I made my first wine not long ago and after three months in the bottle I
don't like it very much. My wife and I drink about one case of wine a month
so we know what we like, but we can't quite place what's wrong with this
wine. If it helps, I've been brewing beer for 14 years so it's only the
wine part I'm a newbie with. We love cabernets. To us, the wine tastes
cheap, a pinch fruity, and thin.

I used a Vintner's Reserve juice kit. I followed the instructions verbatum
with no changes, and let the wine age in the bottle for three months. I'm
suspecting that either this juice kit isn't really all that great, or the
wine needs a much longer aging time. I didn't add any additional
preservatives and the juice kit made it clear that it doesn't come with
enough for long term aging.

Could there be other reasons other than aging that could cause us to not
like the wine?

Cheers,
Scott

"Scott Lindner" > wrote in message
. ..
>I made my first wine not long ago and after three months in the bottle I
>don't like it very much. My wife and I drink about one case of wine a
>month so we know what we like, but we can't quite place what's wrong with
>this wine. If it helps, I've been brewing beer for 14 years so it's only
>the wine part I'm a newbie with. We love cabernets. To us, the wine
>tastes cheap, a pinch fruity, and thin.
>
> I used a Vintner's Reserve juice kit. I followed the instructions
> verbatum with no changes, and let the wine age in the bottle for three
> months. I'm suspecting that either this juice kit isn't really all that
> great, or the wine needs a much longer aging time. I didn't add any
> additional preservatives and the juice kit made it clear that it doesn't
> come with enough for long term aging.
>
> Could there be other reasons other than aging that could cause us to not
> like the wine?
>
> Cheers,
> Scott
probably the kit but ask here...
http://www.winepress.us/forums/index.php

choose 'kit wine comments'
much info there

Scott Lindner wrote "I made my first wine not long ago and after three
months in the bottle I
don't like it very much.....I've been brewing beer for 14 years....We love
cabernets....To us, the wine tastes
cheap, a pinch fruity, and thin.....I used a Vintner's Reserve juice kit."

Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine kits make pretty good wine).
It will be hard to produce a proper tasting Cabernet without using whole
grapes and a fermentation scheme that includes primary fermentation in
contact with the skins. With your experience brewing you know a lot of
what you need to make good wine. You already know about the influence of
yeast on the taste and mouthfeel of finished beer. Rather than use yeast
that comes with the kit select a yeast that builds body (I like BM45 for
Cabernet). Also, read up on enological tannins such as Tan'Cor Grand Cru
and Grap'Tan S. Addition of small amounts of these tannins during bulk
aging can add body to thin wines. Plan on buying some Cabernet Sauvignon
grapes for your next attempt. Include a 3 or 4 day cold soak (at 40F)
before starting fermentation. That step will extract a lot of what the
grapes have to offer before fermentation. Good luck.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

William Frazier wrote:
> Scott Lindner wrote "I made my first wine not long ago and after three
> months in the bottle I
> don't like it very much.....I've been brewing beer for 14 years....We love
> cabernets....To us, the wine tastes
> cheap, a pinch fruity, and thin.....I used a Vintner's Reserve juice kit."
>
> Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine kits make pretty good wine).
> It will be hard to produce a proper tasting Cabernet without using whole
> grapes and a fermentation scheme that includes primary fermentation in
> contact with the skins. With your experience brewing you know a lot of
> what you need to make good wine. You already know about the influence of
> yeast on the taste and mouthfeel of finished beer. Rather than use yeast
> that comes with the kit select a yeast that builds body (I like BM45 for
> Cabernet). Also, read up on enological tannins such as Tan'Cor Grand Cru
> and Grap'Tan S. Addition of small amounts of these tannins during bulk
> aging can add body to thin wines. Plan on buying some Cabernet Sauvignon
> grapes for your next attempt. Include a 3 or 4 day cold soak (at 40F)
> before starting fermentation. That step will extract a lot of what the
> grapes have to offer before fermentation. Good luck.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA
>
Excuse the beginner's question, but where would you get Cabernet
Sauvignon grapes, fresh and in good condition, if you don't live in
California or another wine growing area?

