Practical use of Argon, Nitrogen, CO2
 

Spent the last day or so reviewing all the previous posts on the use
of inert gases for top-up, and wine transfer.

I understand the caveats that Tom S raised about a false sense of
security.

So after all this I would still like to use either Nitrogen or Argon
for the temporary protection it provides.

However, I am not sure exactly what I need, and how to best use it. I
want to use it for temporarily protecting partially filled carboys,
displacing oxygen in bottles at bottling time, and for protecting
unfinished bottles of wine (like Private Reserve does). So I know I
need:

1. A tank - 20 or 40 seems to be physically the right size but I have
no idea how long it would last
2. A regulator - I believe the same regulator (and tank) could be used
for Argon or Nitrogen. Question is, what specs for the regulator?
Seems that you want a low pressure output to minimize wine
disturbance.
3. Nozzle? Gun? - So how do I apply it to the wine? I've read to do it
gently to not disturb the wine but not sure what fitting I need or how
to best do it. Given that I also want to use this for unfinished wine
bottles, it needs to fit that application as well.
4. How do I use it as part of the bottling process? How much gas do I
need to add to a bottle, and how do I control it?

Any additional insight appreciated.
Dan

Practical use of Argon, Nitrogen, CO2
 

On Jul 22, 4:00*pm, wrote:
> Spent the last day or so reviewing all the previous posts on the use
> of inert gases for top-up, and wine transfer.
>
> I understand the caveats that Tom S raised about a false sense of
> security.
>
> So after all this I would still like to use either Nitrogen or Argon
> for the temporary protection it provides.
>
> However, I am not sure exactly what I need, and how to best use it. I
> want to use it for temporarily protecting partially filled carboys,
> displacing oxygen in bottles at bottling time, *and for protecting
> unfinished bottles of wine (like Private Reserve does). So I know I
> need:
>
> 1. A tank - 20 or 40 seems to be physically the right size but I have
> no idea how long it would last
> 2. A regulator - I believe the same regulator (and tank) could be used
> for Argon or Nitrogen. Question is, what specs for the regulator?
> Seems that you want a low pressure output to minimize wine
> disturbance.
> 3. Nozzle? Gun? - So how do I apply it to the wine? I've read to do it
> gently to not disturb the wine but not sure what fitting I need or how
> to best do it. Given that I also want to use this for unfinished wine
> bottles, it needs to fit that application as well.
> 4. How do I use it as part of the bottling process? How much gas do I
> need to add to a bottle, and how do I control it?
>
> Any additional insight appreciated.
> Dan

I went with Argon.
I got it from a local welding gas supply shop.

I bought a 5lb tank. (looks like http://morewinemaking.com/view_produ...rogen_Tank_5lb)
I got a low-flow (argon/carbon dioxide) regulator.
That, plus a fill, cost aout $190.
Refills are about $11

Then I went to my local hardware store and bought an air nozzle that
looks a heck of a lot like this.
http://www.performanceairtools.co.uk...g200_large.jpg
that cost 12 bucks.

My regulator goes from 0 to 35 CFM.

I set mine to about 3-4 CFM and let it fill. You will need to do your
own calculations using volume of container and flow-rate to determine
how long to fill, but keep in mind argon is heavier than air and
really, you only need to blanket your wine to keep the oxygen off of
it.

I am very happy with it. I use it to top off carboys and bottles (the
few i do not finish......) lol

Practical use of Argon, Nitrogen, CO2
 

Wayne Harris wrote:
> On Jul 22, 4:00 pm, wrote:
>
>>Spent the last day or so reviewing all the previous posts on the use
>>of inert gases for top-up, and wine transfer.
>>
>>I understand the caveats that Tom S raised about a false sense of
>>security.
>>
>>So after all this I would still like to use either Nitrogen or Argon
>>for the temporary protection it provides.
>>
>>However, I am not sure exactly what I need, and how to best use it. I
>>want to use it for temporarily protecting partially filled carboys,
>>displacing oxygen in bottles at bottling time, and for protecting
>>unfinished bottles of wine (like Private Reserve does). So I know I
>>need:
>>
>>1. A tank - 20 or 40 seems to be physically the right size but I have
>>no idea how long it would last
>>2. A regulator - I believe the same regulator (and tank) could be used
>>for Argon or Nitrogen. Question is, what specs for the regulator?
>>Seems that you want a low pressure output to minimize wine
>>disturbance.
>>3. Nozzle? Gun? - So how do I apply it to the wine? I've read to do it
>>gently to not disturb the wine but not sure what fitting I need or how
>>to best do it. Given that I also want to use this for unfinished wine
>>bottles, it needs to fit that application as well.
>>4. How do I use it as part of the bottling process? How much gas do I
>>need to add to a bottle, and how do I control it?
>>
>>Any additional insight appreciated.
>>Dan
>
>
> I went with Argon.
> I got it from a local welding gas supply shop.
>
> I bought a 5lb tank. (looks like http://morewinemaking.com/view_produ...rogen_Tank_5lb)
> I got a low-flow (argon/carbon dioxide) regulator.
> That, plus a fill, cost aout $190.
> Refills are about $11
>
> Then I went to my local hardware store and bought an air nozzle that
> looks a heck of a lot like this.
> http://www.performanceairtools.co.uk...g200_large.jpg
> that cost 12 bucks.
>
> My regulator goes from 0 to 35 CFM.
>
> I set mine to about 3-4 CFM and let it fill. You will need to do your
> own calculations using volume of container and flow-rate to determine
> how long to fill, but keep in mind argon is heavier than air and
> really, you only need to blanket your wine to keep the oxygen off of
> it.
>
> I am very happy with it. I use it to top off carboys and bottles (the
> few i do not finish......) lol
>
>
>
Rule of thumb for CO2 and Ar, use twice the volume of the ullage. Re-gas
weekly. However consider that doing this is a bit like putting something
in the refrigerator, it will still go bad, but not as fast. Try to top
it, or move it to a vessel which matches the volume. Full tanks are the
way to got, if you have a little bit that is not full, then keep lots of
SO2 in it, say 50 free SO2 min, then back blend this across the final blend.

