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Default Something smells!

"enoavidh" wrote .......

>> Why should I patronize someone who *lies*?
>> Stealth marketers, like all other spammers, are lying.


to which "Mark Lipton" commented....

>
> Excellent point, De. Good to see you around these parts, BTW.
>


As the person who stirred up this hornets nest, this is my point.

I am not against honest, commercial posters using AFW, provided they are not
blatant advertising.

I am totally against bullshit posts, purporting to be enthusiastic comment,
but which in fact are made by persons with a vested interest, and are
designed to mislead.

If a person was fully upfront (Hi, my name is Fred and I have recently
started exporting our new label of Central Otago to the USA - keep a look
out for it - we think our SB & PN is something special etc etc) I hold this
to be an honest merchant.

OK - it is commercial, and I personally *may* gently remind the poster that
AFW was not commercial - but over the eight years I have frequented AFW, I
have seen a proliferation of posts, where, by their nature, the poster knows
implicitly that commercial posts are not tolerated, but by stealth,
advertise anyhow.

Now, I am not against any new contributor joining this ng, contrary to what
my friend Mr. Neidich says - I encourage any and all to join this society
of wine lovers.

Professor Lipton says that my initial judgment (in respect to this incident)
may not be Stealth Marketing.

I will reserve judgment - to me the proof will emerge one month from now -
when I recheck the Google Groups archive to see if either has made any
further contribution to this or any other forum. (OK I may have too much
time on my hands: sobeit - it is a shitty job but someone has to do it -
otherwise, the spammers win !!!!!

Anyone want to place a small wager??????

My bottle of NZ pinot against anything you'd like to counter (Please Note:
If your country / State does not allow the importation etc of wine, I will
consider cash in lieu!!!!!

--

st.helier


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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

Jose wrote:
>> For crying out loud, this person was not hurting you even if you are
>> correct. So let it alone. What is the big deal!

>
> The big deal is that if it =is= stealth marketing, then that undermines
> AFW (and the newsgroups) more than "underparticipation". And this does
> hurt us.


So does long threads arguing about it like this! Probably more so that
the original post.
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Professor wrote:
> The big deal is the wine seller is trying to trick the readers of this
> newsgroup. This kind of deception insults all of us. I suppose you welcome
> spam?


Just what was the trick? There was no link, no mention of any vendor,
nothing. Whats worse is the whining over nothing. Back to wine!
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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

I agree 100% with what you are suggesting here!

But we should not chase off posters from this site. Spam or contect can be
blocked for the commerial posters without playing the gotya game.

I for one am tired of it. It says more about us than them in my opinion.

"miles" > wrote in message
news:SjqJg.2062$AP2.1022@fed1read10...
> Jose wrote:
>>> For crying out loud, this person was not hurting you even if you are
>>> correct. So let it alone. What is the big deal!

>>
>> The big deal is that if it =is= stealth marketing, then that undermines
>> AFW (and the newsgroups) more than "underparticipation". And this does
>> hurt us.

>
> So does long threads arguing about it like this! Probably more so that
> the original post.



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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

Hi Dick,

It amazes me how some people on this list have no hesitation doing free
marketing for XYZ winery (through their recommendations, sharing of
knowledge, tasting notes, etc.), and yet should a member of XYZ winery
join on and share a few views, it is met with fierce resistance or
branded as "stealth marketing".

Anyone who joins AFW thinking they can squeeze a drop of business out
of it by blatantly advertising certainly hasn't done their research
(reviewing AFW archives), as they'd be quick to realize this list falls
flat when it comes honest business discussions about wine.

Even well-intentioned posts (not advertising, but discussions about the
industry, trends, events, etc) are met with suspicion. All I have to do
is look into the archives from a few recent threads I started up to see
the thruth of this.

For the record, I have no official affiliation with anyone in the wine
industry. A number of years ago, I was smart enough to register what is
now a very popular domain. And for that - certain people on AFW assume
I *must* be spamming, stealth marketing, etc., when I happen to post
something about the local industry. To that, I say, of *course* I'm
going to post things about things happening close to home. Local wines.
Local events. Just like the rest of you. Why? Because it's what I
happen to know about. Yes, I have a profound love for the wines of
France, Spain, Italy, etc. - but that is not my forte, so I tend not to
write about them.

St. Helier has his precious Central Otago. Ian writes about France. UC
loves his Italian wines (must admit UC, you really *do* have a ton of
knowledge and it's excellent that you take the time to share it with us
all!). The point is - we all discuss what we know about on AFW.

That AFW is a community-policed list is fine. However, what is not okay
is when members gang up and don't even grant a new member the chance to
make their case. They'd rather shut the person down and move on,
leaving behind a nice, archived trail in Google Groups (or Usenet, or
whatever you're using to read this) that documents a lengthy legacy of
****y rhetoric -- all of which, I might add, gives very few users, if
any, the desire to join AFW in the first place.

So it really is paradoxical, how certain AFW members continue
advertising their own local wineries to no end, but can't stand it when
someone actually in the business stops by to put in their own $.02.
It's almost as though these AFW members are fearful of someone "in the
trade" knowing more than they do?? -- so they must instead act from a
defensive corner of AFW and protect what little intellectual space they
have in which to flourish.

In any case, AFW would be well-served that, while (appropriate in)
reacting suspiciously towards obvious marketing campaigns, AFW should
also take a deep breath and a look in the mirror, realize it is
essentially already one big free marketing campaign (if not for
members, then for the wines AFW members are writing about), and
consider becoming more open to industry folk who are in the know, who
could actually bring some added depth to the list. You never know... we
might all learn something in the process. Just my own $.02. Certainly
not looking to start up another ****-storm here.

Thanks,

David



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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

"Dave" > wrote in news:1157058897.469121.264770@
74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com:

> Hi Dick,
>
> It amazes me how some people on this list have no hesitation doing

free
> marketing for XYZ winery (through their recommendations, sharing of
> knowledge, tasting notes, etc.), and yet should a member of XYZ winery
> join on and share a few views, it is met with fierce resistance or
> branded as "stealth marketing".
> >

It really isn't about being anti business, it is about being anti
stealth marketing. It has been an increasing technique in the past
months not just on this newsgroup but on several travel related ones
where I hang out to come in ask a question and then pop back in a
different guise and answer with a commercial. "Anyone know of a good
place? ..." or even better, "I just got a XYZ. Does anyone know of this
it really seems great!" The responded then extolls the product, both
posters often share the same computer. This is the behavior that is
being dissed here and rightfully.

Yes, we can and some do enjoy the anonymous nature of the net but a
little integrity goes a long way.

Do we allow professionals to roam our group? You mean other than Michael
Pronay, Emily (?) Joe R should count he plied the trade for a while, the
elsewhere mentioned Gan Eden and Ch. Burbank owners, we have had others
who worked in the hospitality and wine industries. It is not the
connection that rankles so much as the way one works the connection.


--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

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Default Anderson Valley Pinot Noir Recommendation?

[Don't forget, many people read newsgroups without posting to them, or
without posting often. And are welcome, it's public after all. The Central
Committee's preliminary vetting here would likely deepen of course, should
circumstance warrant.]

Anyway back to wine: Mark Lipton in
m :
>
> Two of my favorites from there are Navarro's Ancienne PN (available only
> directly from winery) and Lazy Creek's PN.


I second the suggestions of those wineries. Both do also other bottlings
including Lazy Creek's casual Pinot "red table wine" in what has been called
a European style. (More in past postings on this newsgroup.)

