I usually make red wine in 6-8 gallon batches, always from grapes.
About 3-4 years ago, I started aging in small french oak barrels,
initially with really good results. But lately, I'm getting a
definite acetone smell in my reds, especially the cabs and nebbiolos.
I think I'm coming to the same conclusion that I've read in lots of
places...that "small barrels are like wooden sailboats...the idea
sounds great, but in practice they're more trouble than they're
worth". Usually, I just empty one barrel, wash it out with hot water,
then re-fill with another wine.

I have a couple of questions:
1. Once you have a problem with volatile acidity in a barrel, is
there any recourse other than to throw away the barrel?

2. When you empty your barrels, if you don't have another wine ready
to put right back in the emptied barrel, what do you put in it?

3. If I wanted to treat my barrels with something, what would you
use?

4. What is your experience with small barrels?

Thanks,

Lee

Lee wrote:

> I usually make red wine in 6-8 gallon batches,
> always from grapes. About 3-4 years ago, I
> started aging in small french oak barrels,
> initially with really good results. But lately,
> I'm getting a definite acetone smell in my reds,
> especially the cabs and nebbiolos. I think I'm
> coming to the same conclusion that I've read in
> lots of places...that "small barrels are like
> wooden sailboats...the idea sounds great, but in
> practice they're more trouble than they're
> worth". Usually, I just empty one barrel, wash
> it out with hot water, then re-fill with another
> wine.
>
> I have a couple of questions:
> 1. Once you have a problem with volatile
> acidity in a barrel, is there any recourse other
> than to throw away the barrel?

Not that I am aware of.

>
> 2. When you empty your barrels, if you don't
> have another wine ready to put right back in the
> emptied barrel, what do you put in it?

You can store dry but should burn some sulphur in
it occasionally.

>
> 3. If I wanted to treat my barrels with
> something, what would you use?
>
> 4. What is your experience with small barrels?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Lee

I have been using a 10 gallon barrel for about
seven years now. It has never been empty. I
bottle and refill immediately. I think one of
the best things to do is keep your pH around 3.5
and periodically check your free SO2 levels as
barrels don't retain the SO2 for very long. Small
additions every two to three months is
preferable to a large dose after a longer time
interval. If you do not have an AO apparatus for
checking your free SO2, you can send out to a
lab. I am going to get the AO test equipment
this year.

On Jan 1, 3:40 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> Lee wrote:
> > I usually make red wine in 6-8 gallon batches,
> > always from grapes. About 3-4 years ago, I
> > started aging in small french oak barrels,
> > initially with really good results. But lately,
> > I'm getting a definite acetone smell in my reds,
> > especially the cabs and nebbiolos. I think I'm
> > coming to the same conclusion that I've read in
> > lots of places...that "small barrels are like
> > wooden sailboats...the idea sounds great, but in
> > practice they're more trouble than they're
> > worth". Usually, I just empty one barrel, wash
> > it out with hot water, then re-fill with another
> > wine.
>
> > I have a couple of questions:
> > 1. Once you have a problem with volatile
> > acidity in a barrel, is there any recourse other
> > than to throw away the barrel?
>
> Not that I am aware of.
>
>
>
> > 2. When you empty your barrels, if you don't
> > have another wine ready to put right back in the
> > emptied barrel, what do you put in it?
>
> You can store dry but should burn some sulphur in
> it occasionally.
>
>
>
> > 3. If I wanted to treat my barrels with
> > something, what would you use?
>
> > 4. What is your experience with small barrels?
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > Lee
>
> I have been using a 10 gallon barrel for about
> seven years now. It has never been empty. I
> bottle and refill immediately. I think one of
> the best things to do is keep your pH around 3.5
> and periodically check your free SO2 levels as
> barrels don't retain the SO2 for very long. Small
> additions every two to three months is
> preferable to a large dose after a longer time
> interval. If you do not have an AO apparatus for
> checking your free SO2, you can send out to a
> lab. I am going to get the AO test equipment
> this year.

I'm with Paul on all that but I do make red wine vinegar also. If you
are sure it's acetone I do think it's usefulness as a wine barrel is
over but it's usefulness as a vinegar barrel has just begun.
Everything that makes a small barrel a pain for wine plays to
vinegar. Homemade vinegar is pretty awesome.

