Why Add Water???
 

I've noticed that most of the recipes on Jack Keller's web site call
for the addition of water as a primary ingredient. Why would one want
to intentionaly ameliorate a wine must? I know amelioration is
recommended when pre-fermentation sugar levels are too high but this
would not be the case for most wine musts, especially non-grape wine
musts. What am I missing???

Thanks,
Charles Erwin

Why Add Water???
 

In my opinion, the adding of water is necessary to balance out high
acids (especially in berry wines) or to lower the highly flavourful
component of certain fruits (or grapes) to achieve a desired wine
style. For example, a dry or off-dry table berry wine will need more
dilution than a port style of liqueur style of the same fruit as the
end result wanted will be a less intense, lower acid product.

Marc

On May 5, 10:45 am, Charles E > wrote:
> I've noticed that most of the recipes on Jack Keller's web site call
> for the addition of water as a primary ingredient. Why would one want
> to intentionaly ameliorate a wine must? I know amelioration is
> recommended when pre-fermentation sugar levels are too high but this
> would not be the case for most wine musts, especially non-grape wine
> musts. What am I missing???
>
> Thanks,
> Charles Erwin

Why Add Water???
 

On May 4, 11:45 pm, Charles E > wrote:
> I've noticed that most of the recipes on Jack Keller's web site call
> for the addition of water as a primary ingredient. Why would one want
> to intentionaly ameliorate a wine must? I know amelioration is
> recommended when pre-fermentation sugar levels are too high but this
> would not be the case for most wine musts, especially non-grape wine
> musts. What am I missing???
>
> Thanks,
> Charles Erwin

Some grapes need water for balance. Around here Catawba and Concord
rarely if ever are made without adding water. It's done more to bring
the acid in line but these grapes are just very flavorful, you need to
tone therm down a bit. It's not uncommon to add 20% water/sugar to
Labrusca grapes. Niagara and Diamond are less trouble that way but a
lot of grapes grown in rhe NorthEastern US grapes get some water
rather than chemically reducing the acids.

Joe

Why Add Water???
 

And if you want to lower the acidity without diluting the fruit
intensity, one can add calcium carbonate or potassium carbonate or
Acidex to neutralize some of the acid (up to about 0.4% reduction). This
chemical method of acid reduction raises the pH, so one has to watch the
pH. The pH increase is more with potassium carbonate than with calcium
carbonate. A references credited to Presque Isles for this process that
include more good information and tips can be found at:
http://www.honeyflowfarm.com/newslet...ecvineyard.htm

Gene

Marc Godard wrote:
> In my opinion, the adding of water is necessary to balance out high
> acids (especially in berry wines) or to lower the highly flavourful
> component of certain fruits (or grapes) to achieve a desired wine
> style. For example, a dry or off-dry table berry wine will need more
> dilution than a port style of liqueur style of the same fruit as the
> end result wanted will be a less intense, lower acid product.
>
> Marc
>
> On May 5, 10:45 am, Charles E > wrote:
>> I've noticed that most of the recipes on Jack Keller's web site call
>> for the addition of water as a primary ingredient. Why would one want
>> to intentionaly ameliorate a wine must? I know amelioration is
>> recommended when pre-fermentation sugar levels are too high but this
>> would not be the case for most wine musts, especially non-grape wine
>> musts. What am I missing???
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Charles Erwin
>
>

Why Add Water???
 

On May 4, 8:45 pm, Charles E > wrote:
> most of the recipes on Jack Keller's web site call for the addition of water
> Why would one want to intentionaly ameliorate a wine must?

Back in the day, Ben Rotter and Jack Keller debated this topic. As I
remember it, Jack argued that many fruits had an overpowering flavor
that would have been more like alcoholic fruit juice than wine if
undiluted. Ben felt that most fruit could make very good full flavored
wine and that the idea of using 2-4 lb of fruit and a gallon of water
was more about economy. I don't think it's about acid, as most country
wine recipes call for adding water, sugar, *and* acid. Ben has a great
web site too, check it out at:

www.brsquared.org/wine/

I was just about to suggest searching the archive for this thread, but
I can't find it anymore. In fact, all my Google Groups searches this
morning turned up results from this year only. I know I used to be
able to find threads from many years past; has there been some change
in the archive that I missed? Some preference that I need to set?