Jim

JimC wrote:

>
>
> William Frazier wrote:
>> Scott Lindner wrote "I made my first wine not
>> long ago and after three months in the bottle I
>> don't like it very much.....I've been brewing
>> beer for 14 years....We love
>> cabernets....To us, the wine tastes
>> cheap, a pinch fruity, and thin.....I used a
>> Vintner's Reserve juice kit."
>>
>> Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine
>> kits make pretty good wine). It will be hard to
>> produce a proper tasting Cabernet without using
>> whole grapes and a fermentation scheme that
>> includes primary fermentation in
>> contact with the skins. With your experience
>> brewing you know a lot of
>> what you need to make good wine. You already
>> know about the influence of
>> yeast on the taste and mouthfeel of finished
>> beer. Rather than use yeast that comes with
>> the kit select a yeast that builds body (I like
>> BM45 for
>> Cabernet). Also, read up on enological tannins
>> such as Tan'Cor Grand Cru
>> and Grap'Tan S. Addition of small amounts of
>> these tannins during bulk
>> aging can add body to thin wines. Plan on
>> buying some Cabernet Sauvignon
>> grapes for your next attempt. Include a 3 or 4
>> day cold soak (at 40F)
>> before starting fermentation. That step will
>> extract a lot of what the
>> grapes have to offer before fermentation. Good
>> luck.
>>
>> Bill Frazier
>> Olathe, Kansas USA
>>
> Excuse the beginner's question, but where would
> you get Cabernet Sauvignon grapes, fresh and in
> good condition, if you don't live in California
> or another wine growing area?
>
> Jim

Where do you live, Jim?

> Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine kits make pretty good
> wine). It will be hard to produce a proper tasting Cabernet without using
> whole grapes and a fermentation scheme that includes primary fermentation
> in contact with the skins.

Grrrr..... I asked this precise question before buying wine making
equipment. I asked if I can make good red wines of the same quality I enjoy
today. The answer was an overwhelming yes. It's not your fault, but long
ago I feared that the places I asked (not on RCW) had a bunch of folks that
don't really know what good wine is.

I live in Colorado so getting good whole grapes is going to be challenging.

Scott

"Scott Lindner" > wrote in message
. ..
>> Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine kits make pretty good
>> wine). It will be hard to produce a proper tasting Cabernet without using
>> whole grapes and a fermentation scheme that includes primary fermentation
>> in contact with the skins.
>
> Grrrr..... I asked this precise question before buying wine making
> equipment. I asked if I can make good red wines of the same quality I
> enjoy today. The answer was an overwhelming yes. It's not your fault,
> but long

I've made several red wine kits - Cabernet, Valpolicella, and Merlot.
They're all fine, and I'm very happy with them.
My next kit will be Zinfandel.
I live in Maine so fresh grapes are out of the question. I'd have to drive
many miles into New York State by Lake Erie to get fresh grapes or juice.

You mentioned that the wine tastes thin. I'm wondering if you may have
added too much water to top off the carboy during racking.

> I've made several red wine kits - Cabernet, Valpolicella, and Merlot.
> They're all fine, and I'm very happy with them.
[snip]

That may be true, but my wife and I drink about a case per month of store
bought wine and we're very selective. It could simply be my selection of
the kit that we don't like. Plus, when we lived in San Diego there were
tons of people that loved Two Buck Chuck. Blech! I'm not saying you like
cheap wine, but when I first investigated this I explained that my wife and
I drink wine in the $12 to $20/bottle range. So I'm curious what may have
gone wrong with my first kit I made. Maybe all that was wrong was my
expectation.


> You mentioned that the wine tastes thin. I'm wondering if you may have
> added too much water to top off the carboy during racking.

I guess that's possible. I didn't add too much though. Maybe a cup or so.
Is that normal or a lot?

Scott

Scott Lindner wrote:
>> I've made several red wine kits - Cabernet, Valpolicella, and Merlot.
>> They're all fine, and I'm very happy with them.
> [snip]
>
> That may be true, but my wife and I drink about a case per month of store
> bought wine and we're very selective. It could simply be my selection of
> the kit that we don't like. Plus, when we lived in San Diego there were
> tons of people that loved Two Buck Chuck. Blech! I'm not saying you like
> cheap wine, but when I first investigated this I explained that my wife and
> I drink wine in the $12 to $20/bottle range. So I'm curious what may have
> gone wrong with my first kit I made. Maybe all that was wrong was my
> expectation.
>
>
>> You mentioned that the wine tastes thin. I'm wondering if you may have
>> added too much water to top off the carboy during racking.
>
> I guess that's possible. I didn't add too much though. Maybe a cup or so.
> Is that normal or a lot?
>
> Scott
>
>

As another newbie to winemaking, allow me to toss in my 2 cents worth:

My guru, who first started me on the path of wine making, gave to me
these words of wisdom:

"When it comes to wine kits, you really do get what you pay for."

