> >> soil in fact, if ypu mulched with wood chips from a b;ack walnut you
>> >> would still see tremendous benefits.Wood chips have few seeds that is
>> >> why it is a good mulch and when I say natuaral I should have said
>> >> organic. I also notice that putting must out in the vineyard causes
>> >> weed comprised of small grapevines.
>>
>> >> On Sep 4, 10:21Â*pm, spud > wrote:
>>
>> >> > Hi:
>>
>> >> > Hate to interupt this interesting ****ing match. Â*But wood chips are
>> >> > not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. Â*What would be, is what
>> >> > comes off the vines themselves plus any additional material from the
>> >> > support in a natural condition.
>>
>> >> > I and SWMBO have never seen a wild grape in a conifer, though it may
>> >> > occur. Â*But I have seen plenty in hardwoods. Â*So based on
>> >> > observation a natural mulch would consist of grape leaves, canes,
>> >> > rotten grapes and leaves from the host support.
>>
>> >> > I would be very careful with chips. Â*Conifers and all of their by
>> >> > products tend to acidic, hardwoods to basic. Â*So if one is to use
>> >> > other than grape by products for mulch then hardwoods might be the
>> >> > best source. Â*Grape by products and hardwood leaves would more
>> >> > likely be much better than chips.
>>
>> >> > In addition because conifers grow in generally tough conditions, ie
>> >> > drought during the growing season they produce chemicals that
>> >> > inhibit growth of other plants to reduce competition for soil
>> >> > nutrients, water and sunlight.
>>
>> >> > Also I think the real benefit from mulch is the longterm
>> >> > incorporation of organics in the soils which promote water, nutrient
>> >> > holding capacity and better biotics for bugs, fungi and bacteria
>> >> > that can contribute to over all health of the vineyard.
>>
>> >> > Most backyard vineyards around here grow grass right up to the vine
>> >> > trunks. Â*Grass clippings are left in the vineyard along with leaves.
>> >> > Some chip the prunings while others pile and burn. Â*No one I know
>> >> > uses chips. Â* So dry farm, others irrigate, that is soild water
>> >> > capacity dependent. Â*I see no issues with this in the health of the
>> >> > plant or the grape nor any need to mulch.
>>
>> >> > Lastly the struggle arguement has traction for a good reason. Â*Fruit
>> >> > is smaller making skin to juice ratios better for hearty reds. Â*In
>> >> > addition ripening can and usually does occur sooner with the obvious
>> >> > advatages.
>>
>> >> > Just my $0.02
>>
>> >> > Steve
>> >> > Oregon
>>
>> >> > On Fri, 4 Sep 2009 07:20:50 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
>> >> > >I personally use wood chips
>> >> > >because I think it regulates better because it mirrors what occurs
>> >> > >in nature more accurately, which is to breakdown and supply
>> >> > >nutrients while forming a barrier to soak up excess water while
>> >> > >also sealing in existing moisture.

wrote:

> Paul answer me one question. If "Dr." John McGrew took some cuttings
> off a vine in the spring and put them in a vase indoors, how is it
> that the buds break when they are totally disconnected from the roots?

That does not make any sense. You are talking about an entirely different
thing.