Anyway, I made blueberry and cherry wine, last year, as though they
were red wine. That is, I crushed the fruit, added sugar to SG =
1.090, and fermented. I haven't bottled yet, but they seem promising.

Erroll
www.washingtonwinemaker.com

Why Add Water???
 

Good comments Erroll. It does seem strange that water is added to
reduce acidty but then most recipes also call for the addition of
acid. Has anyone else made fruit wines using chemical acid adjustment
without adding water? If so, how did it turn out? Was the fruit
overpowering as the rumor goes???

And finally, I assume adding water will raise the pH. Do most fruit
wines start with a low pH and adding water conveniently brings it into
balance or is pH typically ok to begin with and must then be lowered
(chemically?) after adding water? If so, it just seems like your
trading one evil for another. Perhaps pH is the lesser of two evils...



On 5 May 2007 11:04:39 -0700, Erroll Ozgencil >
wrote:

>On May 4, 8:45 pm, Charles E > wrote:
>> most of the recipes on Jack Keller's web site call for the addition of water
>> Why would one want to intentionaly ameliorate a wine must?
>
>Back in the day, Ben Rotter and Jack Keller debated this topic. As I
>remember it, Jack argued that many fruits had an overpowering flavor
>that would have been more like alcoholic fruit juice than wine if
>undiluted. Ben felt that most fruit could make very good full flavored
>wine and that the idea of using 2-4 lb of fruit and a gallon of water
>was more about economy. I don't think it's about acid, as most country
>wine recipes call for adding water, sugar, *and* acid. Ben has a great
>web site too, check it out at:
>
>www.brsquared.org/wine/
>
>I was just about to suggest searching the archive for this thread, but
>I can't find it anymore. In fact, all my Google Groups searches this
>morning turned up results from this year only. I know I used to be
>able to find threads from many years past; has there been some change
>in the archive that I missed? Some preference that I need to set?
>
>Anyway, I made blueberry and cherry wine, last year, as though they
>were red wine. That is, I crushed the fruit, added sugar to SG =
>1.090, and fermented. I haven't bottled yet, but they seem promising.
>
>Erroll
>www.washingtonwinemaker.com

Why Add Water???
 

I think you are looking for simple answers where there aren't any.
An apple ain't an orange, a lemon ain't a grape, and I can't get
much juice from a dandylion. And while I might drink fresh pressed
apple juice without modification, I certainly wouldn't want lemonade
made from straight lemon juice. A lot of ifs, ands, and buts.

Hmmmmmmm....... Maybe you could look at it this way:
The fruit/flower/whatever is only there for the flavor. You decide how
intense you want the flavor to be for the style of wine you want to
make, and adjust for that. Then, consider the alcohol/acid as seperate
issues. In order for a wine to "keep" (not spoil), alcohol and acid have
to fall within certain ranges. Alcohol needs to be greater than 9%, and
acid should be between ~3.2 to3.6 pH. So you adjust for that.

The trick comes in assembling a must which meets all of these criteria.
Since folks don't usually brag about their mistakes, it's pretty safe to
assume that the recipes you find were successfully done at one time
or another by the writer. And the writer decided that the outcome
was good enough to be passed on.

As Jack Keller once said he "...cooks
follow recipes, chefs create their own...."

HTH

Frederick


"Charles E" > wrote in message
...
> Good comments Erroll. It does seem strange that water is added to
> reduce acidty but then most recipes also call for the addition of
> acid. Has anyone else made fruit wines using chemical acid adjustment
> without adding water? If so, how did it turn out? Was the fruit
> overpowering as the rumor goes???
>
> And finally, I assume adding water will raise the pH. Do most fruit
> wines start with a low pH and adding water conveniently brings it into
> balance or is pH typically ok to begin with and must then be lowered
> (chemically?) after adding water? If so, it just seems like your
> trading one evil for another. Perhaps pH is the lesser of two evils...
>
>
>
> On 5 May 2007 11:04:39 -0700, Erroll Ozgencil >
> wrote:
>
>>On May 4, 8:45 pm, Charles E > wrote:
>>> most of the recipes on Jack Keller's web site call for the addition of
>>> water
>>> Why would one want to intentionaly ameliorate a wine must?
>>
>>Back in the day, Ben Rotter and Jack Keller debated this topic. As I
>>remember it, Jack argued that many fruits had an overpowering flavor
>>that would have been more like alcoholic fruit juice than wine if
>>undiluted. Ben felt that most fruit could make very good full flavored
>>wine and that the idea of using 2-4 lb of fruit and a gallon of water
>>was more about economy. I don't think it's about acid, as most country
>>wine recipes call for adding water, sugar, *and* acid. Ben has a great
>>web site too, check it out at:
>>
>>www.brsquared.org/wine/
>>
>>I was just about to suggest searching the archive for this thread, but
>>I can't find it anymore. In fact, all my Google Groups searches this
>>morning turned up results from this year only. I know I used to be
>>able to find threads from many years past; has there been some change
>>in the archive that I missed? Some preference that I need to set?
>>
>>Anyway, I made blueberry and cherry wine, last year, as though they
>>were red wine. That is, I crushed the fruit, added sugar to SG =
>>1.090, and fermented. I haven't bottled yet, but they seem promising.
>>
>>Erroll
>>www.washingtonwinemaker.com
>