I know this sounds like a huge waste but the only thing I can think of
to recover them is to take them apart, scrape them to bare wood and re-
toast.

Joe

On Jan 1, 8:29*am, Lee > wrote:
> I usually make red wine in 6-8 gallon batches, always from grapes.
> About 3-4 years ago, I started aging in small french oak barrels,
> initially with really good results. *But lately, I'm getting a
> definite acetone smell in my reds, especially the cabs and nebbiolos.
> I think I'm coming to the same conclusion that I've read in lots of
> places...that "small barrels are like wooden sailboats...the idea
> sounds great, but in practice they're more trouble than they're
> worth". *Usually, I just empty one barrel, wash it out with hot water,
> then re-fill with another wine.
>
> I have a couple of questions:
> 1. *Once you have a problem with volatile acidity in a barrel, is
> there any recourse other than to throw away the barrel?
>
> 2. *When you empty your barrels, if you don't have another wine ready
> to put right back in the emptied barrel, what do you put in it?
>
> 3. *If I wanted to treat my barrels with something, what would you
> use?
>
> 4. *What is your experience with small barrels?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Lee

Haven't tried this myself but several people I know swear by ozone
treatment of the barrel - if you can get an access to an ozone
machine.

Pp

Dear Lee:

On Jan 1, 9:29*am, Lee > wrote:
> I usually make red wine in 6-8 gallon batches, always from
> grapes. About 3-4 years ago, I started aging in small french
> oak barrels, initially with really good results. *But lately, I'm
> getting a definite acetone smell in my reds, especially the
> cabs and nebbiolos. I think I'm coming to the same
> conclusion that I've read in lots of places...that "small barrels
> are like wooden sailboats...the idea sounds great, but in
> practice they're more trouble than they're worth". *Usually, I
> just empty one barrel, wash it out with hot water, then re-fill
> with another wine.
>
> I have a couple of questions:
> 1. *Once you have a problem with volatile acidity in a barrel, is
> there any recourse other than to throw away the barrel?

If you are in wine country, barrel rinsing equipment that uses ozone
should be readily available. Companies like Mazzei and McClain Ozone
(and more) make small systems that will let you "recondition" the
barrels prior to reuse.

This method is used for large and small barrels, for brews from wine
to aged hard liquor.

David A. Smith

To the best of my knowledge, ozone is an excellent alternative to
burning sulfur - but is not a treatment for a tainted barrel.

On 2008-01-02 09:46:03 -0800, pp > said:
>
> Haven't tried this myself but several people I know swear by ozone
> treatment of the barrel - if you can get an access to an ozone
> machine.
>
> Pp

Dear AxisOfBeagles:

On Jan 2, 12:37*pm, AxisOfBeagles > wrote:
> To the best of my knowledge, ozone is an excellent alternative to
> burning sulfur - but is not a treatment for a tainted barrel.

http://www.carlsenassociates.com/web...O3-Article.pdf

Seems like it can be a treatment for tainted barrels also.

David A. Smith

On Jan 2, 3:31*pm, dlzc > wrote:
> Dear AxisOfBeagles:
>
> On Jan 2, 12:37*pm, AxisOfBeagles > wrote:
>
> > To the best of my knowledge, ozone is an excellent alternative to
> > burning sulfur - but is not a treatment for a tainted barrel.
>
> http://www.carlsenassociates.com/web...O3-Article.pdf
>
> Seems like it can be a treatment for tainted barrels also.
>
> David A. Smith

Great link, thanks.

Joe

First, thank you for an excellent link. But I fail to see where the
article suggests that ozone is a treatment for tainted barrels, other
than the Fresno study showing that ozone killed a brett infection. If
the taint, as indicated in the OP, is a VA problem (such as an
acetobacter contamination) then I still find no indication that ozone
is a treatment for such.

I agree with the primary premise of the article - ozone is arguably the
most effective barrel sanitizer available, imaprts no taint of it's own
to the barrel, is environmentally less imapctful than many
alternatives, and seems to have no adverse impact on the qualities of
the oak that the winemaker desires. But other than the one study
regarding Brett, this article does not seem to suggest that ozone is a
treatment for barrel contaminations that result in VA in your wine.
Does it?



