Fermenter question
 

I know that for 5 or 6 gallon batches glass carboys are recommended to
keep oxygen exposure limited. When planning larger batches though does
it make sense to use a fermenter like this one http://tinyurl.com/ynb3om
and not have as narrow a neck?

Please comment and let me know what you think.

Mark

Fermenter question
 

Mark wrote:

> I know that for 5 or 6 gallon batches glass
> carboys are recommended to
> keep oxygen exposure limited. When planning
> larger batches though does it make sense to use
> a fermenter like this one
> http://tinyurl.com/ynb3om
> and not have as narrow a neck?
>
> Please comment and let me know what you think.
>
> Mark

Are you talking about fermentation only or storage
after fermentation? For fermentation, you do not
need to worry about oxygen exposure. There are
many food grade HDPE containers suitable for
this. For long term storage, if you do not plan
on using a barrel, I would suggest stainless
steel with a floating lid that you can seal
tightly - or a collection of glass carboys.

Fermenter question
 

Paul E. Lehmann wrote:
> Mark wrote:
>
>> I know that for 5 or 6 gallon batches glass
>> carboys are recommended to
>> keep oxygen exposure limited. When planning
>> larger batches though does it make sense to use
>> a fermenter like this one
>> http://tinyurl.com/ynb3om
>> and not have as narrow a neck?
>>
>> Please comment and let me know what you think.
>>
>> Mark
>
> Are you talking about fermentation only or storage
> after fermentation? For fermentation, you do not
> need to worry about oxygen exposure. There are
> many food grade HDPE containers suitable for
> this. For long term storage, if you do not plan
> on using a barrel, I would suggest stainless
> steel with a floating lid that you can seal
> tightly - or a collection of glass carboys.

Thank you for your reply.
This is for fermentation only, possibly through clearing. For aging it
will go into oak, or directly to a bottle to age.

Mark

Fermenter question
 

Mark wrote:
> Paul E. Lehmann wrote:
>
>> Mark wrote:
>>
>>> I know that for 5 or 6 gallon batches glass
>>> carboys are recommended to
>>> keep oxygen exposure limited. When planning
>>> larger batches though does it make sense to use
>>> a fermenter like this one
>>> http://tinyurl.com/ynb3om
>>> and not have as narrow a neck?
>>>
>>> Please comment and let me know what you think.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>
>>
>> Are you talking about fermentation only or storage
>> after fermentation? For fermentation, you do not
>> need to worry about oxygen exposure. There are
>> many food grade HDPE containers suitable for
>> this. For long term storage, if you do not plan
>> on using a barrel, I would suggest stainless
>> steel with a floating lid that you can seal
>> tightly - or a collection of glass carboys.
>
>
> Thank you for your reply.
> This is for fermentation only, possibly through clearing. For aging it
> will go into oak, or directly to a bottle to age.
>
> Mark

Mark,
When you say fermentation only, you've said a mouthfull. Paul's answer
was shorthand... what he was referring to was primary fermentation.
Your answer indicated you are talking about both primary and secondary
fermentation. During primary fermentation, there is enough CO2 being
given off to protect the fermenting must. This typically covers down to
about 7-9 deg Brix, S.G. about 1.03 or so. Below that, the rate of CO2
being given off gets slow enough that it doesn't fully protect the must.

Once you reach this point, you are in secondary fermentation, and you
need to protect the slowly fermenting must by using either an airlocked
carboy or other closed container. The fermentor in the link you showed,
has such an airlock, so it will work through secondary fermentation.

When you do your first racking (clearing), then you will need to
transfer the wine to an airlocked carboy or other container in which you
can minimize the headspace (empty volume).