Why Add Water???
 

> I was just about to suggest searching the archive for this thread, but
> I can't find it anymore. In fact, all my Google Groups searches this
> morning turned up results from this year only. I know I used to be
> able to find threads from many years past; has there been some change
> in the archive that I missed? Some preference that I need to set?


It's still working, I found that thread under a search for
'amelioration'.

Joe

Why Add Water???
 

On May 6, 10:00 am, "frederick ploegman" >
wrote:
> I think you are looking for simple answers where there aren't any.
> An apple ain't an orange, a lemon ain't a grape, and I can't get
> much juice from a dandylion. And while I might drink fresh pressed
> apple juice without modification, I certainly wouldn't want lemonade
> made from straight lemon juice. A lot of ifs, ands, and buts.
>
> Hmmmmmmm....... Maybe you could look at it this way:
> The fruit/flower/whatever is only there for the flavor. You decide how
> intense you want the flavor to be for the style of wine you want to
> make, and adjust for that. Then, consider the alcohol/acid as seperate
> issues. In order for a wine to "keep" (not spoil), alcohol and acid have
> to fall within certain ranges. Alcohol needs to be greater than 9%, and
> acid should be between ~3.2 to3.6 pH. So you adjust for that.
>
> As Jack Keller once said he "...cooks
> follow recipes, chefs create their own...."
>
> HTH
>
> Frederick

Nicely said. OT, I make a Limoncello that is well liked; I think it
goes over well because I use a lot of lemon zest for flavor and
color. The rest of it is cheap vodka and cane sugar. It's all about
balance, like most things.

Joe

Why Add Water???
 

On May 5, 8:54 am, gene > wrote:
> And if you want to lower the acidity without diluting the fruit
> intensity, one can add calcium carbonate or potassium carbonate or
> Acidex to neutralize some of the acid (up to about 0.4% reduction). This
> chemical method of acid reduction raises the pH, so one has to watch the
> pH. The pH increase is more with potassium carbonate than with calcium
> carbonate. A references credited to Presque Isles for this process that
> include more good information and tips can be found at:http://www.honeyflowfarm.com/newslet...ecvineyard.htm
>
> Gene
>

Does this really work the same way for fruit wines? Lot of fruits have
no tartaric acid, I believe I've read somewhere the chemical acid
reduction methods work predominantly on tartaric acid...?

Thx,

Pp

Why Add Water???
 

On May 5, 8:25 pm, Charles E > wrote:

>
> And finally, I assume adding water will raise the pH. Do most fruit
> wines start with a low pH and adding water conveniently brings it into
> balance or is pH typically ok to begin with and must then be lowered
> (chemically?) after adding water? If so, it just seems like your
> trading one evil for another. Perhaps pH is the lesser of two evils...
>
> On 5 May 2007 11:04:39 -0700, Erroll Ozgencil >
> wrote:
>

pH scale is logarithmic, so water will have negligible effects on the
must pH when you're making wine.

Pp

Why Add Water???
 

