So my local supplier is out of the dry ML bacteria. This means that my
other local option is to by the liquid stuff at a rate of $8.50 per 5
gallons of wine. I have 130 gallons, so this is not economical. I
have some questions for the group:
1) Is there a supplier on the east coast (new England preferably) that
I can get the dry drom and have it shipped? I think some types need
to be frozen - so that is expensive to ship.
2) Are there any types that don't have to be frozen or cold during
transport?
3) Can I buy some of the expensive stuff locally and get by with less,
or grow more from it?
4) Any other ideas?

Thanks

wrote:

> So my local supplier is out of the dry ML
> bacteria. This means that my other local option
> is to by the liquid stuff at a rate of $8.50 per
> 5
> gallons of wine. I have 130 gallons, so this is
> not economical. I have some questions for the
> group: 1) Is there a supplier on the east coast
> (new England preferably) that
> I can get the dry drom and have it shipped? I
> think some types need to be frozen - so that is
> expensive to ship. 2) Are there any types that
> don't have to be frozen or cold during
> transport? 3) Can I buy some of the expensive
> stuff locally and get by with less, or grow more
> from it? 4) Any other ideas?
>
> Thanks

Call Presque Isle (814) 725-1314

They will ship you some UPS Muy Pronto.

They are in East West Pennsylvania (the actual
name of the town) - near the New York State Line.
They are very good people to deal with.

I called them this week and had mine the next day.
They have a dry variety that is about $14 and will
do 65 gallons. The nutrient is also very
inexpensive - about $5

wrote:
> So my local supplier is out of the dry ML bacteria. This means that my
> other local option is to by the liquid stuff at a rate of $8.50 per 5
> gallons of wine. I have 130 gallons, so this is not economical. I
> have some questions for the group:
> 1) Is there a supplier on the east coast (new England preferably) that
> I can get the dry drom and have it shipped? I think some types need
> to be frozen - so that is expensive to ship.
> 2) Are there any types that don't have to be frozen or cold during
> transport?
> 3) Can I buy some of the expensive stuff locally and get by with less,
> or grow more from it?
> 4) Any other ideas?
>
> Thanks
>

Hmmmmmmmm.... I haven't tried this approach; would this scale-up process
expand the ML bacteria population enough to work?...
How about buying one of the 5gal doses, put 5 gallons of your wine into
a carboy [make the ML culture most happy with wine at SO2 less than
20ppm, adjust pH to 3.6-3.9 with calcium carbonate, adjust temperature
to 72F-77F], add the liquid ML culture, install the airlock, wait a few
days, then add that 5 gallon culture back to the remaining 125 gallons.


Or you could culture the ML bacteria like some commercial wineries do,
if you have access to a small amount more grapes.
The one I have adapted, below, is based on the Scott Laboratories
standard build-up procedu
http://www.scottlaboratories.com/pro...rdBuild-Up.pdf

[Note, most wineries buy quick-build up ML yeast and use a different
procedu
http://www.scottlaboratories.com/pro...ckBuild-Up.pdf
]

You buy one dose of the liquid ML culture (125ml for 5 gallon dose).
Mix 1 quart of grape must (72F-77F, pH 3.6-3.9, SO2 less than 20ppm) and
1 quart of chlorine-free water (72F-77F). Add a little ML-friendly
yeast (D254 and RC212 are good candidates). Add your liquid ML culture
and wait three days.
Put this into a 2 gallon carboy, add 2 quarts of your wine (warmed to
72F-77F) and install airlock.
Repeat adding 2 quarts of your wine each day for two more days. You are
doing this to acclimate the expanding ML culture to the alcohol.
You now have 2 gallons of ML culture.
Wait 3-4 days, then pour this into your wine. If you wait too long, the
ML bacteria will starve, having eaten up most of the malic acid. You
can keep the culture alive by adding a couple of quarts of wine per day
until you are ready to use it, up to about a week. After that, the
volatile acids may become too high.

If I'm not mistaken, this should be enough active ML bacteria now to
inoculate your 130 gallons of wine.

