Acid addition......
 

Crushed my grapes and tested the acid 4 times. I got an acid level of
0.30 TA three times out of the four. Which means I need to raise my
acid by 0.40. I have about 11 US gallons....or 42 liters. My
calculations say I need to add 158 grams of Tataric acid to do the
trick. Am I anywhere near correct on this. I've never had to add this
much acid before. The CV grapes seem very low on acid. The Brix is 24.
The acid kit solutions are a year old. Should I get new solutions and
retry? I just pitched yeast a couple hours ago.

Acid addition......
 

I calculated it using "WineCalc" I downloaded from this web site
http://www.geocities.com/mipeman/ It is a good program and from my
calculations I got 16.7 gram of tartaric acid, 158 grams of Tataric acid
seems quite high.

Walter


--
"The speed of light is faster than the speed of sound. This explains why
some people appear to be bright until they open their mouth."

Acid addition......
 

Walter Venables wrote:
> I calculated it using "WineCalc" I downloaded from this web site
> http://www.geocities.com/mipeman/ It is a good program and from my
> calculations I got 16.7 gram of tartaric acid, 158 grams of Tataric acid
> seems quite high.

.....then that would be about 3 tsp. for 11US gallons. That seems very
low.

Acid addition......
 

Walter Venables wrote:
> I calculated it using "WineCalc" I downloaded from this web site
> http://www.geocities.com/mipeman/ It is a good program and from my
> calculations I got 16.7 gram of tartaric acid, 158 grams of Tataric acid
> seems quite high.

.....actually , your decimal point needs to be moved to the right by one
.....167.2 grams according to this page
http://www.geocities.com/NapaValley/...to%2 0wine%22

I can't use the wine calculator as I'm a mac user.

Acid addition......
 

andyjone - My first question would be what kind of grapes are these and do
you really want the starting TA to be 0.70%.
If you're sure you want to raise acid this much here's what I think will be
required.

You have 11 gallons of crushed grapes. I believe this will contain about
7.4 gallons of juice which is the same as 28009 ml. At 0.3%TA the juice
contains 84grams acid. At 0.7%TA the juice will contain 196grams acid. So,
you will have to add 112grams acid. But, if these were my grapes I would
add portions of the acid, each dissolved in water, and stir the must like
crazy. I would have my pH meter in the must as I did this and would be very
careful not to let pH drop too low. Do these additions slow taking time
between additions so you can be sure to don't let pH drop too low.

Finally, I would have done the acid additions before adding anything to the
grapes, especially the yeast.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Crushed my grapes and tested the acid 4 times. I got an acid level of
> 0.30 TA three times out of the four. Which means I need to raise my
> acid by 0.40. I have about 11 US gallons....or 42 liters. My
> calculations say I need to add 158 grams of Tataric acid to do the
> trick. Am I anywhere near correct on this. I've never had to add this
> much acid before. The CV grapes seem very low on acid. The Brix is 24.
> The acid kit solutions are a year old. Should I get new solutions and
> retry? I just pitched yeast a couple hours ago.
>

Acid addition......
 

wrote:

> The acid kit solutions are a year old. Should I get new solutions and
> retry? I just pitched yeast a couple hours ago.

NaOH solution won't last that long. Either get new NaOH (easy way) or
titrate your NaOH solution against HCl to determine its actual
concentration.

Acid addition......
 

Thanks for the advice Bill. I'm always prone to at least one mistake
during the whole procedure. First though I think your estimation of
the amount of juice in the must might be low. These are CV grapes, a
primary blend of Zin,Cab. Sauv., and Sangiovese....4 lugs worth in all.
A lug generally gives me 10 750ml bottles of finished wine, with a
loss of 10-15% during the process. This would be about 8.75 US gallons.
However, the acid level seems off to me. I think I will get new
solutions and retest before I add anything at all. One disadvantage is
my lack of a PH meter but thats another story. And if additions are to
be made they will surely be made in steps and slowly.


William Frazier wrote:
> andyjone - My first question would be what kind of grapes are these and do
> you really want the starting TA to be 0.70%.
> If you're sure you want to raise acid this much here's what I think will be
> required.
>
> You have 11 gallons of crushed grapes. I believe this will contain about
> 7.4 gallons of juice which is the same as 28009 ml. At 0.3%TA the juice
> contains 84grams acid. At 0.7%TA the juice will contain 196grams acid. So,
> you will have to add 112grams acid. But, if these were my grapes I would
> add portions of the acid, each dissolved in water, and stir the must like
> crazy. I would have my pH meter in the must as I did this and would be very
> careful not to let pH drop too low. Do these additions slow taking time
> between additions so you can be sure to don't let pH drop too low.
>
> Finally, I would have done the acid additions before adding anything to the
> grapes, especially the yeast.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA

Acid addition......
 