> Of course, Roederer Estate's sparkling wine is also made (in part) from PN
> ;-)


(That's not the half of it, but this may not be the place ...) Anyone
passing nearby should visit Roederer Estate anyway (it sort of surrounds
Lazy Creek geographically, BTW). RE has large facilities and a staffed
tasting room with a range of bottlings including pink sparklers of high or
complete Pinot content, apropos above. It's historically important to
California wine because although not, by far, the first premium
sparkling-wine producer, the firm's work since 1980 raised the standards of
California sparkling wines by example. (Again, in a European direction.)

--
"Elegance, Balance, Finesse." -- M. Salgues



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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

Dave I agree with your statement. I think that some in this group are way
to skeptical and myopic in their approach.

They killfile or threaten to killfile people when they cannot agree even to
disagree.

This group has changed greatly over the many years I have been here.




"Dave" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi Dick,
>
> It amazes me how some people on this list have no hesitation doing free
> marketing for XYZ winery (through their recommendations, sharing of
> knowledge, tasting notes, etc.), and yet should a member of XYZ winery
> join on and share a few views, it is met with fierce resistance or
> branded as "stealth marketing".
>
> Anyone who joins AFW thinking they can squeeze a drop of business out
> of it by blatantly advertising certainly hasn't done their research
> (reviewing AFW archives), as they'd be quick to realize this list falls
> flat when it comes honest business discussions about wine.
>
> Even well-intentioned posts (not advertising, but discussions about the
> industry, trends, events, etc) are met with suspicion. All I have to do
> is look into the archives from a few recent threads I started up to see
> the thruth of this.
>
> For the record, I have no official affiliation with anyone in the wine
> industry. A number of years ago, I was smart enough to register what is
> now a very popular domain. And for that - certain people on AFW assume
> I *must* be spamming, stealth marketing, etc., when I happen to post
> something about the local industry. To that, I say, of *course* I'm
> going to post things about things happening close to home. Local wines.
> Local events. Just like the rest of you. Why? Because it's what I
> happen to know about. Yes, I have a profound love for the wines of
> France, Spain, Italy, etc. - but that is not my forte, so I tend not to
> write about them.
>
> St. Helier has his precious Central Otago. Ian writes about France. UC
> loves his Italian wines (must admit UC, you really *do* have a ton of
> knowledge and it's excellent that you take the time to share it with us
> all!). The point is - we all discuss what we know about on AFW.
>
> That AFW is a community-policed list is fine. However, what is not okay
> is when members gang up and don't even grant a new member the chance to
> make their case. They'd rather shut the person down and move on,
> leaving behind a nice, archived trail in Google Groups (or Usenet, or
> whatever you're using to read this) that documents a lengthy legacy of
> ****y rhetoric -- all of which, I might add, gives very few users, if
> any, the desire to join AFW in the first place.
>
> So it really is paradoxical, how certain AFW members continue
> advertising their own local wineries to no end, but can't stand it when
> someone actually in the business stops by to put in their own $.02.
> It's almost as though these AFW members are fearful of someone "in the
> trade" knowing more than they do?? -- so they must instead act from a
> defensive corner of AFW and protect what little intellectual space they
> have in which to flourish.
>
> In any case, AFW would be well-served that, while (appropriate in)
> reacting suspiciously towards obvious marketing campaigns, AFW should
> also take a deep breath and a look in the mirror, realize it is
> essentially already one big free marketing campaign (if not for
> members, then for the wines AFW members are writing about), and
> consider becoming more open to industry folk who are in the know, who
> could actually bring some added depth to the list. You never know... we
> might all learn something in the process. Just my own $.02. Certainly
> not looking to start up another ****-storm here.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>



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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

Joseph,

Thank you for sharing these sentiments. Agreed. In the case of your
examples, 'stealth marketing' is the same as spam, and should be dealt
with as such. The danger in fighting against it too much, however, is
that it can add a sour taste to the receptiveness of AFW members, such
that they treat many (valid) business-oriented posts with similar
skepticism.

BigCAWine, the individual who started this thread, he posted two
additional times with follow-ups, and seems pretty legit to me -- in
any case, it seems there would be far easier ways to try and drive a
branding campaign than if this was truly a stealth approach.

Some people immediately concluded he was spamming - but then, that just
goes hand in hand with the "guilty until proven innocent" nature with
which the same people approach many members of this list. In the end,
it's 50 or so posts about a seemingly innocent topic. Quite a lot of
noise, arguing over if it's spam or not, if you ask me.

(I can already guess the retort from some people he 'Well! If he's
not a stealth marketer, then he obviously must be a troll for making us
all argue amongst ourselves over whether he's a spammer or not!')

If everyone just chilled out a bit, enjoyed a glass of their favorite
{fill in the blank} wine, and realized what wealth we all have being
able to collectively enjoy this subject across oceans and continents
with fellow friends, we'd probably all be a lot happier here, and would
probably turn AFW into such a friendly place that no spammer would ever
dare step foot inside.

Cheers,

David

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> It amazes me how some people on this list have no hesitation doing free
> marketing for XYZ winery (through their recommendations, sharing of
> knowledge, tasting notes, etc.), and yet should a member of XYZ winery
> join on and share a few views, it is met with fierce resistance or
> branded as "stealth marketing".


The difference is in who gains, primarily.

When we (of no affiliation) share knowledge and tasting notes about XYZ
winery, we do not stand to make money off of the altered behavior that
our posts may cause. Thus, the motivation for doing so is more likely
to be altruistic, and what we say is more likely to be unbiased. For
that reason, we place more trust in such posts. But those affiliated
with a winery would benefit financially, so what they say is not likely
to be unbiased. While their posts about (say) =how= to make wine would
be of great interest (after all, they are the experts), their posts
about (say) which wine to buy are more suspect. This is universally
true, and has nothing to do with wine. It is business.

Stealth posts attempt to use the trust we have placed in each other to
the advantage of the poster, for pecuniary gain. I resent that. We
should all stand up against that.

It is too bad that sometimes innocent posts end up looking like stealth
spam. That is the nature of things. But with stealth spam being such a
big problem (I've abandoned several newsgroups because they are
essentially destroyed by it, and I've also had to abandon several
mailboxes to spam too), it's important to ensure that what is shared
here is shared because we want to share, not because we want to make
money off of each other.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.


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Dave wrote:
> Hi Dick,
>
> It amazes me how some people on this list have no hesitation doing free
> marketing for XYZ winery (through their recommendations, sharing of
> knowledge, tasting notes, etc.), and yet should a member of XYZ winery
> join on and share a few views, it is met with fierce resistance or
> branded as "stealth marketing".


Dave, can you really be that naïve? What about conflict of interest? I
see this as no different from a film critic who is an employee of
Paramount Pictures -- would you consider their recommendations to be
ubiased? How can you be sure? Or, to use a more trenchant example, I
feel the same about this issue as I do about former oil company
executives formulating US energy policy. ;-)

>
> Anyone who joins AFW thinking they can squeeze a drop of business out
> of it by blatantly advertising certainly hasn't done their research
> (reviewing AFW archives), as they'd be quick to realize this list falls
> flat when it comes honest business discussions about wine.


Spammers are notorious for their lack of concern about such issues.
Typically, they try a "shotgun" approach to marketing: send the same (or
similar) message to 10,000 different newsgroups and see what takes. And
your phrase "honest business discussions" is a bit disingenuous: this is
a non-commercial newsgroup, so *no* business disucssions should be
conducted here.

>
> Even well-intentioned posts (not advertising, but discussions about the
> industry, trends, events, etc) are met with suspicion. All I have to do
> is look into the archives from a few recent threads I started up to see
> the thruth of this.


