After reading the comments about mold in primary fermentation stage; we
started 4 gallons of apple cider but the temp was bad and we had green mold
on top of the cider (just apple juice let to ferment by itself, no yeast or
other additives).

We ended up throwing it down the drain, but could we have saved the juice by
adding yeast???

Any comments/help would be appreciated. We're new at all this stuff!

Cathy

On Oct 25, 4:39 pm, "Cathy Boer" > wrote:
> After reading the comments about mold in primary fermentation stage; we
> started 4 gallons of apple cider but the temp was bad and we had green mold
> on top of the cider (just apple juice let to ferment by itself, no yeast or
> other additives).
>
> We ended up throwing it down the drain, but could we have saved the juice by
> adding yeast???
>
> Any comments/help would be appreciated. We're new at all this stuff!
>
> Cathy

Yes, you could have saved it. Mold usually takes several days to take
hold, if you would have used one packet of wine yeast the juice would
begin fermenting sooner and would have made the environment less
hospitable to mold.

Joe

Kathy,

Bacterial spoilage can be corrected by adding sugar and re-fermenting.
I got this advice from a reputable winemaker. If wine has bacterial
spoilage either add it to next years batch or add sugar and referment.
Obviously the re-fermented batch will be stronger but it will be
drinkable. Use Champagne yeast if alcohol is already present. The
first time I used this advice was a couple days ago and it worked
great.

Bob


On Oct 25, 3:39 pm, "Cathy Boer" > wrote:
> After reading the comments about mold in primary fermentation stage; we
> started 4 gallons of apple cider but the temp was bad and we had green mold
> on top of the cider (just apple juice let to ferment by itself, no yeast or
> other additives).
>
> We ended up throwing it down the drain, but could we have saved the juice by
> adding yeast???
>
> Any comments/help would be appreciated. We're new at all this stuff!
>
> Cathy

wrote:

> Kathy,
>
> Bacterial spoilage can be corrected by adding
> sugar and re-fermenting. I got this advice from
> a reputable winemaker. If wine has bacterial
> spoilage either add it to next years batch or
> add sugar and referment. Obviously the
> re-fermented batch will be stronger but it will
> be drinkable. Use Champagne yeast if alcohol is
> already present. The first time I used this
> advice was a couple days ago and it worked
> great.
>
> Bob

I do not think this is good advice. I suggest
Kathy not to take it.

A packet of wine yeast is NOT expensive.


>
>
> On Oct 25, 3:39 pm, "Cathy Boer"
> > wrote:
>> After reading the comments about mold in
>> primary fermentation stage; we started 4
>> gallons of apple cider but the temp was bad and
>> we had green mold on top of the cider (just
>> apple juice let to ferment by itself, no yeast
>> or other additives).
>>
>> We ended up throwing it down the drain, but
>> could we have saved the juice by adding
>> yeast???
>>
>> Any comments/help would be appreciated. We're
>> new at all this stuff!
>>
>> Cathy

Why is it not good advice? I'm not saying she shouldn't add yeast to
ferment. I'm saying that spoiled wine can be fixed. What is the worst
that can happen, pouring it down the drain anyway?

Bob


On Oct 25, 8:05 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > Kathy,
>
> > Bacterial spoilage can be corrected by adding
> > sugar and re-fermenting. I got this advice from
> > a reputable winemaker. If wine has bacterial
> > spoilage either add it to next years batch or
> > add sugar and referment. Obviously the
> > re-fermented batch will be stronger but it will
> > be drinkable. Use Champagne yeast if alcohol is
> > already present. The first time I used this
> > advice was a couple days ago and it worked
> > great.
>
> > Bob
>
> I do not think this is good advice. I suggest
> Kathy not to take it.
>
> A packet of wine yeast is NOT expensive.
>
>
>
> > On Oct 25, 3:39 pm, "Cathy Boer"
> > > wrote:
> >> After reading the comments about mold in
> >> primary fermentation stage; we started 4
> >> gallons of apple cider but the temp was bad and
> >> we had green mold on top of the cider (just
> >> apple juice let to ferment by itself, no yeast
> >> or other additives).
>
> >> We ended up throwing it down the drain, but
> >> could we have saved the juice by adding
> >> yeast???
>
> >> Any comments/help would be appreciated. We're
> >> new at all this stuff!
>
> >> Cathy

wrote:

> Why is it not good advice? I'm not saying she
> shouldn't add yeast to ferment. I'm saying that
> spoiled wine can be fixed. What is the worst
> that can happen, pouring it down the drain
> anyway?
>
> Bob
>
>
> On Oct 25, 8:05 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann"
> > wrote:

In my opinion, adding sugar and yeasts will merely
cover up the problem and not cure it. It also
leads to or supports sloppy winemaking practices.

It is also possible to have the spoilage
organism(s) spread to other places in the
location in which the wine is being made.

These are merely my opinions and of course
everyone has their own and do what they think is
best or works for them.


>> wrote:
>> > Kathy,
>>
>> > Bacterial spoilage can be corrected by adding
>> > sugar and re-fermenting. I got this advice
>> > from a reputable winemaker. If wine has
>> > bacterial spoilage either add it to next
>> > years batch or add sugar and referment.
>> > Obviously the re-fermented batch will be
>> > stronger but it will be drinkable. Use
>> > Champagne yeast if alcohol is already
>> > present. The first time I used this advice
>> > was a couple days ago and it worked great.
>>
>> > Bob
>>
>> I do not think this is good advice. I suggest
>> Kathy not to take it.
>>
>> A packet of wine yeast is NOT expensive.
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Oct 25, 3:39 pm, "Cathy Boer"
>> > > wrote:
>> >> After reading the comments about mold in
>> >> primary fermentation stage; we started 4
>> >> gallons of apple cider but the temp was bad
>> >> and we had green mold on top of the cider
>> >> (just apple juice let to ferment by itself,
>> >> no yeast or other additives).
>>
>> >> We ended up throwing it down the drain, but
>> >> could we have saved the juice by adding
>> >> yeast???
>>
>> >> Any comments/help would be appreciated.
>> >> We're new at all this stuff!
>>
>> >> Cathy