In other words price does matter. My first kit was on the very low end
of the range - Argentia Pinot Grigio - I didn't want to spend a great
deal of money on a kit until I got the hang of it. Now, due to a couple
of what now I believe to be fortuitous accidents, I managed to stretch a
4 week wine kit into 3 months. The end result was not bad. Granted, as
vin, it was pretty ordinaire, but drinkable. I really did not expect
much more. like wise the Chianti from the same series. These two kits
gave me the confidence to try something better.

I have gradually been moving up the ladder, and buying more expensive
kits. I expect more from these kits than I did from the first. From
what I gather from reading here and in in my local wine making supply
shops, Selection International, while not bad, is not "great". From the
literature I picked up in the brew shops, (every trip, I leave with
whole sheaves of pamphlets)I would not expect as much from a Selection
International (their lower end) as I would from the same company's
Selection Estate, or Selection Limited Edition. However, I would expect
more from the Selection International than I would the Argentia where I
began.

Another person here wrote, and I quote, "you can spend $100 and get a
good wine kit, or you can spend $150 and get a great one."

My advice: try another, better kit. I think you will be much more
satisfied with the results.

Abby
--
The ChildFree Abby Archives - http://www.dismal-light.net/childfreeabby/

"Scott Lindner" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>> You mentioned that the wine tastes thin. I'm wondering if you may have
>> added too much water to top off the carboy during racking.
>
> I guess that's possible. I didn't add too much though. Maybe a cup or
> so. Is that normal or a lot?

That's good... not much at all.
How long did you let this batch age?
I've found that it generally doesn't get too good until it's been aging
for over a year.

Scott Lindner wrote:

>> Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine
>> kits make pretty good wine). It will be hard to
>> produce a proper tasting Cabernet without using
>> whole grapes and a fermentation scheme that
>> includes primary fermentation in contact with
>> the skins.
>
> Grrrr..... I asked this precise question before
> buying wine making
> equipment. I asked if I can make good red wines
> of the same quality I enjoy
> today. The answer was an overwhelming yes.
> It's not your fault, but long ago I feared that
> the places I asked (not on RCW) had a bunch of
> folks that don't really know what good wine is.
>
> I live in Colorado so getting good whole grapes
> is going to be challenging.
>
> Scott

I don't know what part of Colorado you live in but
Grand Junction area grows a lot of grapes and
there are more vineyards going in all the time.

> I don't know what part of Colorado you live in but
> Grand Junction area grows a lot of grapes and
> there are more vineyards going in all the time.

We're in Colorado Springs. That might be OK for a road trip during the
summer. Thanks for the suggestion.

Scott

Scott Lindner wrote:

>> I don't know what part of Colorado you live in
>> but Grand Junction area grows a lot of grapes
>> and there are more vineyards going in all the
>> time.
>
> We're in Colorado Springs. That might be OK for
> a road trip during the
> summer. Thanks for the suggestion.
>
> Scott

While on your road trip, swing down to Moab, Utah.
Believe it or not, there is a winegrowing going
on there and the winery we visited had some very
nice wines.

In article >,
says...
> > I don't know what part of Colorado you live in but
> > Grand Junction area grows a lot of grapes and
> > there are more vineyards going in all the time.
>
> We're in Colorado Springs. That might be OK for a road trip during the
> summer. Thanks for the suggestion.
>
> Scott
>
>
>
Have you checked with the winery down on the south end of the Springs?
Info is here http://www.coloradowine.com/wineries/wineryDetail.cfm?
wineryID=36.
I don't know if the guy can help but he is fun to talk to. Does OK wih
his wines also. I visit there whenever I get out to the Springs.