>
>
> On Sep 8, 8:41Â*am, wrote:
>> Cox obviously has no experience with mulch. It's a good book for
>> pruning and winemaking but he's clueless when i comes to growing
>> grapes.
>>
>> "One was mulched overwinter and through the spring, and the other had
>> bare
>>
>> > soil. Â*the mulch kept the soil warmer, and the vine growth began there
>> > before it did in the unmulched bid. "
>>
>> This is totally opposite of what any rational human being would think.
>> The mulch actually keeps the soil COOLER in the spring because it
>> takes longer for the warmth to penetrate the mulched soil. I also
>> don't have early bud break with mulched vines and I use pruning to
>> delay bud break at least a week which saved me this year.
>>
>> On Sep 8, 7:37Â*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > wrote:
>> > > Michael,
>>
>> > > Here's an observation that I have made. The growers who use mulch are
>> > > very happy with it and the growers who have absolutely no experience
>> > > with it are saying it's bad. Like I said, just keep observing.
>>
>> > From "From Vines to Vines" by Jeff Cox pp 54-55
>>
>> > Mulching the area under the vines is not recommended for any except the
>> > very hot and dry areas. Â*The mulch keeps the soil moist, which can
>> > stimulate late vine growth - growth that will be weak, tender, and
>> > immature heading into cold weather, with a much greater chance of
>> > winterkill. Â*Such late growth takes carbohydrates that would better be
>> > pumped into ripening grapes. Â*Also, mulches decay over the summer,
>> > washing soluble nutrients down to the vine roots, stimulating even more
>> > undesirable late growth."
>>
>> > "The vine bed goes through the winter with bare soil. Â*This allows
>> > frost to penetrate deeply into the ground, preventing early bud burst,
>> > and the consequent danger of frost damage, in the spring. Â*Dr. John
>> > McGrew of the USDA told me that he had two rows of vines along his
>> > driveway in Maryland. One was mulched overwinter and through the
>> > spring, and the other had bare soil. Â*the mulch kept the soil warmer,
>> > and the vine growth began there before it did in the unmulched bid.
>> > This early growth was killed by late frosts while the bare=soil vines
>> > had no injury at all."
>>
>> > > On Sep 8, 5:53Â*am, wrote:
>> > >> "But wood chips are
>> > >> not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. Â*What would be, is what
>> > >> comes off the vines themselves plus any additional material from the
>> > >> support in a natural condition. Â*"
>>
>> > >> Wood chips are made mostly of carbon. Just like leaves on a vine.
>> > >> They don't rob nitrogen from the soil. They also don't put poisons
>> > >> into the soil in fact, if ypu mulched with wood chips from a b;ack
>> > >> walnut you would still see tremendous benefits.Wood chips have few
>> > >> seeds that is why it is a good mulch and when I say natuaral I
>> > >> should have said organic. I also notice that putting must out in the
>> > >> vineyard causes weed comprised of small grapevines.
>>
>> > >> On Sep 4, 10:21Â*pm, spud > wrote:
>>
>> > >> > Hi:
>>
>> > >> > Hate to interupt this interesting ****ing match. Â*But wood chips
>> > >> > are not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. Â*What would be, is
>> > >> > what comes off the vines themselves plus any additional material
>> > >> > from the support in a natural condition.
>>
>> > >> > I and SWMBO have never seen a wild grape in a conifer, though it
>> > >> > may occur. Â*But I have seen plenty in hardwoods. Â*So based on
>> > >> > observation a natural mulch would consist of grape leaves, canes,
>> > >> > rotten grapes and leaves from the host support.
>>
>> > >> > I would be very careful with chips. Â*Conifers and all of their by
>> > >> > products tend to acidic, hardwoods to basic. Â*So if one is to use
>> > >> > other than grape by products for mulch then hardwoods might be the
>> > >> > best source. Â*Grape by products and hardwood leaves would more
>> > >> > likely be much better than chips.
>>
>> > >> > In addition because conifers grow in generally tough conditions,
>> > >> > ie drought during the growing season they produce chemicals that
>> > >> > inhibit growth of other plants to reduce competition for soil
>> > >> > nutrients, water and sunlight.
>>
>> > >> > Also I think the real benefit from mulch is the longterm
>> > >> > incorporation of organics in the soils which promote water,
>> > >> > nutrient holding capacity and better biotics for bugs, fungi and
>> > >> > bacteria that can contribute to over all health of the vineyard.
>>
>> > >> > Most backyard vineyards around here grow grass right up to the
>> > >> > vine trunks. Â*Grass clippings are left in the vineyard along with
>> > >> > leaves. Some chip the prunings while others pile and burn. Â*No one
>> > >> > I know uses chips. Â* So dry farm, others irrigate, that is soild
>> > >> > water capacity dependent. Â*I see no issues with this in the health
>> > >> > of the plant or the grape nor any need to mulch.
>>
>> > >> > Lastly the struggle arguement has traction for a good reason.
>> > >> > Fruit is smaller making skin to juice ratios better for hearty
>> > >> > reds. Â*In addition ripening can and usually does occur sooner with
>> > >> > the obvious advatages.
>>
>> > >> > Just my $0.02
>>
>> > >> > Steve
>> > >> > Oregon
>>
>> > >> > On Fri, 4 Sep 2009 07:20:50 -0700 (PDT),
>> > >> > wrote:
>> > >> > >I personally use wood chips
>> > >> > >because I think it regulates better because it mirrors what
>> > >> > >occurs in nature more accurately, which is to breakdown and
>> > >> > >supply nutrients while forming a barrier to soak up excess water
>> > >> > >while also sealing in existing moisture.

wrote:

> Paul,
>
> BTW, black plastic or black screen is considered mulch. That is
> probably what "Dr." John McGrew used. Of course black heats up faster
> than regular dirt. I'm not advocating that. I'm advocating wood chip
> mulch.

You have already gotten feedback on wood chip mulch.

If you think it works for YOU, then fine, go for it. When you advise
others, it is a good idea to see if what seems to work for you would work
for others in an entirely different environment that is entirely different.

This whole debate began with you telling Michael who lives in England and
already has extremely vigorous vines to mulch. In my opinion, you are
trying to paint with a really broad brush and perhaps the wrong brush at
that.

