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viticulture advice
I am fairly new to growing my own vines in England,and am looking for
a site to find out some of the details of pruning the vines during the summers growth.In paticular I wish to know how to deal with over vigorous growth,and whether to remove side shoots or laterals during the summers rapid growth.Cheers michael |
viticulture advice
michael wrote:
> I am fairly new to growing my own vines in > England,and am looking for a site to find out > some of the details of pruning the vines during > the summers growth.In paticular I wish to know > how to deal with over vigorous growth,and > whether to remove side shoots or laterals during > the summers rapid growth.Cheers michael I can't offhand point you to a website but here in the Mid Atlantic the short answer would be Yes, control the vigorous growth. I was at a "Field Day" meeting of the Maryland Grape Growers Association (MGGA) recently and the Viticulturists there said a "rule of thumb" is that if someone is on the other side of the row across from you, you should thin, position shoots and leaf pull in order to see the color of the clothing they are wearing - not to the point of being able to specifically identify them. Shoot length should be on the order of 4 feet long and leaf pulling should be predominately on the East side to allow early morning sun to penetrate. I don't know what trellising system you are using but for most it is also important to keep the shoots vertical and not let them cross over. The cross over will happen very easily and it is amazing how long some of the crossover shoots are and how much shading they provide. |
viticulture advice
"michael" > wrote in message ... >I am fairly new to growing my own vines in England,and am looking for > a site to find out some of the details of pruning the vines during the > summers growth.In paticular I wish to know how to deal with over > vigorous growth,and whether to remove side shoots or laterals during > the summers rapid growth.Cheers michael Here are a few good sites: http://www.canr.msu.edu/vanburen/e-1935.htm http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1429.html I googled "pruning grape vines" and got 159,000 hits. Paul |
viticulture advice
On Jun 19, 5:36 am, michael > wrote:
> I am fairly new to growing my own vines in England,and am looking for > a site to find out some of the details of pruning the vines during the > summers growth.In paticular I wish to know how to deal with over > vigorous growth,and whether to remove side shoots or laterals during > the summers rapid growth.Cheers michael There are great videos on viticulture on youtube.com. Also http://www.crushnet.com/cms/media is a nice place to view some vineyard pruning. Dave |
viticulture advice
Pavel314 wrote:
> > "michael" > wrote > in message > ... >>I am fairly new to growing my own vines in >>England,and am looking for >> a site to find out some of the details of >> pruning the vines during the summers growth.In >> paticular I wish to know how to deal with over >> vigorous growth,and whether to remove side >> shoots or laterals during the summers rapid >> growth.Cheers michael > > > Here are a few good sites: > > http://www.canr.msu.edu/vanburen/e-1935.htm > > http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1429.html > > I googled "pruning grape vines" and got 159,000 > hits. > > > Paul I think the OP was asking about "summer" pruning. The references you provided are good but do not address the issue of vigorous growth and what to do about it during the summer - unless I missed something - which is entirely possible in my chronologically advantaged state. We have a similar problem (excessive growth) here in the Mid Atlantic. This year has seen incredible growth because of the wet spring. My advice for "summer" pruning is to: Hedge the vines so the shoots are about 4 feet long Keep the shoots positioned vertically and not allow to cross over each other Leaf pull in the fruit zone - especially on the eastern side. Leaf pull throughout the canopy until you can "see through it". This does not mean denuding the vines but merely to the point where you can tell if there is someone standing on the other side of the vine from you - NOT to the point you can identify them :-). This will allow air circulation which is needed in areas of excessive vigor. All this information came from the Maryland Grape Growers Association (MGGA) summer field education program at a local vineyard and winery and was presented by several viticulturalist from Maryland and out of state. One additonal thing worth mentioning for vigorous growth areas: Consider cane pruning instead of cordon spur pruning. Cane pruning greatly diminishes "old" wood. The only "old" wood is the trunk(s). Old wood provides a home for fungi. Vineyards around here that have gone to cane pruning have experienced a lot less problem with fungus. It is also a LOT easier to maintain the vines since you do not have a lot of shoots from old wood (which are non-productive) to prune away. I have gone to cane pruning this year and I am very pleased with the results. There has always been a lot of controversy about vine and row spacing but some of the new plantings around here are going to 4 feet between vines and 7 foot row spacing. They are aiming for 12 buds per vine. This will typically work out to a yield of about 3 tons per acre or a little more depending on variety. This is a good crop load around here for producing quality wines. the other Paul |
viticulture advice
On 20 Jun, 21:19, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> Pavel314 wrote: > > > "michael" > wrote > > in message > > ... > > > > > > >>I am fairly new to growing my own vines in > >>England,and am looking for > >> a site to find out some of the details of > >> pruning the vines during the summers growth.In > >> paticular I wish to know how to deal with over > >> vigorous growth,and whether to remove side > >> shoots or laterals during the summers rapid > >> growth.Cheers michael > > > Here are a few good sites: > > >http://www.canr.msu.edu/vanburen/e-1935.htm > > >http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1429.html > > > I googled "pruning grape vines" and got 159,000 > > hits. > > > Paul > > I think the OP was asking about "summer" pruning. > The references you provided are good but do not > address the issue of vigorous growth and what to > do about it during the summer - unless I missed > something - which is entirely possible in my > chronologically advantaged state. > > We have a similar problem (excessive growth) here > in the Mid Atlantic. *This year has seen > incredible growth because of the wet spring. > > My advice for "summer" pruning is to: > > Hedge the vines so the shoots are about 4 feet > long > > Keep the shoots positioned vertically and not > allow to cross over each other > > Leaf pull in the fruit zone - especially on the > eastern side. * > > Leaf pull throughout the canopy until you can "see > through it". *This does not mean denuding the > vines but merely to the point where you can tell > if there is someone standing on the other side of > the vine from you - NOT to the point you can > identify them :-). *This will allow air > circulation which is needed in areas of excessive > vigor. > > All this information came from the Maryland Grape > Growers Association (MGGA) summer field education > program at a local vineyard and winery and was > presented by several viticulturalist from > Maryland and out of state. > > One additonal thing worth mentioning for vigorous > growth areas: > > Consider cane pruning instead of cordon spur > pruning. *Cane pruning greatly diminishes "old" > wood. *The only "old" wood is the trunk(s). *Old > wood provides a home for fungi. *Vineyards around > here that have gone to cane pruning have > experienced a lot less problem with fungus. *It > is also a LOT easier to maintain the vines since > you do not have a lot of shoots from old wood > (which are non-productive) to prune away. *I have > gone to cane pruning this year and I am very > pleased with the results. > > There has always been a lot of controversy about > vine and row spacing but some of the new > plantings around here are going to 4 feet between > vines and 7 foot row spacing. *They are aiming > for 12 buds per vine. *This will typically work > out to a yield of about 3 tons per acre or a > little more depending on variety. This is a good > crop load around here for producing quality > wines. > > the other Paul- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Thanks for your replies.I am always tempted to prune the strong growth canes in early summer,but resist it,since the side growths then go mad creating another pruning problem.I have a Double Guyot trellis system,with the bottom wires at about 18",then two double wires and finally the top wire at about 5' 6".So your suggested 4' canes correspond to my top wire.My reference book suggests pruning back to the top wire in early August(i.e.4' canes),but my vines seem to reach the top wire by mid June! If I prune them back then,then side growths take over,so I tend to leave them until they get very long. I do remove leaves in the lower part of the trellis (not completely of course) at all times during the summer,to give good air penetration,good spray coverage(mainly wettable sulphur for powdery mildew) and later,warmth for grape ripening.Because of the vigour of my vines (and I am on a sloping south facing site on thin limestone very dry soil),I do not use any fertiliser,except the occasional wood ash for the potash and a seaweed spray to help the grape set.This early season in England is quite cool (18-20 degrees),but not wet.The grapes were planted about 5 years ago,and seem to be getting more vigorous each year-the roots must be finding something in the soil they like,but my experience when digging is that below about 1 foot the soil become very stony-our cottage is called Rock Cottage for good reason! I would welcome further advice,and thanks again.Cheers,Michael |