Gene

----------------------------------------------

From the Wyeast web site:
http://www.wyeastlab.com/com_w_startercultures.cfm

Making a Starter Culture

Liquid yeast cultures can be expanded to inoculate larger volumes of
must. A small volume of liquid culture from Wyeast Laboratories can be
added to a small volume of must and allowed to ferment for 24 to 72
hours. This must can then be used to inoculate a larger volume of must.

Procedu

1. To create a starter culture one must first determine the final
volume of must that will be inoculated. The initial inoculum should be
0.5% of the total volume of the starter. For example: 1 liter of liquid
yeast from Wyeast would inoculate 200 liters of must. This will result
in a cell count of about 6.0 x 106 cells per ml.
2. Determine a propagation schedule to achieve the desired final
volume. Subsequent increases in volume should be in the range of 10 to
20 fold. For example: 1 liter of liquid yeast from Wyeast inoculates 200
liters of must, incubates for 72 hours, and then in turn inoculates 2000
liters of must.
3. Create initial starter culture. Incubate for 24 to 72 hours at
65° to 75°F (18° to 24°C).
4. Inoculate next or final volume of must. Incubate for 24 to 72
hours at 65° to 75°F (18° to 24°C) if increasing in volume again or set
to desired fermentation temperature if at final volume.
5. Aeration or oxygenation of the starter is essential for the
production of healthy yeast. Oxygen is used by the yeast to produce
sterols which are necessary for yeast growth. Oxygenation of must
increases the final cell density and improves the long term health of
the yeast culture.



It is important to understand that creating a starter can increase the
risk of infection by undesirable organisms. If non-sterile must is used,
then there are other organisms present that could multiply to
unacceptable levels. Use of either heat sterilized or sterile filtered
must or juice is recommended. Use of a broad spectrum yeast nutrient is
recommended for best results.

Wouldn't it just be easier to just use D254 or RC212 and don't add any
sulfites at the end of fermentation? MLF should be still going in the
fermentation. You don't need MLF bacteria. I've never used it and MLF
has never been a problem.