>
>
> On Sep 8, 8:52Â*am, wrote:
>> Paul answer me one question. If "Dr." John McGrew took some cuttings
>> off a vine in the spring and put them in a vase indoors, how is it
>> that the buds break when they are totally disconnected from the roots?
>>
>> On Sep 8, 8:41Â*am, wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Cox obviously has no experience with mulch. It's a good book for
>> > pruning and winemaking but he's clueless when i comes to growing
>> > grapes.
>>
>> > "One was mulched overwinter and through the spring, and the other had
>> > bare
>>
>> > > soil. Â*the mulch kept the soil warmer, and the vine growth began
>> > > there before it did in the unmulched bid. "
>>
>> > This is totally opposite of what any rational human being would think.
>> > The mulch actually keeps the soil COOLER in the spring because it
>> > takes longer for the warmth to penetrate the mulched soil. I also
>> > don't have early bud break with mulched vines and I use pruning to
>> > delay bud break at least a week which saved me this year.
>>
>> > On Sep 8, 7:37Â*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > > Michael,
>>
>> > > > Here's an observation that I have made. The growers who use mulch
>> > > > are very happy with it and the growers who have absolutely no
>> > > > experience with it are saying it's bad. Like I said, just keep
>> > > > observing.
>>
>> > > From "From Vines to Vines" by Jeff Cox pp 54-55
>>
>> > > Mulching the area under the vines is not recommended for any except
>> > > the very hot and dry areas. Â*The mulch keeps the soil moist, which
>> > > can stimulate late vine growth - growth that will be weak, tender,
>> > > and immature heading into cold weather, with a much greater chance of
>> > > winterkill. Â*Such late growth takes carbohydrates that would better
>> > > be pumped into ripening grapes. Â*Also, mulches decay over the summer,
>> > > washing soluble nutrients down to the vine roots, stimulating even
>> > > more undesirable late growth."
>>
>> > > "The vine bed goes through the winter with bare soil. Â*This allows
>> > > frost to penetrate deeply into the ground, preventing early bud
>> > > burst, and the consequent danger of frost damage, in the spring. Â*Dr.
>> > > John McGrew of the USDA told me that he had two rows of vines along
>> > > his driveway in Maryland. One was mulched overwinter and through the
>> > > spring, and the other had bare soil. Â*the mulch kept the soil warmer,
>> > > and the vine growth began there before it did in the unmulched bid.
>> > > This early growth was killed by late frosts while the bare=soil vines
>> > > had no injury at all."
>>
>> > > > On Sep 8, 5:53Â*am, wrote:
>> > > >> "But wood chips are
>> > > >> not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. Â*What would be, is what
>> > > >> comes off the vines themselves plus any additional material from
>> > > >> the support in a natural condition. Â*"
>>
>> > > >> Wood chips are made mostly of carbon. Just like leaves on a vine.
>> > > >> They don't rob nitrogen from the soil. They also don't put poisons
>> > > >> into the soil in fact, if ypu mulched with wood chips from a b;ack
>> > > >> walnut you would still see tremendous benefits.Wood chips have few
>> > > >> seeds that is why it is a good mulch and when I say natuaral I
>> > > >> should have said organic. I also notice that putting must out in
>> > > >> the vineyard causes weed comprised of small grapevines.
>>
>> > > >> On Sep 4, 10:21Â*pm, spud > wrote:
>>
>> > > >> > Hi:
>>
>> > > >> > Hate to interupt this interesting ****ing match. Â*But wood chips
>> > > >> > are not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. Â*What would be, is
>> > > >> > what comes off the vines themselves plus any additional material
>> > > >> > from the support in a natural condition.
>>
>> > > >> > I and SWMBO have never seen a wild grape in a conifer, though it
>> > > >> > may occur. Â*But I have seen plenty in hardwoods. Â*So based on
>> > > >> > observation a natural mulch would consist of grape leaves,
>> > > >> > canes, rotten grapes and leaves from the host support.
>>
>> > > >> > I would be very careful with chips. Â*Conifers and all of their
>> > > >> > by products tend to acidic, hardwoods to basic. Â*So if one is to
>> > > >> > use other than grape by products for mulch then hardwoods might
>> > > >> > be the best source. Â*Grape by products and hardwood leaves would
>> > > >> > more likely be much better than chips.
>>
>> > > >> > In addition because conifers grow in generally tough conditions,
>> > > >> > ie drought during the growing season they produce chemicals that
>> > > >> > inhibit growth of other plants to reduce competition for soil
>> > > >> > nutrients, water and sunlight.
>>
>> > > >> > Also I think the real benefit from mulch is the longterm
>> > > >> > incorporation of organics in the soils which promote water,
>> > > >> > nutrient holding capacity and better biotics for bugs, fungi and
>> > > >> > bacteria that can contribute to over all health of the vineyard.
>>
>> > > >> > Most backyard vineyards around here grow grass right up to the
>> > > >> > vine trunks. Â*Grass clippings are left in the vineyard along
>> > > >> > with leaves. Some chip the prunings while others pile and burn.
>> > > >> > No one I know uses chips. Â* So dry farm, others irrigate, that
>> > > >> > is soild water capacity dependent. Â*I see no issues with this in
>> > > >> > the health of the plant or the grape nor any need to mulch.
>>
>> > > >> > Lastly the struggle arguement has traction for a good reason.
>> > > >> > Fruit is smaller making skin to juice ratios better for hearty
>> > > >> > reds. Â*In addition ripening can and usually does occur sooner
>> > > >> > with the obvious advatages.
>>
>> > > >> > Just my $0.02
>>
>> > > >> > Steve
>> > > >> > Oregon
>>
>> > > >> > On Fri, 4 Sep 2009 07:20:50 -0700 (PDT),
>> > > >> > wrote:
>> > > >> > >I personally use wood chips
>> > > >> > >because I think it regulates better because it mirrors what
>> > > >> > >occurs in nature more accurately, which is to breakdown and
>> > > >> > >supply nutrients while forming a barrier to soak up excess
>> > > >> > >water while also sealing in existing moisture.