viticulture advice
michael wrote:
> On 20 Jun, 21:19, "Paul E. Lehmann" > > wrote: >> Pavel314 wrote: >> >> > "michael" > >> > wrote in message >> >> ... >> >> >> >> >> >> >>I am fairly new to growing my own vines in >> >>England,and am looking for >> >> a site to find out some of the details of >> >> pruning the vines during the summers >> >> growth.In paticular I wish to know how to >> >> deal with over vigorous growth,and whether >> >> to remove side shoots or laterals during the >> >> summers rapid growth.Cheers michael >> >> > Here are a few good sites: >> >> >http://www.canr.msu.edu/vanburen/e-1935.htm >> >> >http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1429.html >> >> > I googled "pruning grape vines" and got >> > 159,000 hits. >> >> > Paul >> >> I think the OP was asking about "summer" >> pruning. The references you provided are good >> but do not address the issue of vigorous growth >> and what to do about it during the summer - >> unless I missed something - which is entirely >> possible in my chronologically advantaged >> state. >> >> We have a similar problem (excessive growth) >> here in the Mid Atlantic. *This year has seen >> incredible growth because of the wet spring. >> >> My advice for "summer" pruning is to: >> >> Hedge the vines so the shoots are about 4 feet >> long >> >> Keep the shoots positioned vertically and not >> allow to cross over each other >> >> Leaf pull in the fruit zone - especially on the >> eastern side. >> >> Leaf pull throughout the canopy until you can >> "see through it". *This does not mean denuding >> the vines but merely to the point where you can >> tell if there is someone standing on the other >> side of the vine from you - NOT to the point >> you can identify them :-). *This will allow air >> circulation which is needed in areas of >> excessive vigor. >> >> All this information came from the Maryland >> Grape Growers Association (MGGA) summer field >> education program at a local vineyard and >> winery and was presented by several >> viticulturalist from Maryland and out of state. >> >> One additonal thing worth mentioning for >> vigorous growth areas: >> >> Consider cane pruning instead of cordon spur >> pruning. *Cane pruning greatly diminishes "old" >> wood. *The only "old" wood is the trunk(s). >> Old wood provides a home for fungi. *Vineyards >> around here that have gone to cane pruning have >> experienced a lot less problem with fungus. *It >> is also a LOT easier to maintain the vines >> since you do not have a lot of shoots from old >> wood (which are non-productive) to prune away. >> I have gone to cane pruning this year and I am >> very pleased with the results. >> >> There has always been a lot of controversy >> about vine and row spacing but some of the new >> plantings around here are going to 4 feet >> between vines and 7 foot row spacing. *They are >> aiming for 12 buds per vine. *This will >> typically work out to a yield of about 3 tons >> per acre or a little more depending on variety. >> This is a good crop load around here for >> producing quality wines. >> >> the other Paul- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Thanks for your replies.I am always tempted to > prune the strong growth canes in early > summer,but resist it,since the side growths then > go mad creating another pruning problem. Yep, that is the problem with hedging. It does promote lateral growth and these have to be controlled. A point of interest though; leaves reach their maximum efficiency after about 60 to 90 days. Most of the photosynthesis comes from the new and younger leaves. Around here we have a problem with Japanese beatles starting around July. I think it is important to keep them under control as they eat the young shoot tips and this is were most of the energy for the plant is coming from > I have a > Double Guyot trellis system,with the bottom > wires at about 18",then two double wires and > finally the top wire at about 5' 6".So your > suggested 4' canes correspond to my top wire.My > reference book suggests pruning back to the top > wire in early August(i.e.4' canes),but my vines > seem to reach > the top wire by mid June! Yep, I had to hedge last two weeks ago. Last year I let some of my shoots grow just to see how long they would get. They got to over 20 feet in length by fall. > If I prune them back > then,then side growths take over,so I tend to > leave them until they get very long. I do remove > leaves in the lower part of the trellis (not > completely of course) at all times during the > summer,to give good air penetration,good spray > coverage(mainly wettable sulphur for powdery > mildew) and later,warmth for grape > ripening.Because of the vigour of my vines (and > I am on a sloping south facing site on thin > limestone very dry soil),I do not use any > fertiliser,except the occasional wood ash for > the potash and a seaweed spray to help the grape > set. Grapes don't need much in the way of fertilizer - around here that is. Some have used Nitrogen with disastrous effects - talk about a jungle!!! You may want to check your potassium level. Too much can give you a real high pH wine. Around here we have agricultural extension services which can do leaf petiole analysis. The best time for analysis is either at bloom using the petioles across from the flower clusters or at verasion using the petioles from the fully developed leaves high up in the canopy. I did not know this until last week and had been waiting until verasion and using the petioles in the fruit zone. > This early season in England is quite cool > (18-20 degrees),but not wet.The grapes were > planted about 5 years ago,and seem to be getting > more vigorous each year-the roots must be > finding something in the soil they like,but my > experience when digging is that below about 1 > foot the soil become very stony-our cottage is > called Rock Cottage for good reason! I would > welcome further advice,and thanks > again.Cheers,Michael Ok - I will pass along anything I learn and please do the same for me. Paul |
viticulture advice
On Jun 19, 4:36*am, michael > wrote:
> I am fairly new to growing my own vines in England,and am looking for > a site to find out some of the details of pruning the vines during the > summers growth.In paticular I wish to know how to deal with over > vigorous growth,and whether to remove side shoots or laterals during > the summers rapid growth.Cheers michael Here is a link to a new article on pruning by Lon Rombough, one of the foremost grape experts in the U.S. not associated with a university program. He recommends caution in growing season pruning. http://www.bunchgrapes.com/pruning_grapes.html |
viticulture advice
shbailey wrote:
> On Jun 19, 4:36*am, michael > > wrote: >> I am fairly new to growing my own vines in >> England,and am looking for a site to find out >> some of the details of pruning the vines during >> the summers growth.In paticular I wish to know >> how to deal with over vigorous growth,and >> whether to remove side shoots or laterals >> during the summers rapid growth.Cheers michael > > Here is a link to a new article on pruning by > Lon Rombough, one of the foremost grape experts > in the U.S. not associated with a university > program. He recommends caution in growing > season pruning. > > http://www.bunchgrapes.com/pruning_grapes.html I wonder if the author has experience growing vines in climates that have excessive moisture. We can not control moisture in my region of the country and we use little or no fertilizer except if trace elements are missing or very low. If hedging is not done, canes will grow to at least 20 feet in length. Studies have shown that this will produce very poor quality wine. I agree that hedging should be timed so that the new leaves and laterals are contributing to the ripening of the fruit. I do not hedge after the first of August. At this time the vines are putting energy into ripening the fruit. Leaf pulling in the fruit zone is necessary in my area (Mid Atlantic) to allow air circulation and allow spray to reach clusters. Also a dense canopy offers a very hospitable hosts for fungi and also areas where spray can not reach. If you have yellow leaves in the interior of your canopy, then the probably reason is that they simply are not receiving enough sun. It should be noted that the leaves in the fruiting zone are not providing much in the way of carbohydrates to the vine by mid summer. 60 to 90 days after opening they are in old age and not contributing to anything except restriction of air flow and spray. Where I live, the viticulturists runs research farms that actually grow grapes so their work is NOT strictly academic but tested by field trials and experience. There has been and continues to be a difference of opinion on controlling vigor. At one time Dr. Richard Smart promoted the idea of controlling vigor by having greater vine spacing and longer cordons. This was tried and the result was very long cordons with very high vigor and excessive growth - in short - it did not work. It should be noted that what works for one in a certain area may not work for others in a different area or there may be differences between varieties in a given area. The best advice is to experiment and see what works best for you. |
viticulture advice
I agree with evrything Lon said. Laterals are grown by the vine to