Bob

On Sep 26, 5:19 pm, gene > wrote:
> wrote:
> > So my local supplier is out of the dry ML bacteria. This means that my
> > other local option is to by the liquid stuff at a rate of $8.50 per 5
> > gallons of wine. I have 130 gallons, so this is not economical. I
> > have some questions for the group:
> > 1) Is there a supplier on the east coast (new England preferably) that
> > I can get the dry drom and have it shipped? I think some types need
> > to be frozen - so that is expensive to ship.
> > 2) Are there any types that don't have to be frozen or cold during
> > transport?
> > 3) Can I buy some of the expensive stuff locally and get by with less,
> > or grow more from it?
> > 4) Any other ideas?
>
> > Thanks
>
> Hmmmmmmmm.... I haven't tried this approach; would this scale-up process
> expand the ML bacteria population enough to work?...
> How about buying one of the 5gal doses, put 5 gallons of your wine into
> a carboy [make the ML culture most happy with wine at SO2 less than
> 20ppm, adjust pH to 3.6-3.9 with calcium carbonate, adjust temperature
> to 72F-77F], add the liquid ML culture, install the airlock, wait a few
> days, then add that 5 gallon culture back to the remaining 125 gallons.
>
> Or you could culture the ML bacteria like some commercial wineries do,
> if you have access to a small amount more grapes.
> The one I have adapted, below, is based on the Scott Laboratories
> standard build-up proceduhttp://www.scottlaboratories.com/pro...documents/Malo...
>
> [Note, most wineries buy quick-build up ML yeast and use a different
> proceduhttp://www.scottlaboratories.com/pro...documents/Malo...
> ]
>
> You buy one dose of the liquid ML culture (125ml for 5 gallon dose).
> Mix 1 quart of grape must (72F-77F, pH 3.6-3.9, SO2 less than 20ppm) and
> 1 quart of chlorine-free water (72F-77F). Add a little ML-friendly
> yeast (D254 and RC212 are good candidates). Add your liquid ML culture
> and wait three days.
> Put this into a 2 gallon carboy, add 2 quarts of your wine (warmed to
> 72F-77F) and install airlock.
> Repeat adding 2 quarts of your wine each day for two more days. You are
> doing this to acclimate the expanding ML culture to the alcohol.
> You now have 2 gallons of ML culture.
> Wait 3-4 days, then pour this into your wine. If you wait too long, the
> ML bacteria will starve, having eaten up most of the malic acid. You
> can keep the culture alive by adding a couple of quarts of wine per day
> until you are ready to use it, up to about a week. After that, the
> volatile acids may become too high.
>
> If I'm not mistaken, this should be enough active ML bacteria now to
> inoculate your 130 gallons of wine.
>
> Gene
>
> ----------------------------------------------
>
> From the Wyeast web site:http://www.wyeastlab.com/com_w_startercultures.cfm
>
> Making a Starter Culture
>
> Liquid yeast cultures can be expanded to inoculate larger volumes of
> must. A small volume of liquid culture from Wyeast Laboratories can be
> added to a small volume of must and allowed to ferment for 24 to 72
> hours. This must can then be used to inoculate a larger volume of must.
>
> Procedu
>
> 1. To create a starter culture one must first determine the final
> volume of must that will be inoculated. The initial inoculum should be
> 0.5% of the total volume of the starter. For example: 1 liter of liquid
> yeast from Wyeast would inoculate 200 liters of must. This will result
> in a cell count of about 6.0 x 106 cells per ml.
> 2. Determine a propagation schedule to achieve the desired final
> volume. Subsequent increases in volume should be in the range of 10 to
> 20 fold. For example: 1 liter of liquid yeast from Wyeast inoculates 200
> liters of must, incubates for 72 hours, and then in turn inoculates 2000
> liters of must.
> 3. Create initial starter culture. Incubate for 24 to 72 hours at
> 65° to 75°F (18° to 24°C).
> 4. Inoculate next or final volume of must. Incubate for 24 to 72
> hours at 65° to 75°F (18° to 24°C) if increasing in volume again or set
> to desired fermentation temperature if at final volume.
> 5. Aeration or oxygenation of the starter is essential for the
> production of healthy yeast. Oxygen is used by the yeast to produce
> sterols which are necessary for yeast growth. Oxygenation of must
> increases the final cell density and improves the long term health of
> the yeast culture.
>
> It is important to understand that creating a starter can increase the
> risk of infection by undesirable organisms. If non-sterile must is used,
> then there are other organisms present that could multiply to
> unacceptable levels. Use of either heat sterilized or sterile filtered
> must or juice is recommended. Use of a broad spectrum yeast nutrient is
> recommended for best results.

wrote:

> Wouldn't it just be easier to just use D254 or
> RC212 and don't add any sulfites at the end of
> fermentation? MLF should be still going in the
> fermentation. You don't need MLF bacteria. I've
> never used it and MLF has never been a problem.
>
> Bob

As I understand it, there are different strains of
ML just as there are different strains of yeast.

Some of the "natural" strains can produce off
odors and tastes. Of course, there are those who
use the Natural yeast on the grapes also and do
not use a cultured wine yeast.

IMHO, it is best to innoculate with something
proven to be desirable rather than risk it. You
are correct, though, that more than likely given
enough time there will be a "natural" ML take
place. The result, however may not be to your
liking.

The price of the culture from the source I
mentioned is not all that expensive.