"You have already gotten feedback on wood chip mulch."


I got negaitive regurgitation on mulch. Myth's based on ignorance and
a lack of personal experience. I got no feed back.



On Sep 8, 9:40*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > Paul,
>
> > BTW, black plastic or black screen is considered mulch. That is
> > probably what "Dr." John McGrew used. Of course black heats up faster
> > than regular dirt. I'm not advocating that. I'm advocating wood chip
> > mulch.
>
> You have already gotten feedback on wood chip mulch.
>
> If you think it works for YOU, then fine, go for it. *When you advise
> others, it is a good idea to see if what seems to work for you would work
> for others in an entirely different environment that is entirely different.

wrote:

> "You have already gotten feedback on wood chip mulch."
>
>
> I got negaitive regurgitation on mulch. Myth's based on ignorance and
> a lack of personal experience. I got no feed back.

Seems to me you have gained more knowledgeable feedback than what you have
sown. :-)

Just curious; when you write your book on mulching vineyards, are you going
to use your alias of "doublesb" or your real name?

Give me some feedback. Tell me where you grow your grapes and what
varieties you grow.

>
>
>
> On Sep 8, 9:40Â*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > Paul,
>>
>> > BTW, black plastic or black screen is considered mulch. That is
>> > probably what "Dr." John McGrew used. Of course black heats up faster
>> > than regular dirt. I'm not advocating that. I'm advocating wood chip
>> > mulch.
>>
>> You have already gotten feedback on wood chip mulch.
>>
>> If you think it works for YOU, then fine, go for it. Â*When you advise
>> others, it is a good idea to see if what seems to work for you would work
>> for others in an entirely different environment that is entirely
>> different.
>>
>> This whole debate began with you telling Michael who lives in England and
>> already has extremely vigorous vines to mulch. Â*In my opinion, you are
>> trying to paint with a really broad brush and perhaps the wrong brush at
>> that.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 8, 8:52Â*am, wrote:
>> >> Paul answer me one question. If "Dr." John McGrew took some cuttings
>> >> off a vine in the spring and put them in a vase indoors, how is it
>> >> that the buds break when they are totally disconnected from the roots?
>>
>> >> On Sep 8, 8:41Â*am, wrote:
>>
>> >> > Cox obviously has no experience with mulch. It's a good book for
>> >> > pruning and winemaking but he's clueless when i comes to growing
>> >> > grapes.
>>
>> >> > "One was mulched overwinter and through the spring, and the other
>> >> > had bare
>>
>> >> > > soil. Â*the mulch kept the soil warmer, and the vine growth began
>> >> > > there before it did in the unmulched bid. "
>>
>> >> > This is totally opposite of what any rational human being would
>> >> > think. The mulch actually keeps the soil COOLER in the spring
>> >> > because it takes longer for the warmth to penetrate the mulched
>> >> > soil. I also don't have early bud break with mulched vines and I use
>> >> > pruning to delay bud break at least a week which saved me this year.
>>
>> >> > On Sep 8, 7:37Â*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
>> >> > wrote:
>>
>> >> > > wrote:
>> >> > > > Michael,
>>
>> >> > > > Here's an observation that I have made. The growers who use
>> >> > > > mulch are very happy with it and the growers who have absolutely
>> >> > > > no experience with it are saying it's bad. Like I said, just
>> >> > > > keep observing.
>>
>> >> > > From "From Vines to Vines" by Jeff Cox pp 54-55
>>
>> >> > > Mulching the area under the vines is not recommended for any
>> >> > > except the very hot and dry areas. Â*The mulch keeps the soil
>> >> > > moist, which can stimulate late vine growth - growth that will be
>> >> > > weak, tender, and immature heading into cold weather, with a much
>> >> > > greater chance of winterkill. Â*Such late growth takes
>> >> > > carbohydrates that would better be pumped into ripening grapes.
>> >> > > Also, mulches decay over the summer, washing soluble nutrients
>> >> > > down to the vine roots, stimulating even more undesirable late
>> >> > > growth."
>>
>> >> > > "The vine bed goes through the winter with bare soil. Â*This allows