The two Paul's in this thread would make good Republican Presidential
candidates. Instilling IRRATIONAL FEAR into anyone who ever came
across mold or a bad smelling wine. On the contrary, there are no
known pathogens that exist in wine. It's the reason the Board of
Health exempts wineries from reqiurements of section 20C. Has anyone
on this board heard of anyone getting sick from bad wine? Anyone?
Frederick mentioned the push down of the cap. Both Pauls have pushed
those "toxins" down into the wine hundreds of times and didn't even
know it. Those toxins are always there. Even SO2 doesn't kill them.
SO2 puts them in suspended animation until the SO2 levels drop. Bleach
would kill them but then there really would be "toxins" in the wine.
How many "toxins" have people drunk in this world when the SO2 levels
of the wine they are drinking become low?? Just because you can't see
them doesn't mean they are not there and it's ironic that the cap
keeps getting pushed into the fermenting must to kill them. Maybe the
fermentation does do something. Imagine that.

Bob


On Oct 25, 8:57 pm, Paul Arthur > wrote:
> On 2007-10-25, Cathy Boer > wrote:
>
> > After reading the comments about mold in primary fermentation stage; we
> > started 4 gallons of apple cider but the temp was bad and we had green mold
> > on top of the cider (just apple juice let to ferment by itself, no yeast or
> > other additives).
>
> > We ended up throwing it down the drain, but could we have saved the juice by
> > adding yeast???
>
> > Any comments/help would be appreciated. We're new at all this stuff!
>
> It depends on how advanced the mold is. If you catch it fairly
> quickly and it's only on top, you can rack the must out from under the
> mold (leaving behind a couple of inches to make sure you don't carry
> the mold into the new fermenter) and pitch yeast. If it's been growing
> for a while toss it, as the mold produces toxins that will have spread
> throughout the must and cannot be easily removed.
>
> --
> I just forgot my whole philosophy of life!!!

I forgot to mention the crush. Grapes are never washed before the
crush. Do you realize how much bird shit is on those grapes? How much
echoli bacteria is in the musts before the fermentaion? How do the two
Pauls deal with that? Oh, that's right, they pitch the yeast.

Bob

On Oct 26, 9:08 am, wrote:
> The two Paul's in this thread would make good Republican Presidential
> candidates. Instilling IRRATIONAL FEAR into anyone who ever came
> across mold or a bad smelling wine. On the contrary, there are no
> known pathogens that exist in wine. It's the reason the Board of
> Health exempts wineries from reqiurements of section 20C. Has anyone
> on this board heard of anyone getting sick from bad wine? Anyone?
> Frederick mentioned the push down of the cap. Both Pauls have pushed
> those "toxins" down into the wine hundreds of times and didn't even
> know it. Those toxins are always there. Even SO2 doesn't kill them.
> SO2 puts them in suspended animation until the SO2 levels drop. Bleach
> would kill them but then there really would be "toxins" in the wine.
> How many "toxins" have people drunk in this world when the SO2 levels
> of the wine they are drinking become low?? Just because you can't see
> them doesn't mean they are not there and it's ironic that the cap
> keeps getting pushed into the fermenting must to kill them. Maybe the
> fermentation does do something. Imagine that.
>
> Bob
>
> On Oct 25, 8:57 pm, Paul Arthur > wrote:
>
> > On 2007-10-25, Cathy Boer > wrote:
>
> > > After reading the comments about mold in primary fermentation stage; we
> > > started 4 gallons of apple cider but the temp was bad and we had green mold
> > > on top of the cider (just apple juice let to ferment by itself, no yeast or
> > > other additives).
>
> > > We ended up throwing it down the drain, but could we have saved the juice by
> > > adding yeast???
>
> > > Any comments/help would be appreciated. We're new at all this stuff!
>
> > It depends on how advanced the mold is. If you catch it fairly
> > quickly and it's only on top, you can rack the must out from under the
> > mold (leaving behind a couple of inches to make sure you don't carry
> > the mold into the new fermenter) and pitch yeast. If it's been growing
> > for a while toss it, as the mold produces toxins that will have spread
> > throughout the must and cannot be easily removed.
>
> > --
> > I just forgot my whole philosophy of life!!!

Surface mold grows on the surface film for a reason. That is where
it finds the "living conditions" it requires. Relatively stable,
relatively dry, and abundant oxygen. Had you stirred the juice/must
2 or 3 times a day, you would have disrupted these "living
conditions" long enough for the yeast to get started. Even when the
yeast gets going, you need to keep stiring once or twice a day
so long as there remains any solids or foam on the surface that
might dry out enough to let the mold get reestablished.

When you see advice about things like stiring, pump over, punch
down, etc., take heed. There are always reasons for the things
we do. HTH

Frederick


"Cathy Boer" > wrote in message
news:Q97Ui.35368$G25.34609@edtnps89...
> After reading the comments about mold in primary fermentation stage; we
> started 4 gallons of apple cider but the temp was bad and we had green
> mold on top of the cider (just apple juice let to ferment by itself, no
> yeast or other additives).
>
> We ended up throwing it down the drain, but could we have saved the juice
> by adding yeast???
>
> Any comments/help would be appreciated. We're new at all this stuff!
>
> Cathy
>
>

wrote:

> The two Paul's in this thread would make good
> Republican Presidential
> candidates.

I would have to change my party affiliation before
I did that

> Instilling IRRATIONAL FEAR into
> anyone who ever came across mold or a bad
> smelling wine.

If you want to drink bad smelling "wine", be my
guest. If you want to risk contaminating other
things in your winery, go ahead. I am not the
wine police I am merely making suggestions.

> On the contrary, there are no
> known pathogens that exist in wine.

I don't believe the "cider" had enough sugar to
make "wine". The words we

..."temp was bad and we had green mold on top of
the cider (just apple juice let to ferment by
itself, no yeast or other additives)."