>
> On Sep 26, 5:19 pm, gene >
> wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > So my local supplier is out of the dry ML
>> > bacteria. This means that my other local
>> > option is to by the liquid stuff at a rate of
>> > $8.50 per 5
>> > gallons of wine. I have 130 gallons, so this
>> > is not economical. I have some questions for
>> > the group: 1) Is there a supplier on the east
>> > coast (new England preferably) that
>> > I can get the dry drom and have it shipped?
>> > I think some types need to be frozen - so
>> > that is expensive to ship. 2) Are there any
>> > types that don't have to be frozen or cold
>> > during transport? 3) Can I buy some of the
>> > expensive stuff locally and get by with less,
>> > or grow more from it? 4) Any other ideas?
>>
>> > Thanks
>>
>> Hmmmmmmmm.... I haven't tried this approach;
>> would this scale-up process expand the ML
>> bacteria population enough to work?... How
>> about buying one of the 5gal doses, put 5
>> gallons of your wine into a carboy [make the ML
>> culture most happy with wine at SO2 less than
>> 20ppm, adjust pH to 3.6-3.9 with calcium
>> carbonate, adjust temperature to 72F-77F], add
>> the liquid ML culture, install the airlock,
>> wait a few days, then add that 5 gallon culture
>> back to the remaining 125 gallons.
>>
>> Or you could culture the ML bacteria like some
>> commercial wineries do, if you have access to a
>> small amount more grapes. The one I have
>> adapted, below, is based on the Scott
>> Laboratories standard build-up
>>
proceduhttp://www.scottlaboratories.com/pro...documents/Malo...
>>
>> [Note, most wineries buy quick-build up ML
>> [yeast and use a different
>>
proceduhttp://www.scottlaboratories.com/pro...documents/Malo...
>> ]
>>
>> You buy one dose of the liquid ML culture
>> (125ml for 5 gallon dose). Mix 1 quart of grape
>> must (72F-77F, pH 3.6-3.9, SO2 less than 20ppm)
>> and
>> 1 quart of chlorine-free water (72F-77F). Add
>> a little ML-friendly yeast (D254 and RC212 are
>> good candidates). Add your liquid ML culture
>> and wait three days. Put this into a 2 gallon
>> carboy, add 2 quarts of your wine (warmed to
>> 72F-77F) and install airlock.
>> Repeat adding 2 quarts of your wine each day
>> for two more days. You are doing this to
>> acclimate the expanding ML culture to the
>> alcohol. You now have 2 gallons of ML culture.
>> Wait 3-4 days, then pour this into your wine.
>> If you wait too long, the
>> ML bacteria will starve, having eaten up most
>> of the malic acid. You can keep the culture
>> alive by adding a couple of quarts of wine per
>> day
>> until you are ready to use it, up to about a
>> week. After that, the volatile acids may
>> become too high.
>>
>> If I'm not mistaken, this should be enough
>> active ML bacteria now to inoculate your 130
>> gallons of wine.
>>
>> Gene
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------
>>
>> From the Wyeast web
>>
site:http://www.wyeastlab.com/com_w_startercultures.cfm
>>
>> Making a Starter Culture
>>
>> Liquid yeast cultures can be expanded to
>> inoculate larger volumes of must. A small
>> volume of liquid culture from Wyeast
>> Laboratories can be added to a small volume of
>> must and allowed to ferment for 24 to 72 hours.
>> This must can then be used to inoculate a
>> larger volume of must.
>>
>> Procedu
>>
>> 1. To create a starter culture one must
>> first determine the final
>> volume of must that will be inoculated. The
>> initial inoculum should be 0.5% of the total
>> volume of the starter. For example: 1 liter of
>> liquid yeast from Wyeast would inoculate 200
>> liters of must. This will result in a cell
>> count of about 6.0 x 106 cells per ml.
>> 2. Determine a propagation schedule to
>> achieve the desired final
>> volume. Subsequent increases in volume should
>> be in the range of 10 to 20 fold. For example:
>> 1 liter of liquid yeast from Wyeast inoculates
>> 200 liters of must, incubates for 72 hours, and
>> then in turn inoculates 2000 liters of must.
>> 3. Create initial starter culture. Incubate
>> for 24 to 72 hours at
>> 65° to 75°F (18° to 24°C).
>> 4. Inoculate next or final volume of must.
>> Incubate for 24 to 72
>> hours at 65° to 75°F (18° to 24°C) if
>> increasing in volume again or set to desired
>> fermentation temperature if at final volume.
>> 5. Aeration or oxygenation of the starter
>> is essential for the
>> production of healthy yeast. Oxygen is used by
>> the yeast to produce sterols which are
>> necessary for yeast growth. Oxygenation of must
>> increases the final cell density and improves
>> the long term health of the yeast culture.
>>
>> It is important to understand that creating a
>> starter can increase the risk of infection by
>> undesirable organisms. If non-sterile must is
>> used, then there are other organisms present
>> that could multiply to unacceptable levels. Use
>> of either heat sterilized or sterile filtered
>> must or juice is recommended. Use of a broad
>> spectrum yeast nutrient is recommended for best
>> results.