James.

Practical use of Argon, Nitrogen, CO2
 

On 7/22/2008 4:00 PM, wrote:
> Spent the last day or so reviewing all the previous posts on the use
> of inert gases for top-up, and wine transfer.
>
> I understand the caveats that Tom S raised about a false sense of
> security.

My newsreader (Thunderbird) seems to be unable to search on sender. :(
When I try to search I get an error "NNTP: aborted by user" error
message and no results. And so I can not find the posts by Tom S you
refer to. So at the risk of repeating old content, my understanding on
bottled gasses was that the greatest risk was concerning the
quality/purity of the gas, as anything other than medical grade carried
the risk of all kinds of contaminants including oils and other
substances being contained in the gas. Is this a realistic concern, and
if so how have you protected your wine against foreign substances being
introduced via bottles gasses?


Cheers,
Ken

Practical use of Argon, Nitrogen, CO2
 

On Jul 23, 7:21*pm, mail box > wrote:
> On 7/22/2008 4:00 PM, wrote:
>
> > Spent the last day or so reviewing all the previous posts on the use
> > of inert gases for top-up, and wine transfer.
>
> > I understand the caveats that Tom S raised about a false sense of
> > security.
>
> My newsreader (Thunderbird) seems to be unable to search on sender. *:(
> * When I try to search I get an error "NNTP: aborted by user" error
> message and no results. And so I can not find the posts by Tom S you
> refer to. *So at the risk of repeating old content, my understanding on
> bottled gasses was that the greatest risk was concerning the
> quality/purity of the gas, as anything other than medical grade carried
> the risk of all kinds of contaminants including oils and other
> substances being contained in the gas. *Is this a realistic concern, and
> if so how have you protected your wine against foreign substances being
> introduced via bottles gasses?
>
> Cheers,
> Ken
Hmm, you bring up a point i had not considered deeply.

A quick google seems to indicate that TIG welding uses pure argon at
99.999% purity.

"In the Tungsten Inert Gas welding (TIG) process, the gases used as
back
shielding gases obtainable from the gas supplier ere usually pure
argon
having a purity which is at least equal to 99.999% (the impurities
content
is below 10 ppm)."

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/53...scription.html

I am not an authority on this.

Practical use of Argon, Nitrogen, CO2
 

> My regulator goes from 0 to 35 CFM.
>
> I set mine to about 3-4 CFM and let it fill. You will need to do your
> own calculations using volume of container and flow-rate to determine
> how long to fill, but keep in mind argon is heavier than air and
> really, you only need to blanket your wine to keep the oxygen off of
> it.

I think you mean PSI, not CFM. As regulators change pressure, not
volume.

Also, if it was me, I would put a valve just after the regulator with
a barbed hose end and use the same tube you use for siphoning your
wine.

Steve

Practical use of Argon, Nitrogen, CO2
 

FYI... here is Tom's previous thoughts on the false sense of
security...
BTW - have not heard the impurity rationale before...

More options Nov 20 2000, 1:00 am
"Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote in message

...
> I made an apple "jug" wine that I want to keep in a demijohn instead of
> bottle. I'd like to blanket it with an inter gas to protect it. I'm
> leaning to argon, but don't know for sure.
> Nitrogen can have an odor.
> Carbon Dioxide can be absorbed and carbonate the wine.
> Argon ???????
> Anyone have experience with this?