--
Mike & Cindy

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Mar 28, 7:05 am, "Scott Lindner" > wrote:
> > Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine kits make pretty good
> > wine). It will be hard to produce a proper tasting Cabernet without using
> > whole grapes and a fermentation scheme that includes primary fermentation
> > in contact with the skins.
>
> Grrrr..... I asked this precise question before buying wine making
> equipment. I asked if I can make good red wines of the same quality I enjoy
> today. The answer was an overwhelming yes. It's not your fault, but long
> ago I feared that the places I asked (not on RCW) had a bunch of folks that
> don't really know what good wine is.
>
> I live in Colorado so getting good whole grapes is going to be challenging.
>
> Scott

Based on my limited kit wine experience, I'm with Bill on this one,
but I am lucky in that I have an easy access to great quality grapes.
In your situation, I'd probably give it another try but with a high
end kit - Vintner's Reserve is pretty basic. Even better, if you can
sample the finished product that would give you a good idea what to
expect - the BOP stores here in Canada cannot serve samples but from
what I've heard that's generally not the case in the US.

I will keep trying every 2-3 years or so in the hopes the quality will
get there - the variety of wines one can get out of kits is pretty
much unbeatable in scope. And you can make them all year round.

Pp

"pp" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Mar 28, 7:05 am, "Scott Lindner" > wrote:
>> > Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine kits make pretty good
>> > wine). It will be hard to produce a proper tasting Cabernet without
>> > using
>> > whole grapes and a fermentation scheme that includes primary
>> > fermentation
>> > in contact with the skins.
>
> Based on my limited kit wine experience, I'm with Bill on this one,
> but I am lucky in that I have an easy access to great quality grapes.
> In your situation, I'd probably give it another try but with a high
> end kit - Vintner's Reserve is pretty basic. Even better, if you can
> sample the finished product that would give you a good idea what to
> expect - the BOP stores here in Canada cannot serve samples but from
> what I've heard that's generally not the case in the US.
>
> I will keep trying every 2-3 years or so in the hopes the quality will
> get there - the variety of wines one can get out of kits is pretty
> much unbeatable in scope. And you can make them all year round.


I've also been homebrewing beer for years and would like to try my hand at
making wine. Would anyone with experience care to suggest some "high end"
kits that they have found to be worthwhile? I've noticed some of the kits
can get fairly costly, and I also know that cost doesn't always equate into
quality. Any experiences are appreciated... (FYI, my wife and I lean more
toward the reds - Pinot Noir, Cabernet)

kevin

> I've also been homebrewing beer for years and would like to try my hand at
> making wine. Would anyone with experience care to suggest some "high end"
> kits that they have found to be worthwhile? I've noticed some of the kits
> can get fairly costly, and I also know that cost doesn't always equate
> into quality. Any experiences are appreciated... (FYI, my wife and I
> lean more toward the reds - Pinot Noir, Cabernet)

We should join forces. We drink strictly Cabernets at home and we're both
experienced homebrewers.

Scott

> Based on my limited kit wine experience, I'm with Bill on this one,
> but I am lucky in that I have an easy access to great quality grapes.
> In your situation, I'd probably give it another try but with a high
> end kit - Vintner's Reserve is pretty basic. Even better, if you can
> sample the finished product that would give you a good idea what to
> expect - the BOP stores here in Canada cannot serve samples but from
> what I've heard that's generally not the case in the US.

That's a great suggestion. I order my kits online though, so I don't really
have the opportunity to sample. There is one place that sells the kits
locally. I visited the store since it's primarily a homebrew store which is
my real passion. The storage practices appauled me and the owner was
extremely arrogant so I made the decision that I can't support it and will
order online or drive to Denver. Hmm... maybe that's what I'll do is hit up
the local places in Denver and sample.

I will take note that Vintner's Reserve is basic. That could simply be it
right there. So far it seems like the general direction is to buy a better
(or different) yeast, sample the kit before buying, and buy a better juice
kit.


> I will keep trying every 2-3 years or so in the hopes the quality will
> get there - the variety of wines one can get out of kits is pretty
> much unbeatable in scope. And you can make them all year round.

I'm not sure i understand your point. Are you saying I should let the wine
age 2-3 years and try at that interval?

Scott

On Mar 30, 5:54 am, "Scott Lindner" > wrote:
>
> I'm not sure i understand your point. Are you saying I should let the wine
> age 2-3 years and try at that interval?
>
> Scott

No, sorry, that was a comment on my practice. What I meant was that
I'm planning to make a high end red wine kit every 2-3 years to see
where the general quality is. For my taste, red kits don't compare to
the wine I can make from grapes but if they get there, it would be a
major bonus.

Pp

"I live in Colorado so getting good whole grapes is going to be
challenging."