Gene

Fermenter question
 

gene wrote:
> Mark wrote:
>> Paul E. Lehmann wrote:
>>
>>> Mark wrote:
>>>
>>>> I know that for 5 or 6 gallon batches glass
>>>> carboys are recommended to
>>>> keep oxygen exposure limited. When planning
>>>> larger batches though does it make sense to use
>>>> a fermenter like this one
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/ynb3om
>>>> and not have as narrow a neck?
>>>>
>>>> Please comment and let me know what you think.
>>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>> Are you talking about fermentation only or storage
>>> after fermentation? For fermentation, you do not
>>> need to worry about oxygen exposure. There are
>>> many food grade HDPE containers suitable for
>>> this. For long term storage, if you do not plan
>>> on using a barrel, I would suggest stainless
>>> steel with a floating lid that you can seal
>>> tightly - or a collection of glass carboys.
>>
>>
>> Thank you for your reply.
>> This is for fermentation only, possibly through clearing. For aging
>> it will go into oak, or directly to a bottle to age.
>>
>> Mark
>
> Mark,
> When you say fermentation only, you've said a mouthfull. Paul's answer
> was shorthand... what he was referring to was primary fermentation. Your
> answer indicated you are talking about both primary and secondary
> fermentation. During primary fermentation, there is enough CO2 being
> given off to protect the fermenting must. This typically covers down to
> about 7-9 deg Brix, S.G. about 1.03 or so. Below that, the rate of CO2
> being given off gets slow enough that it doesn't fully protect the must.
>
> Once you reach this point, you are in secondary fermentation, and you
> need to protect the slowly fermenting must by using either an airlocked
> carboy or other closed container. The fermentor in the link you showed,
> has such an airlock, so it will work through secondary fermentation.
>
> When you do your first racking (clearing), then you will need to
> transfer the wine to an airlocked carboy or other container in which you
> can minimize the headspace (empty volume).
>
> Gene
Thanks Gene,

So the fermenter in the link is fine through secondary fermentation. If
I minimize space at the top will it also be OK for clearing, or should I
still go to multiple smaller Carboys. I do understand that glass would
be easier to tell when it is clear, but is the carboy shape necessary?

Mark

Fermenter question
 

> So the fermenter in the link is fine through secondary fermentation. If
> I minimize space at the top will it also be OK for clearing, or should I
> still go to multiple smaller Carboys. I do understand that glass would
> be easier to tell when it is clear, but is the carboy shape necessary?

No, the shape just lets you get air away from the wine by filling it
up.

There is another way to go here. Sounds like you want to do roughly 14
gallon batches. They sell 15 gallon glass 'demijohns' around here for
around $35 to $50 and they can have have a stainless spigot too. They
look like a fiasco, (that old wine bottle with wicker wrapped around
it). I'm sure it's got a lot of weight to it, but it seems to fit your
requirements. The new ones have a plastic covering instead of cane
like the really old ones had.

Fermenter question
 

i've got 4 of the units that we used for bulk aging w/stavin beans & it did
the job. they are problematic since you have a comparatively lge surface
area exposed when you need to top up & you cant see into them to check
settling. they are, however, compact, durable ( survived a moving van whilst
full!) and easy to clean since you can get yr face in the place to eyeball
things! TBS, we still perfer carboys for secondary ferms. HTH regards,
bobdrob
"Mark" > wrote in message
...
> gene wrote:
>> Mark wrote:
>>> Paul E. Lehmann wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mark wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I know that for 5 or 6 gallon batches glass
>>>>> carboys are recommended to
>>>>> keep oxygen exposure limited. When planning
>>>>> larger batches though does it make sense to use
>>>>> a fermenter like this one
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/ynb3om
>>>>> and not have as narrow a neck?
>>>>>
>>>>> Please comment and let me know what you think.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Are you talking about fermentation only or storage
>>>> after fermentation? For fermentation, you do not
>>>> need to worry about oxygen exposure. There are
>>>> many food grade HDPE containers suitable for
>>>> this. For long term storage, if you do not plan
>>>> on using a barrel, I would suggest stainless
>>>> steel with a floating lid that you can seal
>>>> tightly - or a collection of glass carboys.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you for your reply.
>>> This is for fermentation only, possibly through clearing. For aging it
>>> will go into oak, or directly to a bottle to age.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>
>> Mark,
>> When you say fermentation only, you've said a mouthfull. Paul's answer
>> was shorthand... what he was referring to was primary fermentation. Your
>> answer indicated you are talking about both primary and secondary
>> fermentation. During primary fermentation, there is enough CO2 being
>> given off to protect the fermenting must. This typically covers down to
>> about 7-9 deg Brix, S.G. about 1.03 or so. Below that, the rate of CO2
>> being given off gets slow enough that it doesn't fully protect the must.
>>
>> Once you reach this point, you are in secondary fermentation, and you
>> need to protect the slowly fermenting must by using either an airlocked
>> carboy or other closed container. The fermentor in the link you showed,
>> has such an airlock, so it will work through secondary fermentation.
>>
>> When you do your first racking (clearing), then you will need to transfer
>> the wine to an airlocked carboy or other container in which you can
>> minimize the headspace (empty volume).
>>
>> Gene
> Thanks Gene,
>
> So the fermenter in the link is fine through secondary fermentation. If I
> minimize space at the top will it also be OK for clearing, or should I
> still go to multiple smaller Carboys. I do understand that glass would be
> easier to tell when it is clear, but is the carboy shape necessary?
>
> Mark