help it ripen the grapes. Pruning them off is not the right thing. What can be done is to take every other shoot off the vine so as to give each shoot double the space and leave the shoots alone. Hedging the main shoot is better than cutting the laterals. I also agree with him on leaf pulling and have experience that there is no difference in taste if you leave the leaves. Proper spraying and growing positioning will keep the friut fungus free. Bob On Jun 23, 12:46*pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote: > shbailey wrote: > > On Jun 19, 4:36*am, michael > > > wrote: > >> I am fairly new to growing my own vines in > >> England,and am looking for a site to find out > >> some of the details of pruning the vines during > >> the summers growth.In paticular I wish to know > >> how to deal with over vigorous growth,and > >> whether to remove side shoots or laterals > >> during the summers rapid growth.Cheers michael > > > Here is a link to a new article on pruning by > > Lon Rombough, one of the foremost grape experts > > in the U.S. not associated with a university > > program. *He recommends caution in growing > > season pruning. > > >http://www.bunchgrapes.com/pruning_grapes.html > > I wonder if the author has experience growing > vines in climates that have excessive moisture. > We can not control moisture in my region of the > country and we use little or no fertilizer except > if trace elements are missing or very low. * > > If hedging is not done, canes will grow to at > least 20 feet in length. *Studies have shown that > this will produce very poor quality wine. * > > I agree that hedging should be timed so that the > new leaves and laterals are contributing to the > ripening of the fruit. *I do not hedge after the > first of August. *At this time the vines are > putting energy into ripening the fruit. > > Leaf pulling in the fruit zone is necessary in my > area (Mid Atlantic) to allow air circulation and > allow spray to reach clusters. *Also a dense > canopy offers a very hospitable hosts for fungi > and also areas where spray can not reach. If you > have yellow leaves in the interior of your > canopy, then the probably reason is that they > simply are not receiving enough sun. > > It should be noted that the leaves in the fruiting > zone are not providing much in the way of > carbohydrates to the vine by mid summer. *60 to > 90 days after opening they are in old age and not > contributing to anything except restriction of > air flow and spray. > > Where I live, the viticulturists runs research > farms that actually grow grapes so their work is > NOT strictly academic but tested by field trials > and experience. > > There has been and continues to be a difference of > opinion on controlling vigor. *At one time Dr. > Richard Smart promoted the idea of controlling > vigor by having greater vine spacing and longer > cordons. *This was tried and the result was very > long cordons with very high vigor and excessive > growth - in short - it did not work. > > It should be noted that what works for one in a > certain area may not work for others in a > different area or there may be differences > between varieties in a given area. > > The best advice is to experiment and see what > works best for you. |
viticulture advice
Mike McGeough wrote:
> wrote: >> I agree with evrything Lon said. Laterals are >> grown by the vine to help it ripen the grapes. >> Pruning them off is not the right thing. Nature really does not really give a flip whether the grapes are "ripe" in terms of winemaking "ripeness". Nature's only motive is perpetuation of the species. Laterals produce grapes. More grapes mean more food for birds and a greater chance for a few seeds to survive after the birds eat the grapes and "dispose" of the seeds and help spread the species. > > Bob: > > I've got to disagree here. My experience in the > rainy Northeast US is that leaving the laterals > on my FA hybrids, on my high-vigor site is a > recipe for dense, impenetrable growth , fungus > problems, and undrerripe fruit. My site gets 55 > to 60 inches of rain, has some tall surrounding > trees, and is crossed by several springs & > streams. Humidity is high from now til the Fall, > and then we get hurricanes. If I didn't pinch > the laterals, basal leaf strip, AND hedge the 6' > canes as they reach the ground, I'd get a poor > crop this year and a really sparse one next > year. > > Wanna know how I know this? Well, let's just say > I too read Dr Smart's "Sunlight into Wine". What > works in Australia & New Zealand Emphatically > doesn't work around here. It took a few years to > experiment with and recover from his advice. > > I do agree that basal leaf pulling seems to have > little effect on taste, > but we need to do it to air out the canopy. > Besides, those leaves > don't feed the berries anyway. > > > To Paul: > > It's my understanding that leaving the laterals > results in a lot of vegetative growth, and results in vegetative character to the wine. > and a > higher percentage of very young leaves, in > almost a geometric progression. The problem is > that the new leaves don't become net exporters > of carbohydrates until about 3 1/2 to 4 weeks of > age. I agree totally and this is why I think timing of hedging is important. Hedging will promote lateral growth so it is important that it is done before ripening commences and give a chance for the new leaves to be exporters. If I did not hedge, my shoots would be 20+ feet long. I have not heard anyone say what should be done with 20 long shoots - except hedge them. Yes, I have heard that forcing downward growth of the shoots can help de-vigor vines. It also is suppose to help prevent deer damage. I tried the "Lyre" trellising to help de-vigor the vines but man, talk about a jungle. I had a micro climate in the vineyard similar to that of a jungle because that is what it was. Keeping the middle free of shoots and laterals was VERY labor extensive - even for a small backyard vineyard. What you effectively end up with using your trellising system is 6 foot long shoots which is not unreasonable. There has been some research done that indicates that 4 feet is about the ideal length but I think that most of this research was done in California where drip irrigation can "IV" the vines to control vigor. > If there are a lot of laterals, they seem > to shade out the middle-aged, carb exporting > leaves deeper in the canopy, and the fruit has > delayed or incomplete ripening. Very true. > Maybe it would > be different in a sunnier, drier climate.This is > another counter-intuitive lesson that I learned > the hard way. I now remove all laterals and > non-fruiting canes. Me too. That is one of the advantages of cane pruning in my opinion; it GREATLY reduces the number of non-fruiting canes. It makes it easier to maintain the vineyard. > > > To Michael: > > My main method of dealing with my > enthusiastically growing vines is to train them > in the Sylvoz or High Curtain system, with a > single wire at about 6' and two movable catch > wires. Cordons run left & right on the wire, and > canes are swept under the catch wires, which are > gradually lowered until the canes hang down. > This really devigorates most varieties and keeps > the fruit at an easy picking height, and well > above soil splashed fungi & spores, something > you probably need to consider too. It also makes > it easier to cover the rows with bird netting. > When the canes make it to the ground, they > automatically get hedged when I mow the grassy > aisles. > > I hope you can find some of these ideas useful > > Great discussion, guys. > > Mike > > > Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA Thanks for your input, Mike. > > Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup > Services > ---------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.usenet.com |
viticulture advice
"Laterals produce grapes. "
No they don't . Not sure what part of the vine you think is a lateral but laterals don't produce grapes.. Mike: It sounds like you are growing grapes in soil too wet for optimal grape growing. In that case I guess you have no choice. I am lucky t have a well drained sandy soil where excessive moisture is never the problem. Not sure if the canopy is your only problem when it comes to fungus, your environment seems to be just as guilty in causing fungus problems. I would keep the grass short so it doesn't trap moisture under the long grass. Bob On Jun 23, 8:45 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote: > Mike McGeough wrote: > > wrote: > >> I agree with evrything Lon said. Laterals are > >> grown by the vine to help it ripen the grapes. > >> Pruning them off is not the right thing. > > Nature really does not really give a flip whether > the grapes are "ripe" in terms of winemaking > "ripeness". Nature's only motive is perpetuation > of the species. Laterals produce grapes. More > grapes mean more food for birds and a greater > chance for a few seeds to survive after the birds > eat the grapes and "dispose" of the seeds and > help spread the species. > > > > > > > Bob: > > > I've got to disagree here. My experience in the > > rainy Northeast US is that leaving the laterals > > on my FA hybrids, on my high-vigor site is a > > recipe for dense, impenetrable growth , fungus > > problems, and undrerripe fruit. My site gets 55 > > to 60 inches of rain, has some tall surrounding > > trees, and is crossed by several springs & > > streams. Humidity is high from now til the Fall, > > and then we get hurricanes. If I didn't pinch > > the laterals, basal leaf strip, AND hedge the 6' > > canes as they reach the ground, I'd get a poor > > crop this year and a really sparse one next > > year. > > > Wanna know how I know this? Well, let's just say > > I too read Dr Smart's "Sunlight into Wine". What > > works in Australia & New Zealand Emphatically > > doesn't work around here. It took a few years to > > experiment with and recover from his advice. > > > I do agree that basal leaf pulling seems to have > > little effect on taste, > > but we need to do it to air out the canopy. > > Besides, those leaves > > don't feed the berries anyway. > > > To Paul: > > > It's my understanding that leaving the laterals > > results in a lot of vegetative growth, > > and results in vegetative character to the wine. > > > and a > > higher percentage of very young leaves, in > > almost a geometric progression. The problem is > > that the new leaves don't become net exporters > > of carbohydrates until about 3 1/2 to 4 weeks of > > age. > > I agree totally and this is why I think timing of > hedging is important. Hedging will promote > lateral growth so it is important that it is done > before ripening commences and give a chance for > the new leaves to be exporters. > > If I did not hedge, my shoots would be 20+ feet > long. I have not heard anyone say what should be > done with 20 long shoots - except hedge them. > > Yes, I have heard that forcing downward growth of > the shoots can help de-vigor vines. It also is > suppose to help prevent deer damage. > > I tried the "Lyre" trellising to help de-vigor the > vines but man, talk about a jungle. I had a > micro climate in the vineyard similar to that of > a jungle because that is what it was. Keeping > the middle free of shoots and laterals was VERY > labor extensive - even for a small backyard > vineyard. > > What you effectively end up with using your > trellising system is 6 foot long shoots which is > not unreasonable. There has been some research > done that indicates that 4 feet is about the > ideal length but I think that most of this > research was done in California where drip > irrigation can "IV" the vines to control vigor. > > > If there are a lot of laterals, they seem > > to shade out the middle-aged, carb exporting > > leaves deeper in the canopy, and the fruit has > > delayed or incomplete ripening. > > Very true. > > > Maybe it would > > be different in a sunnier, drier climate.This is > > another counter-intuitive lesson that I learned > > the hard way. I now remove all laterals and > > non-fruiting canes. > > Me too. That is one of the advantages of cane > pruning in my opinion; it GREATLY reduces the > number of non-fruiting canes. It makes it easier > to maintain the vineyard. > > > > > > > To Michael: > > > My main method of dealing with my > > enthusiastically growing vines is to train them > > in the Sylvoz or High Curtain system, with a > > single wire at about 6' and two movable catch > > wires. Cordons run left & right on the wire, and > > canes are swept under the catch wires, which are > > gradually lowered until the canes hang down. > > This really devigorates most varieties and keeps > > the fruit at an easy picking height, and well > > above soil splashed fungi & spores, something > > you probably need to consider too. It also makes > > it easier to cover the rows with bird netting. > > When the canes make it to the ground, they > > automatically get hedged when I mow the grassy > > aisles. > > > I hope you can find some of these ideas useful > > > Great discussion, guys. > > > Mike > > > Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA > > Thanks for your input, Mike. > > > > > Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup > > Services > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > http://www.usenet.com |
viticulture advice
Mike,
One more thought. When grapes grow, they usually shoot laterals close to the fruiting area after bloom to aid in ripining. Those are the laterals that you should keep. Hedge the vine about 4 feet from the base of the shoot and hedge off any laterals that form from those hedges. If the laterals formed by the vine close to the fruiting area get to long, hedge them but dont cut them off totally. Maybe leave 2 feet on each lateral , there should be 2, and hedge off all other laterals formed because of the hedging below( I'm assuning high cordon). In a well drained soil you would have these problems but it is what it is and we have to deal with what we're dealt. ;) Bob On Jun 23, 8:03 pm, Mike McGeough > wrote: > wrote: > > I agree with evrything Lon said. Laterals are grown by the vine to > > help it ripen the grapes. Pruning them off is not the right thing. > > Bob: > > I've got to disagree here. My experience in the rainy Northeast US is > that leaving the laterals on my FA hybrids, on my high-vigor site is a > recipe for dense, impenetrable growth , fungus problems, and undrerripe > fruit. My site gets 55 to 60 inches of rain, has some tall surrounding > trees, and is crossed by several springs & streams. Humidity is high > from now til the Fall, and then we get hurricanes. If I didn't pinch the > laterals, basal leaf strip, AND hedge the 6' canes as they reach the > ground, I'd get a poor crop this year and a really sparse one next year. > > Wanna know how I know this? Well, let's just say I too read Dr Smart's > "Sunlight into Wine". What works in Australia & New Zealand Emphatically > doesn't work around here. It took a few years to experiment with and > recover from his advice. > > I do agree that basal leaf pulling seems to have little effect on taste, > but we need to do it to air out the canopy. Besides, those leaves > don't feed the berries anyway. > > To Paul: > > It's my understanding that leaving the laterals results in a lot of > vegetative growth, and a higher percentage of very young leaves, in > almost a geometric progression. The problem is that the new leaves don't > become net exporters of carbohydrates until about 3 1/2 to 4 weeks of > age. If there are a lot of laterals, they seem to shade out the > middle-aged, carb exporting leaves deeper in the canopy, and the fruit > has delayed or incomplete ripening. Maybe it would be different in a > sunnier, drier climate.This is another counter-intuitive lesson that I > learned the hard way. I now remove all laterals and non-fruiting canes. > > To Michael: > > My main method of dealing with my enthusiastically growing vines is to > train them in the Sylvoz or High Curtain system, with a single wire at > about 6' and two movable catch wires. Cordons run left & right on the > wire, and canes are swept under the catch wires, which are gradually > lowered until the canes hang down. This really devigorates most > varieties and keeps the fruit at an easy picking height, and well above > soil splashed fungi & spores, something you probably need to consider too. > It also makes it easier to cover the rows with bird netting. > When the canes make it to the ground, they automatically get hedged when > I mow the grassy aisles. > > I hope you can find some of these ideas useful > > Great discussion, guys. > > Mike > > Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA > > Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services > ---------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.usenet.com |
viticulture advice
"Besides, those leaves
don't feed the berries anyway. " Oh yeah they do. They are actually the most important on the shoot. Jun 23, 8:03 pm, Mike McGeough > wrote: > wrote: > > I agree with evrything Lon said. Laterals are grown by the vine to > > help it ripen the grapes. Pruning them off is not the right thing. > > Bob: > > I've got to disagree here. My experience in the rainy Northeast US is > that leaving the laterals on my FA hybrids, on my high-vigor site is a > recipe for dense, impenetrable growth , fungus problems, and undrerripe > fruit. My site gets 55 to 60 inches of rain, has some tall surrounding > trees, and is crossed by several springs & streams. Humidity is high > from now til the Fall, and then we get hurricanes. If I didn't pinch the > laterals, basal leaf strip, AND hedge the 6' canes as they reach the > ground, I'd get a poor crop this year and a really sparse one next year. > > Wanna know how I know this? Well, let's just say I too read Dr Smart's > "Sunlight into Wine". What works in Australia & New Zealand Emphatically > doesn't work around here. It took a few years to experiment with and > recover from his advice. > > I do agree that basal leaf pulling seems to have little effect on taste, > but we need to do it to air out the canopy. Besides, those leaves > don't feed the berries anyway. > > To Paul: > > It's my understanding that leaving the laterals results in a lot of > vegetative growth, and a higher percentage of very young leaves, in > almost a geometric progression. The problem is that the new leaves don't > become net exporters of carbohydrates until about 3 1/2 to 4 weeks of > age. If there are a lot of laterals, they seem to shade out the > middle-aged, carb exporting leaves deeper in the canopy, and the fruit > has delayed or incomplete ripening. Maybe it would be different in a > sunnier, drier climate.This is another counter-intuitive lesson that I > learned the hard way. I now remove all laterals and non-fruiting canes. > > To Michael: > > My main method of dealing with my enthusiastically growing vines is to > train them in the Sylvoz or High Curtain system, with a single wire at > about 6' and two movable catch wires. Cordons run left & right on the > wire, and canes are swept under the catch wires, which are gradually > lowered until the canes hang down. This really devigorates most > varieties and keeps the fruit at an easy picking height, and well above > soil splashed fungi & spores, something you probably need to consider too. > It also makes it easier to cover the rows with bird netting. > When the canes make it to the ground, they automatically get hedged when > I mow the grassy aisles. > > I hope you can find some of these ideas useful > > Great discussion, guys. > > Mike > > Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA > > Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services > ---------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.usenet.com |
viticulture advice
wrote:
> "Besides, those leaves > don't feed the berries anyway. " > > Oh yeah they do. They are actually the most important on the shoot. > Bob, I'm referring to the basal leaves, by which I mean the ones between the old wood and the fruit. What I've read, based on things like radioisotope tracers, indicates that the photosynthates produced by these leaves moves rootward in the stem, away from the fruit. If you can point me toward something which says otherwise, I'd love to read it. They get pulled about midsummer to let some sun in around the fruit. Regarding the wetness of my growing site, you're absolutely right: too wet, too fertile, a bit too little sun. Sigh... -- Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
viticulture advice
wrote:
