Winemaking (rec.crafts.winemaking) Discussion of the process, recipes, tips, techniques and general exchange of lore on the process, methods and history of wine making. Includes traditional grape wines, sparkling wines & champagnes.

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Default wine taste mystery too ripe or jammy

Hello
I need some help in troublshooting my wines fault.

In 2007 I made an excellent Baco Noir from good looking grapes; deep
purple color, excellent taste and full body. Too bad I gave most of
it away.
Same year I also made Pinot Noir, there was som enoticeable rot in
some of the berries in most clusters. The wine color was light brown
on the edges but looked fine other than that but it did not taste like
pinot noir. It tasted funny. It was not acetic, maybe jammy or over
ripe or slight rot. Non one liked it so I am stuck with it.

In 2008 I made another Baco Noir, the year was colder and wetter so
the grapes were picked later in the year and there was noticeable rot
on some of the berries in most cluaters. I am now cold stabilizing
the wine and tasted it the other day. I was surprised to find it
didn't taste at all like the Baco Noir from 2007 it tasted almost
identical to the Pinot Noir I made in 2007. (not acedic, jammy, funny
taste, slight brown color on the edges).

Is this funny tasting wine the result of grapes that were infected
with rot? Or were they just overripe grapes? Or ...

Thanks
Joe

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Default wine taste mystery too ripe or jammy

On Jan 24, 11:32*am, Pino > wrote:
> Hello
> I need some help in troublshooting my wines fault.
>
> In 2007 I made an excellent Baco Noir from good looking grapes; deep
> purple color, excellent taste and full body. *Too bad I gave most of
> it away.
> Same year I also made Pinot Noir, there was som enoticeable rot in
> some of the berries in most clusters. *The wine color was light brown
> on the edges but looked fine other than that but it did not taste like
> pinot noir. *It tasted funny. *It was not acetic, maybe jammy or over
> ripe or slight rot. *Non one liked it so I am stuck with it.
>
> In 2008 I made another Baco Noir, the year was colder and wetter so
> the grapes were picked later in the year and there was noticeable rot
> on some of the berries in most cluaters. *I am now cold stabilizing
> the wine and tasted it the other day. *I was surprised to find it
> didn't taste at all like the Baco Noir from 2007 it tasted almost
> identical to the Pinot Noir I made in 2007. *(not acedic, jammy, funny
> taste, slight brown color on the edges).
>
> Is this funny tasting wine the result of grapes that were infected
> with rot? *Or were they just overripe grapes? *Or ...
>
> Thanks
> Joe


Joe, brown edges sounds like it's oxidized, how do you ferment and how
much sulfite are you using and when? Rot increases the need for
sulfites. You may be able to save this with skim milk if its
oxidized.

I found out this year that I need to treat my Grenache Rose as a white
and get it away from air ASAP, mine was a bit off.
Joe

Joe
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Default wine taste mystery too ripe or jammy

I have been moving away from adding sulfite until after MLF.
I usually innoculate 2 months after primary fermentation. The malo
innoculum I use is to be applied after fermentation is complete and of
course MLF does not do well with sulfites.

How would you apply the skim milk tratment? I have a 54L and 25L of
red wine.

thanks
Joe

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Default wine taste mystery too ripe or jammy

On Jan 24, 2:27*pm, Pino > wrote:
> I have been moving away from adding sulfite until after MLF.
> I usually innoculate 2 months after primary fermentation. *The malo
> innoculum I use is to be applied after fermentation is complete and of
> course MLF does not do well with sulfites.
>
> How would you apply the skim milk tratment? *I have a 54L and 25L of
> red wine.
>
> thanks
> Joe


4 ounces skim milk per 5 gallons is what some suggest; you should do
trials on a bottle first though. You want to use the minimum
possible. Get the wine swirling as you add it, if you have a syringe
it's easier to add.

Are you keeping the container full since you aren't sulfiting? Maybe
you just don't like the results of MLF, I don't use it often. I did
it one time in a Chanceller and hated it.

Joe
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Default wine taste mystery too ripe or jammy

Greetings to all , and if I may steer this slightly away from the topic....

Skim milk? Really? please explain! I'm more than curious now...
regards, bobdrob



"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
...
On Jan 24, 2:27 pm, Pino > wrote:
> I have been moving away from adding sulfite until after MLF.
> I usually innoculate 2 months after primary fermentation. The malo
> innoculum I use is to be applied after fermentation is complete and of
> course MLF does not do well with sulfites.
>
> How would you apply the skim milk tratment? I have a 54L and 25L of
> red wine.
>
> thanks
> Joe


4 ounces skim milk per 5 gallons is what some suggest; you should do
trials on a bottle first though. You want to use the minimum
possible. Get the wine swirling as you add it, if you have a syringe
it's easier to add.