Fermenter question
 

Mark wrote:

> gene wrote:
>
>> Mark wrote:
>>
>>> Paul E. Lehmann wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mark wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I know that for 5 or 6 gallon batches glass
>>>>> carboys are recommended to
>>>>> keep oxygen exposure limited. When planning
>>>>> larger batches though does it make sense to use
>>>>> a fermenter like this one
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/ynb3om
>>>>> and not have as narrow a neck?
>>>>>
>>>>> Please comment and let me know what you think.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Are you talking about fermentation only or storage
>>>> after fermentation? For fermentation, you do not
>>>> need to worry about oxygen exposure. There are
>>>> many food grade HDPE containers suitable for
>>>> this. For long term storage, if you do not plan
>>>> on using a barrel, I would suggest stainless
>>>> steel with a floating lid that you can seal
>>>> tightly - or a collection of glass carboys.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you for your reply.
>>> This is for fermentation only, possibly through clearing. For aging
>>> it will go into oak, or directly to a bottle to age.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>
>>
>> Mark,
>> When you say fermentation only, you've said a mouthfull. Paul's
>> answer was shorthand... what he was referring to was primary
>> fermentation. Your answer indicated you are talking about both primary
>> and secondary fermentation. During primary fermentation, there is
>> enough CO2 being given off to protect the fermenting must. This
>> typically covers down to about 7-9 deg Brix, S.G. about 1.03 or so.
>> Below that, the rate of CO2 being given off gets slow enough that it
>> doesn't fully protect the must.
>>
>> Once you reach this point, you are in secondary fermentation, and you
>> need to protect the slowly fermenting must by using either an
>> airlocked carboy or other closed container. The fermentor in the link
>> you showed, has such an airlock, so it will work through secondary
>> fermentation.
>>
>> When you do your first racking (clearing), then you will need to
>> transfer the wine to an airlocked carboy or other container in which
>> you can minimize the headspace (empty volume).
>>
>> Gene
>
> Thanks Gene,
>
> So the fermenter in the link is fine through secondary fermentation. If
> I minimize space at the top will it also be OK for clearing, or should I
> still go to multiple smaller Carboys. I do understand that glass would
> be easier to tell when it is clear, but is the carboy shape necessary?
>
> Mark

I'd personally go into carboys or completely full stainless steel kegs
at the first clearing (racking off gross lees) step. The shape of the
carboys is ideal, the narrow neck is quite an advantage for minimizing
headspace.... and you want to keep that to a minimum to not use up your
sulfite oxidation protection. That is, unless your goal is to make
sherry, lolol.

Being able to see the wine through the container is also an advantage if
you want to know how soon is the soonest you should rack the wine. I've
done it both ways, SS beer kegs and carboys... the beer kegs work fine,
too, but you have to guess about when the wine is ready to rack, so you
can't be in a hurry to get the wine to bottles (not being in a hurry is
a good thing, gives the wine time to mature).
After a couple of times, you get to know the 'rule of thumb' timing for
between racking for each type of wine you are making. Or you can go by
calendar... second racking in late December or early January, just in
time to get started with cold stabilization.

BTW, some of us like to leave some of our wines on the fine lees awhile,
called sur lies aging. It does change the flavor of the wine, so
depending on the style of wine you are making, you choose whether to do
sur lies or not.

Gene

Fermenter question
 

gene wrote:

> Mark wrote:
>> Paul E. Lehmann wrote:
>>
>>> Mark wrote:
>>>
>>>> I know that for 5 or 6 gallon batches glass
>>>> carboys are recommended to
>>>> keep oxygen exposure limited. When planning
>>>> larger batches though does it make sense to
>>>> use a fermenter like this one
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/ynb3om
>>>> and not have as narrow a neck?
>>>>
>>>> Please comment and let me know what you
>>>> think.
>>>>
>>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>> Are you talking about fermentation only or
>>> storage
>>> after fermentation? For fermentation, you do
>>> not
>>> need to worry about oxygen exposure. There
>>> are many food grade HDPE containers suitable
>>> for
>>> this. For long term storage, if you do not
>>> plan on using a barrel, I would suggest
>>> stainless steel with a floating lid that you
>>> can seal tightly - or a collection of glass
>>> carboys.
>>
>>
>> Thank you for your reply.
>> This is for fermentation only, possibly through
>> clearing. For aging it will go into oak, or
>> directly to a bottle to age.
>>
>> Mark
>
> Mark,
> When you say fermentation only, you've said a
> mouthfull. Paul's answer was shorthand... what
> he was referring to was primary fermentation.
> Your answer indicated you are talking about both
> primary and secondary
> fermentation. During primary fermentation,
> there is enough CO2 being
> given off to protect the fermenting must. This
> typically covers down to
> about 7-9 deg Brix, S.G. about 1.03 or so.
> Below that, the rate of CO2 being given off gets
> slow enough that it doesn't fully protect the
> must.
>
> Once you reach this point, you are in secondary
> fermentation, and you need to protect the slowly
> fermenting must by using either an airlocked
> carboy or other closed container. The fermentor
> in the link you showed, has such an airlock, so
> it will work through secondary fermentation.
>
> When you do your first racking (clearing), then
> you will need to transfer the wine to an
> airlocked carboy or other container in which you
> can minimize the headspace (empty volume).
>
> Gene

