Storing
 

We bought some wine from Bob The Wine Guy
(http://www.cascadecliffs.com/). It's going to be better a
couple of years from now, not that there's much wrong with it
right now.

I had an idea of taking an old refrigerator, modifying the
insides to hold wine bottles, and setting it to the highest
temperature it would run. We bounced this idea off of Bob The
Wine Guy, and he expressed a concern about the vibration of the
compressor messing up the wine.

So could one insulate the bottles from the vibration using
something like water balloons or fiberglass insulation? Is the
vibration really that much of an issue?

--

Life is too short to play cheap guitars.

Storing
 

On Tue, 15 May 2007 03:28:23 +0000, against all advice, something
compelled Paul Arthur >, to say:

> On 2007-05-15, Steve Daniels > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > We bought some wine from Bob The Wine Guy
> > (http://www.cascadecliffs.com/). It's going to be better a
> > couple of years from now, not that there's much wrong with it
> > right now.
> >
> > I had an idea of taking an old refrigerator, modifying the
> > insides to hold wine bottles, and setting it to the highest
> > temperature it would run. We bounced this idea off of Bob The
> > Wine Guy, and he expressed a concern about the vibration of the
> > compressor messing up the wine.
> >
> > So could one insulate the bottles from the vibration using
> > something like water balloons or fiberglass insulation? Is the
> > vibration really that much of an issue?
>
> This is an example of received wisdom. Most people saying that this
> might be an issue have no personal experience, but are merely repeating
> something that they once heard someone express as a possible concern.
> And that person heard it from someone else, et cetera.

Well, he's the guy that made the wine, not Just Some Guy. But I
don't notice my 'fridge shaking all that much when its running.

> Unless you have an extremely aggressive compressor, I wouldn't worry
> about vibration; I'd be more worried about uneven cooling or overly
> large temperature fluctuations, as they're much more likely to actually
> affect the wine.

So, a fan in the box to keep the temp even? The whole 'fridge
idea was predicated upon keeping the temperature even, no matter
what the house did.

--

Life is too short to play cheap guitars.

Storing
 

The standard answer for wine storage is cool, dark, humid, vibration
free. I guess different fridges vibrate differently. It's your wine
& your choice. Observe closely when turning on & off, not when just
when running.

I have never seen one of the proper wine fridges when it is operating.
Wonder how much vibration there is there. After all, there's gotta be
a motor of some sort, doesn't there.

Steve

Storing
 

On May 14, 8:04 pm, Steve Daniels > wrote:
> ...
> So could one insulate the bottles from the vibration using
> something like water balloons or fiberglass insulation? Is the
> vibration really that much of an issue?

If you keep it full you won't have much vibration. The weight of the
wine bottles will subdue most of the vibration from the compressor.

I store wine and mead in an unmodified refrigerator in the garage.
With just a few bottles in it, you can feel vibration from the
compressor, but when it's full, it's completely still. I think the
concern about vibration is a bit overblown anyhow.

Set to the highest possible temperature, my refrigerator tends to stay
at a constant 60 degrees Fahrenheit.

Greg

Storing
 

On 14 May 2007 22:00:18 -0700, against all advice, something
compelled , to say:

> On May 14, 8:04 pm, Steve Daniels > wrote:
> > ...
> > So could one insulate the bottles from the vibration using
> > something like water balloons or fiberglass insulation? Is the
> > vibration really that much of an issue?
>
> If you keep it full you won't have much vibration. The weight of the
> wine bottles will subdue most of the vibration from the compressor.

I'll have to buy more wine? Damm the bad luck.

>
> Set to the highest possible temperature, my refrigerator tends to stay
> at a constant 60 degrees Fahrenheit.

That's what I was thinking.
--

Life is too short to play cheap guitars.

Storing
 

On May 15, 1:10 am, Steve Daniels > wrote:
> On 14 May 2007 22:00:18 -0700, against all advice, something
> compelled , to say:
>
> > On May 14, 8:04 pm, Steve Daniels > wrote:
> > > ...
> > > So could one insulate the bottles from the vibration using
> > > something like water balloons or fiberglass insulation? Is the
> > > vibration really that much of an issue?
>
> > If you keep it full you won't have much vibration. The weight of the
> > wine bottles will subdue most of the vibration from the compressor.
>
> I'll have to buy more wine? Damm the bad luck.
>
>
>
> > Set to the highest possible temperature, my refrigerator tends to stay
> > at a constant 60 degrees Fahrenheit.
>
> That's what I was thinking.
> --
>
> Life is too short to play cheap guitars.