Are you keeping the container full since you aren't sulfiting? Maybe
you just don't like the results of MLF, I don't use it often. I did
it one time in a Chanceller and hated it.

Joe




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Default wine taste mystery too ripe or jammy

By the way, have you taken a residual sugar measurement? What was
your sugar level and acidity when you started?

Here in the NW, I often get grapes with a little rot in them, and
they've never resulted in a jammy flavor. I've always assigned that
flavor to being over-ripe or incomplete fermentation.
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Default wine taste mystery too ripe or jammy

Casein is a protein, and it is used to remove phenolic materials including
tannin, excessive oak character and some bitter flavors from wine.
Sometimes casein is used to remove small amounts of unwanted color from
blush wines, and it is often used to remove the brownish tinge from oxidized
white wines. Milk contains casein and "a half pint of skimmed milk in 5
gallons of wine" is a traditional fining treatment for white wine.

Casein is difficult to mix with wine, so winemakers prefer to use this
material in the form of potassium caseinate. Even then, casein solutions
are not very effective when stirred directly into wine because the casein
reacts very quickly with acids in the wine. Large lumps are formed and the
lumps of casein do little more than settle to the bottom of the container.
A better method is to inject the casein solution or the skim milk into the
wine under pressure. Large wineries use small, high-pressure pumps to
inject a cloud of casein into the wine. Home winemakers often use a large
syringe or a rubber bulb.

Lum


"bobdrob" > wrote in message
...
> Greetings to all , and if I may steer this slightly away from the
> topic....
>
> Skim milk? Really? please explain! I'm more than curious now...
> regards, bobdrob
>
>
>
> "Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
> ...
> On Jan 24, 2:27 pm, Pino > wrote:
>> I have been moving away from adding sulfite until after MLF.
>> I usually innoculate 2 months after primary fermentation. The malo
>> innoculum I use is to be applied after fermentation is complete and of
>> course MLF does not do well with sulfites.
>>
>> How would you apply the skim milk tratment? I have a 54L and 25L of
>> red wine.
>>
>> thanks
>> Joe

>
> 4 ounces skim milk per 5 gallons is what some suggest; you should do
> trials on a bottle first though. You want to use the minimum
> possible. Get the wine swirling as you add it, if you have a syringe
> it's easier to add.
>
> Are you keeping the container full since you aren't sulfiting? Maybe
> you just don't like the results of MLF, I don't use it often. I did
> it one time in a Chanceller and hated it.
>
> Joe
>


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Default wine taste mystery too ripe or jammy

On Jan 25, 12:00*pm, wrote:
> By the way, have you taken a residual sugar measurement? *What was
> your sugar level and acidity when you started?
>
> Here in the NW, I often get grapes with a little rot in them, and
> they've never resulted in a jammy flavor. *I've always assigned that
> flavor to being over-ripe or incomplete fermentation.


The initial Brix for the pinot noir was 21.5 and I brought it to up to
22.5. The T/A was 0.8. The grapes may have been over ripe, they
tatsted good. I didn't note how much SO2. But my usual process is to
sprinkle 1/2 tsp per bushel as i crush, let sit over night and pitch
active yeast culture next morning. Fermentation started fine, punched
down 1/2 daily and press when cap sinks. Specific gravity was 1.00.
Finished wine was 0.990 so should be no residual sugar.
I didn't add SO2 again until 3 months later after MLF.

I wonder if lactic bacteria could have had a role. I squished some
gernaioum leaves in my hand and it was somewhat similar to the pinot
noir aroma. I did not use an sorbate so this is probably not
possible,

The color is actually very nice deep red, clear and brilliant with a
copper brown tinge around the edges.

I have read about wine faults but I still can't identify it.

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Default wine taste mystery too ripe or jammy

On Jan 25, 6:30*pm, Pino > wrote:
> On Jan 25, 12:00*pm, wrote:
>
> > By the way, have you taken a residual sugar measurement? *What was
> > your sugar level and acidity when you started?

>
> > Here in the NW, I often get grapes with a little rot in them, and
> > they've never resulted in a jammy flavor. *I've always assigned that
> > flavor to being over-ripe or incomplete fermentation.

>
> The initial Brix for the pinot noir was 21.5 and I brought it to up to
> 22.5. *The T/A was 0.8. *The grapes may have been over ripe, they
> tatsted good. *I didn't note how much SO2. *But my usual process is to
> sprinkle 1/2 tsp per bushel as i crush, let sit over night and pitch
> active yeast culture next morning. *Fermentation started fine, punched
> down 1/2 daily and press when cap sinks. *Specific gravity was 1.00.
> Finished wine was 0.990 so should be no residual sugar.
> I didn't add SO2 again until 3 months later after MLF.
>
> I wonder if lactic bacteria could have had a role. *I squished some
> gernaioum leaves in my hand and it was somewhat similar to the pinot
> noir aroma. *I did not use an sorbate so this is probably not
> possible,
>
> The color is actually very nice deep red, clear and brilliant with a
> copper brown tinge around the edges.
>
> I have read about wine faults but I still can't identify it.