Scott - I'm not trying to lead amateaur winemakers away from RCW but I
suggest going to Winepress.US. Ask about Colorado grapes. There are
several Colorado winemakers that post on that forum who seem to know a lot
about winemaking from fresh grapes.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

> Scott - I'm not trying to lead amateaur winemakers away from RCW but I
> suggest going to Winepress.US. Ask about Colorado grapes. There are
> several Colorado winemakers that post on that forum who seem to know a lot
> about winemaking from fresh grapes.

That's an excellent suggestion. Thanks!

With homebrewing I have found that RCB is a better resource than most forums
because there's a lot more people contributing. Although you have to deal
with a higher volume of pricks too. So I'll probably visit the forum, but
get the bulk of my goodness from RCW.

Cheers,
Scott

Scott -

Hmmm. I think an honest answer to your question (about red
wines) would be a "maybe." For white wines, I think I could say "yes"
with a clear conscience, unless you are used to drinking $50 bottles
of white burgundy. For reds, though, it's a bit harder. There are
some really good red kits out there. If you are looking for a big,
tannic Cab, I don't think you are going to find anything satisfactory
in the VR line. I do like some of the VR reds -- I've made the
Chianti four or five times, and am always running out. Everybody
likes it; it's very pleasant to have with food, but it's not what
you're looking for.

In the WinExpert kits, your best bet is probably the Woodbridge Ranch
11 Cabernet Sauvignon kit. Plan to age it for a year or longer,
though. WE does not have any "grape pack" Cab kits at this time; the
"grape pack" kits (WE calls theirs "Crushendo") generally get the best
reviews among reds. You might check out the several WE Crushendo kits
that are available, to see if any of them appeal to you. I've done a
couple of them so far, and have been pretty impressed. Alternatively,
if you are looking for something with a lot of tannins, I believe I've
seen comments from Tim Vandergrift of WE that the Italian
Montepulciano (in the Selection International line) is about their
most tannic kit, so you might consider that one. Again, plan to age
it for a year. One more possibility you might consider is the April
WE Limited Edition red kit - a blend of Cab and Tempranillo from
Spain. The Limited Edition kits are "one-time" deals, but are usually
quite good. If you check around in the next few days, you should be
able to find retailers that still have some of this one available - it
will be arriving at US retailers over the next week or two, I think.
I did the LE Petit Verdot kit two years ago, and it is now really
impressive.

If you are interested in fresh grapes in the fall, there may well be
sources for those. There is a winemaker who posts under the name of
Yogi on winepress.us -- I believe he is in Colorado, and is a member
of a good-sized group that brings several tons of grapes every fall.
He might be a good source. I live in Minnesota, where you might think
fresh wine grapes would be about impossible to find -- but not so,
there is a gentleman in St Paul that brings in a truck-load every
fall. It may take some research, but I think you'll be surprised at
what's available, if you check around.

The other possibility is to order some pails of frozen crushed red
grapes from Brehm Vineyards. They are premium grapes from some of the
best vineyards in Napa, Sonoma, etc., and the prices reflect that.
You are making wine essentially from grapes, not a kit, so there is a
bit more work involved. But with Brehm grapes, you can definitely
make wine that will compare favorably with commercial reds up to, say,
$20 or $30 per bottle, at least. I won't say it's easy, but it is
possible. On the other hand, you can expect to invest anywhere from
$6 to $10 per bottle in raw materials, and it is nowhere near as "fool-
proof" as kits are, these days.

Sorry for the long post. I guess it really depends on what you are
used to drinking, and how much you are willing to spend on a kit (or
fresh grapes). For most of us, the answer is "yes", so I'd encourage
you not to give up quite yet.

Doug

Here in the frozen north grapes are non-existant.

But I have made some very fine whines using 5 gal. pails of fresh
juice that one of the biggest grocery chains stock.

I really like red's but can't drink very much, I dislike whites, but
have been making a Zinfandel Blush that is outstanding.

But I rack once more after it has cleared in secondary and bulk age
for as long as I can, usually not less than 4 mos. before bottling.
and I would expect reds to take longer, and whites less time.

cheers

"flat skunk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Here in the frozen north grapes are non-existant.
>
> But I have made some very fine whines using 5 gal. pails of fresh
> juice that one of the biggest grocery chains stock.
>
> I really like red's but can't drink very much, I dislike whites, but
> have been making a Zinfandel Blush that is outstanding.
>
> But I rack once more after it has cleared in secondary and bulk age
> for as long as I can, usually not less than 4 mos. before bottling.
> and I would expect reds to take longer, and whites less time.