Sad but true. These are suspicious times, it seems. How to regain our
innocence? It's important to keep in mind, though, that in any open
forum like this, especially where we rely exclusively on the written
word, there are going to be arguments where tempers rise. It's
important to keep perspective and not overreact, even if you're at the
receiving end of an attack. Either that, or just walk away from that
thread.

>
> For the record, I have no official affiliation with anyone in the wine
> industry. A number of years ago, I was smart enough to register what is
> now a very popular domain. And for that - certain people on AFW assume
> I *must* be spamming, stealth marketing, etc., when I happen to post
> something about the local industry. To that, I say, of *course* I'm
> going to post things about things happening close to home. Local wines.
> Local events. Just like the rest of you. Why? Because it's what I
> happen to know about. Yes, I have a profound love for the wines of
> France, Spain, Italy, etc. - but that is not my forte, so I tend not to
> write about them.


And that's just fine. Hopefully, as people get to know you, there will
be less misunderstanding about your intentions. As I stated to you
earlier, I welcome any and all information about the wines of the
Pacific NW, even though I won't be back there for another 15 months or
so. And, if you happen to chime in on other topics, so much the better!

>
> St. Helier has his precious Central Otago. Ian writes about France. UC
> loves his Italian wines (must admit UC, you really *do* have a ton of
> knowledge and it's excellent that you take the time to share it with us
> all!). The point is - we all discuss what we know about on AFW.


Except for those who discuss what they don't know ;-)

>
> That AFW is a community-policed list is fine. However, what is not okay
> is when members gang up and don't even grant a new member the chance to
> make their case. They'd rather shut the person down and move on,
> leaving behind a nice, archived trail in Google Groups (or Usenet, or
> whatever you're using to read this) that documents a lengthy legacy of
> ****y rhetoric -- all of which, I might add, gives very few users, if
> any, the desire to join AFW in the first place.


Oh, come now, Dave: "gang up on" people? Huh? In your case, you
started a thread in which 3 posters to this group go into arguments with
you. This month, 64 non-first-time posters have posted to this group. 3
out of 64 hardly seems to qualify as ganging up to me. And that doesn't
take into account the two posters (Dick and Emery) who stuck up for you
in that thread. I agree that it was hardly a nice welcome for you, and
I do wish that the whole tone of the discussion had been more civil, but
alas I can't control the actions of others, and we are (supposedly) all
adults here.

> So it really is paradoxical, how certain AFW members continue
> advertising their own local wineries to no end, but can't stand it when
> someone actually in the business stops by to put in their own $.02.


What in the world are you talking about? Has anyone criticized you for
talking about Oregon wineries? And no one here is advertising using any
normal definition of the word.

> It's almost as though these AFW members are fearful of someone "in the
> trade" knowing more than they do?? -- so they must instead act from a
> defensive corner of AFW and protect what little intellectual space they
> have in which to flourish.


Oh, for crying out loud. As already mentioned, we have a couple of
winemakers, a wine critic and an importer who post regularly here. None
of them have complained of being ganged up on or hounded out of the
group. Why the persecution complex?

>
> In any case, AFW would be well-served that, while (appropriate in)
> reacting suspiciously towards obvious marketing campaigns, AFW should
> also take a deep breath and a look in the mirror, realize it is
> essentially already one big free marketing campaign (if not for
> members, then for the wines AFW members are writing about), and
> consider becoming more open to industry folk who are in the know, who
> could actually bring some added depth to the list. You never know... we
> might all learn something in the process. Just my own $.02. Certainly
> not looking to start up another ****-storm here.


I agree that it's always advisable to keep the discussions here as civil
as possible. That also means avoiding whenever possible using purposely
inflammatory rhetoric. If we can all agree that we're all here to talk
about wine, and do just that, we should be able to keep this place
relatively harmonious.

Mark Lipton
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Hi Mark,

Points taken - and thanks for the input.

Cheers,

David

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"Dave" wrote .......
>
> St. Helier has his precious Central Otago.


You see Dave, this shows how little you know - I live 1,000 miles away from
Central Otago - in fact I rarely even drink wines from CO.

I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in any NZ winery - 16 years ago
I was the marketing manager of a small concern and have been involved in
both retail and teaching about wine - but for you to suggest that I have
some over-riding interest is bunkum.

But, I do know the NZ industry better than most - but, hey, I have also
visited wineries in Australia and France and Italy and Germany and Spain and
South Africa - not in any commercial sense - just as an enthusiast.

Nowadays, my consumption is probably around 35% Australian; 35% NZ and 30%
from elsewhere.

And apart from comment about wines of note (from anywhere in the winemaking
world) you are 100% wrong if you insinuate that I have ever promoted any
wine or winery.


> Ian writes about France.


Oh bullshit - Ian is vastly travelled - his last trip of note was to the
US - again, when we was contributing (and that was some time ago) his
knowledge is much much broader that just France. Ian (not to forget his
beautiful wife Jacquie) has visited NZ and Australia and many other
countries. If you had any idea about Ian's writing you would know that he
is probably more "vocal" about Tokajii than any other particular wine.

I have never, in the eight years I have contributed here, seen Ian make any
sort of commercial comment.

So, when are you going to get off your backside and get down here and see
what us antipodeans call "Godzone" - huh?

--

st.helier



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The St. Helier Cuvee, a mixed wine drink: :-)

Nowadays, my consumption is probably around 35% Australian; 35% NZ and 30%
from elsewhere.


"st.helier" > wrote in message
...
> "Dave" wrote .......
>>
>> St. Helier has his precious Central Otago.

>
> You see Dave, this shows how little you know - I live 1,000 miles away
> from Central Otago - in fact I rarely even drink wines from CO.
>
> I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in any NZ winery - 16 years
> ago I was the marketing manager of a small concern and have been involved
> in both retail and teaching about wine - but for you to suggest that I
> have some over-riding interest is bunkum.
>
> But, I do know the NZ industry better than most - but, hey, I have also
> visited wineries in Australia and France and Italy and Germany and Spain
> and South Africa - not in any commercial sense - just as an
> enthusiast.
>
> Nowadays, my consumption is probably around 35% Australian; 35% NZ and 30%
> from elsewhere.
>
> And apart from comment about wines of note (from anywhere in the
> winemaking world) you are 100% wrong if you insinuate that I have ever
> promoted any wine or winery.
>
>
>> Ian writes about France.

>
> Oh bullshit - Ian is vastly travelled - his last trip of note was to the
> US - again, when we was contributing (and that was some time ago) his
> knowledge is much much broader that just France. Ian (not to forget his
> beautiful wife Jacquie) has visited NZ and Australia and many other
> countries. If you had any idea about Ian's writing you would know that he
> is probably more "vocal" about Tokajii than any other particular wine.
>
> I have never, in the eight years I have contributed here, seen Ian make
> any sort of commercial comment.
>
> So, when are you going to get off your backside and get down here and see
> what us antipodeans call "Godzone" - huh?
>
> --
>
> st.helier
>
>
>



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Dave wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
> Points taken - and thanks for the input.
>
> Cheers,


You're most welcome, Dave. I really do want to help return this group to
more civil discourse, if I can. BTW, thanks for the informed reply to
Audrey and for not accusing her of stealth marketing for Bergstrom ;-)

Mark Lipton


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Mark Lipton says:

>BTW, thanks for the informed reply to Audrey and for not accusing her of stealth >marketing for Bergstrom ;-)



Mark:

To be fair and honest I did not feel welcome in advance of posting here
based on what I have observed reading here for the past few months and
most recently the post on Mendicino wines.