Joe, Did you top with anything store bought? I'm not sure where this
smell is coming from if you didn't use any sort of sorbate. I'm not
sure whether the copper color means anything if the color is not dull.
I'll try Amerine's Table Wines for a clue, this is kind of odd to me.

Joe
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Default wine taste mystery too ripe or jammy

On Jan 29, 9:23*pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> On Jan 25, 6:30*pm, Pino > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 25, 12:00*pm, wrote:

>
> > > By the way, have you taken a residual sugar measurement? *What was
> > > your sugar level and acidity when you started?

>
> > > Here in the NW, I often get grapes with a little rot in them, and
> > > they've never resulted in a jammy flavor. *I've always assigned that
> > > flavor to being over-ripe or incomplete fermentation.

>
> > The initial Brix for the pinot noir was 21.5 and I brought it to up to
> > 22.5. *The T/A was 0.8. *The grapes may have been over ripe, they
> > tatsted good. *I didn't note how much SO2. *But my usual process is to
> > sprinkle 1/2 tsp per bushel as i crush, let sit over night and pitch
> > active yeast culture next morning. *Fermentation started fine, punched
> > down 1/2 daily and press when cap sinks. *Specific gravity was 1.00.
> > Finished wine was 0.990 so should be no residual sugar.
> > I didn't add SO2 again until 3 months later after MLF.

>
> > I wonder if lactic bacteria could have had a role. *I squished some
> > gernaioum leaves in my hand and it was somewhat similar to the pinot
> > noir aroma. *I did not use an sorbate so this is probably not
> > possible,

>
> > The color is actually very nice deep red, clear and brilliant with a
> > copper brown tinge around the edges.

>
> > I have read about wine faults but I still can't identify it.

>
> Joe, Did you top with anything store bought? *I'm *not sure where this
> smell is coming from if you didn't use any sort of sorbate. *I'm not
> sure whether the copper color means anything if the color is not dull.
> I'll try Amerine's Table Wines for a clue, this is kind of odd to me.
>
> Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Joe,
Start over. Pull some to sample and top up;adjust the acid to a level
you like if needed, add some oak if you think it needs it, I can't
find a reason for geraniums if this is straight Baco and 21.5 is not
overripe for Baco. Baco has a pH stability issue as I recall, can you
measure? Just remember an uneventful trip is boring, don't quit
now...

Joe


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Default wine taste mystery too ripe or jammy

On Jan 29, 9:51*pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> On Jan 29, 9:23*pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 25, 6:30*pm, Pino > wrote:

>
> > > On Jan 25, 12:00*pm, wrote:

>
> > > > By the way, have you taken a residual sugar measurement? *What was
> > > > your sugar level and acidity when you started?

>
> > > > Here in the NW, I often get grapes with a little rot in them, and
> > > > they've never resulted in a jammy flavor. *I've always assigned that
> > > > flavor to being over-ripe or incomplete fermentation.

>
> > > The initial Brix for the pinot noir was 21.5 and I brought it to up to
> > > 22.5. *The T/A was 0.8. *The grapes may have been over ripe, they
> > > tatsted good. *I didn't note how much SO2. *But my usual process is to
> > > sprinkle 1/2 tsp per bushel as i crush, let sit over night and pitch
> > > active yeast culture next morning. *Fermentation started fine, punched
> > > down 1/2 daily and press when cap sinks. *Specific gravity was 1.00..
> > > Finished wine was 0.990 so should be no residual sugar.
> > > I didn't add SO2 again until 3 months later after MLF.

>
> > > I wonder if lactic bacteria could have had a role. *I squished some
> > > gernaioum leaves in my hand and it was somewhat similar to the pinot
> > > noir aroma. *I did not use an sorbate so this is probably not
> > > possible,

>
> > > The color is actually very nice deep red, clear and brilliant with a
> > > copper brown tinge around the edges.

>
> > > I have read about wine faults but I still can't identify it.

>
> > Joe, Did you top with anything store bought? *I'm *not sure where this
> > smell is coming from if you didn't use any sort of sorbate. *I'm not
> > sure whether the copper color means anything if the color is not dull.
> > I'll try Amerine's Table Wines for a clue, this is kind of odd to me.