Good point. Most of the time I go into glass at a
SG of less than 1.0 and it has not seemed to
matter but I guess it could if left long enough.
(I make mostly reds whites would be more
sensitive) If transferring while at a higher
SG, I would go to glass OR if I had the big
bucks, a stainless steel container with a
floating lid would be my choice. Failing that, a
container that had an opening for bung and
airlock and use of Argon or Nitrogen.

Fermenter question
 

"Mark" > wrote in message
...
> I know that for 5 or 6 gallon batches glass carboys are recommended to
> keep oxygen exposure limited. When planning larger batches though does
> it make sense to use a fermenter like this one http://tinyurl.com/ynb3om
> and not have as narrow a neck?
>
> Please comment and let me know what you think.
>
> Mark

I have been using 55 gal soft drink syrup barrels ($15 apiece), and I bought
a case of food grade plastic bags big enough to line the barrels. This has
worked very nicely , as you can put around 35 gals of must in the barrel,
twist the top around a 1" plastic hose and tie it and put the hose end in a
bucket of water and you have an airtight primary. There is room in the bag
for the cap to float, and while it is an extra nuisance opening it to punch
down etc, it isn't worse than any other system I've seen, and when you get
into the later stages of extended maceration where you want to keep it
airtight, I just put some argon in, take the hose out and tie it securely.
Over-all it makes for a nice clean system, and when I press, I just throw
the first bag away and put the wine in another plastic bag with some argon
and let it settle a couple weeks before putting it into a barrel. I have
done this with smaller bags in 15 gal barrels as well, and it seems to work
fine.

Fermenter question
 

Darwin Vander Stelt wrote:

> "Mark" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I know that for 5 or 6 gallon batches glass carboys are recommended to
>>keep oxygen exposure limited. When planning larger batches though does
>>it make sense to use a fermenter like this one http://tinyurl.com/ynb3om
>> and not have as narrow a neck?
>>
>>Please comment and let me know what you think.
>>
>>Mark
>
>
> I have been using 55 gal soft drink syrup barrels ($15 apiece), and I bought
> a case of food grade plastic bags big enough to line the barrels. This has
> worked very nicely , as you can put around 35 gals of must in the barrel,
> twist the top around a 1" plastic hose and tie it and put the hose end in a
> bucket of water and you have an airtight primary. There is room in the bag
> for the cap to float, and while it is an extra nuisance opening it to punch
> down etc, it isn't worse than any other system I've seen, and when you get
> into the later stages of extended maceration where you want to keep it
> airtight, I just put some argon in, take the hose out and tie it securely.
> Over-all it makes for a nice clean system, and when I press, I just throw
> the first bag away and put the wine in another plastic bag with some argon
> and let it settle a couple weeks before putting it into a barrel. I have
> done this with smaller bags in 15 gal barrels as well, and it seems to work
> fine.
>
>
Darwin,
Pretty darn elegant setup. Would pressing on the bag be sufficient to
immerse cap and keep it wet, instead of opening the bag and punch-down?
My guess is that for first two days, you'd want to open to give the
yeast enough oxygen during the growth phase, but after that, in the
anaerobic alcohol producing stage ..... This method could make for very
fruity wine style.

Now, if you want to make NZ style sauvignon blanc (reductive
fermentation limiting the yeast's access to oxygen), you'd never open
the bag till you transfer to secondary.

And have you used this method with high-foaming yeasts? If so, how full
do you fill your bags in order to leave room for the foaming? More or
less than for open top fermentor?