> It's the
> reason the Board of Health exempts wineries from
> reqiurements of section 20C. Has anyone on this
> board heard of anyone getting sick from bad
> wine? Anyone?

Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill no. Of
course, to the best of my knowledge, I have never
drunk a low alcohol beverage that had green mold
growing on it. To each his own. Happy wine -
errr - beverage making

> Frederick mentioned the push down
> of the cap. Both Pauls have pushed those
> "toxins" down into the wine hundreds of times
> and didn't even know it. Those toxins are always
> there. Even SO2 doesn't kill them. SO2 puts them
> in suspended animation until the SO2 levels
> drop. Bleach would kill them but then there
> really would be "toxins" in the wine. How many
> "toxins" have people drunk in this world when
> the SO2 levels of the wine they are drinking
> become low?? Just because you can't see them
> doesn't mean they are not there and it's ironic
> that the cap keeps getting pushed into the
> fermenting must to kill them. Maybe the
> fermentation does do something. Imagine that.
>
> Bob
>
>
> On Oct 25, 8:57 pm, Paul Arthur
> > wrote:
>> On 2007-10-25, Cathy Boer >
>> wrote:
>>
>> > After reading the comments about mold in
>> > primary fermentation stage; we started 4
>> > gallons of apple cider but the temp was bad
>> > and we had green mold on top of the cider
>> > (just apple juice let to ferment by itself,
>> > no yeast or other additives).
>>
>> > We ended up throwing it down the drain, but
>> > could we have saved the juice by adding
>> > yeast???
>>
>> > Any comments/help would be appreciated.
>> > We're new at all this stuff!
>>
>> It depends on how advanced the mold is. If you
>> catch it fairly quickly and it's only on top,
>> you can rack the must out from under the mold
>> (leaving behind a couple of inches to make sure
>> you don't carry
>> the mold into the new fermenter) and pitch
>> yeast. If it's been growing for a while toss
>> it, as the mold produces toxins that will have
>> spread throughout the must and cannot be easily
>> removed.
>>
>> --
>> I just forgot my whole philosophy of life!!!

Cents everyone has 2 pennies of advice, here is mine. :*) (yes, I know I
spelled it wrong)

Adding yeast would have helped. Possibly adding sugar, but it depends on
the S.G. With yeast so inexpensive, I would never let fruit or grapes
ferment on their own, though I realize that's the way they did it 2000
years ago, they also didn't have $.99 yeast packets available.

Some of the best grapes and fruit for making wine is over ripe, meaning
all kinds of mold and stuff is happening to them.

I also agree with several comments above about catching it quickly (not
4 months later) and racking out the top mold.

IMHO.

My apple cider wine was made two years ago and will be in the bottle
another year before it's close to ready. But it is promising!

I do appreciate learning from everyone's 2 cents - I got a pocket full
of change now a-days.
DAve

Cathy Boer wrote:
> After reading the comments about mold in primary fermentation stage; we
> started 4 gallons of apple cider but the temp was bad and we had green mold
> on top of the cider (just apple juice let to ferment by itself, no yeast or
> other additives).
>
> We ended up throwing it down the drain, but could we have saved the juice by
> adding yeast???
>
> Any comments/help would be appreciated. We're new at all this stuff!
>
> Cathy
>
>

> If you want to drink bad smelling "wine", be my
> guest. If you want to risk contaminating other
> things in your winery, go ahead. I am not the
> wine police I am merely making suggestions.

I'm making suggestions myself based on my observations and experiences
combined with info given to me by a good winemaker. I'm not suggesting
drinking bad stuff, I'm suggesting a method to fix it.

"Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill no. Of
> course, to the best of my knowledge, I have never
> drunk a low alcohol beverage that had green mold
> growing on it. To each his own. Happy wine -
> errr - beverage making "

I haven't even heard of anyone getting sick. Like I said, I'm
suggesting ways to fix it not ways to drink it.



"On Oct 26, 11:54 am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > The two Paul's in this thread would make good
> > Republican Presidential
> > candidates.
>
> I would have to change my party affiliation before
> I did that
>
> > Instilling IRRATIONAL FEAR into
> > anyone who ever came across mold or a bad
> > smelling wine.
>
> If you want to drink bad smelling "wine", be my
> guest. If you want to risk contaminating other
> things in your winery, go ahead. I am not the
> wine police I am merely making suggestions.
>
> > On the contrary, there are no
> > known pathogens that exist in wine.
>
> I don't believe the "cider" had enough sugar to
> make "wine". The words we
>
> .."temp was bad and we had green mold on top of
> the cider (just apple juice let to ferment by
> itself, no yeast or other additives)."
>
> > It's the
> > reason the Board of Health exempts wineries from
> > reqiurements of section 20C. Has anyone on this
> > board heard of anyone getting sick from bad
> > wine? Anyone?
>
> Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill no. Of
> course, to the best of my knowledge, I have never
> drunk a low alcohol beverage that had green mold
> growing on it. To each his own. Happy wine -
> errr - beverage making
>
> > Frederick mentioned the push down
> > of the cap. Both Pauls have pushed those
> > "toxins" down into the wine hundreds of times
> > and didn't even know it. Those toxins are always
> > there. Even SO2 doesn't kill them. SO2 puts them
> > in suspended animation until the SO2 levels
> > drop. Bleach would kill them but then there
> > really would be "toxins" in the wine. How many
> > "toxins" have people drunk in this world when
> > the SO2 levels of the wine they are drinking
> > become low?? Just because you can't see them
> > doesn't mean they are not there and it's ironic
> > that the cap keeps getting pushed into the
> > fermenting must to kill them. Maybe the
> > fermentation does do something. Imagine that.
>
> > Bob
>
> > On Oct 25, 8:57 pm, Paul Arthur
> > > wrote:
> >> On 2007-10-25, Cathy Boer >
> >> wrote:
>
> >> > After reading the comments about mold in
> >> > primary fermentation stage; we started 4
> >> > gallons of apple cider but the temp was bad
> >> > and we had green mold on top of the cider
> >> > (just apple juice let to ferment by itself,
> >> > no yeast or other additives).
>
> >> > We ended up throwing it down the drain, but
> >> > could we have saved the juice by adding
> >> > yeast???
>
> >> > Any comments/help would be appreciated.
> >> > We're new at all this stuff!
>
> >> It depends on how advanced the mold is. If you
> >> catch it fairly quickly and it's only on top,
> >> you can rack the must out from under the mold
> >> (leaving behind a couple of inches to make sure
> >> you don't carry
> >> the mold into the new fermenter) and pitch
> >> yeast. If it's been growing for a while toss
> >> it, as the mold produces toxins that will have
> >> spread throughout the must and cannot be easily
> >> removed.
>
> >> --
> >> I just forgot my whole philosophy of life!!!