First thing you have to do is get that concept of "blanketing" out of
your
head. It can give you a false sense of security. If you have ANY
oxygen
present in your headspace, you have it _everywhere_ in there!
Spoilage
organisms are _micro-aerobic_, and if you provide them a little air,
they'll
ruin your wine.
IOW, to effectively gas a container of wine, you have to completely
purge
the headspace and seal the container airtight.
I don't recommend using CO2 for this purpose. It is too soluble in
wine,
and will affect the flavor as long as it is present in the wine.
Nitrogen is the cheapest of the three, and generally the most widely
used
commercially for this purpose. If it is pure, it is odorless and
tasteless.
Same goes for Argon, but it is a lot more expensive.
Your safest alternative is to simply break the wine down to smaller
containers. I use stainless steel beer kegs, carboys, gallon jugs and
liter
bottles (glass) for that. Then you can top all the containers
completely
and sleep easy. Simply drink anything left over that is less than a
liter!
Tom S

On Jul 23, 4:21*pm, mail box > wrote:
> On 7/22/2008 4:00 PM, wrote:
>
> > Spent the last day or so reviewing all the previous posts on the use
> > of inert gases for top-up, and wine transfer.
>
> > I understand the caveats that Tom S raised about a false sense of
> > security.
>
> My newsreader (Thunderbird) seems to be unable to search on sender. *:(
> * When I try to search I get an error "NNTP: aborted by user" error
> message and no results. And so I can not find the posts by Tom S you
> refer to. *

Practical use of Argon, Nitrogen, CO2
 

Not sure I understand the purpose of the valve after the regulator.
Aren't you going to regulate the output by adjusting the regulator?
Dan

On Jul 23, 7:01*pm, Steve Potter > wrote:
...
>
> I think you mean PSI, not CFM. *As regulators change pressure, not
> volume.
>
> Also, if it was me, I would put a valve just after the regulator with
> a barbed hose end and use the same tube you use for siphoning your
> wine.
>
> Steve

Practical use of Argon, Nitrogen, CO2
 

Dan,
Using inert gasses to store wine involves much more than just squirting a
little gas into the container. Please see the info here
www.vinovation.com/ArticleArgon2.htm
Lum

> wrote in message
...
> Spent the last day or so reviewing all the previous posts on the use
> of inert gases for top-up, and wine transfer.
>
> I understand the caveats that Tom S raised about a false sense of
> security.
>
> So after all this I would still like to use either Nitrogen or Argon
> for the temporary protection it provides.
>
> However, I am not sure exactly what I need, and how to best use it. I
> want to use it for temporarily protecting partially filled carboys,
> displacing oxygen in bottles at bottling time, and for protecting
> unfinished bottles of wine (like Private Reserve does). So I know I
> need:
>
> 1. A tank - 20 or 40 seems to be physically the right size but I have
> no idea how long it would last
> 2. A regulator - I believe the same regulator (and tank) could be used
> for Argon or Nitrogen. Question is, what specs for the regulator?
> Seems that you want a low pressure output to minimize wine
> disturbance.
> 3. Nozzle? Gun? - So how do I apply it to the wine? I've read to do it
> gently to not disturb the wine but not sure what fitting I need or how
> to best do it. Given that I also want to use this for unfinished wine
> bottles, it needs to fit that application as well.
> 4. How do I use it as part of the bottling process? How much gas do I
> need to add to a bottle, and how do I control it?
>
> Any additional insight appreciated.
> Dan
>

Practical use of Argon, Nitrogen, CO2
 

On Jul 24, 12:26 am, Dan Tortorici > wrote:
> Not sure I understand the purpose of the valve after the regulator.
> Aren't you going to regulate the output by adjusting the regulator?
> Dan
>
> On Jul 23, 7:01 pm, Steve Potter > wrote:
> ...
>
>
>
> > I think you mean PSI, not CFM. As regulators change pressure, not
> > volume.
>
> > Also, if it was me, I would put a valve just after the regulator with
> > a barbed hose end and use the same tube you use for siphoning your
> > wine.
>
> > Steve

Yes, you are going to regulate the pressure with the regulator. The
valve is to start and stop the flow as well as a crude regulation of
the volume.

Steve

Practical use of Argon, Nitrogen, CO2
 

On Jul 25, 10:44*pm, Steve Potter > wrote:
> On Jul 24, 12:26 am, Dan Tortorici > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Not sure I understand the purpose of the valve after the regulator.
> > Aren't you going to regulate the output by adjusting the regulator?
> > Dan
>
> > On Jul 23, 7:01 pm, Steve *Potter > wrote:
> > ...
>
> > > I think you mean PSI, not CFM. *As regulators change pressure, not
> > > volume.
>
> > > Also, if it was me, I would put a valve just after the regulator with
> > > a barbed hose end and use the same tube you use for siphoning your
> > > wine.
>
> > > Steve
>
> Yes, you are going to regulate the pressure with the regulator. *The
> valve is to start and stop the flow as well as a crude regulation of
> the volume.
>
> Steve- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

My rig has two guages and two knobs.

One knob opens the tank. And it's Guage is PSI.
the other knob adjusts the gas flow rate, it's gauge is CFM.