Or you could fill up some gallon containers with water, all you need
is mass. I wouldn't be overly concerned about vibration either unless
you can feel shaking when touching it gently. You can usually feel
vibration best with your fingernails on edge.

The main issue is relative humidity if he used natural corks.
Refrigerators dry the air out by design; you may want to keep a damp
sponge in there too in they are natural corks. If synthetic, it's not
an issue.

If all you are storing is wine this won't be running a lot anyway
since the door will be closed more than not.

Joe

Storing
 

Steve,

Not a bad idea in itsefl but here are some issues to consider:

-If when the compressor is running you can feel the fridge vibrate
when putting your hands on it, it's vibrating too much to store wine
long term. If you can find a way to stop vibration (add mass, level
the fridge) then I don't think it much of an issue.

-12c is the ideal cellering temperature. Too hot and the wine will age
too quickly (or even cook if it's expose to temperature in the mid 20c
for long periods). Too cool and it won't age much at all, just lose
it's fruit over time without gaining much of anything else. If you're
fridge can keep a temperature between 10c and 15c, go for it. Else,
you're better off keeping it in a dark corner of your basement.

-75% humidity is perfect for corks. Below 50% is cause for concern.
adding a bucket of water to your fridge can go a long way in helping
your fridge keep humidity.

More then anything else, wine doesn't tolerate large fluctuation of
temperatures. It's better to keep wine in a less then ideal but stable
environment then subjecting it to frequent changes.

Have fun,

Stefan Mazur

On May 14, 11:04 pm, Steve Daniels > wrote:
> We bought some wine from Bob The Wine Guy
> (http://www.cascadecliffs.com/). It's going to be better a
> couple of years from now, not that there's much wrong with it
> right now.
>
> I had an idea of taking an old refrigerator, modifying the
> insides to hold wine bottles, and setting it to the highest
> temperature it would run. We bounced this idea off of Bob The
> Wine Guy, and he expressed a concern about the vibration of the
> compressor messing up the wine.
>
> So could one insulate the bottles from the vibration using
> something like water balloons or fiberglass insulation? Is the
> vibration really that much of an issue?
>
> --
>
> Life is too short to play cheap guitars.

Storing
 

Sorry to be such a ridiculous newb, I have tried not to ask but remain curious. I read that polymerisation occurs
between pigments, tannin etc as wine matures. Presumably vibration is thought to prevent this. Does polymerisation
build in smoothness and longevity - helping the chemicals to resist degredation or is there some other repercussion?
Why is vibration a problem in wine storage?

Jim

> wrote in message ps.com...
> Steve,
>
> Not a bad idea in itsefl but here are some issues to consider:
>
> -If when the compressor is running you can feel the fridge vibrate
> when putting your hands on it, it's vibrating too much to store wine
> long term. If you can find a way to stop vibration (add mass, level
> the fridge) then I don't think it much of an issue.
>
> -12c is the ideal cellering temperature. Too hot and the wine will age
> too quickly (or even cook if it's expose to temperature in the mid 20c
> for long periods). Too cool and it won't age much at all, just lose
> it's fruit over time without gaining much of anything else. If you're
> fridge can keep a temperature between 10c and 15c, go for it. Else,
> you're better off keeping it in a dark corner of your basement.
>
> -75% humidity is perfect for corks. Below 50% is cause for concern.
> adding a bucket of water to your fridge can go a long way in helping
> your fridge keep humidity.
>
> More then anything else, wine doesn't tolerate large fluctuation of
> temperatures. It's better to keep wine in a less then ideal but stable
> environment then subjecting it to frequent changes.
>
> Have fun,
>
> Stefan Mazur
>
> On May 14, 11:04 pm, Steve Daniels > wrote:
>> We bought some wine from Bob The Wine Guy
>> (http://www.cascadecliffs.com/). It's going to be better a
>> couple of years from now, not that there's much wrong with it
>> right now.
>>
>> I had an idea of taking an old refrigerator, modifying the
>> insides to hold wine bottles, and setting it to the highest
>> temperature it would run. We bounced this idea off of Bob The
>> Wine Guy, and he expressed a concern about the vibration of the
>> compressor messing up the wine.
>>
>> So could one insulate the bottles from the vibration using
>> something like water balloons or fiberglass insulation? Is the
>> vibration really that much of an issue?
>>
>> --
>>
>> Life is too short to play cheap guitars.
>
>