wrote:

>> If you want to drink bad smelling "wine", be my
>> guest. If you want to risk contaminating other
>> things in your winery, go ahead. I am not the
>> wine police I am merely making suggestions.
>
> I'm making suggestions myself based on my
> observations and experiences combined with info
> given to me by a good winemaker. I'm not
> suggesting drinking bad stuff, I'm suggesting a
> method to fix it.
>
> "Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill no.
> Of
>> course, to the best of my knowledge, I have
>> never drunk a low alcohol beverage that had
>> green mold
>> growing on it. To each his own. Happy wine -
>> errr - beverage making "
>
> I haven't even heard of anyone getting sick.
> Like I said, I'm suggesting ways to fix it not
> ways to drink it.

I think Cathy has enough information to make her
decision.

>
>
>
> "On Oct 26, 11:54 am, "Paul E. Lehmann"
> > wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > The two Paul's in this thread would make good
>> > Republican Presidential
>> > candidates.
>>
>> I would have to change my party affiliation
>> before I did that
>>
>> > Instilling IRRATIONAL FEAR into
>> > anyone who ever came across mold or a bad
>> > smelling wine.
>>
>> If you want to drink bad smelling "wine", be my
>> guest. If you want to risk contaminating other
>> things in your winery, go ahead. I am not the
>> wine police I am merely making suggestions.
>>
>> > On the contrary, there are no
>> > known pathogens that exist in wine.
>>
>> I don't believe the "cider" had enough sugar to
>> make "wine". The words we
>>
>> .."temp was bad and we had green mold on top of
>> the cider (just apple juice let to ferment by
>> itself, no yeast or other additives)."
>>
>> > It's the
>> > reason the Board of Health exempts wineries
>> > from reqiurements of section 20C. Has anyone
>> > on this board heard of anyone getting sick
>> > from bad wine? Anyone?
>>
>> Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill no.
>> Of course, to the best of my knowledge, I have
>> never drunk a low alcohol beverage that had
>> green mold
>> growing on it. To each his own. Happy wine -
>> errr - beverage making
>>
>> > Frederick mentioned the push down
>> > of the cap. Both Pauls have pushed those
>> > "toxins" down into the wine hundreds of times
>> > and didn't even know it. Those toxins are
>> > always there. Even SO2 doesn't kill them. SO2
>> > puts them in suspended animation until the
>> > SO2 levels drop. Bleach would kill them but
>> > then there really would be "toxins" in the
>> > wine. How many "toxins" have people drunk in
>> > this world when the SO2 levels of the wine
>> > they are drinking become low?? Just because
>> > you can't see them doesn't mean they are not
>> > there and it's ironic that the cap keeps
>> > getting pushed into the fermenting must to
>> > kill them. Maybe the fermentation does do
>> > something. Imagine that.
>>
>> > Bob
>>
>> > On Oct 25, 8:57 pm, Paul Arthur
>> > > wrote:
>> >> On 2007-10-25, Cathy Boer >
>> >> wrote:
>>
>> >> > After reading the comments about mold in
>> >> > primary fermentation stage; we started 4
>> >> > gallons of apple cider but the temp was
>> >> > bad and we had green mold on top of the
>> >> > cider (just apple juice let to ferment by
>> >> > itself, no yeast or other additives).
>>
>> >> > We ended up throwing it down the drain,
>> >> > but could we have saved the juice by
>> >> > adding yeast???
>>
>> >> > Any comments/help would be appreciated.
>> >> > We're new at all this stuff!
>>
>> >> It depends on how advanced the mold is. If
>> >> you catch it fairly quickly and it's only on
>> >> top, you can rack the must out from under
>> >> the mold (leaving behind a couple of inches
>> >> to make sure you don't carry
>> >> the mold into the new fermenter) and pitch
>> >> yeast. If it's been growing for a while
>> >> toss it, as the mold produces toxins that
>> >> will have spread throughout the must and
>> >> cannot be easily removed.
>>
>> >> --
>> >> I just forgot my whole philosophy of life!!!

You can never have enough info. If she makes a decision based on the
limited info presented here, I will guarantee it will be an ill-
informed decision.