On May 5, 11:04 am, Erroll Ozgencil > wrote:
> On May 4, 8:45 pm, Charles E > wrote:
>
> > most of the recipes on Jack Keller's web site call for the addition of water
> > Why would one want to intentionaly ameliorate a wine must?
>
> Back in the day, Ben Rotter and Jack Keller debated this topic. As I
> remember it, Jack argued that many fruits had an overpowering flavor
> that would have been more like alcoholic fruit juice than wine if
> undiluted. Ben felt that most fruit could make very good full flavored
> wine and that the idea of using 2-4 lb of fruit and a gallon of water
> was more about economy. I don't think it's about acid, as most country
> wine recipes call for adding water, sugar, *and* acid. Ben has a great
> web site too, check it out at:
>
> www.brsquared.org/wine/
>
> I was just about to suggest searching the archive for this thread, but
> I can't find it anymore. In fact, all my Google Groups searches this
> morning turned up results from this year only. I know I used to be
> able to find threads from many years past; has there been some change
> in the archive that I missed? Some preference that I need to set?
>
> Anyway, I made blueberry and cherry wine, last year, as though they
> were red wine. That is, I crushed the fruit, added sugar to SG =
> 1.090, and fermented. I haven't bottled yet, but they seem promising.
>
> Errollwww.washingtonwinemaker.com

Also, one thing I remember from that discussion is that because of
different acid composition in fruits vs. grapes, the pH and TA behave
differently during the fermentation for fruit wines - the bottom line
being that the TA levels can/should be lower (pH higher) for fruit
wines than for grape wines to get a similar result.

Pp

Why Add Water???
 

Blueberry Wine? Sounds delicious. Hope it turns out good.

Why Add Water???
 

I agree that many fruits are too acidic if used undiluted. What I have
never understood about most recipies is why they would have you dilute the
fruit juice and then add acid to the recipe. To me, the ideal way would be
to test the acidity as you dilute it and only dilute it till the acidity is
where you want it and then NOT add any more acid. Any one see aq problem
with this?

Ray

"Charles E" > wrote in message
...
> I've noticed that most of the recipes on Jack Keller's web site call
> for the addition of water as a primary ingredient. Why would one want
> to intentionaly ameliorate a wine must? I know amelioration is
> recommended when pre-fermentation sugar levels are too high but this
> would not be the case for most wine musts, especially non-grape wine
> musts. What am I missing???
>
> Thanks,
> Charles Erwin

Why Add Water???
 

>to me, the ideal way would be
> to test the acidity as you dilute it and only dilute it till the acidity is
> where you want it and then NOT add any more acid. Any one see a problem
> with this?

Sounds good to me but I did that on a mead and screwed it up. It
turns fermentation of honey converts more acids that fermentation of
grapes so my pH went from 3.5 to 2.8 post fermentation. That's where I
learned to listen to my tongue before listening to my electronics...

On the acid reduction comment related to tartaric, those carbonates
prefer tartaric but eat malic too.

Joe

Why Add Water???
 

>
> On the acid reduction comment related to tartaric, those carbonates
> prefer tartaric but eat malic too.
>
> Joe

What about citric?

Pp

Why Add Water???
 

For fruit wines, acidex doesn't work well. It lowers the acid only
marginally but increases the pH. In fruit wine, I see the use of
acidex for the sole purpose of increasing pH of a very low pH wine so
that it may have a healthier fermentation. I have had the best results
from dilution to the acid level wanted, without adding any further
acid except perhaps a tiny amount of citric just prior to bottling to
promote freshness.

On May 8, 6:04 am, pp > wrote:
> > On the acid reduction comment related to tartaric, those carbonates
> > prefer tartaric but eat malic too.
>
> > Joe
>
> What about citric?
>
> Pp

Why Add Water???
 

I'm a mechanical engineer by day so I commonly suffer from analysis
paralysis. I suppose I should concentrate more on being a chef.
Thanks for the reality check!


On Sun, 6 May 2007 09:00:33 -0500, "frederick ploegman"
> wrote:

>I think you are looking for simple answers where there aren't any.
>An apple ain't an orange, a lemon ain't a grape, and I can't get
>much juice from a dandylion. And while I might drink fresh pressed
>apple juice without modification, I certainly wouldn't want lemonade
>made from straight lemon juice. A lot of ifs, ands, and buts.
>
>Hmmmmmmm....... Maybe you could look at it this way:
>The fruit/flower/whatever is only there for the flavor. You decide how
>intense you want the flavor to be for the style of wine you want to
>make, and adjust for that. Then, consider the alcohol/acid as seperate
>issues. In order for a wine to "keep" (not spoil), alcohol and acid have
>to fall within certain ranges. Alcohol needs to be greater than 9%, and
>acid should be between ~3.2 to3.6 pH. So you adjust for that.
>
>The trick comes in assembling a must which meets all of these criteria.
>Since folks don't usually brag about their mistakes, it's pretty safe to
>assume that the recipes you find were successfully done at one time
>or another by the writer. And the writer decided that the outcome
>was good enough to be passed on.
>
>As Jack Keller once said he "...cooks
>follow recipes, chefs create their own...."
>
>HTH
>
> Frederick

Why Add Water???
 