Someone pointed out that this group is not real welcoming to newcomers
and from what I have observed its not the newcomers that are the
issue....its the newcomers like me that will not really post because of
the current atmosphere.

Goodbye.

  #57 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)


Mike Tommasi wrote:
snip-
> While your comment is valid and understandable, you must also realize
> that AFW being one of the most successful newsgroups,snip


First, is there some formal rating on newgroups? Almost all newgroups
think they are one of the most successful. Where is it rated such that
you can make such a statement. Other newsgroups such as alt.coffee
that I post on regularly from my outlook newsreader(different user
name) never seems to have the problems you have here with the degree of
pettyness.

It is far more active of a newsgroup with less issues.

With respect I offer the following after spending a couple hours
reading the tone here. Apparently there are really only 5-10 primary
contributors of late. Others seem far more occasional. I will not use
names of those that I have observed or single anyone poster out by
name. This is meant to set a tone for my suggestion.

1) Posting he is a troll, spammer, opportunist, stealth marketer
accomplished nothing.
2) When a poster reveals that they are one of the above others can
silently not respond and not give attention to the situation.
3) As evidenced in this thread how many are about Mendicino wine vs
the very aspect of treatment.
4) Is this a wine group? If so treat it as such. If it is a petty
group...you are doing a fine job here.


> We welcome newcomers, but not when they come here only to plug their
> products. We also expect that a newcomer will introduce himslef, so that
> we know that when he posts next we have to treat him as... a newcomer,
> IE welcome him and be a bit more patient with him, give him a break so
> to speak.


With all due respect the internet is a place of wild debate.
Introductions are nice but not really essential. It will become
obvious if someones post as you said indicate newcomer vs. spammer,
commercial. No comment is the best approach when that takes place.

When you spend all your time discussing the posts to protest the spam,
or potential spam...isn't that contrary to the group itself.

This defense of the best newsgroup only makes you not the best
newsgroup.


> It is therefore understandable and even reasonable to be suspicious of
> anyone who has never posted before jumping in with a reply or worse, a
> new thread, as if he had always been part of AFW. This suspicion gets
> confirmed most of the time, and the person turns out to be some
> oppportunist.


Surely you just. You cannot possibly think that you can be welcoming
if you are suspicious of all newcomers. Does this group have a
leadership that is paying the bill for AFW. Afterall, be realistic
here. Tenure does not grant anyone additional rights on the internet
usenet newsgroups. Perhaps that is there the issue really lies. The
longer the contributors are here the more they feel they have the
ownership to this group. That is simply failed logic in my opinion.


> AFW is not at its best right now, but us regulars, we are trying to keep
> it on track. That's all. And that requires a firm stance sometimes.
> And sdometimes we make mistakes, in which case we are always ready to
> apologize and make up for it.



Sorry, the regulars seem to be the biggest issue here. When I read the
posts at length I can see that there appears to be a ringleader of 1-2
posters that foster and enable the continued bad behaviour here.
Sadly, they appear to be the regulars. Perhaps it is time for some of
the regulars to remember that this is not their group. Anyone can and
will post here. That the posting should remain on wine. If not, the
posters that are OT should not get any form of response.

Keep priding yourself on this (AFW) is one of the best
newsgroups...pride and saying that does not really make it so. I post
in many other newgroups that are about food, coffee, kitchens
etc...non have the issues I have witnessed in this newsgroup.

Years back when I lurked here for suggestions it appeared far more
civil in its tone and there were less authoritative posters. Posters
shared and helped others. Not attacked, accused, and convicted
posters.

Sorry for my intrusion to what you feel is your fine and most welcoming
group. I did not feel comfortable posting here in the first place for
the fear of being called a spammer, advertiser.

I hope my suggestions are not offensive to anyone as I have tried not
to be.

Audrey

  #58 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

> The St. Helier Cuvee, a mixed wine drink: :-)
>
> Nowadays, my consumption is probably around 35% Australian; 35% NZ and 30%
> from elsewhere.


I think most people call such a mix "swill".

I see St. Helier still hasn't figured out how to use his kill-file. No
surprise there.

Best,

David

  #59 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

Hello Audrey,

> To be fair and honest I did not feel welcome in advance of posting here
> based on what I have observed reading here for the past few months and
> most recently the post on Mendicino wines.
>
> Someone pointed out that this group is not real welcoming to newcomers
> and from what I have observed its not the newcomers that are the
> issue....its the newcomers like me that will not really post because of
> the current atmosphere.


I'm sorry you feel that way. Some of us are working to make this an
open/friendly list.

As for those who flat-out accuse you of something without giving you
the benefit of the doubt, think of them as trolls (and treat them as
such by ignoring them - as responding fuels their fire and only worsens
things).

Many of us here do want to keep this place open, and friendly. I hope
you will continue posting and sharing sentiments with the group.

Best regards,

David

  #60 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Posts: 90
Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

Hi Audrey,

> I hope my suggestions are not offensive to anyone as I have tried not
> to be.


I personally think you're the type of member that AFW needs MORE of.
Someone who sends the offront right back where it came from.

It's sad that in your third post to the group, you should have to
defend your "right" to be here! It is certainly telling why so few new
members seem to pop up, or at least wait seeming months in lurking
before responding.

For what it's worth, I hope we can carry on discussions about wine -
and not trolls, as this is alt.food.wine, not alt.mythology.trolls.

Best regards,

David



  #61 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

> You see Dave, this shows how little you know - I live 1,000 miles away from
> Central Otago - in fact I rarely even drink wines from CO.


Actually, more and more it sounds as though you're drink **** and
vinegar these days.

David

p.s. end of thread - NOT feeding the "HelierTroll" any more.

  #62 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Posts: 2
Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

Dear Group,

I have been observing the posts here since my initial post- my WINE
recommendation. It seems as if that was the last relevant wine
comment...? I chose to start posting in this community because it was
supposed to be about wine. I now know better. There are obviously some
past issues that newcomers do not know about- otherwise I can't
understand why my recommendation of a fantastic wine, would provoke
such a discussion- and such a background check! I am happy not to post
here any more, I really just wanted to talk about Anderson Valley
Pinots. Any wine that provokes you to join an online wine forum to talk
about it, must be pretty amazing!

Happy Tasting.

  #63 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Posts: 599
Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

KJ,

Sorry your post was ignored here. I am not familiar with this wine you
mention but will have to check it out.

Sorry for the background check others performed. They belong in the Bush
white house.

Regards,

Dick

"KJ_Wine" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Dear Group,
>
> I have been observing the posts here since my initial post- my WINE
> recommendation. It seems as if that was the last relevant wine
> comment...? I chose to start posting in this community because it was
> supposed to be about wine. I now know better. There are obviously some
> past issues that newcomers do not know about- otherwise I can't
> understand why my recommendation of a fantastic wine, would provoke
> such a discussion- and such a background check! I am happy not to post
> here any more, I really just wanted to talk about Anderson Valley
> Pinots. Any wine that provokes you to join an online wine forum to talk
> about it, must be pretty amazing!
>
> Happy Tasting.
>



  #64 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Posts: 197
Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

"Dave" > wrote in
oups.com:

>> You see Dave, this shows how little you know - I live 1,000 miles
>> away from Central Otago - in fact I rarely even drink wines from CO.

>
> Actually, more and more it sounds as though you're drink **** and
> vinegar these days.
>
> David
>
> p.s. end of thread - NOT feeding the "HelierTroll" any more.
>
>


I am confused David, you ask for civility and then make this post?