On 2008-01-02 12:31:45 -0800, dlzc > said:
>
> http://www.carlsenassociates.com/web...O3-Article.pdf
>
> Seems like it can be a treatment for tainted barrels also.
>
> David A. Smith

Dear AxisOfBeagles:

On Jan 3, 12:12*pm, AxisOfBeagles > wrote:
> First, thank you for an excellent link.

Actually, you can thank Google... ;>)

> But I fail to see where the
> article suggests that ozone is a treatment for tainted barrels,
> other than the Fresno study showing that ozone killed a
> brett infection. If the taint, as indicated in the OP, is a VA
> problem (such as an acetobacter contamination) then I still
> find no indication that ozone is a treatment for such.

The link specifically states that acetobacter is killed by ozone.

http://www.oxicom.es/eng/embotellado...o_barricas.php
http://www.icwt.net/conference/Ozone...ron%20Tapp.pdf
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0...shing-hot.html
... (not pushing membership, nor can I read the entire article)
http://www.newworldwinemaker.com/art...ent.asp?id=159
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...ournalCode=fri
http://www.springerlink.com/content/t1299uj3g2n82562/

> I agree with the primary premise of the article - ozone is
> arguably the most effective barrel sanitizer available, imaprts
> no taint of it's own to the barrel,

... it can be a little hard on the natural epoxy binder. I remember
seeing a customer's installation that decided he did not need an ozone
destruct unit, and how his wooden shingles near the offgas vent looked
after two months...

> is environmentally less imapctful than many alternatives,
> and seems to have no adverse impact on the qualities of
> the oak that the winemaker desires. But other than the
> one study regarding Brett, this article does not seem to
> suggest that ozone is a treatment for barrel contaminations
> that result in VA in your wine. Does it?

See links above. Only one of which is actual peer reviewed
literature.

> >http://www.carlsenassociates.com/web...O3-Article.pdf
>
> > Seems like it can be a treatment for tainted barrels also.

Ozone only has difficulties with slime-forming, colony-forming
organisms.

A "soak" probably would not be advantageous, but a vigorous spray
should place high concentration ozone near the barrel wall.

http://www.bionewsonline.com/q/1/microbial_d.htm
... gaseous ozone and treatment of viable barley for fungus

http://www.asm.org/Media/index.asp?bid=42949
... even inactivation of "mad cow" prions with ozone (which surprised
the hell out of me).

Just can't ignore the ozone offgas.

David A. Smith

An 'acetone' smell in my experience is consistent with ethyl acetate, a
reaction between acetic acid and ethanol. An acetobacter infected
barrel can result in ethyl acetate in the wine.

As discussed by others' responses, ozone will reduce acetobacter in a
barrel. Whether or not it can eliminate it depends on how deep into the
oak the acetobacter has penetrated. If it is surface or near-surface,
ozone is very effective at killing the acetobacter.

Ozone 'eats' (oxizides) the wood as well as killing bacteria, so it gets
used up. This limits the efficiency of ozone for killing deeply
penetrated acetobactor infection.

So it is worth a try to use ozone (via ozonated water spray) to see if
it 'recovers' your barrel. It will likely work, but may not in all cases.

I've used ozonated water in industrial applications as well as for
washing wine barrels. In addition to being a strong
sanitizer/disinfectant, ozone is very aggressive at degrading plastics
and rubber via attacking the carbon-carbon double bonds. It also slowly
oxidizes cellulosic materials like oak. Ozone is a double-edged sword.

Gene

Lee wrote:
> I usually make red wine in 6-8 gallon batches, always from grapes.
> About 3-4 years ago, I started aging in small french oak barrels,
> initially with really good results. But lately, I'm getting a
> definite acetone smell in my reds, especially the cabs and nebbiolos.
> I think I'm coming to the same conclusion that I've read in lots of
> places...that "small barrels are like wooden sailboats...the idea
> sounds great, but in practice they're more trouble than they're
> worth". Usually, I just empty one barrel, wash it out with hot water,
> then re-fill with another wine.
>
> I have a couple of questions:
> 1. Once you have a problem with volatile acidity in a barrel, is
> there any recourse other than to throw away the barrel?
>
> 2. When you empty your barrels, if you don't have another wine ready
> to put right back in the emptied barrel, what do you put in it?
>
> 3. If I wanted to treat my barrels with something, what would you
> use?
>
> 4. What is your experience with small barrels?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Lee