> Mike, > > One more thought. When grapes grow, they usually shoot laterals close > to the fruiting area after bloom to aid in ripining. Those are the > laterals that you should keep. Hedge the vine about 4 feet from the > base of the shoot and hedge off any laterals that form from those > hedges. If the laterals formed by the vine close to the fruiting area > get to long, hedge them but dont cut them off totally. Maybe leave 2 > feet on each lateral , there should be 2, and hedge off all other > laterals formed because of the hedging below( I'm assuning high > cordon). > In a well drained soil you would have these problems but it is what > it is and we have to deal with what we're dealt. ;) > > Bob > Bob, I wish I could, but the growth is so vigorous that shading is an issue. In spite of that, I've been thinking of trying something along those lines anyway. Like keeping a limited number of nearby, hedged laterals to increase the leaf count per cluster, as you suggest. It might solve more problems than it creates. I once read that the question we should ask isn't "What should I do next?" but "What shouldn't I do next?" Thanks for the suggestion. I'll keep this post. Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services ---------------------------------------------------------- http://www.usenet.com |
viticulture advice
wrote:
> "Laterals produce grapes. " > > No they don't . Not sure what part of the vine > you think is a lateral but laterals don't > produce grapes.. > > Mike: Uh, care to come to central Maryland. I can show you a LOT of vineyards that have laterals with grapes - until they prune them off. I have some now that I need to prune them off. Come visit me. BTW, the definition of a "lateral is a shoot off the main shoot - a lateral. Where do you live? What varieties are you growing? I am always willing to learn from the experience of others. Please provide me with more details. > > It sounds like you are growing grapes in soil > too wet for optimal > grape growing. Dah, yes, for "optimal" that is true. I do not live in California or the Southwest or the semi desert areas of Oregon or Washington state. > In that case I guess you have no > choice. I am lucky t have a well drained sandy > soil where excessive moisture is never the > problem. I, also have a very well drained soil but I can not control the rainfall. > Not sure if the canopy is your only > problem when it comes to fungus, your > environment seems to be just as guilty in > causing fungus > problems. By "environment" if you include rainfall and humidity, yes that is true but I can not control this. By "environment" you if you include canopy management - yes indeed, I and other growers do all we can- including leaf pulling and hedging. > I would keep the grass short so it > doesn't trap moisture under the long grass. My vineyard is a backyard vineyard. I have a 40 inch strip with NO vegetation in the row. I HAND cultivate. In between the rows is grass which I mow the same as I do the rest of the yard. > > Bob > > On Jun 23, 8:45 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > > wrote: >> Mike McGeough wrote: >> > wrote: >> >> I agree with evrything Lon said. Laterals >> >> are grown by the vine to help it ripen the >> >> grapes. Pruning them off is not the right >> >> thing. >> >> Nature really does not really give a flip >> whether the grapes are "ripe" in terms of >> winemaking >> "ripeness". Nature's only motive is >> perpetuation >> of the species. Laterals produce grapes. More >> grapes mean more food for birds and a greater >> chance for a few seeds to survive after the >> birds eat the grapes and "dispose" of the seeds >> and help spread the species. >> >> >> >> >> >> > Bob: >> >> > I've got to disagree here. My experience in >> > the rainy Northeast US is that leaving the >> > laterals on my FA hybrids, on my high-vigor >> > site is a recipe for dense, impenetrable >> > growth , fungus problems, and undrerripe >> > fruit. My site gets 55 to 60 inches of rain, >> > has some tall surrounding trees, and is >> > crossed by several springs & streams. >> > Humidity is high from now til the Fall, and >> > then we get hurricanes. If I didn't pinch the >> > laterals, basal leaf strip, AND hedge the 6' >> > canes as they reach the ground, I'd get a >> > poor crop this year and a really sparse one >> > next year. >> >> > Wanna know how I know this? Well, let's just >> > say I too read Dr Smart's "Sunlight into >> > Wine". What works in Australia & New Zealand >> > Emphatically doesn't work around here. It >> > took a few years to experiment with and >> > recover from his advice. >> >> > I do agree that basal leaf pulling seems to >> > have little effect on taste, >> > but we need to do it to air out the canopy. >> > Besides, those leaves >> > don't feed the berries anyway. >> >> > To Paul: >> >> > It's my understanding that leaving the >> > laterals results in a lot of vegetative >> > growth, >> >> and results in vegetative character to the >> wine. >> >> > and a >> > higher percentage of very young leaves, in >> > almost a geometric progression. The problem >> > is that the new leaves don't become net >> > exporters of carbohydrates until about 3 1/2 >> > to 4 weeks of age. >> >> I agree totally and this is why I think timing >> of >> hedging is important. Hedging will promote >> lateral growth so it is important that it is >> done before ripening commences and give a >> chance for the new leaves to be exporters. >> >> If I did not hedge, my shoots would be 20+ feet >> long. I have not heard anyone say what should >> be done with 20 long shoots - except hedge >> them. >> >> Yes, I have heard that forcing downward growth >> of the shoots can help de-vigor vines. It also >> is suppose to help prevent deer damage. >> >> I tried the "Lyre" trellising to help de-vigor >> the >> vines but man, talk about a jungle. I had a >> micro climate in the vineyard similar to that >> of >> a jungle because that is what it was. Keeping >> the middle free of shoots and laterals was VERY >> labor extensive - even for a small backyard >> vineyard. >> >> What you effectively end up with using your >> trellising system is 6 foot long shoots which >> is >> not unreasonable. There has been some research >> done that indicates that 4 feet is about the >> ideal length but I think that most of this >> research was done in California where drip >> irrigation can "IV" the vines to control vigor. >> >> > If there are a lot of laterals, they seem >> > to shade out the middle-aged, carb exporting >> > leaves deeper in the canopy, and the fruit >> > has delayed or incomplete ripening. >> >> Very true. >> >> > Maybe it would >> > be different in a sunnier, drier climate.This >> > is another counter-intuitive lesson that I >> > learned the hard way. I now remove all >> > laterals and non-fruiting canes. >> >> Me too. That is one of the advantages of cane >> pruning in my opinion; it GREATLY reduces the >> number of non-fruiting canes. It makes it >> easier to maintain the vineyard. >> >> >> >> >> >> > To Michael: >> >> > My main method of dealing with my >> > enthusiastically growing vines is to train >> > them in the Sylvoz or High Curtain system, >> > with a single wire at about 6' and two >> > movable catch wires. Cordons run left & right >> > on the wire, and canes are swept under the >> > catch wires, which are gradually lowered >> > until the canes hang down. This really >> > devigorates most varieties and keeps the >> > fruit at an easy picking height, and well >> > above soil splashed fungi & spores, something >> > you probably need to consider too. It also >> > makes it easier to cover the rows with bird >> > netting. When the canes make it to the >> > ground, they automatically get hedged when I >> > mow the grassy aisles. >> >> > I hope you can find some of these ideas >> > useful >> >> > Great discussion, guys. >> >> > Mike >> >> > Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA >> >> Thanks for your input, Mike. >> >> >> >> > Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet >> > Newsgroup Services >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > http://www.usenet.com |
viticulture advice
wrote:
> "Besides, those leaves > don't feed the berries anyway. " > > Oh yeah they do. They are actually the most > important on the shoot. For the very initial development yes, but for more than 60 to 90 days please read "General Viticulture" by Winkler, Cook, Kliewer and Lider- one of the clasics in Viticulture - and get back with me on this topic. There are more references on this subject. Please provide me with contrary references. Where do you live? What varieties are you growing? > > > > Jun 23, 8:03 pm, Mike McGeough > > wrote: >> wrote: >> > I agree with evrything Lon said. Laterals are >> > grown by the vine to help it ripen the >> > grapes. Pruning them off is not the right >> > thing. >> >> Bob: >> >> I've got to disagree here. My experience in the >> rainy Northeast US is that leaving the laterals >> on my FA hybrids, on my high-vigor site is a >> recipe for dense, impenetrable growth , fungus >> problems, and undrerripe fruit. My site gets 55 >> to 60 inches of rain, has some tall surrounding >> trees, and is crossed by several springs & >> streams. Humidity is high from now til the >> Fall, and then we get hurricanes. If I didn't >> pinch the laterals, basal leaf strip, AND hedge >> the 6' canes as they reach the ground, I'd get >> a poor crop this year and a really sparse one >> next year. >> >> Wanna know how I know this? Well, let's just >> say I too read Dr Smart's "Sunlight into Wine". >> What works in Australia & New Zealand >> Emphatically doesn't work around here. It took >> a few years to experiment with and recover from >> his advice. >> >> I do agree that basal leaf pulling seems to >> have little effect on taste, >> but we need to do it to air out the canopy. >> Besides, those leaves >> don't feed the berries anyway. >> >> To Paul: >> >> It's my understanding that leaving the laterals >> results in a lot of vegetative growth, and a >> higher percentage of very young leaves, in >> almost a geometric progression. The problem is >> that the new leaves don't become net exporters >> of carbohydrates until about 3 1/2 to 4 weeks >> of age. If there are a lot of laterals, they >> seem to shade out the middle-aged, carb >> exporting leaves deeper in the canopy, and the >> fruit has delayed or incomplete ripening. Maybe >> it would be different in a sunnier, drier >> climate.This is another counter-intuitive >> lesson that I learned the hard way. I now >> remove all laterals and non-fruiting canes. >> >> To Michael: >> >> My main method of dealing with my >> enthusiastically growing vines is to train them >> in the Sylvoz or High Curtain system, with a >> single wire at about 6' and two movable catch >> wires. Cordons run left & right on the wire, >> and canes are swept under the catch wires, >> which are gradually lowered until the canes >> hang down. This really devigorates most >> varieties and keeps the fruit at an easy >> picking height, and well above soil splashed >> fungi & spores, something you probably need to >> consider too. It also makes it easier to cover >> the rows with bird netting. When the canes make >> it to the ground, they automatically get hedged >> when I mow the grassy aisles. >> >> I hope you can find some of these ideas useful >> >> Great discussion, guys. >> >> Mike >> >> Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA >> >> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup >> Services >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> http://www.usenet.com |
viticulture advice
wrote:
> Mike, > > One more thought. When grapes grow, they > usually shoot laterals close to the fruiting > area after bloom to aid in ripining. Those are > the laterals that you should keep. So, are you saying to keep the fruit from the laterals and cluster thin the clusters from the main shoot to provide even ripening? This does not make sense to me. Please explain. > Hedge the > vine about 4 feet from the base of the shoot and > hedge off any laterals that form from those > hedges. Those are the laterals that are going to provide the carbohydrates to ripen your fruit. Are you sure you want to remove all of them? > If the laterals formed by the vine close > to the fruiting area get to long, hedge them but > dont cut them off totally. Maybe leave 2 > feet on each lateral References appreciated, please. > , there should be 2, and > hedge off all other laterals formed because of > the hedging below( I'm assuning high cordon). > In a well drained soil you would have these > problems but it is what > it is and we have to deal with what we're dealt. > ;) Please provide location and varieties you are growing. > > Bob > > On Jun 23, 8:03 pm, Mike McGeough > > wrote: >> wrote: >> > I agree with evrything Lon said. Laterals are >> > grown by the vine to help it ripen the >> > grapes. Pruning them off is not the right >> > thing. >> >> Bob: >> >> I've got to disagree here. My experience in the >> rainy Northeast US is that leaving the laterals >> on my FA hybrids, on my high-vigor site is a >> recipe for dense, impenetrable growth , fungus >> problems, and undrerripe fruit. My site gets 55 >> to 60 inches of rain, has some tall surrounding >> trees, and is crossed by several springs & >> streams. Humidity is high from now til the >> Fall, and then we get hurricanes. If I didn't >> pinch the laterals, basal leaf strip, AND hedge >> the 6' canes as they reach the ground, I'd get >> a poor crop this year and a really sparse one >> next year. >> >> Wanna know how I know this? Well, let's just >> say I too read Dr Smart's "Sunlight into Wine". >> What works in Australia & New Zealand >> Emphatically doesn't work around here. It took >> a few years to experiment with and recover from >> his advice. >> >> I do agree that basal leaf pulling seems to >> have little effect on taste, >> but we need to do it to air out the canopy. >> Besides, those leaves >> don't feed the berries anyway. >> >> To Paul: >> >> It's my understanding that leaving the laterals >> results in a lot of vegetative growth, and a >> higher percentage of very young leaves, in >> almost a geometric progression. The problem is >> that the new leaves don't become net exporters >> of carbohydrates until about 3 1/2 to 4 weeks >> of age. If there are a lot of laterals, they >> seem to shade out the middle-aged, carb >> exporting leaves deeper in the canopy, and the >> fruit has delayed or incomplete ripening. Maybe >> it would be different in a sunnier, drier >> climate.This is another counter-intuitive >> lesson that I learned the hard way. I now >> remove all laterals and non-fruiting canes. >> >> To Michael: >> >> My main method of dealing with my >> enthusiastically growing vines is to train them >> in the Sylvoz or High Curtain system, with a >> single wire at about 6' and two movable catch >> wires. Cordons run left & right on the wire, >> and canes are swept under the catch wires, >> which are gradually lowered until the canes >> hang down. This really devigorates most >> varieties and keeps the fruit at an easy >> picking height, and well above soil splashed >> fungi & spores, something you probably need to >> consider too. It also makes it easier to cover >> the rows with bird netting. When the canes make >> it to the ground, they automatically get hedged >> when I mow the grassy aisles. >> >> I hope you can find some of these ideas useful >> >> Great discussion, guys. >> >> Mike >> >> Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA >> >> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup >> Services >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> http://www.usenet.com |
viticulture advice
Paul,
I think we have a terminology disagreement. I don't think it's physiologically possible for laterals to have grapes. I think grape clusters are already formed in the bud before the bud even breaks. The vine doesn't just create them on the fly. I thinkl you may be talking about secondary and tertiary buds that would break from the area close to where the primary bud is. Those are not laterals. Laterals are formed from green tissue.IOW, the growing shoot. As far as environment is concerned, if you saw how dry a sandy soil can be no matter how much rain falls you would be amazed. Well drained soil doesn't hold any water therefore there is no moisture to create humidity from water held in a soil like clay. Bob ..On Jun 27, 8:26 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote: > wrote: > > Mike, > > > One more thought. When grapes grow, they > > usually shoot laterals close to the fruiting > > area after bloom to aid in ripining. Those are > > the laterals that you should keep. > > So, are you saying to keep the fruit from the > laterals and cluster thin the clusters from the > main shoot to provide even ripening? This does > not make sense to me. Please explain. > > > Hedge the > > vine about 4 feet from the base of the shoot and > > hedge off any laterals that form from those > > hedges. > > Those are the laterals that are going to provide > the carbohydrates to ripen your fruit. Are you > sure you want to remove all of them? > > > If the laterals formed by the vine close > > to the fruiting area get to long, hedge them but > > dont cut them off totally. Maybe leave 2 > > feet on each lateral > > References appreciated, please. > > > , there should be 2, and > > hedge off all other laterals formed because of > > the hedging below( I'm assuning high cordon). > > In a well drained soil you would have these > > problems but it is what > > it is and we have to deal with what we're dealt. > > ;) > > Please provide location and varieties you are > growing. > > > > > > > Bob > > > On Jun 23, 8:03 pm, Mike McGeough > > > wrote: > >> wrote: > >> > I agree with evrything Lon said. Laterals are > >> > grown by the vine to help it ripen the > >> > grapes. Pruning them off is not the right > >> > thing. > > >> Bob: > > >> I've got to disagree here. My experience in the > >> rainy Northeast US is that leaving the laterals > >> on my FA hybrids, on my high-vigor site is a > >> recipe for dense, impenetrable growth , fungus > >> problems, and undrerripe fruit. My site gets 55 > >> to 60 inches of rain, has some tall surrounding > >> trees, and is crossed by several springs & > >> streams. Humidity is high from now til the > >> Fall, and then we get hurricanes. If I didn't > >> pinch the laterals, basal leaf strip, AND hedge > >> the 6' canes as they reach the ground, I'd get > >> a poor crop this year and a really sparse one > >> next year. > > >> Wanna know how I know this? Well, let's just > >> say I too read Dr Smart's "Sunlight into Wine". > >> What works in Australia & New Zealand > >> Emphatically doesn't work around here. It took > >> a few years to experiment with and recover from > >> his advice. > > >> I do agree that basal leaf pulling seems to > >> have little effect on taste, > >> but we need to do it to air out the canopy. > >> Besides, those leaves > >> don't feed the berries anyway. > > >> To Paul: > > >> It's my understanding that leaving the laterals > >> results in a lot of vegetative growth, and a > >> higher percentage of very young leaves, in > >> almost a geometric progression. The problem is > >> that the new leaves don't become net exporters > >> of carbohydrates until about 3 1/2 to 4 weeks > >> of age. If there are a lot of laterals, they > >> seem to shade out the middle-aged, carb > >> exporting leaves deeper in the canopy, and the > >> fruit has delayed or incomplete ripening. Maybe > >> it would be different in a sunnier, drier > >> climate.This is another counter-intuitive > >> lesson that I learned the hard way. I now > >> remove all laterals and non-fruiting canes. > > >> To Michael: > > >> My main method of dealing with my > >> enthusiastically growing vines is to train them > >> in the Sylvoz or High Curtain system, with a > >> single wire at about 6' and two movable catch > >> wires. Cordons run left & right on the wire, > >> and canes are swept under the catch wires, > >> which are gradually lowered until the canes > >> hang down. This really devigorates most > >> varieties and keeps the fruit at an easy > >> picking height, and well above soil splashed > >> fungi & spores, something you probably need to > >> consider too. It also makes it easier to cover > >> the rows with bird netting. When the canes make > >> it to the ground, they automatically get hedged > >> when I mow the grassy aisles. > > >> I hope you can find some of these ideas useful > > >> Great discussion, guys. > > >> Mike > > >> Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA > > >> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup > >> Services > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > >> http://www.usenet.com Paul, |