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

  #65 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Posts: 2,849
Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

Audrey wrote:
> Mark Lipton says:
>
>> BTW, thanks for the informed reply to Audrey and for not accusing her of stealth >marketing for Bergstrom ;-)

>
>
> Mark:


<SNIP troll bait>

OK, Dick. Did you really think that I wouldn't notice that "Audrey"
posts from the same Mindspring cable modem as you do? Sorry, old boy.
Up to now, I'd considered you a well-meaning contributor to this group,
but "sock puppetry" is the hallmark of the Usenet troll. Have fun
talking to Dave and UC.

Mark Lipton

***********
From: "Audrey" >
Newsgroups: alt.food.wine
Subject: Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)
Date: 1 Sep 2006 08:18:08 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com
[...]
NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.148.225.120 <----------

***********
From: "Richard Neidich" >
Newsgroups: alt.food.wine
Subject: Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)
[...]
NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.148.225.120 <----------

***********


  #66 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Posts: 271
Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

In article .com>,
"Dave" > wrote:

> Hello Audrey,
>
> > To be fair and honest I did not feel welcome in advance of posting here
> > based on what I have observed reading here for the past few months and
> > most recently the post on Mendicino wines.
> >
> > Someone pointed out that this group is not real welcoming to newcomers
> > and from what I have observed its not the newcomers that are the
> > issue....its the newcomers like me that will not really post because of
> > the current atmosphere.

>
> I'm sorry you feel that way. Some of us are working to make this an
> open/friendly list.
>
> As for those who flat-out accuse you of something without giving you
> the benefit of the doubt, think of them as trolls (and treat them as
> such by ignoring them - as responding fuels their fire and only worsens
> things).
>
> Many of us here do want to keep this place open, and friendly. I hope
> you will continue posting and sharing sentiments with the group.
>
> Best regards,
>
> David


I wish all of you would stop already with the whining. This is ng to
discuss wines and wine related issues. Travel and restaurants are part
of this discussion. If someone posts something you don't like or you
don't like them kill file them and be done with it. Now only one person
addressed the sparkler issue so please something about wine.
  #67 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Posts: 4,554
Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

Wow, as Mark had already suggested the Navarro (the only Anderson PN I
really liked, although Elke is at least ok) I ignored this thread. And
all hell breaks loose.

While I think it is important that folks be cautious in accusations,
the reality is that lots of unmoderated fora have been lost to
commercial postings. I once was a regular poster on NYC.food, till it
became one thread out of twenty was actually quality discussions (and
even then, a discussion of "best dim sum" would have some jerk posting
"have you had the brunch at Bob's dinner- yum!", and the "best steak in
NYC- Lugers or Sparks" would have "I like Bob's diner's $11 ribeye!").
Once you start it, it's hard to stop. No one here to my memory objected
when Craig W. (a substantive poster, who maybe posted 1 commercial
message out of every 50) did mention his annual sale. Nor do I remember
the Dave from Liqourama incident like Audrety does. I think Emily was
politely treated here. She was open about her business and enthusiasm
for Austrian wines, and contributed knowledge. But when people start
off primarily advertising their businesses (as opposing to contributing
to general conversation), it may not seem bad to some. But once you
have 2 doing it, who's to stop the next 22? Or 222? I believe in
politely and gently (at first) pointing out this is a non-commercial
group.

As to sockpuppets and stealth marketers, I agree with enoavidh, why
listen to those who lie.

  #68 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Posts: 599
Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

I am sorry but I use Earthlink/Time Warner. If it is more than one person
using Mindspring/earthlink that is about 1/2 the country.

Nice job Mark trying to discredit me.

I can do that by myself.


"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
> Audrey wrote:
>> Mark Lipton says:
>>
>>> BTW, thanks for the informed reply to Audrey and for not accusing her of
>>> stealth >marketing for Bergstrom ;-)

>>
>>
>> Mark:

>
> <SNIP troll bait>
>
> OK, Dick. Did you really think that I wouldn't notice that "Audrey"
> posts from the same Mindspring cable modem as you do? Sorry, old boy.
> Up to now, I'd considered you a well-meaning contributor to this group,
> but "sock puppetry" is the hallmark of the Usenet troll. Have fun
> talking to Dave and UC.
>
> Mark Lipton
>
> ***********
> From: "Audrey" >
> Newsgroups: alt.food.wine
> Subject: Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)
> Date: 1 Sep 2006 08:18:08 -0700
> Organization: http://groups.google.com
> [...]
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.148.225.120 <----------
>
> ***********
> From: "Richard Neidich" >
> Newsgroups: alt.food.wine
> Subject: Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)
> [...]
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.148.225.120 <----------
>
> ***********



  #69 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)


Mark Lipton wrote:
snip>
> OK, Dick. Did you really think that I wouldn't notice that "Audrey"
> posts from the same Mindspring cable modem as you do? Sorry, old boy.
> Up to now, I'd considered you a well-meaning contributor to this group,
> but "sock puppetry" is the hallmark of the Usenet troll. Have fun
> talking to Dave and UC.
>


snip

Mark, I am located in Atlanta, Ga and my company uses Mindpring.
Virtually everyone in Atlanta is Mindspring as this was their original
home base.

My current post is from home which is Sprint. Since you wish to tout
your cyber skills. Sprint. If your other poster uses this it would be
strange.

This group is so ultra hostile that you will never hear from me again
without an apology Did someone think this group welcomed newcommers?

  #70 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

Mr. Anderson, you now show your true colours.

Go away and find some manners !!!!!




  #71 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

> OK, Dick. Did you really think that I wouldn't notice that "Audrey"
> posts from the same Mindspring cable modem as you do? Sorry, old boy.
> Up to now, I'd considered you a well-meaning contributor to this group,
> but "sock puppetry" is the hallmark of the Usenet troll. Have fun
> talking to Dave and UC.


This is really starting to get funny.

Mark -- no offense intended -- that AOL users all seem to come from the
same range of IP addresses? Um, it's quite simple really -- AOL owns a
certain block of IP addresses, and entire groups of users (25,000 or
more) can easily be routed through the same
router/firewall/switch/whatever. Point is, IP tracing is a far-cry
these days for evaluating authenticity of the sender. What's worse...
ISPs like Verizon, who offer FFTP (fiber optic to the premises - your
house) utilize dynamic IP assignments that follow absolutely no pattern
whatsoever... so similar IPs may in fact be traced to locations 3,000
miles apart from either other.

Needless to say... I don't think Dick is doing this at all... this is
the stuff that witch hunts are made of... so very 1600's-ish! Come on,
everyone, let's grow up and face this NG with a sense of trust. What's
to lose, given that 80% of the traffic these days is accusations and
kill-file threats??

David

  #72 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

> Mr. Anderson, you now show your true colours.
>
> Go away and find some manners !!!!!


On the contrary, I have the utmost respect for members of this list who
understand a thing called civility. I value and their presence here,
admire their contributions, and where possible, hope I can add
something of value to the discussion. I also take time to try my best
and treat them with respect and validate their posts here.

If my presence so offends you, might I suggest you either:

1. Figure out how to kill-file me, as your endless, boring threats
imply you will do;
2. Join another newsgroup, such as alt.kiwi.complainers; or
3. Shut the HELIER up!

David

  #73 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

Dave wrote:

> This is really starting to get funny.


I'm glad someone thinks so.
>
> Mark -- no offense intended -- that AOL users all seem to come from the
> same range of IP addresses? Um, it's quite simple really -- AOL owns a
> certain block of IP addresses, and entire groups of users (25,000 or
> more) can easily be routed through the same
> router/firewall/switch/whatever. Point is, IP tracing is a far-cry
> these days for evaluating authenticity of the sender. What's worse...
> ISPs like Verizon, who offer FFTP (fiber optic to the premises - your
> house) utilize dynamic IP assignments that follow absolutely no pattern
> whatsoever... so similar IPs may in fact be traced to locations 3,000
> miles apart from either other.'