Storing
 

On May 15, 10:06 am, "jim" > wrote:
> Sorry to be such a ridiculous newb, I have tried not to ask but remain curious. I read that polymerisation occurs
> between pigments, tannin etc as wine matures. Presumably vibration is thought to prevent this. Does polymerisation
> build in smoothness and longevity - helping the chemicals to resist degredation or is there some other repercussion?
> Why is vibration a problem in wine storage?
>

Hi Jim. Your question is far from stupid. Vibration can do two things
to your wine:

-Keep sediments "active" in the wine by preventing them from settiling
completely. Every wine will throw sediments as it age. How much
depends on the type of wine and the storage time.

-Introduce some energy into the aging process. Energy makes a wine age
faster.

So technicly, vibration can have an impact on a wine. But I wouldn't
think that the kind of vibration found in a old refrigerator would
have much of an impact in the short or medium term. Just try not use a
jack hammer around your fridge.

If the choice to store your wine is between a dry warm place and an
old fridge that as a little vibration, I would personnaly go with the
fridge. With all other factors being equal, go for the place that as
less vibration.

> Jim
>

Stefan Mazur

Storing
 

Your answer is much appreciated Stefan and the details duly noted!

I presume a fast matured wine is also of lower quality to fast matured, unless the downside is having to drink stocks
quickly to catch them at their peak ;)

All very interesting though, good luck Steve with your storage.

Jim

> wrote in message oups.com...
> On May 15, 10:06 am, "jim" > wrote:
>> Sorry to be such a ridiculous newb, I have tried not to ask but remain curious. I read that polymerisation occurs
>> between pigments, tannin etc as wine matures. Presumably vibration is thought to prevent this. Does polymerisation
>> build in smoothness and longevity - helping the chemicals to resist degredation or is there some other repercussion?
>> Why is vibration a problem in wine storage?
>>
>
> Hi Jim. Your question is far from stupid. Vibration can do two things
> to your wine:
>
> -Keep sediments "active" in the wine by preventing them from settiling
> completely. Every wine will throw sediments as it age. How much
> depends on the type of wine and the storage time.
>
> -Introduce some energy into the aging process. Energy makes a wine age
> faster.
>
> So technicly, vibration can have an impact on a wine. But I wouldn't
> think that the kind of vibration found in a old refrigerator would
> have much of an impact in the short or medium term. Just try not use a
> jack hammer around your fridge.
>
> If the choice to store your wine is between a dry warm place and an
> old fridge that as a little vibration, I would personnaly go with the
> fridge. With all other factors being equal, go for the place that as
> less vibration.
>
>> Jim
>>
>
> Stefan Mazur
>

Storing
 

Jim,
I don't have an ideal cellar, it's vibration and light free because I
live in Pittsburgh and underground basements with at least 2 walls
underground are the norm because it's hilly. It's a small room, about
4' x 12' that was built as a 'canning cellar'. I don't condition it
so the temperature varies slowly from maximum excursions of around 45
to 70 F. For the most part it's in the 50's in winter to 60's in
summer and fall.

That has worked out quite well for the styles and qualities of wine I
make; they age and mature well. I am still drinking wines I made in
1998 and they are none the worse due to storage.

All I am saying is that at least 95% of the wine made on earth is of
average quality and treating it like a First Growth Bordeaux may not
be justified. Like all things balance has to enter into the
equation. I wouldn't purposely mistreat a wine but I gave up
worrying about wine storage years ago because what I have is better
than average. Once I saw all the mold on old bottles of great wines
stored in caves I understood that my father has been right all along
when he says "It will turn out fine in spite of what you do to it..."