Hi Carles E

All I meant here was that a wine (and therefore the must) has to be
ballanced, so we can't consider just one aspect of the problem to the
exclusion of all else. Maybe if I ramble on a bit here the folks in the
group might find my comments helpful.

The major things that have to be considered a

1. Flavor - (type(s) and stylistic intensity)
2. Sugar/alcohol - (quantity by concentration)
3. Acid - (types and quantity by concentration)

A procedure I sometimes used when starting with an unfamiliar base
(fruit) was as follows:

Starting with the base I would check the sugar (SG/PA). I would then
adjust the sugar by addition or dilution to get the desired concentration
to give me the end alcohol I wanted. (usually 11-12PA). I would then
make up a sugar water solution of the same concentration. This allowed
me to continue dilution (if necessary) without changing the sugar
concentration of the must.

Second, I would check the acid. If this was too low I knew I would
have to add some later but I would want to do this as a last step since
the additions are small and have minimal impact on the volume of the
must. However, if the acid was too high, I would continue diluting
using the sugar water solution until I had the acid down to something
manageable. It should be remembered here that chemical reduction of
acids results in the formation of salts which remain in the wine and have
their own charactoristics (flavors) which can adversly effect the wine
if their concentration rises above the level of perception. Clear as mud,
right ?? Anyway, control acids by dilution whenever possible and keep
chemical adjustments to a minimum.

Third, I would then turn my attention to the stylistic intensity of flavor
I might want. Maybe an intense desert wine requiring no further
dilution. Maybe a medium off dry wine that would require a little more
dilution. Or maybe a light dry table wine that would require even
more dilution. Of course this should have been determined before I
started because if I have to dilute to get the flavor intensity where I
want it, it would also impact the acid concentration. So - these two
steps actually have to be played one against the other. Again, clear
as mud, right ??

Lastly I would turn my attention to making any acid additions (if
necessary) to finally bring the must into ballance.

Certainly not the only way to skin a cat, but I found it useful......

HTH

Frederick

PS - Please excuse all the typos. Didn't have time to edit.......



"Charles E" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> I'm a mechanical engineer by day so I commonly suffer from analysis
> paralysis. I suppose I should concentrate more on being a chef.
> Thanks for the reality check!
>
>
> On Sun, 6 May 2007 09:00:33 -0500, "frederick ploegman"
> > wrote:
>
>>I think you are looking for simple answers where there aren't any.
>>An apple ain't an orange, a lemon ain't a grape, and I can't get
>>much juice from a dandylion. And while I might drink fresh pressed
>>apple juice without modification, I certainly wouldn't want lemonade
>>made from straight lemon juice. A lot of ifs, ands, and buts.
>>
>>Hmmmmmmm....... Maybe you could look at it this way:
>>The fruit/flower/whatever is only there for the flavor. You decide how
>>intense you want the flavor to be for the style of wine you want to
>>make, and adjust for that. Then, consider the alcohol/acid as seperate
>>issues. In order for a wine to "keep" (not spoil), alcohol and acid have
>>to fall within certain ranges. Alcohol needs to be greater than 9%, and
>>acid should be between ~3.2 to3.6 pH. So you adjust for that.
>>
>>The trick comes in assembling a must which meets all of these criteria.
>>Since folks don't usually brag about their mistakes, it's pretty safe to
>>assume that the recipes you find were successfully done at one time
>>or another by the writer. And the writer decided that the outcome
>>was good enough to be passed on.
>>
>>As Jack Keller once said he "...cooks
>>follow recipes, chefs create their own...."
>>
>>HTH
>>
>> Frederick
>

Why Add Water???
 

That is what I do now with one qualification. I get the sugar
balanced and _taste_ before I work the acids.