Dave,
I've been constantly networked since '76. I'm a former system
programmer. I know the difference between static and dynamic IP
addresses and I also know all about DHCP leases. Dick's cable modem has
a static IP address that hasn't changed since last year. You can easily
check that claim for yourself. When I see the same IP address appear in
another person's post, I don't have to think too hard about what's going
on. Dick quibbles with my claim that it's Mindspring since he's an
Earthlink customer and "Audrey" claims to be a Mindspring customer in
Atlanta. (Earthlink bought Mindspring 5-6 years ago and never bothered
to change the DNS records.) Whois searching on 24.148.225.120 will show
you that the IP block is owned by Earthlink and geolocation will show
that it's near Raleigh, NC which is where Dick lives.

>
> Needless to say... I don't think Dick is doing this at all... this is
> the stuff that witch hunts are made of... so very 1600's-ish! Come on,
> everyone, let's grow up and face this NG with a sense of trust. What's
> to lose, given that 80% of the traffic these days is accusations and
> kill-file threats??


You're entitled to your opinion. I'm done with childish games like sock
puppetry and ad hominem attacks. It's just wine talk for me from now on.

Mark Lipton
  #74 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

Mark, my account is Earthlink-Time Warner. My prior was Alltel DSL. I have
been with Earthlink-Time Warner for about 4 years.

What is your point. I don't know the difference with IP's but know I am not
the same person. You are simply getting whacko here.

But I am going to past my message source from my last post:. Then one of
Audreys--the one she claims is her home post not work.. You tell me which
is which...and why it is me since she is in Atlanta 240 miles from me. And
I am 150 miles from Raleigh...if you don't buy that ask J. Rosenberg who has
been to my house you beligerent ass.

I know who I am...and I don't appreciate your statements. They are not
founded and they are not true.

That said I have no idea what you are talking about with regards to IP's
because I am not a computer person but I did copy.paste the message info
from outlook here.

Message Source where I was replying:

References: .com>
>
>
>
t>
. net>
m>
t>
>
et>
t>
et>
. com>
>
om>
>
om>
>
Subject: Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)
Lines: 48
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869
X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962
Message-ID: . net>
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 21:20:49 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.148.225.120
X-Complaints-To:
X-Trace: newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net 1157145649 24.148.225.120 (Fri, 01
Sep 2006 14:20:49 PDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 14:20:49 PDT
Organization: EarthLink Inc. --
http://www.EarthLink.net
Xref: news.earthlink.net alt.food.wine:181877
X-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 14:20:49 PDT
(newsspool2.news.pas.earthlink.net)


This one is from Audrey from what she says is her home post using sprint:

Path:
newsspool2.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas .earthlink.net!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!postne ws.google.com!m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
From: "Audrey" >
Newsgroups: alt.food.wine
Subject: Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)
Date: 1 Sep 2006 14:50:17 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Lines: 23
Message-ID: . com>
References: >
>
t>
. net>
m>
t>
>
et>
t>
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. com>
>
om>
>
om>
>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.243.37.167
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
X-Trace: posting.google.com 1157147422 23689 127.0.0.1 (1 Sep 2006 21:50:22
GMT)
X-Complaints-To:
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 21:50:22 +0000 (UTC)
In-Reply-To: >
User-Agent: G2/0.2
X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1;
..NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe)
Complaints-To:

Injection-Info: m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com; posting-host=68.243.37.167;
posting-account=kbsUNg0AAADpUXdD-xOlXkfMamqMcmw1
Xref: news.earthlink.net alt.food.wine:181880
X-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 14:50:22 PDT
(newsspool2.news.pas.earthlink.net)




Path:
newsspool2.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas .earthlink.net!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newshub.sdsu.edu!postne ws.google.com!m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
From: "Audrey" >
Newsgroups: alt.food.wine
Subject: Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)
Date: 1 Sep 2006 14:50:17 -0700
Organization:
http://groups.google.com
Lines: 23
Message-ID: . com>
References: >
>
t>
. net>
m>
t>
>
et>
t>
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. com>
>
om>
>
om>
>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.243.37.167
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
X-Trace: posting.google.com 1157147422 23689 127.0.0.1 (1 Sep 2006 21:50:22
GMT)
X-Complaints-To:
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 21:50:22 +0000 (UTC)
In-Reply-To: >
User-Agent: G2/0.2
X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1; SV1;
..NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.1),gzip(gfe),gzip(gfe)
Complaints-To:

Injection-Info: m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com; posting-host=68.243.37.167;
posting-account=kbsUNg0AAADpUXdD-xOlXkfMamqMcmw1
Xref: news.earthlink.net alt.food.wine:181880
X-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 14:50:22 PDT
(newsspool2.news.pas.earthlink.net)



























"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
m...
> Dave wrote:
>
>> This is really starting to get funny.

>
> I'm glad someone thinks so.
>>
>> Mark -- no offense intended -- that AOL users all seem to come from the
>> same range of IP addresses? Um, it's quite simple really -- AOL owns a
>> certain block of IP addresses, and entire groups of users (25,000 or
>> more) can easily be routed through the same
>> router/firewall/switch/whatever. Point is, IP tracing is a far-cry
>> these days for evaluating authenticity of the sender. What's worse...
>> ISPs like Verizon, who offer FFTP (fiber optic to the premises - your
>> house) utilize dynamic IP assignments that follow absolutely no pattern
>> whatsoever... so similar IPs may in fact be traced to locations 3,000
>> miles apart from either other.'

>
> Dave,
> I've been constantly networked since '76. I'm a former system
> programmer. I know the difference between static and dynamic IP
> addresses and I also know all about DHCP leases. Dick's cable modem has
> a static IP address that hasn't changed since last year. You can easily
> check that claim for yourself. When I see the same IP address appear in
> another person's post, I don't have to think too hard about what's going
> on. Dick quibbles with my claim that it's Mindspring since he's an
> Earthlink customer and "Audrey" claims to be a Mindspring customer in
> Atlanta. (Earthlink bought Mindspring 5-6 years ago and never bothered
> to change the DNS records.) Whois searching on 24.148.225.120 will show
> you that the IP block is owned by Earthlink and geolocation will show
> that it's near Raleigh, NC which is where Dick lives.
>
>>
>> Needless to say... I don't think Dick is doing this at all... this is
>> the stuff that witch hunts are made of... so very 1600's-ish! Come on,
>> everyone, let's grow up and face this NG with a sense of trust. What's
>> to lose, given that 80% of the traffic these days is accusations and
>> kill-file threats??

>
> You're entitled to your opinion. I'm done with childish games like sock
> puppetry and ad hominem attacks. It's just wine talk for me from now on.
>
> Mark Lipton



  #75 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

> I've been constantly networked since '76. I'm a former system
> programmer. I know the difference between static and dynamic IP
> addresses and I also know all about DHCP leases. Dick's cable modem has
> a static IP address that hasn't changed since last year. You can easily
> check that claim for yourself. When I see the same IP address appear in
> another person's post, I don't have to think too hard about what's going
> on. Dick quibbles with my claim that it's Mindspring since he's an
> Earthlink customer and "Audrey" claims to be a Mindspring customer in
> Atlanta. (Earthlink bought Mindspring 5-6 years ago and never bothered
> to change the DNS records.) Whois searching on 24.148.225.120 will show
> you that the IP block is owned by Earthlink and geolocation will show
> that it's near Raleigh, NC which is where Dick lives.