Awesome. I called presque and they are sending some out on monday so
I wont have to worry about it sitting in a truck over a sunday. I
have most of the must in extended maceration right now. I am at 1
week post ferment and it hhas been warm, so the must is about 80. By
the time the ml culture gets here it will be in the 70s. I'll give it
a cople days on the must then press.
Thanks alot for the great suggestions.

Marc

Paul,

That's fair. I haven't had any problems with natural MLF. Maybe
because I keep the fermentation environment condusive to clean
fermentations. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of buying the MLF
bacteria, just saying it's not absolutely necessary in case he didn't
know.

Bob



On Sep 26, 9:46 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > Wouldn't it just be easier to just use D254 or
> > RC212 and don't add any sulfites at the end of
> > fermentation? MLF should be still going in the
> > fermentation. You don't need MLF bacteria. I've
> > never used it and MLF has never been a problem.
>
> > Bob
>
> As I understand it, there are different strains of
> ML just as there are different strains of yeast.
>
> Some of the "natural" strains can produce off
> odors and tastes. Of course, there are those who
> use the Natural yeast on the grapes also and do
> not use a cultured wine yeast.
>
> IMHO, it is best to innoculate with something
> proven to be desirable rather than risk it. You
> are correct, though, that more than likely given
> enough time there will be a "natural" ML take
> place. The result, however may not be to your
> liking.
>
> The price of the culture from the source I
> mentioned is not all that expensive.
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 26, 5:19 pm, gene >
> > wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >> > So my local supplier is out of the dry ML
> >> > bacteria. This means that my other local
> >> > option is to by the liquid stuff at a rate of
> >> > $8.50 per 5
> >> > gallons of wine. I have 130 gallons, so this
> >> > is not economical. I have some questions for
> >> > the group: 1) Is there a supplier on the east
> >> > coast (new England preferably) that
> >> > I can get the dry drom and have it shipped?
> >> > I think some types need to be frozen - so
> >> > that is expensive to ship. 2) Are there any
> >> > types that don't have to be frozen or cold
> >> > during transport? 3) Can I buy some of the
> >> > expensive stuff locally and get by with less,
> >> > or grow more from it? 4) Any other ideas?
>
> >> > Thanks
>
> >> Hmmmmmmmm.... I haven't tried this approach;
> >> would this scale-up process expand the ML
> >> bacteria population enough to work?... How
> >> about buying one of the 5gal doses, put 5
> >> gallons of your wine into a carboy [make the ML
> >> culture most happy with wine at SO2 less than
> >> 20ppm, adjust pH to 3.6-3.9 with calcium
> >> carbonate, adjust temperature to 72F-77F], add
> >> the liquid ML culture, install the airlock,
> >> wait a few days, then add that 5 gallon culture
> >> back to the remaining 125 gallons.
>
> >> Or you could culture the ML bacteria like some
> >> commercial wineries do, if you have access to a
> >> small amount more grapes. The one I have
> >> adapted, below, is based on the Scott
> >> Laboratories standard build-up
>
> proceduhttp://www.scottlaboratories.com/pro...documents/Malo...
>
> >> [Note, most wineries buy quick-build up ML
> >> [yeast and use a different
>
> proceduhttp://www.scottlaboratories.com/pro...documents/Malo...
>
> >> ]
>
> >> You buy one dose of the liquid ML culture
> >> (125ml for 5 gallon dose). Mix 1 quart of grape
> >> must (72F-77F, pH 3.6-3.9, SO2 less than 20ppm)
> >> and
> >> 1 quart of chlorine-free water (72F-77F). Add
> >> a little ML-friendly yeast (D254 and RC212 are
> >> good candidates). Add your liquid ML culture
> >> and wait three days. Put this into a 2 gallon
> >> carboy, add 2 quarts of your wine (warmed to
> >> 72F-77F) and install airlock.
> >> Repeat adding 2 quarts of your wine each day
> >> for two more days. You are doing this to
> >> acclimate the expanding ML culture to the
> >> alcohol. You now have 2 gallons of ML culture.
> >> Wait 3-4 days, then pour this into your wine.
> >> If you wait too long, the
> >> ML bacteria will starve, having eaten up most
> >> of the malic acid. You can keep the culture
> >> alive by adding a couple of quarts of wine per
> >> day
> >> until you are ready to use it, up to about a
> >> week. After that, the volatile acids may
> >> become too high.
>
> >> If I'm not mistaken, this should be enough
> >> active ML bacteria now to inoculate your 130
> >> gallons of wine.
>
> >> Gene
>
> >> ----------------------------------------------
>
> >> From the Wyeast web
>
> site:http://www.wyeastlab.com/com_w_startercultures.cfm
>
>
>
> >> Making a Starter Culture
>
> >> Liquid yeast cultures can be expanded to
> >> inoculate larger volumes of must. A small
> >> volume of liquid culture from Wyeast
> >> Laboratories can be added to a small volume of
> >> must and allowed to ferment for 24 to 72 hours.
> >> This must can then be used to inoculate a
> >> larger volume of must.
>
> >> Procedu
>
> >> 1. To create a starter culture one must
> >> first determine the final
> >> volume of must that will be inoculated. The
> >> initial inoculum should be 0.5% of the total
> >> volume of the starter. For example: 1 liter of
> >> liquid yeast from Wyeast would inoculate 200
> >> liters of must. This will result in a cell
> >> count of about 6.0 x 106 cells per ml.
> >> 2. Determine a propagation schedule to
> >> achieve the desired final
> >> volume. Subsequent increases in volume should
> >> be in the range of 10 to 20 fold. For example:
> >> 1 liter of liquid yeast from Wyeast inoculates
> >> 200 liters of must, incubates for 72 hours, and
> >> then in turn inoculates 2000 liters of must.
> >> 3. Create initial starter culture. Incubate
> >> for 24 to 72 hours at
> >> 65° to 75°F (18° to 24°C).
> >> 4. Inoculate next or final volume of must.
> >> Incubate for 24 to 72
> >> hours at 65° to 75°F (18° to 24°C) if
> >> increasing in volume again or set to desired
> >> fermentation temperature if at final volume.
> >> 5. Aeration or oxygenation of the starter
> >> is essential for the
> >> production of healthy yeast. Oxygen is used by
> >> the yeast to produce sterols which are
> >> necessary for yeast growth. Oxygenation of must
> >> increases the final cell density and improves
> >> the long term health of the yeast culture.
>
> >> It is important to understand that creating a
> >> starter can increase the risk of infection by
> >> undesirable organisms. If non-sterile must is
> >> used, then there are other organisms present
> >> that could multiply to unacceptable levels. Use
> >> of either heat sterilized or sterile filtered
> >> must or juice is recommended. Use of a broad
> >> spectrum yeast nutrient is recommended for best
> >> results.