Bob


On Oct 30, 11:56 am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> wrote:
> >> If you want to drink bad smelling "wine", be my
> >> guest. If you want to risk contaminating other
> >> things in your winery, go ahead. I am not the
> >> wine police I am merely making suggestions.
>
> > I'm making suggestions myself based on my
> > observations and experiences combined with info
> > given to me by a good winemaker. I'm not
> > suggesting drinking bad stuff, I'm suggesting a
> > method to fix it.
>
> > "Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill no.
> > Of
> >> course, to the best of my knowledge, I have
> >> never drunk a low alcohol beverage that had
> >> green mold
> >> growing on it. To each his own. Happy wine -
> >> errr - beverage making "
>
> > I haven't even heard of anyone getting sick.
> > Like I said, I'm suggesting ways to fix it not
> > ways to drink it.
>
> I think Cathy has enough information to make her
> decision.
>
>
>
> > "On Oct 26, 11:54 am, "Paul E. Lehmann"
> > > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > The two Paul's in this thread would make good
> >> > Republican Presidential
> >> > candidates.
>
> >> I would have to change my party affiliation
> >> before I did that
>
> >> > Instilling IRRATIONAL FEAR into
> >> > anyone who ever came across mold or a bad
> >> > smelling wine.
>
> >> If you want to drink bad smelling "wine", be my
> >> guest. If you want to risk contaminating other
> >> things in your winery, go ahead. I am not the
> >> wine police I am merely making suggestions.
>
> >> > On the contrary, there are no
> >> > known pathogens that exist in wine.
>
> >> I don't believe the "cider" had enough sugar to
> >> make "wine". The words we
>
> >> .."temp was bad and we had green mold on top of
> >> the cider (just apple juice let to ferment by
> >> itself, no yeast or other additives)."
>
> >> > It's the
> >> > reason the Board of Health exempts wineries
> >> > from reqiurements of section 20C. Has anyone
> >> > on this board heard of anyone getting sick
> >> > from bad wine? Anyone?
>
> >> Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill no.
> >> Of course, to the best of my knowledge, I have
> >> never drunk a low alcohol beverage that had
> >> green mold
> >> growing on it. To each his own. Happy wine -
> >> errr - beverage making
>
> >> > Frederick mentioned the push down
> >> > of the cap. Both Pauls have pushed those
> >> > "toxins" down into the wine hundreds of times
> >> > and didn't even know it. Those toxins are
> >> > always there. Even SO2 doesn't kill them. SO2
> >> > puts them in suspended animation until the
> >> > SO2 levels drop. Bleach would kill them but
> >> > then there really would be "toxins" in the
> >> > wine. How many "toxins" have people drunk in
> >> > this world when the SO2 levels of the wine
> >> > they are drinking become low?? Just because
> >> > you can't see them doesn't mean they are not
> >> > there and it's ironic that the cap keeps
> >> > getting pushed into the fermenting must to
> >> > kill them. Maybe the fermentation does do
> >> > something. Imagine that.
>
> >> > Bob
>
> >> > On Oct 25, 8:57 pm, Paul Arthur
> >> > > wrote:
> >> >> On 2007-10-25, Cathy Boer >
> >> >> wrote:
>
> >> >> > After reading the comments about mold in
> >> >> > primary fermentation stage; we started 4
> >> >> > gallons of apple cider but the temp was
> >> >> > bad and we had green mold on top of the
> >> >> > cider (just apple juice let to ferment by
> >> >> > itself, no yeast or other additives).
>
> >> >> > We ended up throwing it down the drain,
> >> >> > but could we have saved the juice by
> >> >> > adding yeast???
>
> >> >> > Any comments/help would be appreciated.
> >> >> > We're new at all this stuff!
>
> >> >> It depends on how advanced the mold is. If
> >> >> you catch it fairly quickly and it's only on
> >> >> top, you can rack the must out from under
> >> >> the mold (leaving behind a couple of inches
> >> >> to make sure you don't carry
> >> >> the mold into the new fermenter) and pitch
> >> >> yeast. If it's been growing for a while
> >> >> toss it, as the mold produces toxins that
> >> >> will have spread throughout the must and
> >> >> cannot be easily removed.
>
> >> >> --
> >> >> I just forgot my whole philosophy of life!!!

Sadly there seems to be a degree of derision on this thread as well as
the useful opinions and information. The information is useful, the
derision is not.

I am not sure myself as to whether all byproducts of bacterial
spoilage are neutralised when the alcohol levels rise high enough to
kill the infection. I couldn't find much online about it and I don't
know whether many of these byproducts are poisonous either.
Information and opinion given by long-term winemakers on this thread
is interesting though and does help to form a strategy as well as
opinion.

I'd be interesting to hear more on this subject. Perhaps the lack of
testimony from people quoting a negative experience shows that there
is rarely a problem with procedures suggested. Perhaps it just shows
that they haven't read this thread yet.

Jim (a newb)