Gene

Fermenter question
 

"gene" > wrote in message
. net...
> Darwin Vander Stelt wrote:
>
> > "Mark" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>I know that for 5 or 6 gallon batches glass carboys are recommended to
> >>keep oxygen exposure limited. When planning larger batches though does
> >>it make sense to use a fermenter like this one http://tinyurl.com/ynb3om
> >> and not have as narrow a neck?
> >>
> >>Please comment and let me know what you think.
> >>
> >>Mark
> >
> >
> > I have been using 55 gal soft drink syrup barrels ($15 apiece), and I
bought
> > a case of food grade plastic bags big enough to line the barrels. This
has
> > worked very nicely , as you can put around 35 gals of must in the
barrel,
> > twist the top around a 1" plastic hose and tie it and put the hose end
in a
> > bucket of water and you have an airtight primary. There is room in the
bag
> > for the cap to float, and while it is an extra nuisance opening it to
punch
> > down etc, it isn't worse than any other system I've seen, and when you
get
> > into the later stages of extended maceration where you want to keep it
> > airtight, I just put some argon in, take the hose out and tie it
securely.
> > Over-all it makes for a nice clean system, and when I press, I just
throw
> > the first bag away and put the wine in another plastic bag with some
argon
> > and let it settle a couple weeks before putting it into a barrel. I have
> > done this with smaller bags in 15 gal barrels as well, and it seems to
work
> > fine.
> >
> >
> Darwin,
> Pretty darn elegant setup. Would pressing on the bag be sufficient to
> immerse cap and keep it wet, instead of opening the bag and punch-down?
> My guess is that for first two days, you'd want to open to give the
> yeast enough oxygen during the growth phase, but after that, in the
> anaerobic alcohol producing stage ..... This method could make for very
> fruity wine style.
>
> Now, if you want to make NZ style sauvignon blanc (reductive
> fermentation limiting the yeast's access to oxygen), you'd never open
> the bag till you transfer to secondary.
>
> And have you used this method with high-foaming yeasts? If so, how full
> do you fill your bags in order to leave room for the foaming? More or
> less than for open top fermentor?
>
> Gene
As you get into the extended maceration, I just slosh it around and punch
the bag down.You don't have to open them. The bags (6 mil) probably hold 60
or 70 gals, and fold down over the sides of the barrel. I do like to scoop
the cap off and dump it into a new barrel every day for about the first 2 or
3 days after you get a good cap, and pour the wine over it, also try to
dump most of the seeds off the bottom of the barrel (delestage?). If you
have one empty barrel you only have to put in one new bag each day, as you
can dump the wine and cap from one barrel into a new one with new bag, and
dump the seeds in the wheelbarrow, then put the liner back in and use it for
the next barrel. After 3 days of that most of the seeds are gone and I
start keeping it closed pretty tight. (I use 3 plastic barrels to eventually
fill 2- 30 gal oak barrels with a cab sauv, cab franc, merlot mixture, and
one 15 gal oak barrel with pinot noir, plus 5 gallons of pinot for topping
off wine . I fill them about 3/4 full of must, the cap comes right to the
top. ( having a big bag loosly tied sort of keeps it off the garage floor
too). After pressing and settling thats about 30 gals.). I macerate for
about 40 days (or whenever I get around to pressing it which was 6 weeks
this year) and this system is about as forgiving as it gets. I had the bags
closed tight (I think a little gas escapes, as you can tell if the bags puff
up they're maybe too tight) with argon in for about the last month, and just
punched it down when I got around to it. And yes, when I put it into the
barrel after a couple months in the bag it was a real fruit bomb. I'm
extremely pleased with this system because I am one of the more
procrastinating type winemakers and this system seems not to punish neglect
(too much).
I got a case of 100 bags for 115 bucks or so, will last me at least 10
years. My next purchase will be for a case in 20 gal size for whites.

Fermenter question
 

Where do you get your bags?