wrote:

> Paul,
>
> That's fair. I haven't had any problems with
> natural MLF. Maybe
> because I keep the fermentation environment
> condusive to clean fermentations. I'm not trying
> to talk anyone out of buying the MLF bacteria,
> just saying it's not absolutely necessary in
> case he didn't know.
>
> Bob

One of the other problems I see is that the
"natural" ML is unpredictable as to when it might
occur. It may happen during the primary
fermentation or during the spring time and or
perhaps after you have bottled.

I say if it works for you or others, and you are
happy with the results, keep doing what works for
you.

I like to have a little more control over it since
like you said, it is likely to happen anyhow. I
like it to happen early so I can sulphite my wine
without worrying about getting the sulphite
levels to high to prevent or inhibit ML.

>
>
>
> On Sep 26, 9:46 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann"
> > wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > Wouldn't it just be easier to just use D254
>> > or RC212 and don't add any sulfites at the
>> > end of fermentation? MLF should be still
>> > going in the fermentation. You don't need MLF
>> > bacteria. I've never used it and MLF has
>> > never been a problem.
>>
>> > Bob
>>
>> As I understand it, there are different strains
>> of ML just as there are different strains of
>> yeast.
>>
>> Some of the "natural" strains can produce off
>> odors and tastes. Of course, there are those
>> who use the Natural yeast on the grapes also
>> and do not use a cultured wine yeast.
>>
>> IMHO, it is best to innoculate with something
>> proven to be desirable rather than risk it. You
>> are correct, though, that more than likely
>> given enough time there will be a "natural" ML
>> take
>> place. The result, however may not be to your
>> liking.
>>
>> The price of the culture from the source I
>> mentioned is not all that expensive.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 26, 5:19 pm, gene
>> > > wrote:
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > So my local supplier is out of the dry ML
>> >> > bacteria. This means that my other local
>> >> > option is to by the liquid stuff at a rate
>> >> > of $8.50 per 5
>> >> > gallons of wine. I have 130 gallons, so
>> >> > this
>> >> > is not economical. I have some questions
>> >> > for the group: 1) Is there a supplier on
>> >> > the east coast (new England preferably)
>> >> > that I can get the dry drom and have it
>> >> > shipped? I think some types need to be
>> >> > frozen - so that is expensive to ship. 2)
>> >> > Are there any types that don't have to be
>> >> > frozen or cold during transport? 3) Can I
>> >> > buy some of the expensive stuff locally
>> >> > and get by with less, or grow more from
>> >> > it? 4) Any other ideas?
>>
>> >> > Thanks
>>
>> >> Hmmmmmmmm.... I haven't tried this approach;
>> >> would this scale-up process expand the ML
>> >> bacteria population enough to work?... How
>> >> about buying one of the 5gal doses, put 5
>> >> gallons of your wine into a carboy [make the
>> >> ML culture most happy with wine at SO2 less
>> >> than 20ppm, adjust pH to 3.6-3.9 with
>> >> calcium carbonate, adjust temperature to
>> >> 72F-77F], add the liquid ML culture, install
>> >> the airlock, wait a few days, then add that
>> >> 5 gallon culture back to the remaining 125
>> >> gallons.
>>
>> >> Or you could culture the ML bacteria like
>> >> some commercial wineries do, if you have
>> >> access to a small amount more grapes. The
>> >> one I have adapted, below, is based on the
>> >> Scott Laboratories standard build-up
>>
>>
proceduhttp://www.scottlaboratories.com/pro...documents/Malo...
>>