What is the advantage to bulk aging?
Better still, what are the pros and cons?
Anybody?

Hi Scott ! the thread was old when i read it...i live in boston where
there's a relativly
large immigrant community: Italian, Spanish, Portugese & more. we all go to
the regional wholesale produce center ( all New England produce passes thru
the Chelsea Produce Terminal on its way to restauarnts & markets) in
september when california commercial varietals come in for us old schoolers
to pick over.

I'd always suspected that there was a local winegrape outlet; i was stunned
to learn that there were 4 seasonal, competitive dealers of cali varietals,
fresh juices, cali & some imported, and quality equipment.

I'd bet that if you investigated a little, you'd find that there's a
semi-local winegrape source in your regional produce center. I'd suggest
going into a small, sucessful looking local fruit & veg stand and simply
asking if they know where to get wine grapes, etc. If you're lucky, that
person maybe a HWM himself!

the link that i've enclosed is an example of one of the 4 families who
operate out of our produce center from september til thanksgiving-ish, 7
days a week, 5AM til sunset+ until the grapes/juices are sold out. i've got
no stake in this except that we've bought grapes from the for 8 years.
they're typical. HTH, regards, bobdrob

http://www.americanwinegrape.com/index.htm

http://www.americanwinegrape.com/everett.htm
"Scott Lindner" > wrote in message
. ..
>> Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine kits make pretty good
>> wine). It will be hard to produce a proper tasting Cabernet without using
>> whole grapes and a fermentation scheme that includes primary fermentation
>> in contact with the skins.
>
> Grrrr..... I asked this precise question before buying wine making
> equipment. I asked if I can make good red wines of the same quality I
> enjoy today. The answer was an overwhelming yes. It's not your fault,
> but long ago I feared that the places I asked (not on RCW) had a bunch of
> folks that don't really know what good wine is.
>
> I live in Colorado so getting good whole grapes is going to be
> challenging.
>
> Scott
>

William Frazier wrote:

>
> Scott Lindner wrote "I made my first wine not
> long ago and after three months in the bottle I
> don't like it very much.....I've been brewing
> beer for 14 years....We love
> cabernets....To us, the wine tastes
> cheap, a pinch fruity, and thin.....I used a
> Vintner's Reserve juice kit."
>
> Scott - I'm no fan of red wine kits (white wine
> kits make pretty good wine). It will be hard to
> produce a proper tasting Cabernet without using
> whole grapes and a fermentation scheme that
> includes primary fermentation in
> contact with the skins. With your experience
> brewing you know a lot of
> what you need to make good wine. You already
> know about the influence of
> yeast on the taste and mouthfeel of finished
> beer. Rather than use yeast that comes with the
> kit select a yeast that builds body (I like BM45
> for
> Cabernet).

Just curious, how does the BM45 build body?
I know that an increase in glycerol can have the
sensory effect of increased body. Is this how
BM45 does it?


> Also, read up on enological tannins
> such as Tan'Cor Grand Cru
> and Grap'Tan S. Addition of small amounts of
> these tannins during bulk
> aging can add body to thin wines. Plan on
> buying some Cabernet Sauvignon
> grapes for your next attempt. Include a 3 or 4
> day cold soak (at 40F)
> before starting fermentation. That step will
> extract a lot of what the
> grapes have to offer before fermentation. Good
> luck.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA

Paul E. Lehmann wrote "Just curious, how does the BM45 build body?
> I know that an increase in glycerol can have the
> sensory effect of increased body. Is this how
> BM45 does it?"

Paul - I don't pretend to know how BM45 does what it does. Here's a few
exerpts from the literature;
"BM45 produces high levels of polysaccharides, resulting in wines with
increased mouthfeel"
"BM45 has also been used with great success on Bordeaux varieties and helps
to minimize vegetative characters"
"BM45 has also been used on Chardonnay...to increase mouthfeel"

I can state from experience that Cabernet Franc and Sauvignon that I grow
here in the Kansas City area struggle to achieve full ripeness by the time I
have to pick them. In the past I have used RC212 , a Wyeast variety, and
Prise de Mousse. The last couple of years I've used BM45, along with
meticulous removal of all stem material, and the wines are much improved.
I've employeed other winemaking techniques but some of the improvement has
to be due to the yeast.