viticulture advice
wrote:
> Paul, > > I think we have a terminology disagreement. I > don't think it's physiologically possible for > laterals to have grapes. I think grape clusters > are already formed in the bud before the bud > even breaks. The vine doesn't just create them > on the fly. I thinkl you may be talking about > secondary and tertiary buds that would break > from the area close to where the primary bud is. No, I am not talking about secondary and tertiary buds. If you ever get a chance to come to the Mid Atlantic area, I can show you clusters on laterals. > Those are not laterals. Laterals are formed from > green tissue.IOW, the growing shoot. I know what laterals are. > As far as > environment is concerned, if you saw how dry a > sandy soil can be no matter how much rain falls > you would be amazed. Well drained soil doesn't > hold any water therefore there is no moisture to > create humidity from water held in a soil like > clay. > > Bob If you lived in the East, you would get a close and personal experience with Humidity - regardless of soil type. Where do you live? What are you growing? > > .On Jun 27, 8:26 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > > wrote: >> wrote: >> > Mike, >> >> > One more thought. When grapes grow, they >> > usually shoot laterals close to the fruiting >> > area after bloom to aid in ripining. Those >> > are the laterals that you should keep. >> >> So, are you saying to keep the fruit from the >> laterals and cluster thin the clusters from the >> main shoot to provide even ripening? This does >> not make sense to me. Please explain. >> >> > Hedge the >> > vine about 4 feet from the base of the shoot >> > and hedge off any laterals that form from >> > those hedges. >> >> Those are the laterals that are going to >> provide >> the carbohydrates to ripen your fruit. Are you >> sure you want to remove all of them? >> >> > If the laterals formed by the vine close >> > to the fruiting area get to long, hedge them >> > but dont cut them off totally. Maybe leave 2 >> > feet on each lateral >> >> References appreciated, please. >> >> > , there should be 2, and >> > hedge off all other laterals formed because >> > of the hedging below( I'm assuning high >> > cordon). >> > In a well drained soil you would have these >> > problems but it is what >> > it is and we have to deal with what we're >> > dealt. ;) >> >> Please provide location and varieties you are >> growing. >> >> >> >> >> >> > Bob >> >> > On Jun 23, 8:03 pm, Mike McGeough >> > > wrote: >> >> wrote: >> >> > I agree with evrything Lon said. Laterals >> >> > are grown by the vine to help it ripen the >> >> > grapes. Pruning them off is not the right >> >> > thing. >> >> >> Bob: >> >> >> I've got to disagree here. My experience in >> >> the rainy Northeast US is that leaving the >> >> laterals on my FA hybrids, on my high-vigor >> >> site is a recipe for dense, impenetrable >> >> growth , fungus problems, and undrerripe >> >> fruit. My site gets 55 to 60 inches of rain, >> >> has some tall surrounding trees, and is >> >> crossed by several springs & streams. >> >> Humidity is high from now til the Fall, and >> >> then we get hurricanes. If I didn't pinch >> >> the laterals, basal leaf strip, AND hedge >> >> the 6' canes as they reach the ground, I'd >> >> get a poor crop this year and a really >> >> sparse one next year. >> >> >> Wanna know how I know this? Well, let's just >> >> say I too read Dr Smart's "Sunlight into >> >> Wine". What works in Australia & New Zealand >> >> Emphatically doesn't work around here. It >> >> took a few years to experiment with and >> >> recover from his advice. >> >> >> I do agree that basal leaf pulling seems to >> >> have little effect on taste, >> >> but we need to do it to air out the >> >> canopy. Besides, those leaves >> >> don't feed the berries anyway. >> >> >> To Paul: >> >> >> It's my understanding that leaving the >> >> laterals results in a lot of vegetative >> >> growth, and a higher percentage of very >> >> young leaves, in almost a geometric >> >> progression. The problem is that the new >> >> leaves don't become net exporters of >> >> carbohydrates until about 3 1/2 to 4 weeks >> >> of age. If there are a lot of laterals, they >> >> seem to shade out the middle-aged, carb >> >> exporting leaves deeper in the canopy, and >> >> the fruit has delayed or incomplete >> >> ripening. Maybe it would be different in a >> >> sunnier, drier climate.This is another >> >> counter-intuitive lesson that I learned the >> >> hard way. I now remove all laterals and >> >> non-fruiting canes. >> >> >> To Michael: >> >> >> My main method of dealing with my >> >> enthusiastically growing vines is to train >> >> them in the Sylvoz or High Curtain system, >> >> with a single wire at about 6' and two >> >> movable catch wires. Cordons run left & >> >> right on the wire, and canes are swept under >> >> the catch wires, which are gradually lowered >> >> until the canes hang down. This really >> >> devigorates most varieties and keeps the >> >> fruit at an easy picking height, and well >> >> above soil splashed fungi & spores, >> >> something you probably need to consider too. >> >> It also makes it easier to cover the rows >> >> with bird netting. When the canes make it to >> >> the ground, they automatically get hedged >> >> when I mow the grassy aisles. >> >> >> I hope you can find some of these ideas >> >> useful >> >> >> Great discussion, guys. >> >> >> Mike >> >> >> Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA >> >> >> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet >> >> Newsgroup Services >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> http://www.usenet.com > > Paul, |
viticulture advice
I live about 50 miles north of NYC and grow mostly Chambourcin. I have
many other varieties which are not producing yet. BTW, I did fing some web site that said clusters can grow on laterals. I stand corrected. I've never seen it , and I've grown/growing many different grapes. What cultivars grow grapes on laterals? What are you growing? Bob On Jun 28, 7:14 am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote: > wrote: > > Paul, > > > I think we have a terminology disagreement. I > > don't think it's physiologically possible for > > laterals to have grapes. I think grape clusters > > are already formed in the bud before the bud > > even breaks. The vine doesn't just create them > > on the fly. I thinkl you may be talking about > > secondary and tertiary buds that would break > > from the area close to where the primary bud is. > > No, I am not talking about secondary and tertiary > buds. If you ever get a chance to come to the > Mid Atlantic area, I can show you clusters on > laterals. > > > Those are not laterals. Laterals are formed from > > green tissue.IOW, the growing shoot. > > I know what laterals are. > > > As far as > > environment is concerned, if you saw how dry a > > sandy soil can be no matter how much rain falls > > you would be amazed. Well drained soil doesn't > > hold any water therefore there is no moisture to > > create humidity from water held in a soil like > > clay. > > > Bob > > If you lived in the East, you would get a close > and personal experience with Humidity - > regardless of soil type. > > Where do you live? What are you growing? > > > > > > > .On Jun 27, 8:26 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > > > wrote: > >> wrote: > >> > Mike, > > >> > One more thought. When grapes grow, they > >> > usually shoot laterals close to the fruiting > >> > area after bloom to aid in ripining. Those > >> > are the laterals that you should keep. > > >> So, are you saying to keep the fruit from the > >> laterals and cluster thin the clusters from the > >> main shoot to provide even ripening? This does > >> not make sense to me. Please explain. > > >> > Hedge the > >> > vine about 4 feet from the base of the shoot > >> > and hedge off any laterals that form from > >> > those hedges. > > >> Those are the laterals that are going to > >> provide > >> the carbohydrates to ripen your fruit. Are you > >> sure you want to remove all of them? > > >> > If the laterals formed by the vine close > >> > to the fruiting area get to long, hedge them > >> > but dont cut them off totally. Maybe leave 2 > >> > feet on each lateral > > >> References appreciated, please. > > >> > , there should be 2, and > >> > hedge off all other laterals formed because > >> > of the hedging below( I'm assuning high > >> > cordon). > >> > In a well drained soil you would have these > >> > problems but it is what > >> > it is and we have to deal with what we're > >> > dealt. ;) > > >> Please provide location and varieties you are > >> growing. > > >> > Bob > > >> > On Jun 23, 8:03 pm, Mike McGeough > >> > > wrote: > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > I agree with evrything Lon said. Laterals > >> >> > are grown by the vine to help it ripen the > >> >> > grapes. Pruning them off is not the right > >> >> > thing. > > >> >> Bob: > > >> >> I've got to disagree here. My experience in > >> >> the rainy Northeast US is that leaving the > >> >> laterals on my FA hybrids, on my high-vigor > >> >> site is a recipe for dense, impenetrable > >> >> growth , fungus problems, and undrerripe > >> >> fruit. My site gets 55 to 60 inches of rain, > >> >> has some tall surrounding trees, and is > >> >> crossed by several springs & streams. > >> >> Humidity is high from now til the Fall, and > >> >> then we get hurricanes. If I didn't pinch > >> >> the laterals, basal leaf strip, AND hedge > >> >> the 6' canes as they reach the ground, I'd > >> >> get a poor crop this year and a really > >> >> sparse one next year. > > >> >> Wanna know how I know this? Well, let's just > >> >> say I too read Dr Smart's "Sunlight into > >> >> Wine". What works in Australia & New Zealand > >> >> Emphatically doesn't work around here. It > >> >> took a few years to experiment with and > >> >> recover from his advice. > > >> >> I do agree that basal leaf pulling seems to > >> >> have little effect on taste, > >> >> but we need to do it to air out the > >> >> canopy. Besides, those leaves > >> >> don't feed the berries anyway. > > >> >> To Paul: > > >> >> It's my understanding that leaving the > >> >> laterals results in a lot of vegetative > >> >> growth, and a higher percentage of very > >> >> young leaves, in almost a geometric > >> >> progression. The problem is that the new > >> >> leaves don't become net exporters of > >> >> carbohydrates until about 3 1/2 to 4 weeks > >> >> of age. If there are a lot of laterals, they > >> >> seem to shade out the middle-aged, carb > >> >> exporting leaves deeper in the canopy, and > >> >> the fruit has delayed or incomplete > >> >> ripening. Maybe it would be different in a > >> >> sunnier, drier climate.This is another > >> >> counter-intuitive lesson that I learned the > >> >> hard way. I now remove all laterals and > >> >> non-fruiting canes. > > >> >> To Michael: > > >> >> My main method of dealing with my > >> >> enthusiastically growing vines is to train > >> >> them in the Sylvoz or High Curtain system, > >> >> with a single wire at about 6' and two > >> >> movable catch wires. Cordons run left & > >> >> right on the wire, and canes are swept under > >> >> the catch wires, which are gradually lowered > >> >> until the canes hang down. This really > >> >> devigorates most varieties and keeps the > >> >> fruit at an easy picking height, and well > >> >> above soil splashed fungi & spores, > >> >> something you probably need to consider too. > >> >> It also makes it easier to cover the rows > >> >> with bird netting. When the canes make it to > >> >> the ground, they automatically get hedged > >> >> when I mow the grassy aisles. > > >> >> I hope you can find some of these ideas > >> >> useful > > >> >> Great discussion, guys. > > >> >> Mike > > >> >> Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA > > >> >> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet > >> >> Newsgroup Services > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >> >> http://www.usenet.com > > > Paul, |
viticulture advice
wrote:
> I live about 50 miles north of NYC and grow > mostly Chambourcin. I have many other varieties > which are not producing yet. BTW, I did fing > some web site that said clusters can grow on > laterals. I stand corrected. I've never seen it > , and I've grown/growing many different grapes. > What cultivars grow grapes on laterals? What are > you growing? > > Bob I am growing Merlot, Cabernet Franc and Cabernet Sauvignon. At one time I grew Chambourcin but I did not like the wine and I am still not crazy about it - even wine from other growers. I have heard that one of the tricks is to let it hang - a LONG time. Around here,(Central Maryland - Northern Virginia) some of the wineries are blending it with Tannat or other varieties. It does generally have good color. > > > On Jun 28, 7:14 am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > > wrote: >> wrote: >> > Paul, >> >> > I think we have a terminology disagreement. I >> > don't think it's physiologically possible for >> > laterals to have grapes. I think grape >> > clusters are already formed in the bud before >> > the bud even breaks. The vine doesn't just >> > create them on the fly. I thinkl you may be >> > talking about secondary and tertiary buds >> > that would break from the area close to where >> > the primary bud is. >> >> No, I am not talking about secondary and >> tertiary >> buds. If you ever get a chance to come to the >> Mid Atlantic area, I can show you clusters on >> laterals. >> >> > Those are not laterals. Laterals are formed >> > from green tissue.IOW, the growing shoot. >> >> I know what laterals are. >> >> > As far as >> > environment is concerned, if you saw how dry >> > a sandy soil can be no matter how much rain >> > falls you would be amazed. Well drained soil >> > doesn't hold any water therefore there is no >> > moisture to create humidity from water held >> > in a soil like clay. >> >> > Bob >> >> If you lived in the East, you would get a close >> and personal experience with Humidity - >> regardless of soil type. >> >> Where do you live? What are you growing? >> >> >> >> >> >> > .On Jun 27, 8:26 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" >> > > wrote: >> >> wrote: >> >> > Mike, >> >> >> > One more thought. When grapes grow, they >> >> > usually shoot laterals close to the >> >> > fruiting area after bloom to aid in >> >> > ripining. Those are the laterals that you >> >> > should keep. >> >> >> So, are you saying to keep the fruit from >> >> the laterals and cluster thin the clusters >> >> from the >> >> main shoot to provide even ripening? This >> >> does >> >> not make sense to me. Please explain. >> >> >> > Hedge the >> >> > vine about 4 feet from the base of the >> >> > shoot and hedge off any laterals that form >> >> > from those hedges. >> >> >> Those are the laterals that are going to >> >> provide >> >> the carbohydrates to ripen your fruit. Are >> >> you sure you want to remove all of them? >> >> >> > If the laterals formed by the vine close >> >> > to the fruiting area get to long, hedge >> >> > them but dont cut them off totally. Maybe >> >> > leave 2 >> >> > feet on each lateral >> >> >> References appreciated, please. >> >> >> > , there should be 2, and >> >> > hedge off all other laterals formed >> >> > because of the hedging below( I'm assuning >> >> > high cordon). >> >> > In a well drained soil you would have >> >> > these problems but it is what >> >> > it is and we have to deal with what we're >> >> > dealt. ;) >> >> >> Please provide location and varieties you >> >> are growing. >> >> >> > Bob >> >> >> > On Jun 23, 8:03 pm, Mike McGeough >> >> > > wrote: >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > I agree with evrything Lon said. >> >> >> > Laterals are grown by the vine to help >> >> >> > it ripen the grapes. Pruning them off >> >> >> > is not the right thing. >> >> >> >> Bob: >> >> >> >> I've got to disagree here. My experience >> >> >> in the rainy Northeast US is that leaving >> >> >> the laterals on my FA hybrids, on my >> >> >> high-vigor site is a recipe for dense, >> >> >> impenetrable growth , fungus problems, >> >> >> and undrerripe fruit. My site gets 55 to >> >> >> 60 inches of rain, has some tall >> >> >> surrounding trees, and is crossed by >> >> >> several springs & streams. Humidity is >> >> >> high from now til the Fall, and then we >> >> >> get hurricanes. If I didn't pinch the >> >> >> laterals, basal leaf strip, AND hedge the >> >> >> 6' canes as they reach the ground, I'd >> >> >> get a poor crop this year and a really >> >> >> sparse one next year. >> >> >> >> Wanna know how I know this? Well, let's >> >> >> just say I too read Dr Smart's "Sunlight >> >> >> into Wine". What works in Australia & New >> >> >> Zealand Emphatically doesn't work around >> >> >> here. It took a few years to experiment >> >> >> with and recover from his advice. >> >> >> >> I do agree that basal leaf pulling seems >> >> >> to have little effect on taste, >> >> >> but we need to do it to air out the >> >> >> canopy. Besides, those leaves >> >> >> don't feed the berries anyway. >> >> >> >> To Paul: >> >> >> >> It's my understanding that leaving the >> >> >> laterals results in a lot of vegetative >> >> >> growth, and a higher percentage of very >> >> >> young leaves, in almost a geometric >> >> >> progression. The problem is that the new >> >> >> leaves don't become net exporters of >> >> >> carbohydrates until about 3 1/2 to 4 >> >> >> weeks of age. If there are a lot of >> >> >> laterals, they seem to shade out the >> >> >> middle-aged, carb exporting leaves deeper >> >> >> in the canopy, and the fruit has delayed >> >> >> or incomplete ripening. Maybe it would be >> >> >> different in a sunnier, drier >> >> >> climate.This is another counter-intuitive >> >> >> lesson that I learned the hard way. I now >> >> >> remove all laterals and non-fruiting >> >> >> canes. >> >> >> >> To Michael: >> >> >> >> My main method of dealing with my >> >> >> enthusiastically growing vines is to >> >> >> train them in the Sylvoz or High Curtain >> >> >> system, with a single wire at about 6' >> >> >> and two movable catch wires. Cordons run >> >> >> left & right on the wire, and canes are >> >> >> swept under the catch wires, which are >> >> >> gradually lowered until the canes hang >> >> >> down. This really devigorates most >> >> >> varieties and keeps the fruit at an easy >> >> >> picking height, and well above soil >> >> >> splashed fungi & spores, something you >> >> >> probably need to consider too. It also >> >> >> makes it easier to cover the rows with >> >> >> bird netting. When the canes make it to >> >> >> the ground, they automatically get hedged >> >> >> when I mow the grassy aisles. >> >> >> >> I hope you can find some of these ideas >> >> >> useful >> >> >> >> Great discussion, guys. >> >> >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> Mike MTM, Cokesbury, NJ, USA >> >> >> >> Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet >> >> >> Newsgroup Services >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.usenet.com >> >> > Paul, |
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