>> >> [Note, most wineries buy quick-build up ML
>> >> [yeast and use a different
>>
>>
proceduhttp://www.scottlaboratories.com/pro...documents/Malo...
>>
>> >> ]
>>
>> >> You buy one dose of the liquid ML culture
>> >> (125ml for 5 gallon dose). Mix 1 quart of
>> >> grape must (72F-77F, pH 3.6-3.9, SO2 less
>> >> than 20ppm) and
>> >> 1 quart of chlorine-free water (72F-77F).
>> >> Add a little ML-friendly yeast (D254 and
>> >> RC212 are good candidates). Add your liquid
>> >> ML culture and wait three days. Put this
>> >> into a 2 gallon carboy, add 2 quarts of your
>> >> wine (warmed to 72F-77F) and install
>> >> airlock. Repeat adding 2 quarts of your wine
>> >> each day
>> >> for two more days. You are doing this to
>> >> acclimate the expanding ML culture to the
>> >> alcohol. You now have 2 gallons of ML
>> >> culture. Wait 3-4 days, then pour this into
>> >> your wine. If you wait too long, the
>> >> ML bacteria will starve, having eaten up
>> >> most
>> >> of the malic acid. You can keep the culture
>> >> alive by adding a couple of quarts of wine
>> >> per day
>> >> until you are ready to use it, up to about a
>> >> week. After that, the volatile acids may
>> >> become too high.
>>
>> >> If I'm not mistaken, this should be enough
>> >> active ML bacteria now to inoculate your 130
>> >> gallons of wine.
>>
>> >> Gene
>>
>> >>
----------------------------------------------
>>
>> >> From the Wyeast web
>>
>>
site:http://www.wyeastlab.com/com_w_startercultures.cfm
>>
>>
>>
>> >> Making a Starter Culture
>>
>> >> Liquid yeast cultures can be expanded to
>> >> inoculate larger volumes of must. A small
>> >> volume of liquid culture from Wyeast
>> >> Laboratories can be added to a small volume
>> >> of must and allowed to ferment for 24 to 72
>> >> hours. This must can then be used to
>> >> inoculate a larger volume of must.
>>
>> >> Procedu
>>
>> >> 1. To create a starter culture one must
>> >> first determine the final
>> >> volume of must that will be inoculated. The
>> >> initial inoculum should be 0.5% of the total
>> >> volume of the starter. For example: 1 liter
>> >> of liquid yeast from Wyeast would inoculate
>> >> 200 liters of must. This will result in a
>> >> cell count of about 6.0 x 106 cells per ml.
>> >> 2. Determine a propagation schedule to
>> >> achieve the desired final
>> >> volume. Subsequent increases in volume
>> >> should be in the range of 10 to 20 fold. For
>> >> example: 1 liter of liquid yeast from Wyeast
>> >> inoculates 200 liters of must, incubates for
>> >> 72 hours, and then in turn inoculates 2000
>> >> liters of must.
>> >> 3. Create initial starter culture.
>> >> Incubate for 24 to 72 hours at
>> >> 65° to 75°F (18° to 24°C).
>> >> 4. Inoculate next or final volume of
>> >> must. Incubate for 24 to 72
>> >> hours at 65° to 75°F (18° to 24°C) if
>> >> increasing in volume again or set to desired
>> >> fermentation temperature if at final volume.
>> >> 5. Aeration or oxygenation of the
>> >> starter is essential for the
>> >> production of healthy yeast. Oxygen is used
>> >> by the yeast to produce sterols which are
>> >> necessary for yeast growth. Oxygenation of
>> >> must increases the final cell density and
>> >> improves the long term health of the yeast
>> >> culture.
>>
>> >> It is important to understand that creating
>> >> a starter can increase the risk of infection
>> >> by undesirable organisms. If non-sterile
>> >> must is used, then there are other organisms
>> >> present that could multiply to unacceptable
>> >> levels. Use of either heat sterilized or
>> >> sterile filtered must or juice is
>> >> recommended. Use of a broad spectrum yeast
>> >> nutrient is recommended for best results.