I threw taste in there from painful experience. You would think a
book from Penn State on winemaking would be a reliable source of
information when making Strawberry wine for the first time, right? I
did. Well, like an idiot I did not question the huge addition of
citric acid they indicated and just dumped it in. The typo in the
ingredient list became obvious once I tasted it. They meant
teaspoons, not tablespoons. The good news was that instead of making
5 gallons of strawberry, I made 15. That's 75 bottles of sweet wine;
I don't really drink sweet wines often; that was the bad news.

The moral of the story is it's your wine; even if you have never made
wine before either verify the recipe is correct from someone who has
followed it or proceed with caution when adding things that have a
major impact on flavor. I would consider those to be water, sugar and
acid. It never hurts to measure out what you need and add it 1/3 at a
time, tasting in between. The must should not be cloyingly sweet
unless you want a sweet wine in the end; it should not taste like
lemonade either. Another benefit of tasting is training you palate,
even if you guess wrong and have to adjust things later, the next time
you have a benchmark to work from. Your taste buds are probably the
most important tool you have when making wine.

Joe

Why Add Water???
 

I like your approach here. It is methodical and offers some better
alternatives to chemical adjustments. Great stuff Frederick! Thanks
for taking the time to explain it so thoroughly...

Charles


On Tue, 8 May 2007 11:05:04 -0500, "frederick ploegman"
> wrote:

>Hi Carles E
>
>All I meant here was that a wine (and therefore the must) has to be
>ballanced, so we can't consider just one aspect of the problem to the
>exclusion of all else. Maybe if I ramble on a bit here the folks in the
>group might find my comments helpful.
>
>The major things that have to be considered a
>
>1. Flavor - (type(s) and stylistic intensity)
>2. Sugar/alcohol - (quantity by concentration)
>3. Acid - (types and quantity by concentration)
>
>A procedure I sometimes used when starting with an unfamiliar base
>(fruit) was as follows:
>
>Starting with the base I would check the sugar (SG/PA). I would then
>adjust the sugar by addition or dilution to get the desired concentration
>to give me the end alcohol I wanted. (usually 11-12PA). I would then
>make up a sugar water solution of the same concentration. This allowed
>me to continue dilution (if necessary) without changing the sugar
>concentration of the must.
>
>Second, I would check the acid. If this was too low I knew I would
>have to add some later but I would want to do this as a last step since
>the additions are small and have minimal impact on the volume of the
>must. However, if the acid was too high, I would continue diluting
>using the sugar water solution until I had the acid down to something
>manageable. It should be remembered here that chemical reduction of
>acids results in the formation of salts which remain in the wine and have
>their own charactoristics (flavors) which can adversly effect the wine
>if their concentration rises above the level of perception. Clear as mud,
>right ?? Anyway, control acids by dilution whenever possible and keep
>chemical adjustments to a minimum.
>
>Third, I would then turn my attention to the stylistic intensity of flavor
>I might want. Maybe an intense desert wine requiring no further
>dilution. Maybe a medium off dry wine that would require a little more
>dilution. Or maybe a light dry table wine that would require even
>more dilution. Of course this should have been determined before I
>started because if I have to dilute to get the flavor intensity where I
>want it, it would also impact the acid concentration. So - these two
>steps actually have to be played one against the other. Again, clear
>as mud, right ??
>
>Lastly I would turn my attention to making any acid additions (if
>necessary) to finally bring the must into ballance.
>
>Certainly not the only way to skin a cat, but I found it useful......
>
>HTH
>
> Frederick
>
>PS - Please excuse all the typos. Didn't have time to edit.......
>
>
>
>"Charles E" > wrote in message
.. .
>>
>>
>> I'm a mechanical engineer by day so I commonly suffer from analysis
>> paralysis. I suppose I should concentrate more on being a chef.
>> Thanks for the reality check!
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 6 May 2007 09:00:33 -0500, "frederick ploegman"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>I think you are looking for simple answers where there aren't any.
>>>An apple ain't an orange, a lemon ain't a grape, and I can't get
>>>much juice from a dandylion. And while I might drink fresh pressed
>>>apple juice without modification, I certainly wouldn't want lemonade
>>>made from straight lemon juice. A lot of ifs, ands, and buts.
>>>
>>>Hmmmmmmm....... Maybe you could look at it this way:
>>>The fruit/flower/whatever is only there for the flavor. You decide how
>>>intense you want the flavor to be for the style of wine you want to
>>>make, and adjust for that. Then, consider the alcohol/acid as seperate
>>>issues. In order for a wine to "keep" (not spoil), alcohol and acid have
>>>to fall within certain ranges. Alcohol needs to be greater than 9%, and
>>>acid should be between ~3.2 to3.6 pH. So you adjust for that.
>>>
>>>The trick comes in assembling a must which meets all of these criteria.
>>>Since folks don't usually brag about their mistakes, it's pretty safe to
>>>assume that the recipes you find were successfully done at one time
>>>or another by the writer. And the writer decided that the outcome
>>>was good enough to be passed on.
>>>
>>>As Jack Keller once said he "...cooks
>>>follow recipes, chefs create their own...."
>>>
>>>HTH
>>>
>>> Frederick
>>
>