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>I think your estimation of
> the amount of juice in the must might be low. These are CV grapes, a
> primary blend of Zin,Cab. Sauv., and Sangiovese....4 lugs worth in all.
> A lug generally gives me 10 750ml bottles of finished wine, with a
> loss of 10-15% during the process. This would be about 8.75 US gallons.

Those grapes are jucier than I grow here in Kansas. My standard estimate
for juice is 2/3 the volume of must after stems have been removed. It's
just a figure I use and it's sometimes low or high.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

Acid addition......
 

I appreciate the input from this group. I'm going to get a fresh acid
kit as I said and will post the results. Winemaking is very much a
learn as you go experience is it not? On a personal front.... I do not
know any wine makers beside myself. My only advisors are in cyberland ,
so I do a cherish your input.....andy j.


William Frazier wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >I think your estimation of
> > the amount of juice in the must might be low. These are CV grapes, a
> > primary blend of Zin,Cab. Sauv., and Sangiovese....4 lugs worth in all.
> > A lug generally gives me 10 750ml bottles of finished wine, with a
> > loss of 10-15% during the process. This would be about 8.75 US gallons.
>
> Those grapes are jucier than I grow here in Kansas. My standard estimate
> for juice is 2/3 the volume of must after stems have been removed. It's
> just a figure I use and it's sometimes low or high.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA

Acid addition......
 

William,

What do you consider too low for a starting Ph and why??

Bob


William Frazier wrote:
> andyjone - My first question would be what kind of grapes are these and do
> you really want the starting TA to be 0.70%.
> If you're sure you want to raise acid this much here's what I think will be
> required.
>
> You have 11 gallons of crushed grapes. I believe this will contain about
> 7.4 gallons of juice which is the same as 28009 ml. At 0.3%TA the juice
> contains 84grams acid. At 0.7%TA the juice will contain 196grams acid. So,
> you will have to add 112grams acid. But, if these were my grapes I would
> add portions of the acid, each dissolved in water, and stir the must like
> crazy. I would have my pH meter in the must as I did this and would be very
> careful not to let pH drop too low. Do these additions slow taking time
> between additions so you can be sure to don't let pH drop too low.
>
> Finally, I would have done the acid additions before adding anything to the
> grapes, especially the yeast.
>
> Bill Frazier
> Olathe, Kansas USA
>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Crushed my grapes and tested the acid 4 times. I got an acid level of
> > 0.30 TA three times out of the four. Which means I need to raise my
> > acid by 0.40. I have about 11 US gallons....or 42 liters. My
> > calculations say I need to add 158 grams of Tataric acid to do the
> > trick. Am I anywhere near correct on this. I've never had to add this
> > much acid before. The CV grapes seem very low on acid. The Brix is 24.
> > The acid kit solutions are a year old. Should I get new solutions and
> > retry? I just pitched yeast a couple hours ago.
> >

Acid addition......
 

Hi ..tested with fresh acid kit this morning ....results the same. TA
0.30%. Added 120grams of tartaric acid in 3 steps , checking acid each
tiime til I achieved 0.60%TA. I am attempting to get PH measured
properly at the chemistry dept. at the local university.

Acid addition......
 

wrote:
> Hi ..tested with fresh acid kit this morning ....results the same. TA
> 0.30%. Added 120grams of tartaric acid in 3 steps , checking acid each
> tiime til I achieved 0.60%TA. I am attempting to get PH measured
> properly at the chemistry dept. at the local university.

Just a note for future reference - if the sodium hydroxide were too old
and started losing power, your measurments would be _higher_ than the
real number and not lower. It's because the solution is weaker, and so
you'd need more of it to get to thecolour change point.

That said, I've got burned before by relying on the TA measurements to
adjust acid, so if you're getting strange numbers, either do a pH check
or use your tastebuds for a sanity check. Numbers do lie occasionally.

Pp

Acid addition......
 

I like the taste buds method for TA adjustment.

Another way to check your NaOH is to make a 'standard' solution of
tartaric acid. If you really think you have 0.3% TA, double check by
dissolving 0.3 gms Tartaric acid in 100 gms of water (100 ml) and
titrate that with your TA test kit.

I like to limit my 'per add' tartaric additions to 3.6 gms per gallon.
You can always add more the next day if you are still low. You can't
take it out except by cold stabilizing it to precipitate potassium
bitartrate.
The only time I would add tartaric acid to 0.7% TA in a red wine is when
the must has too high a pH (>3.7) and I'm using the Tartaric Acid to
shift the pH downward.

BTW, ripe (>25 degBrix)CV grapes often have TA in the 0.3-0.4% TA range.
The hot nights and days drop the acid pretty quickly as ripeness
approaches.