Darwin Vander Stelt wrote:
> "gene" > wrote in message
> . net...
> > Darwin Vander Stelt wrote:
> >
> > > "Mark" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > >>I know that for 5 or 6 gallon batches glass carboys are recommended to
> > >>keep oxygen exposure limited. When planning larger batches though does
> > >>it make sense to use a fermenter like this one http://tinyurl.com/ynb3om
> > >> and not have as narrow a neck?
> > >>
> > >>Please comment and let me know what you think.
> > >>
> > >>Mark
> > >
> > >
> > > I have been using 55 gal soft drink syrup barrels ($15 apiece), and I
> bought
> > > a case of food grade plastic bags big enough to line the barrels. This
> has
> > > worked very nicely , as you can put around 35 gals of must in the
> barrel,
> > > twist the top around a 1" plastic hose and tie it and put the hose end
> in a
> > > bucket of water and you have an airtight primary. There is room in the
> bag
> > > for the cap to float, and while it is an extra nuisance opening it to
> punch
> > > down etc, it isn't worse than any other system I've seen, and when you
> get
> > > into the later stages of extended maceration where you want to keep it
> > > airtight, I just put some argon in, take the hose out and tie it
> securely.
> > > Over-all it makes for a nice clean system, and when I press, I just
> throw
> > > the first bag away and put the wine in another plastic bag with some
> argon
> > > and let it settle a couple weeks before putting it into a barrel. I have
> > > done this with smaller bags in 15 gal barrels as well, and it seems to
> work
> > > fine.
> > >
> > >
> > Darwin,
> > Pretty darn elegant setup. Would pressing on the bag be sufficient to
> > immerse cap and keep it wet, instead of opening the bag and punch-down?
> > My guess is that for first two days, you'd want to open to give the
> > yeast enough oxygen during the growth phase, but after that, in the
> > anaerobic alcohol producing stage ..... This method could make for very
> > fruity wine style.
> >
> > Now, if you want to make NZ style sauvignon blanc (reductive
> > fermentation limiting the yeast's access to oxygen), you'd never open
> > the bag till you transfer to secondary.
> >
> > And have you used this method with high-foaming yeasts? If so, how full
> > do you fill your bags in order to leave room for the foaming? More or
> > less than for open top fermentor?
> >
> > Gene
> As you get into the extended maceration, I just slosh it around and punch
> the bag down.You don't have to open them. The bags (6 mil) probably hold 60
> or 70 gals, and fold down over the sides of the barrel. I do like to scoop
> the cap off and dump it into a new barrel every day for about the first 2 or
> 3 days after you get a good cap, and pour the wine over it, also try to
> dump most of the seeds off the bottom of the barrel (delestage?). If you
> have one empty barrel you only have to put in one new bag each day, as you
> can dump the wine and cap from one barrel into a new one with new bag, and
> dump the seeds in the wheelbarrow, then put the liner back in and use it for
> the next barrel. After 3 days of that most of the seeds are gone and I
> start keeping it closed pretty tight. (I use 3 plastic barrels to eventually
> fill 2- 30 gal oak barrels with a cab sauv, cab franc, merlot mixture, and
> one 15 gal oak barrel with pinot noir, plus 5 gallons of pinot for topping
> off wine . I fill them about 3/4 full of must, the cap comes right to the
> top. ( having a big bag loosly tied sort of keeps it off the garage floor
> too). After pressing and settling thats about 30 gals.). I macerate for
> about 40 days (or whenever I get around to pressing it which was 6 weeks
> this year) and this system is about as forgiving as it gets. I had the bags
> closed tight (I think a little gas escapes, as you can tell if the bags puff
> up they're maybe too tight) with argon in for about the last month, and just
> punched it down when I got around to it. And yes, when I put it into the
> barrel after a couple months in the bag it was a real fruit bomb. I'm
> extremely pleased with this system because I am one of the more
> procrastinating type winemakers and this system seems not to punish neglect
> (too much).
> I got a case of 100 bags for 115 bucks or so, will last me at least 10
> years. My next purchase will be for a case in 20 gal size for whites.