Joe

Storing sorry, slightly OT
 

Heh heh, thanks for that Joe :)

I'm with you on that :) I am very much of the 'relaxed about it' mind when it comes to winemaking. I am still in my
first year and am happy to make great wine that is very cheap compared to that I can buy. I mostly make country wines
with a few kits to keep me bolstered while I anticipate tasting the first of my truly home made results. I am not
deliberately reckless, but started on the premise of Terry Garey's grandmother "Do your best and don't worry." and so I
completely understand and respect where you are coming from. When I have more experience I will feel able to say I
entirely agree with you ;)

I am also blessed/cursed with infatiguable curiosity. I read so much about winemaking written by excellent minds with
experienced hands who will careful express their opinions on the optimum way to do things. The problem is that they so
rarely tell me WHY they do it like that. I am glad to know what to do, but my mind wonders why it should probably be
done that way until it finds an answer (that sounds right) and until then it just it won't rest on the issue! I also
can't remember facts about processes until I understand the reasoning and often the science behind those facts...

Heh heh, I suppose I am just explaining why I hassle the good folk on this board for an answer to so many detailed
questions. It's not that I will or even can make use of the advice at this point, but that I like understanding things
because that way I can remember them and maybe one day do the best that can be done rather than the best I can do.

Cheers again for the continuing helpfulness and goodwill on this board.

Jim


"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message ups.com...
> Jim,
> I don't have an ideal cellar, it's vibration and light free because I
> live in Pittsburgh and underground basements with at least 2 walls
> underground are the norm because it's hilly. It's a small room, about
> 4' x 12' that was built as a 'canning cellar'. I don't condition it
> so the temperature varies slowly from maximum excursions of around 45
> to 70 F. For the most part it's in the 50's in winter to 60's in
> summer and fall.
>
> That has worked out quite well for the styles and qualities of wine I
> make; they age and mature well. I am still drinking wines I made in
> 1998 and they are none the worse due to storage.
>
> All I am saying is that at least 95% of the wine made on earth is of
> average quality and treating it like a First Growth Bordeaux may not
> be justified. Like all things balance has to enter into the
> equation. I wouldn't purposely mistreat a wine but I gave up
> worrying about wine storage years ago because what I have is better
> than average. Once I saw all the mold on old bottles of great wines
> stored in caves I understood that my father has been right all along
> when he says "It will turn out fine in spite of what you do to it..."
>
> Joe
>
>

Storing
 

I have heard and read the comment about the vibration in a refrigerator
posibly being harmful to long term stored wine from other sources. I have
never done it and cannot say whether it is true. Common wisdom can be, and
should be, questioned. But I would not question it by risking years of my
wine production. It seems to be a "wisdom" that has set in. I would not go
against it unless I found clear information indicating it is not true. And
someone saying the don't think it is true is not clear information.

One should question old wives tales. But be willing to take the
consequences if you go against those tales without makeing sure they are
wrong.

Further, if you ask someone you consider an expert for advise but do not
hear what you want to hear, should you then ask people with less expertise
until you hear what you want to hear? Just do what you want to do in the
first place. You might be very happy with the results.

Ray

"Paul Arthur" > wrote in message
om...
> On 2007-05-15, Steve Daniels > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> We bought some wine from Bob The Wine Guy
>> (http://www.cascadecliffs.com/). It's going to be better a
>> couple of years from now, not that there's much wrong with it
>> right now.
>>
>> I had an idea of taking an old refrigerator, modifying the
>> insides to hold wine bottles, and setting it to the highest
>> temperature it would run. We bounced this idea off of Bob The
>> Wine Guy, and he expressed a concern about the vibration of the
>> compressor messing up the wine.
>>
>> So could one insulate the bottles from the vibration using
>> something like water balloons or fiberglass insulation? Is the
>> vibration really that much of an issue?
>
> This is an example of received wisdom. Most people saying that this
> might be an issue have no personal experience, but are merely repeating
> something that they once heard someone express as a possible concern.
> And that person heard it from someone else, et cetera.
>
> Unless you have an extremely aggressive compressor, I wouldn't worry
> about vibration; I'd be more worried about uneven cooling or overly
> large temperature fluctuations, as they're much more likely to actually
> affect the wine.
>
> --
> You shall judge of a man by his foes as well as by his friends.
> --Joseph Conrad