Gene


pp wrote:
> wrote:
>
>>Hi ..tested with fresh acid kit this morning ....results the same. TA
>>0.30%. Added 120grams of tartaric acid in 3 steps , checking acid each
>>tiime til I achieved 0.60%TA. I am attempting to get PH measured
>>properly at the chemistry dept. at the local university.
>
>
> Just a note for future reference - if the sodium hydroxide were too old
> and started losing power, your measurments would be _higher_ than the
> real number and not lower. It's because the solution is weaker, and so
> you'd need more of it to get to thecolour change point.
>
> That said, I've got burned before by relying on the TA measurements to
> adjust acid, so if you're getting strange numbers, either do a pH check
> or use your tastebuds for a sanity check. Numbers do lie occasionally.
>
> Pp
>

Acid addition......
 

gene wrote:
> I like the taste buds method for TA adjustment.

At this point in the game, with all the sugar etc, I can't be sure of
anything taste wise. I adjusted to 0.60TA , then ran a sample over to
ene Chemical Engineering Dept. at UNB and got a PH meter put in it. It
reads 3.51. So....3.6 TA and a PH reading of 3.51. How does that sound?

Acid addition......
 

Acid addition......
 

Andyj didn't respond saying what grapes he has. But, if these are red
grapes I would not like to see the pH below 3.3. If the pH is lower, and if
malo lactic fermentation is desired in a red wine, it may be difficult at a
lower pH. Malo lactic fermentation will increase pH by about 2.5 pH units.
A wine starting fermentation at 3.3 will have a pH of about 3.5 after malo
lactic fermentation. Then, when you cold stabilize the wine the pH will not
drift much lower or higher. If pH is much below 3.4 or above 3.6 before
cold conditioning pH may drift up or down and end up where you don't want
it.

If Andyj's grapes were white grapes I would like to see the pH no lower than
3.3 for the same reasons and I wouldn't be concerned if they were 3.4
assuming no malo lactic fermentation was planned.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> William,
>
> What do you consider too low for a starting Ph and why??
>
> Bob
>
>
> William Frazier wrote:
>> andyjone - My first question would be what kind of grapes are these and
>> do
>> you really want the starting TA to be 0.70%.
>> If you're sure you want to raise acid this much here's what I think will
>> be
>> required.
>>
>> You have 11 gallons of crushed grapes. I believe this will contain about
>> 7.4 gallons of juice which is the same as 28009 ml. At 0.3%TA the juice
>> contains 84grams acid. At 0.7%TA the juice will contain 196grams acid.
>> So,
>> you will have to add 112grams acid. But, if these were my grapes I would
>> add portions of the acid, each dissolved in water, and stir the must like
>> crazy. I would have my pH meter in the must as I did this and would be
>> very
>> careful not to let pH drop too low. Do these additions slow taking time
>> between additions so you can be sure to don't let pH drop too low.
>>
>> Finally, I would have done the acid additions before adding anything to
>> the
>> grapes, especially the yeast.
>>
>> Bill Frazier
>> Olathe, Kansas USA
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> > Crushed my grapes and tested the acid 4 times. I got an acid level of
>> > 0.30 TA three times out of the four. Which means I need to raise my
>> > acid by 0.40. I have about 11 US gallons....or 42 liters. My
>> > calculations say I need to add 158 grams of Tataric acid to do the
>> > trick. Am I anywhere near correct on this. I've never had to add this
>> > much acid before. The CV grapes seem very low on acid. The Brix is 24.
>> > The acid kit solutions are a year old. Should I get new solutions and
>> > retry? I just pitched yeast a couple hours ago.
>> >
>

Acid addition......
 

Bill ...as I stated earlier in an earlier post in this thread, the
grapes are a blend of Zin, Cab Sauv. and Sangiovese. Also I'll try to
avoid a MF as my PH is at 3.51 right now and not interested in it going
to 3.7.

Acid addition......
 

Hi Andyjone,
You sound good to go at this point, but I still don't get that initial
acid value. I get about the same yield as you; I guess at around 2.2
to 2.5 gallons (US) per 36 # lug.

I make wine from CV grapes and never saw it below 0.4% initially but
rarely see it higher than 0.5% either. TA can increase after
fermentation and usually does with CV grapes; I usually shoot for not
more than 0.55% TA initially because I don't like tartness in a
finished dry red and anything over 0.6% usually tastes tart to me. You
have good number now, I would let things be and if necessary cold
stabilize out a little acid. I never do ML on CV grapes either because
I just don't see it helping, the pH is usually marginal and the TA is
not too high to begin with.

I do as Bill said too, I calculate what I need and add half and retest.
Joe


wrote:
> Bill ...as I stated earlier in an earlier post in this thread, the
> grapes are a blend of Zin, Cab Sauv. and Sangiovese. Also I'll try to
> avoid a MF as my PH is at 3.51 right now and not interested in it going
> to 3.7.