>
> > Joe- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> Joe,
> *Start over. Pull some to sample and top up;adjust the acid to a level
> you like if needed, add some oak if you think it needs it, *I can't
> find a reason for geraniums if this is straight Baco and 21.5 is not
> overripe for Baco. *Baco has a pH stability issue as I recall, can you
> measure? * Just remember an uneventful trip is boring, don't quit
> now...
>
> Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Hi Joe
Thanks for your advice!
I always keep my containers topped off and I have never added sorbate.
I think you were right orginally. The taste and smell is probably
oxidation casued by lw levels of sulfites.
My wife is sensitive to sulfites so I have been experimenting on
minizing the sulfite use. Live and learn.
I will try skim milk powder treatment on some samples and see how it
works.
The oxidation is not at the level that the wine tastes flat yet.
I wonder if I can reverse the oxidation by hitting it with a good dose
of sulfite?
Joe
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Default wine taste mystery too ripe or jammy

Pino wrote:
> On Jan 29, 9:51 pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>> On Jan 29, 9:23 pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jan 25, 6:30 pm, Pino > wrote:
>>>> On Jan 25, 12:00 pm, wrote:
>>>>> By the way, have you taken a residual sugar measurement? What was
>>>>> your sugar level and acidity when you started?
>>>>> Here in the NW, I often get grapes with a little rot in them, and
>>>>> they've never resulted in a jammy flavor. I've always assigned that
>>>>> flavor to being over-ripe or incomplete fermentation.
>>>> The initial Brix for the pinot noir was 21.5 and I brought it to up to
>>>> 22.5. The T/A was 0.8. The grapes may have been over ripe, they
>>>> tatsted good. I didn't note how much SO2. But my usual process is to
>>>> sprinkle 1/2 tsp per bushel as i crush, let sit over night and pitch
>>>> active yeast culture next morning. Fermentation started fine, punched
>>>> down 1/2 daily and press when cap sinks. Specific gravity was 1.00.
>>>> Finished wine was 0.990 so should be no residual sugar.
>>>> I didn't add SO2 again until 3 months later after MLF.
>>>> I wonder if lactic bacteria could have had a role. I squished some
>>>> gernaioum leaves in my hand and it was somewhat similar to the pinot
>>>> noir aroma. I did not use an sorbate so this is probably not
>>>> possible,
>>>> The color is actually very nice deep red, clear and brilliant with a
>>>> copper brown tinge around the edges.
>>>> I have read about wine faults but I still can't identify it.
>>> Joe, Did you top with anything store bought? I'm not sure where this
>>> smell is coming from if you didn't use any sort of sorbate. I'm not
>>> sure whether the copper color means anything if the color is not dull.
>>> I'll try Amerine's Table Wines for a clue, this is kind of odd to me.
>>> Joe- Hide quoted text -
>>> - Show quoted text -

>> Joe,
>> Start over. Pull some to sample and top up;adjust the acid to a level
>> you like if needed, add some oak if you think it needs it, I can't
>> find a reason for geraniums if this is straight Baco and 21.5 is not
>> overripe for Baco. Baco has a pH stability issue as I recall, can you
>> measure? Just remember an uneventful trip is boring, don't quit
>> now...
>>
>> Joe- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -

>
> Hi Joe
> Thanks for your advice!
> I always keep my containers topped off and I have never added sorbate.
> I think you were right orginally. The taste and smell is probably
> oxidation casued by lw levels of sulfites.
> My wife is sensitive to sulfites so I have been experimenting on
> minizing the sulfite use. Live and learn.
> I will try skim milk powder treatment on some samples and see how it
> works.
> The oxidation is not at the level that the wine tastes flat yet.
> I wonder if I can reverse the oxidation by hitting it with a good dose
> of sulfite?
> Joe


If only there was a way to reverse wine oxidation, but alas....

Though you can 'brighten' the wine's acidity with a pinch of ascorbic
acid (vitamin C). This can sometimes rescue a wine that has gone flat.

Gene
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Default wine taste mystery too ripe or jammy

On Jan 31, 7:42*pm, gene > wrote:
> Pino wrote:
> > On Jan 29, 9:51 pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> >> On Jan 29, 9:23 pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:

>
> >>> On Jan 25, 6:30 pm, Pino > wrote:
> >>>> On Jan 25, 12:00 pm, wrote:
> >>>>> By the way, have you taken a residual sugar measurement? *What was
> >>>>> your sugar level and acidity when you started?
> >>>>> Here in the NW, I often get grapes with a little rot in them, and
> >>>>> they've never resulted in a jammy flavor. *I've always assigned that
> >>>>> flavor to being over-ripe or incomplete fermentation.
> >>>> The initial Brix for the pinot noir was 21.5 and I brought it to up to
> >>>> 22.5. *The T/A was 0.8. *The grapes may have been over ripe, they
> >>>> tatsted good. *I didn't note how much SO2. *But my usual process is to
> >>>> sprinkle 1/2 tsp per bushel as i crush, let sit over night and pitch
> >>>> active yeast culture next morning. *Fermentation started fine, punched
> >>>> down 1/2 daily and press when cap sinks. *Specific gravity was 1.00.

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