On Oct 31, 2:28 pm, wrote:
> You can never have enough info. If she makes a decision based on the
> limited info presented here, I will guarantee it will be an ill-
> informed decision.
>
> Bob
>
> On Oct 30, 11:56 am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
> > wrote:
> > >> If you want to drink bad smelling "wine", be my
> > >> guest. If you want to risk contaminating other
> > >> things in your winery, go ahead. I am not the
> > >> wine police I am merely making suggestions.
>
> > > I'm making suggestions myself based on my
> > > observations and experiences combined with info
> > > given to me by a good winemaker. I'm not
> > > suggesting drinking bad stuff, I'm suggesting a
> > > method to fix it.
>
> > > "Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill no.
> > > Of
> > >> course, to the best of my knowledge, I have
> > >> never drunk a low alcohol beverage that had
> > >> green mold
> > >> growing on it. To each his own. Happy wine -
> > >> errr - beverage making "
>
> > > I haven't even heard of anyone getting sick.
> > > Like I said, I'm suggesting ways to fix it not
> > > ways to drink it.
>
> > I think Cathy has enough information to make her
> > decision.
>
> > > "On Oct 26, 11:54 am, "Paul E. Lehmann"
> > > > wrote:
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > The two Paul's in this thread would make good
> > >> > Republican Presidential
> > >> > candidates.
>
> > >> I would have to change my party affiliation
> > >> before I did that
>
> > >> > Instilling IRRATIONAL FEAR into
> > >> > anyone who ever came across mold or a bad
> > >> > smelling wine.
>
> > >> If you want to drink bad smelling "wine", be my
> > >> guest. If you want to risk contaminating other
> > >> things in your winery, go ahead. I am not the
> > >> wine police I am merely making suggestions.
>
> > >> > On the contrary, there are no
> > >> > known pathogens that exist in wine.
>
> > >> I don't believe the "cider" had enough sugar to
> > >> make "wine". The words we
>
> > >> .."temp was bad and we had green mold on top of
> > >> the cider (just apple juice let to ferment by
> > >> itself, no yeast or other additives)."
>
> > >> > It's the
> > >> > reason the Board of Health exempts wineries
> > >> > from reqiurements of section 20C. Has anyone
> > >> > on this board heard of anyone getting sick
> > >> > from bad wine? Anyone?
>
> > >> Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill no.
> > >> Of course, to the best of my knowledge, I have
> > >> never drunk a low alcohol beverage that had
> > >> green mold
> > >> growing on it. To each his own. Happy wine -
> > >> errr - beverage making
>
> > >> > Frederick mentioned the push down
> > >> > of the cap. Both Pauls have pushed those
> > >> > "toxins" down into the wine hundreds of times
> > >> > and didn't even know it. Those toxins are
> > >> > always there. Even SO2 doesn't kill them. SO2
> > >> > puts them in suspended animation until the
> > >> > SO2 levels drop. Bleach would kill them but
> > >> > then there really would be "toxins" in the
> > >> > wine. How many "toxins" have people drunk in
> > >> > this world when the SO2 levels of the wine
> > >> > they are drinking become low?? Just because
> > >> > you can't see them doesn't mean they are not
> > >> > there and it's ironic that the cap keeps
> > >> > getting pushed into the fermenting must to
> > >> > kill them. Maybe the fermentation does do
> > >> > something. Imagine that.
>
> > >> > Bob
>
> > >> > On Oct 25, 8:57 pm, Paul Arthur
> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> >> On 2007-10-25, Cathy Boer >
> > >> >> wrote:
>
> > >> >> > After reading the comments about mold in
> > >> >> > primary fermentation stage; we started 4
> > >> >> > gallons of apple cider but the temp was
> > >> >> > bad and we had green mold on top of the
> > >> >> > cider (just apple juice let to ferment by
> > >> >> > itself, no yeast or other additives).
>
> > >> >> > We ended up throwing it down the drain,
> > >> >> > but could we have saved the juice by
> > >> >> > adding yeast???
>
> > >> >> > Any comments/help would be appreciated.
> > >> >> > We're new at all this stuff!
>
> > >> >> It depends on how advanced the mold is. If
> > >> >> you catch it fairly quickly and it's only on
> > >> >> top, you can rack the must out from under
> > >> >> the mold (leaving behind a couple of inches
> > >> >> to make sure you don't carry
> > >> >> the mold into the new fermenter) and pitch
> > >> >> yeast. If it's been growing for a while
> > >> >> toss it, as the mold produces toxins that
> > >> >> will have spread throughout the must and
> > >> >> cannot be easily removed.
>
> > >> >> --
> > >> >> I just forgot my whole philosophy of life!!!

I'm not worried about the derision. What worries me is advice given
without any examples to back it up. Statements like " I wouldn't do
that" without a reason why just doesn't cut it. Reasons like "That
doesn't sound too appetizing" is not very scientific.

Bob

On Oct 31, 10:16 am, jim > wrote:
> Sadly there seems to be a degree of derision on this thread as well as
> the useful opinions and information. The information is useful, the
> derision is not.
>
> I am not sure myself as to whether all byproducts of bacterial
> spoilage are neutralised when the alcohol levels rise high enough to
> kill the infection. I couldn't find much online about it and I don't
> know whether many of these byproducts are poisonous either.
> Information and opinion given by long-term winemakers on this thread
> is interesting though and does help to form a strategy as well as
> opinion.
>
> I'd be interesting to hear more on this subject. Perhaps the lack of
> testimony from people quoting a negative experience shows that there
> is rarely a problem with procedures suggested. Perhaps it just shows
> that they haven't read this thread yet.
>
> Jim (a newb)
>
> On Oct 31, 2:28 pm, wrote:
>
> > You can never have enough info. If she makes a decision based on the
> > limited info presented here, I will guarantee it will be an ill-
> > informed decision.
>
> > Bob
>
> > On Oct 30, 11:56 am, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
>
> > > wrote:
> > > >> If you want to drink bad smelling "wine", be my
> > > >> guest. If you want to risk contaminating other
> > > >> things in your winery, go ahead. I am not the
> > > >> wine police I am merely making suggestions.
>
> > > > I'm making suggestions myself based on my
> > > > observations and experiences combined with info
> > > > given to me by a good winemaker. I'm not
> > > > suggesting drinking bad stuff, I'm suggesting a
> > > > method to fix it.
>
> > > > "Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill no.
> > > > Of
> > > >> course, to the best of my knowledge, I have
> > > >> never drunk a low alcohol beverage that had
> > > >> green mold
> > > >> growing on it. To each his own. Happy wine -
> > > >> errr - beverage making "
>
> > > > I haven't even heard of anyone getting sick.
> > > > Like I said, I'm suggesting ways to fix it not
> > > > ways to drink it.
>
> > > I think Cathy has enough information to make her
> > > decision.
>
> > > > "On Oct 26, 11:54 am, "Paul E. Lehmann"
> > > > > wrote:
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >> > The two Paul's in this thread would make good
> > > >> > Republican Presidential
> > > >> > candidates.
>
> > > >> I would have to change my party affiliation
> > > >> before I did that
>
> > > >> > Instilling IRRATIONAL FEAR into
> > > >> > anyone who ever came across mold or a bad
> > > >> > smelling wine.
>
> > > >> If you want to drink bad smelling "wine", be my
> > > >> guest. If you want to risk contaminating other
> > > >> things in your winery, go ahead. I am not the
> > > >> wine police I am merely making suggestions.
>
> > > >> > On the contrary, there are no
> > > >> > known pathogens that exist in wine.
>
> > > >> I don't believe the "cider" had enough sugar to
> > > >> make "wine". The words we
>
> > > >> .."temp was bad and we had green mold on top of
> > > >> the cider (just apple juice let to ferment by
> > > >> itself, no yeast or other additives)."
>
> > > >> > It's the
> > > >> > reason the Board of Health exempts wineries
> > > >> > from reqiurements of section 20C. Has anyone
> > > >> > on this board heard of anyone getting sick
> > > >> > from bad wine? Anyone?
>
> > > >> Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill no.
> > > >> Of course, to the best of my knowledge, I have
> > > >> never drunk a low alcohol beverage that had
> > > >> green mold
> > > >> growing on it. To each his own. Happy wine -
> > > >> errr - beverage making
>
> > > >> > Frederick mentioned the push down
> > > >> > of the cap. Both Pauls have pushed those
> > > >> > "toxins" down into the wine hundreds of times
> > > >> > and didn't even know it. Those toxins are
> > > >> > always there. Even SO2 doesn't kill them. SO2
> > > >> > puts them in suspended animation until the
> > > >> > SO2 levels drop. Bleach would kill them but
> > > >> > then there really would be "toxins" in the
> > > >> > wine. How many "toxins" have people drunk in
> > > >> > this world when the SO2 levels of the wine
> > > >> > they are drinking become low?? Just because
> > > >> > you can't see them doesn't mean they are not
> > > >> > there and it's ironic that the cap keeps
> > > >> > getting pushed into the fermenting must to
> > > >> > kill them. Maybe the fermentation does do
> > > >> > something. Imagine that.
>
> > > >> > Bob
>
> > > >> > On Oct 25, 8:57 pm, Paul Arthur
> > > >> > > wrote:
> > > >> >> On 2007-10-25, Cathy Boer >
> > > >> >> wrote:
>
> > > >> >> > After reading the comments about mold in
> > > >> >> > primary fermentation stage; we started 4
> > > >> >> > gallons of apple cider but the temp was
> > > >> >> > bad and we had green mold on top of the
> > > >> >> > cider (just apple juice let to ferment by
> > > >> >> > itself, no yeast or other additives).
>
> > > >> >> > We ended up throwing it down the drain,
> > > >> >> > but could we have saved the juice by
> > > >> >> > adding yeast???
>
> > > >> >> > Any comments/help would be appreciated.
> > > >> >> > We're new at all this stuff!
>
> > > >> >> It depends on how advanced the mold is. If
> > > >> >> you catch it fairly quickly and it's only on
> > > >> >> top, you can rack the must out from under
> > > >> >> the mold (leaving behind a couple of inches
> > > >> >> to make sure you don't carry
> > > >> >> the mold into the new fermenter) and pitch
> > > >> >> yeast. If it's been growing for a while
> > > >> >> toss it, as the mold produces toxins that
> > > >> >> will have spread throughout the must and
> > > >> >> cannot be easily removed.
>
> > > >> >> --
> > > >> >> I just forgot my whole philosophy of life!!!