Fermenter question
 

I believe Uline but can't remember. Google on "food grade plastic bags" and
you will get lots of hits. There were several sources, and a jillion sizes.
The food grade types are usually 4 or 6 mil, a whole different category from
garbage bags etc. Mine are not barrel liners per se, as they don't have the
extra fold. Those are more expensive, but if you oversize the flat bags they
seem to work fine. Mine are probably 26 x 48 x 6 mil, cost $105 with
shipping for case of 100.
> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Where do you get your bags?
>
>
>
> Darwin Vander Stelt wrote:
> > "gene" > wrote in message
> > . net...
> > > Darwin Vander Stelt wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Mark" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > >>I know that for 5 or 6 gallon batches glass carboys are recommended
to
> > > >>keep oxygen exposure limited. When planning larger batches though
does
> > > >>it make sense to use a fermenter like this one
http://tinyurl.com/ynb3om
> > > >> and not have as narrow a neck?
> > > >>
> > > >>Please comment and let me know what you think.
> > > >>
> > > >>Mark
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I have been using 55 gal soft drink syrup barrels ($15 apiece), and
I
> > bought
> > > > a case of food grade plastic bags big enough to line the barrels.
This
> > has
> > > > worked very nicely , as you can put around 35 gals of must in the
> > barrel,
> > > > twist the top around a 1" plastic hose and tie it and put the hose
end
> > in a
> > > > bucket of water and you have an airtight primary. There is room in
the
> > bag
> > > > for the cap to float, and while it is an extra nuisance opening it
to
> > punch
> > > > down etc, it isn't worse than any other system I've seen, and when
you
> > get
> > > > into the later stages of extended maceration where you want to keep
it
> > > > airtight, I just put some argon in, take the hose out and tie it
> > securely.
> > > > Over-all it makes for a nice clean system, and when I press, I just
> > throw
> > > > the first bag away and put the wine in another plastic bag with
some
> > argon
> > > > and let it settle a couple weeks before putting it into a barrel. I
have
> > > > done this with smaller bags in 15 gal barrels as well, and it seems
to
> > work
> > > > fine.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Darwin,
> > > Pretty darn elegant setup. Would pressing on the bag be sufficient to
> > > immerse cap and keep it wet, instead of opening the bag and
punch-down?
> > > My guess is that for first two days, you'd want to open to give the
> > > yeast enough oxygen during the growth phase, but after that, in the
> > > anaerobic alcohol producing stage ..... This method could make for
very
> > > fruity wine style.
> > >
> > > Now, if you want to make NZ style sauvignon blanc (reductive
> > > fermentation limiting the yeast's access to oxygen), you'd never open
> > > the bag till you transfer to secondary.
> > >
> > > And have you used this method with high-foaming yeasts? If so, how
full
> > > do you fill your bags in order to leave room for the foaming? More or
> > > less than for open top fermentor?
> > >
> > > Gene
> > As you get into the extended maceration, I just slosh it around and
punch
> > the bag down.You don't have to open them. The bags (6 mil) probably
hold 60
> > or 70 gals, and fold down over the sides of the barrel. I do like to
scoop
> > the cap off and dump it into a new barrel every day for about the first
2 or
> > 3 days after you get a good cap, and pour the wine over it, also try to
> > dump most of the seeds off the bottom of the barrel (delestage?). If you
> > have one empty barrel you only have to put in one new bag each day, as
you
> > can dump the wine and cap from one barrel into a new one with new bag,
and
> > dump the seeds in the wheelbarrow, then put the liner back in and use it
for
> > the next barrel. After 3 days of that most of the seeds are gone and I
> > start keeping it closed pretty tight. (I use 3 plastic barrels to
eventually
> > fill 2- 30 gal oak barrels with a cab sauv, cab franc, merlot mixture,
and
> > one 15 gal oak barrel with pinot noir, plus 5 gallons of pinot for
topping
> > off wine . I fill them about 3/4 full of must, the cap comes right to
the
> > top. ( having a big bag loosly tied sort of keeps it off the garage
floor
> > too). After pressing and settling thats about 30 gals.). I macerate for
> > about 40 days (or whenever I get around to pressing it which was 6 weeks
> > this year) and this system is about as forgiving as it gets. I had the
bags
> > closed tight (I think a little gas escapes, as you can tell if the bags
puff
> > up they're maybe too tight) with argon in for about the last month, and
just
> > punched it down when I got around to it. And yes, when I put it into the
> > barrel after a couple months in the bag it was a real fruit bomb. I'm
> > extremely pleased with this system because I am one of the more
> > procrastinating type winemakers and this system seems not to punish
neglect
> > (too much).
> > I got a case of 100 bags for 115 bucks or so, will last me at least 10
> > years. My next purchase will be for a case in 20 gal size for whites.
>