>> >> > > frost to penetrate deeply into the ground, preventing early bud
>> >> > > burst, and the consequent danger of frost damage, in the spring.
>> >> > > Dr. John McGrew of the USDA told me that he had two rows of vines
>> >> > > along his driveway in Maryland. One was mulched overwinter and
>> >> > > through the spring, and the other had bare soil. Â*the mulch kept
>> >> > > the soil warmer, and the vine growth began there before it did in
>> >> > > the unmulched bid. This early growth was killed by late frosts
>> >> > > while the bare=soil vines had no injury at all."
>>
>> >> > > > On Sep 8, 5:53Â*am, wrote:
>> >> > > >> "But wood chips are
>> >> > > >> not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. Â*What would be, is
>> >> > > >> what comes off the vines themselves plus any additional
>> >> > > >> material from the support in a natural condition. Â*"
>>
>> >> > > >> Wood chips are made mostly of carbon. Just like leaves on a
>> >> > > >> vine. They don't rob nitrogen from the soil. They also don't
>> >> > > >> put poisons into the soil in fact, if ypu mulched with wood
>> >> > > >> chips from a b;ack walnut you would still see tremendous
>> >> > > >> benefits.Wood chips have few seeds that is why it is a good
>> >> > > >> mulch and when I say natuaral I should have said organic. I
>> >> > > >> also notice that putting must out in the vineyard causes weed
>> >> > > >> comprised of small grapevines.
>>
>> >> > > >> On Sep 4, 10:21Â*pm, spud > wrote:
>>
>> >> > > >> > Hi:
>>
>> >> > > >> > Hate to interupt this interesting ****ing match. Â*But wood
>> >> > > >> > chips are not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. Â*What
>> >> > > >> > would be, is what comes off the vines themselves plus any
>> >> > > >> > additional material from the support in a natural condition.
>>
>> >> > > >> > I and SWMBO have never seen a wild grape in a conifer, though
>> >> > > >> > it may occur. Â*But I have seen plenty in hardwoods. Â*So based
>> >> > > >> > on observation a natural mulch would consist of grape leaves,
>> >> > > >> > canes, rotten grapes and leaves from the host support.
>>
>> >> > > >> > I would be very careful with chips. Â*Conifers and all of
>> >> > > >> > their by products tend to acidic, hardwoods to basic. Â*So if
>> >> > > >> > one is to use other than grape by products for mulch then
>> >> > > >> > hardwoods might be the best source. Â*Grape by products and
>> >> > > >> > hardwood leaves would more likely be much better than chips.
>>
>> >> > > >> > In addition because conifers grow in generally tough
>> >> > > >> > conditions, ie drought during the growing season they produce
>> >> > > >> > chemicals that inhibit growth of other plants to reduce
>> >> > > >> > competition for soil nutrients, water and sunlight.
>>
>> >> > > >> > Also I think the real benefit from mulch is the longterm
>> >> > > >> > incorporation of organics in the soils which promote water,
>> >> > > >> > nutrient holding capacity and better biotics for bugs, fungi
>> >> > > >> > and bacteria that can contribute to over all health of the
>> >> > > >> > vineyard.
>>
>> >> > > >> > Most backyard vineyards around here grow grass right up to
>> >> > > >> > the vine trunks. Â*Grass clippings are left in the vineyard
>> >> > > >> > along with leaves. Some chip the prunings while others pile
>> >> > > >> > and burn. No one I know uses chips. Â* So dry farm, others
>> >> > > >> > irrigate, that is soild water capacity dependent. Â*I see no
>> >> > > >> > issues with this in the health of the plant or the grape nor
>> >> > > >> > any need to mulch.
>>
>> >> > > >> > Lastly the struggle arguement has traction for a good reason.
>> >> > > >> > Fruit is smaller making skin to juice ratios better for
>> >> > > >> > hearty reds. Â*In addition ripening can and usually does occur
>> >> > > >> > sooner with the obvious advatages.
>>
>> >> > > >> > Just my $0.02
>>
>> >> > > >> > Steve
>> >> > > >> > Oregon
>>
>> >> > > >> > On Fri, 4 Sep 2009 07:20:50 -0700 (PDT),
>> >> > > >> > wrote:
>> >> > > >> > >I personally use wood chips
>> >> > > >> > >because I think it regulates better because it mirrors what
>> >> > > >> > >occurs in nature more accurately, which is to breakdown and
>> >> > > >> > >supply nutrients while forming a barrier to soak up excess
>> >> > > >> > >water while also sealing in existing moisture.