On Sep 26, 3:48 pm, wrote:
> So my local supplier is out of the dry ML bacteria. This means that my
> other local option is to by the liquid stuff at a rate of $8.50 per 5
> gallons of wine. I have 130 gallons, so this is not economical. I
> have some questions for the group:
> 1) Is there a supplier on the east coast (new England preferably) that
> I can get the dry drom and have it shipped? I think some types need
> to be frozen - so that is expensive to ship.
> 2) Are there any types that don't have to be frozen or cold during
> transport?
> 3) Can I buy some of the expensive stuff locally and get by with less,
> or grow more from it?
> 4) Any other ideas?
>
> Thanks

Call my supplier. I don't know if they ship but they have ML freeze
dried cultures.
Ed Marchetti
AFTEK, Inc.
740 Driving Park Ave.
Rochester, NY 14613
Phone: (585)458-7550
Fax: (585)458-7476

This man has been VERY good to me- they supply many of the wineries in
the Fingerlakes region in NY. If push comes to shove I can drop a
frozen packet of ML culture in an envelope and get it off to you- I
bought from last year in anticipation of this year (lower price & I'd
gotten burned with not being able to get cultures in time....)

Let me know how Ed works out-

Jason

wrote:

> So my local supplier is out of the dry ML bacteria. This means that my
> other local option is to by the liquid stuff at a rate of $8.50 per 5
> gallons of wine. I have 130 gallons, so this is not economical. I
> have some questions for the group:
> 1) Is there a supplier on the east coast (new England preferably) that
> I can get the dry drom and have it shipped? I think some types need
> to be frozen - so that is expensive to ship.
> 2) Are there any types that don't have to be frozen or cold during
> transport?
> 3) Can I buy some of the expensive stuff locally and get by with less,
> or grow more from it?
> 4) Any other ideas?
>
> Thanks
>
1. Use Vinflora Oenos, this stuff works, and the preparation is easy.
Just open the packet and sprinkle in.

2. Get a vessel going well at say 78degrees F.

3.Spread this wine around at a rate of 2 percent innoculum into other
tanks, once it is going.

4. Once the vessel is through malo, rack off the lees. Spread the lees
around to tanks which are not through malolactic. Add sulphur dioxide to
the vessel that you rack into.


Presque Isle are a good supplier. The other is Gusmer Cellulo.