It's no surprise the IP assignments didn't change - a simple change in
ownership doesn't necessitate that all IPs be relinquished and renewed.
It is a cost-prohibitive procedure to arbitrarily reassign blocks for
any reason -- I take this from personal experience as we just migrated
some 250 domains grouped under 50 different IPs to a new block earlier
this year (my daytime job as owner of an Oregon hosting company).

My prior note about AOL - sorry for any confusion, as I realized the
first half of the sentence was accidentally deleted before I posted -
is that AOL's IPs for years have gone through their primary core
routers in MacLean, Virginia. I know, as well as you do, that AOL has a
global audience. And yet, if you check traffic logs, for ages and ages,
*all* AOL traffic could be traced back to a few select core routers in
MacLean.

Whatever the case... any huge national ISP is going to have their own
means as to how they designate subscribers to this or that IP block, be
it permanent or statick -- or in the case of AOL and Earthlink, whether
a large group of subscribers flow through a single group of
firewalls/routers --- and hence, all members therein can be traced back
to the same core routers (so they all share the same IP) but not any
further.

It's starting to be a bit McCarthyistic here, don't you think? -- that
now suspicion is falling upon long-time members? Come on, Mark -- let's
move on and get back to the real reason we're here -- drinking great
wines -- and not hash over details that can ensue when we've all had a
bit *too* much of those same great wines, and then chosen to email.

Cheers,

David



  #76 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

While I tend to not want to get into these things, and a while ago
decided I would ignore Mr. Neidich for my own reasons, it does seem
there are some interesting coincidences here. I am aware of the
communal posting hosts of large ISPs, but it does seem textually there
are some startling similarites between Mr. Neidich and Audrey, beyond
posting details such as IP addresses:

Both live in the Southeast, but were just in Oregon discovering new
wines (Bergstrom and Dessert Wine threads). Admittedly minor
coincidence.

The newsgroup Audrey proffers as an example of greater civility from
horrid regulars of AFW is alt.coffee. Surprisingly, according to Google
Groups, the ONLY other newsgroup that Mr Neidich has posted to (other
than a couple of Xposts from AFW) is.......alt.coffee. Soulmates.

And, for the geeky, in her one wine related post Audrey says:
"Being a lover of fine French Burgundy I was amazed how
different these Oregon Pinot's are compared to the California style
which I found to be Cabernet built Pinot"

I've heard lots of folks compare some California Pinot Noirs to Syrah.
But Cabernet seems an odder comparison, but the statement's style was
vaguely familiar. So I just searched alt.food.wine for "complex
burgundy california pinot cabernet " The first hit (and the only one
that I can find that makes that comparison) was from Mr. Neidich on
5/28/02:
"Oregon is more similar to Burgundy if you like complex, multi-faceted
wines
that are simple, elegant and lack the Cabernet quality of many
California
style Pinot Noirs. "
They're certainly like-minded folks all around.

I realize none of these points is in anyway conclusive, but I found
them interesting. I just think we should all be flattered that Audrey,
a self-proclaimed regular poster on newsgroups, would set up a new
Google account just for AFW, and then spend 3 of her 4 posts berating
those who contribute regularly. I'm sure we all appreciate the
generosity of spirit.

In general I think most of us are reasonably welcoming to newcomers
(and Mark Lipton in particular is generally exceptionally gracious). We
could all use improvement (I know I could), but color me sceptical of
posters who decide to start off by chiding others.

  #77 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

Dale, she could be my girlfriend. :-) an image booster for at man married
27 years. To the best of my knowledge I am not that close to my feminine
side to have an alter personality that would be a women(presumably).

Next, her/his writing in response is that she writes under the other person
and snips portions. Rarely have I ever done that. I write on top as I am
doing this time. But if you use group think you would of course come to
your conclusion.

I figured how to do a trace on the IP address of Audreys last post which
she/he claimed was from home not work. It is a Spint IP which is different
than both of mine which are Time Warner/Earthlink. Hope this resolves your
issues on that part.

To be fair, my neighbor is with Bank of America and is in IT-network support
so he did it for me. Here are the results:

posting-host=68.243.37.167 which after run through the tracker is
IP address 68.243.37.167
Hostname 015-997-131.area7.spcsdns.net
ISP Sprint


Mine are all clearly listed as Earthlink. And have been for 4 years or so.

I am in Oregon quite regularly. Recently actually I have also found a few
Pinot from Nor Cal that I like quite a bit. Non impress me as much as a
good Burg. I think that California Cab and Cal Pinot are indeed lacking in
terms of finesse, and complexity. I do indeed think most of the NorCal
producers are Cab producers and build their wines for Parker Points that are
robust, huge wines. And 2 weeks ago I was at Bergstrom. I enjoyed their
wine and it was complex but not the style I normally drink. I bought 6
bottles and will decide in a few years. They also have a new wine room that
is quite fancy. Other wineries and restaraunts suggested going there. The
person at Avalon.com that owns that internet wine country suggested it in a
newsletter. So I did go. It was packed. So therefore since I met people
there from Atlanta, Cary, Charlotte, Richmond, Norfolk...they also must be
Audrey too.

That said I have found a few very complex Pinot from Napa/Sonoma that are
not that style in the past couple trips. El Molino Pinot(Rutherford) is
outstanding. Martinelli Reserve(Russian River/Sonoma North Coast) was
outstanding. Also Robert Sinsky 4 corners reserve outstanding. These are
all more to my liking and do indeed have the finesse of a good burgundy vs
boldness.

Now, after 8 years of seeking fine Pinot from the states I realize what I
did not enjoy...the Carneros Pinot Wines. Most are huge, massive, over ripe
similar to a Cal Cab or Cal Zin. Sorry, I don't identify them with Syrah at
all.

That all said, your post again is of the maligning type. Group think works
for you I see.











"DaleW" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> While I tend to not want to get into these things, and a while ago
> decided I would ignore Mr. Neidich for my own reasons, it does seem
> there are some interesting coincidences here. I am aware of the
> communal posting hosts of large ISPs, but it does seem textually there
> are some startling similarites between Mr. Neidich and Audrey, beyond
> posting details such as IP addresses:
>
> Both live in the Southeast, but were just in Oregon discovering new
> wines (Bergstrom and Dessert Wine threads). Admittedly minor
> coincidence.
>
> The newsgroup Audrey proffers as an example of greater civility from
> horrid regulars of AFW is alt.coffee. Surprisingly, according to Google
> Groups, the ONLY other newsgroup that Mr Neidich has posted to (other
> than a couple of Xposts from AFW) is.......alt.coffee. Soulmates.
>
> And, for the geeky, in her one wine related post Audrey says:
> "Being a lover of fine French Burgundy I was amazed how
> different these Oregon Pinot's are compared to the California style
> which I found to be Cabernet built Pinot"
>
> I've heard lots of folks compare some California Pinot Noirs to Syrah.
> But Cabernet seems an odder comparison, but the statement's style was
> vaguely familiar. So I just searched alt.food.wine for "complex
> burgundy california pinot cabernet " The first hit (and the only one
> that I can find that makes that comparison) was from Mr. Neidich on
> 5/28/02:
> "Oregon is more similar to Burgundy if you like complex, multi-faceted
> wines
> that are simple, elegant and lack the Cabernet quality of many
> California
> style Pinot Noirs. "
> They're certainly like-minded folks all around.
>
> I realize none of these points is in anyway conclusive, but I found
> them interesting. I just think we should all be flattered that Audrey,
> a self-proclaimed regular poster on newsgroups, would set up a new
> Google account just for AFW, and then spend 3 of her 4 posts berating
> those who contribute regularly. I'm sure we all appreciate the
> generosity of spirit.
>
> In general I think most of us are reasonably welcoming to newcomers
> (and Mark Lipton in particular is generally exceptionally gracious). We
> could all use improvement (I know I could), but color me sceptical of
> posters who decide to start off by chiding others.
>



  #78 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

Dale, you will indeed note...the way you know Audrey is not me is that I
write paragraphs and not really much in snippets where I interject mine with
others parts of their posts. I have found that my eyes are not real good at
that type. I simply write full without combining the original poster and
alternating.