BTW - Chardonnay burst forth with first leaves today.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

Did you add oak and how much and what kind? Do you like Australian
Reds or Californian or French? If you like Australians you may want
to add more oak.

This will sound silly but you can concentrate this somewhat by
freezing. Fill up a pop bottle mostly full with wine and cap loosely
and freeze it; turn it upside down into a container and let it drip
until you have just ice left. If that tastes gawd awful try adding
some of it to one of your bottles in increments and see what happens.
I don't do kits so can't speak to them but it's one way you might get
more out of this.

3 months is very young on a red; mine are awful the first year. Time
helps reds.

I guess I'm going to have to look at Winepress US, I am an old dog...

Joe

> 3 months is very young on a red; mine are awful the first year. Time
> helps reds.
>
> I guess I'm going to have to look at Winepress US, I am an old dog...

I was wondering the same thing but followed instructions on the kit. Hmm..
I suppose that's about the same instructions you find in homebrew kits that
tell you to drink the beer two weeks after brewing. I like to cold
condition my ales for 6 months! So... I think that's another great point
you're making. Longer aging since these are reds, and maybe addition of
wood.

Regarding wood addition. Would it make sense to get oak chips and them into
a tertiary fermenter for long term aging?

Scott

On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 21:25:18 GMT, "William Frazier"
> wrote:


>BTW - Chardonnay burst forth with first leaves today.
>
>Bill Frazier
>Olathe, Kansas USA
>

That is disheartening, We still have three feet of snow on the ground
and have water mains nine feet down freezing...

A. J.
The Anchorage Fishwrapper and Litterbox Liner Press

It's amazing that water lines are buried 9 feet deep. Here in Kansas 3 feet
is sufficient to prevent freezing. Keep the faith A.J. Spring will come to
Alaska too. I fear that the Chardonnay will get an April fool this week.
Frost is predicted mid-week.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"A. J. Rawls" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 28 Mar 2007 21:25:18 GMT, "William Frazier"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>BTW - Chardonnay burst forth with first leaves today.
>>
>>Bill Frazier
>>Olathe, Kansas USA
>>
>
> That is disheartening, We still have three feet of snow on the ground
> and have water mains nine feet down freezing...
>
> A. J.
> The Anchorage Fishwrapper and Litterbox Liner Press

Everybody else is so I might as well put my 2 cents in as well. (I realize
2 cents is not what it use to be so ...)

I have never made a red wine kit that really impressed me. They just do not
meet my expectations and that includes the high end kits. Now I understand
that some kits now come with a pack of skins to be added. I have not tried
those and would like to hear others opinions of them.

On the otherhand, I never really liked white wine until I tried some of the
kits. Some of them are amazing. I make them on a regular basis now.

Then maybe should shold consider broadening your horizens a bit. Country
fruit wines are not at all like the fruit wines you buy in the store. Home
make to your specification of dryness can be amazing. For reds, berry wines
and cherry wines made dry will amaze you. Much the character of a light red
French wine rather than the heavy california wine. And then there are
meads. Home made mead is astounding and does not compare to the mead you
buy. I love a good dry blue berry or dewberry mead with just enough berries
to hint at their existance without overpowering the honey character.

An interesting side issue with making your own wines, when you get away from
kits, is that it will greatly broaden you understanding and appreciation of
the variance in wine.

Just a few thoughts.

Ray


"Scott Lindner" > wrote in message
. ..
>I made my first wine not long ago and after three months in the bottle I
>don't like it very much. My wife and I drink about one case of wine a
>month so we know what we like, but we can't quite place what's wrong with
>this wine. If it helps, I've been brewing beer for 14 years so it's only
>the wine part I'm a newbie with. We love cabernets. To us, the wine
>tastes cheap, a pinch fruity, and thin.
>
> I used a Vintner's Reserve juice kit. I followed the instructions
> verbatum with no changes, and let the wine age in the bottle for three
> months. I'm suspecting that either this juice kit isn't really all that
> great, or the wine needs a much longer aging time. I didn't add any
> additional preservatives and the juice kit made it clear that it doesn't
> come with enough for long term aging.
>
> Could there be other reasons other than aging that could cause us to not
> like the wine?
>
> Cheers,
> Scott
>