wrote:

> I'm not worried about the derision. What worries
> me is advice given without any examples to back
> it up. Statements like " I wouldn't do that"
> without a reason why just doesn't cut it.
> Reasons like "That doesn't sound too appetizing"
> is not very scientific.
>
> Bob

Bob,

The reason I especially like this newsgroup is
because there is no (or very little) flaming. If
you want to see what some other newsgroups have
become, just visit some of the political or
computer newsgroups.

If you want some (non scientific) backing from me
it would be (IMHO), that mold WILL produce SOME
byproducts that may not be desireable in the
final product. Examples would be Brett and VA
infections not to mention some possible more
serious ones depending on part of the percnet
alcohol, pH etc.

There are a LOT of different kinds of mold and I
am not an expert and I doubt that is your case.
I will leave this topic to the experts.

From what I have read, green mold is
characteristic of Penicillian. Maybe that is
what is being grown by the OP, maybe not.
Maybe it would produce no harm, maybe not.

I am not a biologist and I do not know what
percentage of alcohol would protect a must from
byproducts that would affect the product (wine or
cider) in an adverse manner taste or possible
heath issues. The advice I gave errors on the
side of caution.

It may very well be the case that the advice you
gave is acceptable (in this particular case) but
can you be sure that it will cause no harm in all
cases? I think this is the question that should
be asked.

The OP is NOT talking about a LARGE quantity of
cider (wine), at least not by my definition. If
in doubt AND if the OP were making a LARGE
quantity of wine or cider, then I think the very
best advice I could give would be to send a
sample to a lab. Most labs are reasonable -
especially if we are talking about large volumes
of product. If we are NOT talking about large
volumes then I think my advice still stands.

I am quite sure you will disagree based on YOUR
experience but like the old saying goes "Your
mileage may vary.

I hope we can all benefit from a dialog and get
along. That is my primary concern.