On Sep 8, 9:52*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > "You have already gotten feedback on wood chip mulch."
>
> > I got negaitive regurgitation on mulch. Myth's based on ignorance and
> > a lack of personal experience. I got no feed back.
>
> Seems to me you have gained more knowledgeable feedback than what you have
> sown. :-)
>
> Just curious; when you write your book on mulching vineyards, are you going
> to use your alias of "doublesb" or your real name?
>
> Give me some feedback. *Tell me where you grow your grapes and what
> varieties you grow.
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 8, 9:40*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > Paul,
>
> >> > BTW, black plastic or black screen is considered mulch. That is
> >> > probably what "Dr." John McGrew used. Of course black heats up faster
> >> > than regular dirt. I'm not advocating that. I'm advocating wood chip
> >> > mulch.
>
> >> You have already gotten feedback on wood chip mulch.
>
> >> If you think it works for YOU, then fine, go for it. *When you advise
> >> others, it is a good idea to see if what seems to work for you would work
> >> for others in an entirely different environment that is entirely
> >> different.
>
> >> This whole debate began with you telling Michael who lives in England and
> >> already has extremely vigorous vines to mulch. *In my opinion, you are
> >> trying to paint with a really broad brush and perhaps the wrong brush at
> >> that.
>
> >> > On Sep 8, 8:52*am, wrote:
> >> >> Paul answer me one question. If "Dr." John McGrew took some cuttings
> >> >> off a vine in the spring and put them in a vase indoors, how is it
> >> >> that the buds break when they are totally disconnected from the roots?
>
> >> >> On Sep 8, 8:41*am, wrote:
>
> >> >> > Cox obviously has no experience with mulch. It's a good book for
> >> >> > pruning and winemaking but he's clueless when i comes to growing
> >> >> > grapes.
>
> >> >> > "One was mulched overwinter and through the spring, and the other
> >> >> > had bare
>
> >> >> > > soil. *the mulch kept the soil warmer, and the vine growth began
> >> >> > > there before it did in the unmulched bid. "
>
> >> >> > This is totally opposite of what any rational human being would
> >> >> > think. The mulch actually keeps the soil COOLER in the spring
> >> >> > because it takes longer for the warmth to penetrate the mulched
> >> >> > soil. I also don't have early bud break with mulched vines and I use
> >> >> > pruning to delay bud break at least a week which saved me this year.
>
> >> >> > On Sep 8, 7:37*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> >> >> > wrote:
>
> >> >> > > wrote:
> >> >> > > > Michael,
>
> >> >> > > > Here's an observation that I have made. The growers who use
> >> >> > > > mulch are very happy with it and the growers who have absolutely
> >> >> > > > no experience with it are saying it's bad. Like I said, just
> >> >> > > > keep observing.
>
> >> >> > > From "From Vines to Vines" by Jeff Cox pp 54-55
>
> >> >> > > Mulching the area under the vines is not recommended for any
> >> >> > > except the very hot and dry areas. *The mulch keeps the soil
> >> >> > > moist, which can stimulate late vine growth - growth that will be
> >> >> > > weak, tender, and immature heading into cold weather, with a much
> >> >> > > greater chance of winterkill. *Such late growth takes
> >> >> > > carbohydrates that would better be pumped into ripening grapes.
> >> >> > > Also, mulches decay over the summer, washing soluble nutrients
> >> >> > > down to the vine roots, stimulating even more undesirable late
> >> >> > > growth."
>
> >> >> > > "The vine bed goes through the winter with bare soil. *This allows
> >> >> > > frost to penetrate deeply into the ground, preventing early bud
> >> >> > > burst, and the consequent danger of frost damage, in the spring..
> >> >> > > Dr. John McGrew of the USDA told me that he had two rows of vines
> >> >> > > along his driveway in Maryland. One was mulched overwinter and
> >> >> > > through the spring, and the other had bare soil. *the mulch kept
> >> >> > > the soil warmer, and the vine growth began there before it did in
> >> >> > > the unmulched bid. This early growth was killed by late frosts
> >> >> > > while the bare=soil vines had no injury at all."
>
> >> >> > > > On Sep 8, 5:53*am, wrote:
> >> >> > > >> "But wood chips are
> >> >> > > >> not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. *What would be, is
> >> >> > > >> what comes off the vines themselves plus any additional
> >> >> > > >> material from the support in a natural condition. *"
>
> >> >> > > >> Wood chips are made mostly of carbon. Just like leaves on a
> >> >> > > >> vine. They don't rob nitrogen from the soil. They also don't
> >> >> > > >> put poisons into the soil in fact, if ypu mulched with wood
> >> >> > > >> chips from a b;ack walnut you would still see tremendous
> >> >> > > >> benefits.Wood chips have few seeds that is why it is a good
> >> >> > > >> mulch and when I say natuaral I should have said organic. I
> >> >> > > >> also notice that putting must out in thevineyardcauses weed
> >> >> > > >> comprised of small grapevines.
>
> >> >> > > >> On Sep 4, 10:21*pm, spud > wrote:
>
> >> >> > > >> > Hi:
>
> >> >> > > >> > Hate to interupt this interesting ****ing match. *But wood
> >> >> > > >> > chips are not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. *What
> >> >> > > >> > would be, is what comes off the vines themselves plus any
> >> >> > > >> > additional material from the support in a natural condition.