I am surpised at the very length that some of you will go to undermine this
group and or me.

Mark Lipton indicates that I should enjoy my conversations mostly with Dave
and UC. Honestly I probably would enjoy that more than those with some in
this group. Dave and UC are actually a bit more honest in my opinion even
if you don't care for what they say. They don't seem to undermine others.
Just a bolstering of ideas.

Since you have ignored/kill filed me in the past---and apparently don't feel
I am a credible poster...please feel free to ignore me. It is obvious that
my posting of almost 12-15 years is not worthy. And in all that time to my
knowledge I have never had an alias...but heaven forbid others notice
similar even if they are southeast and drink Pinots.

You are encouraged to killfile my worthless posts. It would be acceptable
to me. Meanwhile I will continue to read you delicious posts and pairings.
What Adells sausage flaver did you have in your recipe this week? I was
going to try..did you know they have meatballs now?


Dick

"DaleW" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> While I tend to not want to get into these things, and a while ago
> decided I would ignore Mr. Neidich for my own reasons, it does seem
> there are some interesting coincidences here. I am aware of the
> communal posting hosts of large ISPs, but it does seem textually there
> are some startling similarites between Mr. Neidich and Audrey, beyond
> posting details such as IP addresses:
>
> Both live in the Southeast, but were just in Oregon discovering new
> wines (Bergstrom and Dessert Wine threads). Admittedly minor
> coincidence.
>
> The newsgroup Audrey proffers as an example of greater civility from
> horrid regulars of AFW is alt.coffee. Surprisingly, according to Google
> Groups, the ONLY other newsgroup that Mr Neidich has posted to (other
> than a couple of Xposts from AFW) is.......alt.coffee. Soulmates.
>
> And, for the geeky, in her one wine related post Audrey says:
> "Being a lover of fine French Burgundy I was amazed how
> different these Oregon Pinot's are compared to the California style
> which I found to be Cabernet built Pinot"
>
> I've heard lots of folks compare some California Pinot Noirs to Syrah.
> But Cabernet seems an odder comparison, but the statement's style was
> vaguely familiar. So I just searched alt.food.wine for "complex
> burgundy california pinot cabernet " The first hit (and the only one
> that I can find that makes that comparison) was from Mr. Neidich on
> 5/28/02:
> "Oregon is more similar to Burgundy if you like complex, multi-faceted
> wines
> that are simple, elegant and lack the Cabernet quality of many
> California
> style Pinot Noirs. "
> They're certainly like-minded folks all around.
>
> I realize none of these points is in anyway conclusive, but I found
> them interesting. I just think we should all be flattered that Audrey,
> a self-proclaimed regular poster on newsgroups, would set up a new
> Google account just for AFW, and then spend 3 of her 4 posts berating
> those who contribute regularly. I'm sure we all appreciate the
> generosity of spirit.
>
> In general I think most of us are reasonably welcoming to newcomers
> (and Mark Lipton in particular is generally exceptionally gracious). We
> could all use improvement (I know I could), but color me sceptical of
> posters who decide to start off by chiding others.
>



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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

Hi Dale and Dick,

> Next, her/his writing in response is that she writes under the other person
> and snips portions. Rarely have I ever done that.


Writing style apparently counts for little these days, at least when
some members have just enough tools to lead them on an IP witch hunt.
Same goes for years of membership, thousands of posts, and genuine
off-list conversations. Wow, Dick, if I knew you invested so much into
AFW to reap the reward of being labeled as a fake, I'd never have
walked away those years ago.

One of the things that has puzzled me about those crying foul on this
list lately, is that perhaps these members are not accustomed to
dealing with uninformed wine enthusiasts who ask sincere (albeit
newbie-style) questions. Some are very basic. Some ask about specific
wines or wineries. Some make no sense at all.

To draw a comparison, in the four years we've been running our site, we
have literally received thousands of similar questions. We ask visitors
to *please* ask us questions, so we can better understand what they're
looking for, where they're coming from, if there's anything we can do
to help, etc. And I have to admit, Audrey, BigCAWine, and others AFW
members have all asked questions that, compared to the ones we
regularly get through our site, seem almost identical in structure and
style.

The point is -- this is what sincere questions about wine "look like"
when posed by people not necessarily experience or accustomed to the
topic. Think back -- way way back if you must -- to your university
days. Remember when some of your classmates asked seemingly questions
during a lecture, but you happened to already know the answer because
you'd done your homework? Now think about the same way some of the
questions on AFW are framed. Really...

I understand that stealth marketing is a problem for online forums and
NG's these days, yet some of the 'suspicious' posts haven't even
mentioned a URL. Some have simply mentioned a winery or wine by name.
How, might I ask, is that *any* different from what the "indoctrinated"
AFW members do in their day-to-day posting here? I fall back to a prior
notion that each and every one of us is already providing free
marketing for our favorite wineries, wines, varietals, growing regions,
etc., whenever we post tasting notes or share news about such.

That new members turn to AFW for information, seeking advice, is a good
thing. That they don't understand there is now apparently some secret,
illuminati communication code one must use when posting questions to
AFW, lest it be met with reproach and suspicion, is a bad thing. AFW
has a definite opportunity here. If members want to avoid it becoming
an old boy's club (OBC), this entire game of crying foul should end
immediately. And *certainly*, members should NOT accuse the good
Richard Neidich of being a woman -- that definitely is OBC rhetoric,
and probably the reason why so few female members ever speak up, let
alone actively engage in a conversation.

It does make you think, to what degree has GroupThink taken over AFW,
when independent voices on AFW are insulted, accused of impersonating
the other gender, labeled disingenuous, and even kill-filed (that is,
if one particular dolt threatening to kill-file can ever figure out how
to do it right). Last I looked, the "W" in AFW stood for 'wine', not a
fascist administration. Then again, I could be wrong.

Cheers,

David

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Default Something smells! (Was: Anderson Valley Pinot Noir)

Hey guys you sound like cackling hens in a barnyard.

I've supped with Mark & Richard both and don't understand how things have
evolved.

Richard aka beanguy has nothing to do wineries/retailers etc & Mark does not
either.

6 weeks ago I came an airbag away from joining a celestial tasting panel so
I think all this huffing & puffing over AWS is in a minor key.

There are people who try to sell their wares to this group. Some are more
clever than others.

We really should trim our posts to only the most recent posting. One gets
lost figuring out who said what. Without a scorecard who knows who is the
spammer and who is the spamee.

I think disagreements like this should be settled away from AWS' site.

So fellas touch glasses and come out imbibing a delicious nectar.

Don't let me send my persuaders, Manny, Vito and Claude to anyone's
residence soon, so they cease & desist. They haven't roughed anyone up
since doing security for Michael Jackson's visit to the Boy Scout
Headquarters.


"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
> st.helier wrote:
> > Call me a suspicious old bugger - but.....
> >
> > If it smells like a stealth marketing campaign.....
> >
> > Consider this!
> >

>



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