Why Add Water???
 

"pp" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On May 5, 8:54 am, gene > wrote:
>> And if you want to lower the acidity without diluting the fruit
>> intensity, one can add calcium carbonate or potassium carbonate or
>> Acidex to neutralize some of the acid (up to about 0.4% reduction). This
>> chemical method of acid reduction raises the pH, so one has to watch the
>> pH. The pH increase is more with potassium carbonate than with calcium
>> carbonate. A references credited to Presque Isles for this process that
>> include more good information and tips can be found
>> at:http://www.honeyflowfarm.com/newslet...ecvineyard.htm
>>
>> Gene
>>
>
> Does this really work the same way for fruit wines? Lot of fruits have
> no tartaric acid, I believe I've read somewhere the chemical acid
> reduction methods work predominantly on tartaric acid...?
>
> Thx,
>
> Pp

Hi Pp

Just saw this one. Only grapes contain Tartaric acid. So, unless the
maker intentionally adds it to an otherwise non-tartaric wine, it is not a
consideration at all. Most all acids can be reduced chemically using
carbonates. But (big but)........Chemical reactions take time. Some are
fast and some are slow(er). Tartaric happens to react faster than the
other common acids found in wine. In doing so it tends to "use up" the
available carbonates before the other (slower) reactions have a chance
to take place. And, in an inclosed environment, when the carbonates are
gone, there is non left to react with the other acids. Thus the "preference
for tartaric" statements that we hear.

Not a very technical explaination, but one that a layman might
understand. HTH

Why Add Water???
 

Your observation is right, Joe. Acid tests do not work on meads. Honey is
a great buffer which hides the response to our acid tests and corrections.
This is one of the main differences in making mead. You cannot adjust acid
until after it is made and then you do it with your tounge. It is a tough
job but someone has to do it.

Ray

"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> >to me, the ideal way would be
>> to test the acidity as you dilute it and only dilute it till the acidity
>> is
>> where you want it and then NOT add any more acid. Any one see a problem
>> with this?
>
> Sounds good to me but I did that on a mead and screwed it up. It
> turns fermentation of honey converts more acids that fermentation of
> grapes so my pH went from 3.5 to 2.8 post fermentation. That's where I
> learned to listen to my tongue before listening to my electronics...
>
> On the acid reduction comment related to tartaric, those carbonates
> prefer tartaric but eat malic too.
>
> Joe
>
>

Why Add Water???
 

Ray Calvert wrote:

> Your observation is right, Joe. Acid tests do
> not work on meads. Honey is a great buffer
> which hides the response to our acid tests and
> corrections.
> This is one of the main differences in making
> mead. You cannot adjust acid
> until after it is made and then you do it with
> your tounge. It is a tough job but someone has
> to do it.
>
> Ray

I'll second that. I have made two meads
(melomels) in the last year and the pH is about
3.2 but it sure does not taste that acidic.


>
> "Joe Sallustio" > wrote in
> message
>
ups.com...
>> >to me, the ideal way would be
>>> to test the acidity as you dilute it and only
>>> dilute it till the acidity is
>>> where you want it and then NOT add any more
>>> acid. Any one see a problem with this?
>>
>> Sounds good to me but I did that on a mead and
>> screwed it up. It turns fermentation of honey
>> converts more acids that fermentation of grapes
>> so my pH went from 3.5 to 2.8 post
>> fermentation. That's where I learned to listen
>> to my tongue before listening to my
>> electronics...
>>
>> On the acid reduction comment related to
>> tartaric, those carbonates prefer tartaric but
>> eat malic too.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>

Why Add Water???
 