On Sep 24, 10:16*pm, jay > wrote:
> On Sep 8, 9:52*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > > "You have already gotten feedback on wood chip mulch."
>
> > > I got negaitive regurgitation on mulch. Myth's based on ignorance and
> > > a lack of personal experience. I got no feed back.
>
> > Seems to me you have gained more knowledgeable feedback than what you have
> > sown. :-)
>
> > Just curious; when you write your book on mulching vineyards, are you going
> > to use your alias of "doublesb" or your real name?
>
> > Give me some feedback. *Tell me where you grow your grapes and what
> > varieties you grow.
>
> > > On Sep 8, 9:40*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > Paul,
>
> > >> > BTW, black plastic or black screen is considered mulch. That is
> > >> > probably what "Dr." John McGrew used. Of course black heats up faster
> > >> > than regular dirt. I'm not advocating that. I'm advocating wood chip
> > >> > mulch.
>
> > >> You have already gotten feedback on wood chip mulch.
>
> > >> If you think it works for YOU, then fine, go for it. *When you advise
> > >> others, it is a good idea to see if what seems to work for you would work
> > >> for others in an entirely different environment that is entirely
> > >> different.
>
> > >> This whole debate began with you telling Michael who lives in England and
> > >> already has extremely vigorous vines to mulch. *In my opinion, you are
> > >> trying to paint with a really broad brush and perhaps the wrong brush at
> > >> that.
>
> > >> > On Sep 8, 8:52*am, wrote:
> > >> >> Paul answer me one question. If "Dr." John McGrew took some cuttings
> > >> >> off a vine in the spring and put them in a vase indoors, how is it
> > >> >> that the buds break when they are totally disconnected from the roots?
>
> > >> >> On Sep 8, 8:41*am, wrote:
>
> > >> >> > Cox obviously has no experience with mulch. It's a good book for
> > >> >> > pruning and winemaking but he's clueless when i comes to growing
> > >> >> > grapes.
>
> > >> >> > "One was mulched overwinter and through the spring, and the other
> > >> >> > had bare
>
> > >> >> > > soil. *the mulch kept the soil warmer, and the vine growth began
> > >> >> > > there before it did in the unmulched bid. "
>
> > >> >> > This is totally opposite of what any rational human being would
> > >> >> > think. The mulch actually keeps the soil COOLER in the spring
> > >> >> > because it takes longer for the warmth to penetrate the mulched
> > >> >> > soil. I also don't have early bud break with mulched vines and I use
> > >> >> > pruning to delay bud break at least a week which saved me this year.
>
> > >> >> > On Sep 8, 7:37*am, "Paul E. Lehmann" >
> > >> >> > wrote:
>
> > >> >> > > wrote:
> > >> >> > > > Michael,
>
> > >> >> > > > Here's an observation that I have made. The growers who use
> > >> >> > > > mulch are very happy with it and the growers who have absolutely
> > >> >> > > > no experience with it are saying it's bad. Like I said, just
> > >> >> > > > keep observing.
>
> > >> >> > > From "From Vines to Vines" by Jeff Cox pp 54-55
>
> > >> >> > > Mulching the area under the vines is not recommended for any
> > >> >> > > except the very hot and dry areas. *The mulch keeps the soil
> > >> >> > > moist, which can stimulate late vine growth - growth that will be
> > >> >> > > weak, tender, and immature heading into cold weather, with a much
> > >> >> > > greater chance of winterkill. *Such late growth takes
> > >> >> > > carbohydrates that would better be pumped into ripening grapes.
> > >> >> > > Also, mulches decay over the summer, washing soluble nutrients
> > >> >> > > down to the vine roots, stimulating even more undesirable late
> > >> >> > > growth."
>
> > >> >> > > "The vine bed goes through the winter with bare soil. *This allows
> > >> >> > > frost to penetrate deeply into the ground, preventing early bud
> > >> >> > > burst, and the consequent danger of frost damage, in the spring.
> > >> >> > > Dr. John McGrew of the USDA told me that he had two rows of vines
> > >> >> > > along his driveway in Maryland. One was mulched overwinter and
> > >> >> > > through the spring, and the other had bare soil. *the mulch kept
> > >> >> > > the soil warmer, and the vine growth began there before it did in
> > >> >> > > the unmulched bid. This early growth was killed by late frosts
> > >> >> > > while the bare=soil vines had no injury at all."
>
> > >> >> > > > On Sep 8, 5:53*am, wrote:
> > >> >> > > >> "But wood chips are
> > >> >> > > >> not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. *What would be, is