Acid addition......
 

I know Andy...after I posted I looked back at your post and saw you were
working with red grapes. I have malo lactic bugs floating around in my
basement winery. So, it's pretty hard for me to avoid ML fermentation
whether I innoculate or not. I do add ML culture to my red wines and
Chardonnay but some whites I like sans ML fermentatiion. Lysozyme stops it
in it's tracks if you have any fear you can't avoid it otherwise. Your
blend sounds delicious and the pH is very good, although I wouldn't worry
about pH 3.7 in a red wine.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA
> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Bill ...as I stated earlier in an earlier post in this thread, the
> grapes are a blend of Zin, Cab Sauv. and Sangiovese. Also I'll try to
> avoid a MF as my PH is at 3.51 right now and not interested in it going
> to 3.7.
>

Acid addition......
 

Joe Sallustio wrote:
> Hi Andyjone,
> You sound good to go at this point, but I still don't get that initial
> acid value. I make wine from CV grapes and never saw it below 0.4% initially but
> rarely see it higher than 0.5% either.

I know what you mean Joe. It seemed unusually low to me. I did however
test a total of 6 times using 2 different kits. Then 4 more tests as I
added the acid in steps. I wonder if anyone else is seeing low TA
numbers from the CV this fall?

Acid addition......
 

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Joe Sallustio wrote:
> > Hi Andyjone,
> > You sound good to go at this point, but I still don't get that initial
> > acid value. I make wine from CV grapes and never saw it below 0.4%
initially but
> > rarely see it higher than 0.5% either.
>
> I know what you mean Joe. It seemed unusually low to me. I did however
> test a total of 6 times using 2 different kits. Then 4 more tests as I
> added the acid in steps. I wonder if anyone else is seeing low TA
> numbers from the CV this fall?
>

The only times I have seen such low TA values is when solid carbon dioxide
was put directly into must or juice. I think the local cooling produced by
the dry ice can cause an abnormal amount of potassium bitartrate
precipitation.

Lum

Acid addition......
 

Lum,
Just wanted to mention that your online book that I downloaded maybe 5 years
ago, sets in my make shift wine lab this time of year. Its in a 3 holed
binder with notes from previous wine making adventures and added pages from
comments from this newsgroup in the past. I've found it very useful over
the years to refresh my memory. I guess just wanted to thank you. It's
clear and easy to read. Great book. Thanks.. -Jim

"Lum Eisenman" > wrote in message
m...
>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > Joe Sallustio wrote:
> > > Hi Andyjone,
> > > You sound good to go at this point, but I still don't get that initial
> > > acid value. I make wine from CV grapes and never saw it below 0.4%
> initially but
> > > rarely see it higher than 0.5% either.
> >
> > I know what you mean Joe. It seemed unusually low to me. I did however
> > test a total of 6 times using 2 different kits. Then 4 more tests as I
> > added the acid in steps. I wonder if anyone else is seeing low TA
> > numbers from the CV this fall?
> >
>
> The only times I have seen such low TA values is when solid carbon dioxide
> was put directly into must or juice. I think the local cooling produced
by
> the dry ice can cause an abnormal amount of potassium bitartrate
> precipitation.
>
> Lum
>
>

Acid addition......
 

Jim,
Thank you for the kind words. They are much appreciated.
Lum

"Jim Hall" > wrote in message
news:9QmSg.1222$ef2.53@fed1read09...
> Lum,
> Just wanted to mention that your online book that I downloaded maybe 5
years
> ago, sets in my make shift wine lab this time of year. Its in a 3 holed
> binder with notes from previous wine making adventures and added pages
from
> comments from this newsgroup in the past. I've found it very useful over
> the years to refresh my memory. I guess just wanted to thank you. It's
> clear and easy to read. Great book. Thanks.. -Jim
>
> "Lum Eisenman" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> > >
> > > Joe Sallustio wrote:
> > > > Hi Andyjone,
> > > > You sound good to go at this point, but I still don't get that
initial
> > > > acid value. I make wine from CV grapes and never saw it below 0.4%
> > initially but
> > > > rarely see it higher than 0.5% either.
> > >
> > > I know what you mean Joe. It seemed unusually low to me. I did
however
> > > test a total of 6 times using 2 different kits. Then 4 more tests as I
> > > added the acid in steps. I wonder if anyone else is seeing low TA
> > > numbers from the CV this fall?
> > >
> >
> > The only times I have seen such low TA values is when solid carbon
dioxide
> > was put directly into must or juice. I think the local cooling produced
> by
> > the dry ice can cause an abnormal amount of potassium bitartrate
> > precipitation.
> >
> > Lum
> >
> >
>
>
>