Paul



>
> On Oct 31, 10:16 am, jim >
> wrote:
>> Sadly there seems to be a degree of derision on
>> this thread as well as
>> the useful opinions and information. The
>> information is useful, the derision is not.
>>
>> I am not sure myself as to whether all
>> byproducts of bacterial spoilage are
>> neutralised when the alcohol levels rise high
>> enough to
>> kill the infection. I couldn't find much
>> online about it and I don't know whether many
>> of these byproducts are poisonous either.
>> Information and opinion given by long-term
>> winemakers on this thread is interesting though
>> and does help to form a strategy as well as
>> opinion.
>>
>> I'd be interesting to hear more on this
>> subject. Perhaps the lack of testimony from
>> people quoting a negative experience shows that
>> there
>> is rarely a problem with procedures suggested.
>> Perhaps it just shows that they haven't read
>> this thread yet.
>>
>> Jim (a newb)
>>
>> On Oct 31, 2:28 pm, wrote:
>>
>> > You can never have enough info. If she makes
>> > a decision based on the limited info
>> > presented here, I will guarantee it will be
>> > an ill- informed decision.
>>
>> > Bob
>>
>> > On Oct 30, 11:56 am, "Paul E. Lehmann"
>> > > wrote:
>>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >> If you want to drink bad smelling
>> > > >> "wine", be my
>> > > >> guest. If you want to risk
>> > > >> contaminating other
>> > > >> things in your winery, go ahead. I am
>> > > >> not the wine police I am merely making
>> > > >> suggestions.
>>
>> > > > I'm making suggestions myself based on my
>> > > > observations and experiences combined
>> > > > with info given to me by a good
>> > > > winemaker. I'm not suggesting drinking
>> > > > bad stuff, I'm suggesting a method to fix
>> > > > it.
>>
>> > > > "Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill
>> > > > no. Of
>> > > >> course, to the best of my knowledge, I
>> > > >> have never drunk a low alcohol beverage
>> > > >> that had green mold
>> > > >> growing on it. To each his own. Happy
>> > > >> wine - errr - beverage making "
>>
>> > > > I haven't even heard of anyone getting
>> > > > sick. Like I said, I'm suggesting ways to
>> > > > fix it not ways to drink it.
>>
>> > > I think Cathy has enough information to
>> > > make her decision.
>>
>> > > > "On Oct 26, 11:54 am, "Paul E. Lehmann"
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > >> wrote:
>> > > >> > The two Paul's in this thread would
>> > > >> > make good Republican Presidential
>> > > >> > candidates.
>>
>> > > >> I would have to change my party
>> > > >> affiliation before I did that
>>
>> > > >> > Instilling IRRATIONAL FEAR into
>> > > >> > anyone who ever came across mold or a
>> > > >> > bad smelling wine.
>>
>> > > >> If you want to drink bad smelling
>> > > >> "wine", be my
>> > > >> guest. If you want to risk
>> > > >> contaminating other
>> > > >> things in your winery, go ahead. I am
>> > > >> not the wine police I am merely making
>> > > >> suggestions.
>>
>> > > >> > On the contrary, there are no
>> > > >> > known pathogens that exist in wine.
>>
>> > > >> I don't believe the "cider" had enough
>> > > >> sugar to
>> > > >> make "wine". The words we
>>
>> > > >> .."temp was bad and we had green mold on
>> > > >> top of the cider (just apple juice let
>> > > >> to ferment by itself, no yeast or other
>> > > >> additives)."
>>
>> > > >> > It's the
>> > > >> > reason the Board of Health exempts
>> > > >> > wineries from reqiurements of section
>> > > >> > 20C. Has anyone on this board heard of
>> > > >> > anyone getting sick from bad wine?
>> > > >> > Anyone?
>>
>> > > >> Sick, yes, deadly - life threatening ill
>> > > >> no. Of course, to the best of my
>> > > >> knowledge, I have never drunk a low
>> > > >> alcohol beverage that had green mold
>> > > >> growing on it. To each his own. Happy
>> > > >> wine - errr - beverage making
>>
>> > > >> > Frederick mentioned the push down
>> > > >> > of the cap. Both Pauls have pushed
>> > > >> > those "toxins" down into the wine
>> > > >> > hundreds of times and didn't even know
>> > > >> > it. Those toxins are always there.
>> > > >> > Even SO2 doesn't kill them. SO2 puts
>> > > >> > them in suspended animation until the
>> > > >> > SO2 levels drop. Bleach would kill
>> > > >> > them but then there really would be
>> > > >> > "toxins" in the wine. How many
>> > > >> > "toxins" have people drunk in this
>> > > >> > world when the SO2 levels of the wine
>> > > >> > they are drinking become low?? Just
>> > > >> > because you can't see them doesn't
>> > > >> > mean they are not there and it's
>> > > >> > ironic that the cap keeps getting
>> > > >> > pushed into the fermenting must to
>> > > >> > kill them. Maybe the fermentation does
>> > > >> > do something. Imagine that.
>>
>> > > >> > Bob
>>
>> > > >> > On Oct 25, 8:57 pm, Paul Arthur
>> > > >> > > wrote:
>> > > >> >> On 2007-10-25, Cathy Boer
>> > > >> >> > wrote:
>>
>> > > >> >> > After reading the comments about
>> > > >> >> > mold in primary fermentation stage;
>> > > >> >> > we started 4 gallons of apple cider
>> > > >> >> > but the temp was bad and we had
>> > > >> >> > green mold on top of the cider
>> > > >> >> > (just apple juice let to ferment by
>> > > >> >> > itself, no yeast or other
>> > > >> >> > additives).
>>
>> > > >> >> > We ended up throwing it down the
>> > > >> >> > drain, but could we have saved the
>> > > >> >> > juice by adding yeast???
>>
>> > > >> >> > Any comments/help would be
>> > > >> >> > appreciated. We're new at all this
>> > > >> >> > stuff!
>>
>> > > >> >> It depends on how advanced the mold
>> > > >> >> is. If you catch it fairly quickly
>> > > >> >> and it's only on top, you can rack
>> > > >> >> the must out from under the mold
>> > > >> >> (leaving behind a couple of inches to
>> > > >> >> make sure you don't carry the mold
>> > > >> >> into the new fermenter) and pitch
>> > > >> >> yeast. If it's been growing for a
>> > > >> >> while toss it, as the mold produces
>> > > >> >> toxins that will have spread
>> > > >> >> throughout the must and cannot be
>> > > >> >> easily removed.
>>
>> > > >> >> --
>> > > >> >> I just forgot my whole philosophy of
>> > > >> >> life!!!

Hello. I am laughing at your style. And you have reassured me some what, re my own apple juice. I made a press, used only untreated apples, cut and pressed the juice. I have currently 11 litres in clear plastic bottles. The juice was brown and so refreshing. I covered the lids with a piece of muslin, to prevent fruit fly. It's been eight days now and I have foam on top and sediment on the bottom. One of the bottles has green/blue mould on it. Now I have eaten mould on fruits before, with no ill effect. I will be getting glass demijohns tomorrow. Should I avoid the foam and mould in the racking process and the sediment a the bottom of bottles. Or should I stirr it up first. Or skim of blue/green mould. There is nothing but apple juice in bottles, ie no additives or chemicals. I am trying to make organic cider. Any advice on the next step would be welcomed. Thank you.