> > >> >> > > >> what comes off the vines themselves plus any additional
> > >> >> > > >> material from the support in a natural condition. *"
>
> > >> >> > > >> Wood chips are made mostly of carbon. Just like leaves on a
> > >> >> > > >> vine. They don't rob nitrogen from the soil. They also don't
> > >> >> > > >> put poisons into the soil in fact, if ypu mulched with wood
> > >> >> > > >> chips from a b;ack walnut you would still see tremendous
> > >> >> > > >> benefits.Wood chips have few seeds that is why it is a good
> > >> >> > > >> mulch and when I say natuaral I should have said organic. I
> > >> >> > > >> also notice that putting must out in thevineyardcauses weed
> > >> >> > > >> comprised of small grapevines.
>
> > >> >> > > >> On Sep 4, 10:21*pm, spud > wrote:
>
> > >> >> > > >> > Hi:
>
> > >> >> > > >> > Hate to interupt this interesting ****ing match. *But wood
> > >> >> > > >> > chips are not likely the 'natural' mulch for vines. *What
> > >> >> > > >> > would be, is what comes off the vines themselves plus any
> > >> >> > > >> > additional material from the support in a natural condition.
>
> > >> >> > > >> > I and SWMBO have never seen a wild grape in a conifer, though
> > >> >> > > >> > it may occur. *But I have seen plenty in hardwoods. *So based
> > >> >> > > >> > on observation a natural mulch would consist of grape leaves,
> > >> >> > > >> > canes, rotten grapes and leaves from the host support.
>
> > >> >> > > >> > I would be very careful with chips. *Conifers and all of
> > >> >> > > >> > their by products tend to acidic, hardwoods to basic. *So if
> > >> >> > > >> > one is to use other than grape by products for mulch then
> > >> >> > > >> > hardwoods might be the best source. *Grape by products and
> > >> >> > > >> > hardwood leaves would more likely be much better than chips.
>
> > >> >> > > >> > In addition because conifers grow in generally tough
> > >> >> > > >> > conditions, ie drought during the growing season they produce
> > >> >> > > >> > chemicals that inhibit growth of other plants to reduce
> > >> >> > > >> > competition for soil nutrients, water and sunlight.
>
> > >> >> > > >> > Also I think the real benefit from mulch is the longterm
> > >> >> > > >> > incorporation of organics in the soils which promote water,
> > >> >> > > >> > nutrient holding capacity and better biotics for bugs, fungi
> > >> >> > > >> > and bacteria that can contribute to over all health of the
> > >> >> > > >> >vineyard.
>
> > >> >> > > >> > Most backyard vineyards around here grow grass right up to
> > >> >> > > >> > the vine trunks. *Grass clippings are left in thevineyard
> > >> >> > > >> > along with leaves. Some chip the prunings while others pile
> > >> >> > > >> > and burn. No one I know uses chips. * So dry farm, others
> > >> >> > > >> > irrigate, that is soild water capacity dependent. *I see no
> > >> >> > > >> > issues with this in the health of the plant or the grape nor
> > >> >> > > >> > any need to mulch.
>
> > >> >> > > >> > Lastly the struggle arguement has traction for a good reason.
> > >> >> > > >> > Fruit is smaller making skin to juice ratios better for
> > >> >> > > >> > hearty reds. *In addition ripening can and usually does occur
> > >> >> > > >> > sooner with the obvious advatages.
>
> > >> >> > > >> > Just my $0.02
>
> > >> >> > > >> > Steve
> > >> >> > > >> > Oregon
>
> > >> >> > > >> > On Fri, 4 Sep 2009 07:20:50 -0700 (PDT),
> > >> >> > > >> > wrote:
> > >> >> > > >> > >I personally use wood chips
> > >> >> > > >> > >because I think it regulates better because it mirrors what
> > >> >> > > >> > >occurs in nature more accurately, which is to breakdown and
> > >> >> > > >> > >supply nutrients while forming a barrier to soak up excess
> > >> >> > > >> > >water while also sealing in existing moisture.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> This guy would have been kicked off most boards by now, if you don't
> have a clue what you are talking about keep your mouth shut...doesnt
> this board have an administrator?- Hide quoted text -


oh, and by the way I am Jason, just ordered about 400 vines to grow in
Yelm, Wa , have read from Vines to Wines front to back and The Grape
Grower but keep my mouth shut until I have produced a few good
vintages.

jay wrote:
>
> This guy would have been kicked off most boards by now, if you don't
> have a clue what you are talking about keep your mouth shut...doesnt
> this board have an administrator?

jay - this isn't a "board" (thankfully). This is usenet ...