On May 11, 7:20 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" > wrote:
> Ray Calvert wrote:
> > Your observation is right, Joe. Acid tests do
> > not work on meads. Honey is a great buffer
> > which hides the response to our acid tests and
> > corrections.
> > This is one of the main differences in making
> > mead. You cannot adjust acid
> > until after it is made and then you do it with
> > your tounge. It is a tough job but someone has
> > to do it.
>
> > Ray
>
> I'll second that. I have made two meads
> (melomels) in the last year and the pH is about
> 3.2 but it sure does not taste that acidic.
>
>
>
> > "Joe Sallustio" > wrote in
> > message
>
> ups.com...
>
>
>
> >> >to me, the ideal way would be
> >>> to test the acidity as you dilute it and only
> >>> dilute it till the acidity is
> >>> where you want it and then NOT add any more
> >>> acid. Any one see a problem with this?
>
> >> Sounds good to me but I did that on a mead and
> >> screwed it up. It turns fermentation of honey
> >> converts more acids that fermentation of grapes
> >> so my pH went from 3.5 to 2.8 post
> >> fermentation. That's where I learned to listen
> >> to my tongue before listening to my
> >> electronics...
>
> >> On the acid reduction comment related to
> >> tartaric, those carbonates prefer tartaric but
> >> eat malic too.
>
> >> Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'll bet that is why mead keeps forever. No one thinks Grolsh bottles
are good for long therm storage but my first mead was bottled in 4 of
those. We just had the last one, it was close to 10 years old. It
did not suffer, it was great.

Joe

Why Add Water???
 

"Joe Sallustio" > wrote in message
ups.com...

>
> Nicely said. OT, I make a Limoncello that is well liked; I think it
> goes over well because I use a lot of lemon zest for flavor and
> color. The rest of it is cheap vodka and cane sugar. It's all about
> balance, like most things.
>
> Joe
>

Hi Joe

OT - Sorry folks. Saw this mentioned in a TV movie (of all places).
They gave it as one part sugar disolved in 3 parts alcohol and poured
over lemon zest. When the flavor was judged to be right it was strained
and bottled. Seems to me that straight alcohol would make an awful
"hot" drink. Since cheap vodka is about 60% water, your method
sounds a lot more "user friendly" !!

When I was young (and dumb) we used to make a lot of flavored vodkas
using everything from snow cone syrups to "fizzies" (remember those ??).
The fizzies were gawd awful but some of the snow cone syrups worked
pretty well. Long story short, the use of snow cone (type) syrups
carried over into my winemaking. Mostly as a way to "dress up" wines
that had turned out to be less than wonderful. Just no end to the things
that can be done in this hobby !! ;o)

I sometimes wonder if the high priced "flavorings" they sell in hobby shops
are nothing more than repackaged snow cone syrups..........

Regards,

Frederick

Why Add Water???
 

On May 7, 5:12 pm, Joe Sallustio > wrote:
> >to me, the ideal way would be
> > to test the acidity as you dilute it and only dilute it till the acidity is
> > where you want it and then NOT add any more acid. Any one see a problem
> > with this?
>
> Sounds good to me but I did that on a mead and screwed it up. It
> turns fermentation of honey converts more acids that fermentation of
> grapes so my pH went from 3.5 to 2.8 post fermentation. That's where I
> learned to listen to my tongue before listening to my electronics...
>
> On the acid reduction comment related to tartaric, those carbonates
> prefer tartaric but eat malic too.
>
> Joe

I feel for you Joe-

The first batch of mead I lowered my pH to 3.8 with Tartaric acid- and
it dropped like a rock. The second one I lowered it to 4.5... and it
STILL dropped to under 3.0. The third was to 5.6, and finally the
last was to 6.5. I started taking pH measurements 2x a day to watch
the acid drop- can't remember if I correlated it with SG or not, but
(without my data) I remember that, regardless, the >5.0 ph starts all
came to align around 3.4- where the yeast really wanted to be.

So I don't mess with pH at all anymore, except to give it just a
little bit of acid in the beginning. I figure it'll all crystallize
out of the bottle anyway.

Jason