Fermenter question
 

oops . .probably 34 x 48. The circumference of a barrel is 3.14 x's the
diameter, and the flat bag circumference is 2 x's the width. Make it a
little big.
"Darwin Vander Stelt" > wrote in message
...
> I believe Uline but can't remember. Google on "food grade plastic bags"
and
> you will get lots of hits. There were several sources, and a jillion
sizes.
> The food grade types are usually 4 or 6 mil, a whole different category
from
> garbage bags etc. Mine are not barrel liners per se, as they don't have
the
> extra fold. Those are more expensive, but if you oversize the flat bags
they
> seem to work fine. Mine are probably 26 x 48 x 6 mil, cost $105 with
> shipping for case of 100.
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Where do you get your bags?
> >
> >
> >
> > Darwin Vander Stelt wrote:
> > > "gene" > wrote in message
> > > . net...
> > > > Darwin Vander Stelt wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > "Mark" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > >>I know that for 5 or 6 gallon batches glass carboys are
recommended
> to
> > > > >>keep oxygen exposure limited. When planning larger batches though
> does
> > > > >>it make sense to use a fermenter like this one
> http://tinyurl.com/ynb3om
> > > > >> and not have as narrow a neck?
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Please comment and let me know what you think.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Mark
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I have been using 55 gal soft drink syrup barrels ($15 apiece),
and
> I
> > > bought
> > > > > a case of food grade plastic bags big enough to line the barrels.
> This
> > > has
> > > > > worked very nicely , as you can put around 35 gals of must in the
> > > barrel,
> > > > > twist the top around a 1" plastic hose and tie it and put the hose
> end
> > > in a
> > > > > bucket of water and you have an airtight primary. There is room in
> the
> > > bag
> > > > > for the cap to float, and while it is an extra nuisance opening it
> to
> > > punch
> > > > > down etc, it isn't worse than any other system I've seen, and when
> you
> > > get
> > > > > into the later stages of extended maceration where you want to
keep
> it
> > > > > airtight, I just put some argon in, take the hose out and tie it
> > > securely.
> > > > > Over-all it makes for a nice clean system, and when I press, I
just
> > > throw
> > > > > the first bag away and put the wine in another plastic bag with
> some
> > > argon
> > > > > and let it settle a couple weeks before putting it into a barrel.
I
> have
> > > > > done this with smaller bags in 15 gal barrels as well, and it
seems
> to
> > > work
> > > > > fine.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Darwin,
> > > > Pretty darn elegant setup. Would pressing on the bag be sufficient
to
> > > > immerse cap and keep it wet, instead of opening the bag and
> punch-down?
> > > > My guess is that for first two days, you'd want to open to give
the
> > > > yeast enough oxygen during the growth phase, but after that, in the
> > > > anaerobic alcohol producing stage ..... This method could make for
> very
> > > > fruity wine style.
> > > >
> > > > Now, if you want to make NZ style sauvignon blanc (reductive
> > > > fermentation limiting the yeast's access to oxygen), you'd never
open
> > > > the bag till you transfer to secondary.
> > > >
> > > > And have you used this method with high-foaming yeasts? If so, how
> full
> > > > do you fill your bags in order to leave room for the foaming? More
or
> > > > less than for open top fermentor?
> > > >
> > > > Gene
> > > As you get into the extended maceration, I just slosh it around and
> punch
> > > the bag down.You don't have to open them. The bags (6 mil) probably
> hold 60
> > > or 70 gals, and fold down over the sides of the barrel. I do like to
> scoop
> > > the cap off and dump it into a new barrel every day for about the
first
> 2 or
> > > 3 days after you get a good cap, and pour the wine over it, also try
to
> > > dump most of the seeds off the bottom of the barrel (delestage?). If
you
> > > have one empty barrel you only have to put in one new bag each day, as
> you
> > > can dump the wine and cap from one barrel into a new one with new bag,
> and
> > > dump the seeds in the wheelbarrow, then put the liner back in and use
it
> for
> > > the next barrel. After 3 days of that most of the seeds are gone and
I
> > > start keeping it closed pretty tight. (I use 3 plastic barrels to
> eventually
> > > fill 2- 30 gal oak barrels with a cab sauv, cab franc, merlot mixture,
> and
> > > one 15 gal oak barrel with pinot noir, plus 5 gallons of pinot for
> topping
> > > off wine . I fill them about 3/4 full of must, the cap comes right to
> the
> > > top. ( having a big bag loosly tied sort of keeps it off the garage
> floor
> > > too). After pressing and settling thats about 30 gals.). I macerate
for
> > > about 40 days (or whenever I get around to pressing it which was 6
weeks
> > > this year) and this system is about as forgiving as it gets. I had the
> bags
> > > closed tight (I think a little gas escapes, as you can tell if the
bags
> puff
> > > up they're maybe too tight) with argon in for about the last month,
and
> just
> > > punched it down when I got around to it. And yes, when I put it into
the
> > > barrel after a couple months in the bag it was a real fruit bomb. I'm
> > > extremely pleased with this system because I am one of the more
> > > procrastinating type winemakers and this system seems not to punish
> neglect
> > > (too much).
> > > I got a case of 100 bags for 115 bucks or so, will last me at least 10
> > > years. My next purchase will be for a case in 20 gal size for whites.
> >
>
>