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Mark Lipton wrote:
> DaleW wrote:
>
> > Mark,
> > Quibble alert! I'd say high-toned indeed refers to VA, just not in the
> > (subjective, I know) amounts that lead to a negative reaction. Light
> > amounts of noticable VA provide "lift" to the fruit - I find this in
> > trational Rioja (Lopez y Heredia being the best example), old style
> > Barolo/Barbaresco, etc.

>
> Fair enough, Dale. In the case in point, I'm not convinced that it's
> *true* VA (as in acetic or propionic acid) but something remarkably
> close (nail polish remover came to mind, but this was more pleasant than
> that). I agree 100% regarding your statement re traditional Rioja,
> though, and I suspect that Santiago probably finds even that much VA
> objectionable (one man's flaw is another's whatever).
>
> >
> > As to forward, it's ....well.....the opposite of backward. A wine that
> > is more ready and accessible than one might expect is forward, a wine
> > that is less accessible (but showing potential) is backward. The same
> > can apply to vintages ('96 Piedmont is a bit backward, '97 is quite
> > forward; '86 Bdx is backward, '99 is forward).

>
> Was there even a question about this? I must've missed it if so.
>
> >
> > I usually ignore the Scarpetti scat, but find the definition of tasting
> > as "spitting like the pros" pretty funny.

>
> Me too.
>
> > My tasting groups include
> > quite a few pros- retailers, wholesalers, importers, magazine editors,
> > and newsletter writers. I've not noticed any of the pros spitting more
> > than the rest of us, nor any defining our activities (drinking a bunch
> > of wines with dinner) as not tasting or eschewing the use of the term
> > tasting notes for their impressions. Most of us spit/dump the wines we
> > like the least, and consume the ones we like best. Where the line is
> > drawn depends mostly on whether driving is involved. Big trade
> > tastings of course are different- usually held in the afternoon, with
> > hundreds of wines, I typically taste 40 and spit 35.

>
> You must admit to being a pretty fair taster in your own right, though,
> Dale. I do think that there is merit to the notion that newcomers to
> fine wine should begin with the basics (what different grapes, regions
> and ages taste like; what I like and don't like) before getting too
> involved in large-scale tastings. However, one of the most formative
> experiences in my early wine education were the tastings hosted by a
> local retailer: 6-8 wines served over the course of 1-2 hours with
> plenty of food available. However, I see people going to very
> large-scale charity tastings who are just rushing from pour to pour and
> not taking any time to think about what they've got in the glass -- to
> me, that's not the way to learn anything about wine IMO (but maybe
> that's not their intent, either!)


I think the way to learn about wines is to drink them with meals. You
can have a large dinner with several friends, justifying three or four
bottles of various types (PN, Barolo, Dolcetto, Barbera, Chianti, Cab,
whatever). You have a small glass of each type with each dish, and take
note of what the wines do for those dishes.

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AGREED!!!!

People here tend to undervalue your contribution but often you are the voice
of reason!


"UC" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Mark Lipton wrote:
>> DaleW wrote:
>>
>> > Mark,
>> > Quibble alert! I'd say high-toned indeed refers to VA, just not in the
>> > (subjective, I know) amounts that lead to a negative reaction. Light
>> > amounts of noticable VA provide "lift" to the fruit - I find this in
>> > trational Rioja (Lopez y Heredia being the best example), old style
>> > Barolo/Barbaresco, etc.

>>
>> Fair enough, Dale. In the case in point, I'm not convinced that it's
>> *true* VA (as in acetic or propionic acid) but something remarkably
>> close (nail polish remover came to mind, but this was more pleasant than
>> that). I agree 100% regarding your statement re traditional Rioja,
>> though, and I suspect that Santiago probably finds even that much VA
>> objectionable (one man's flaw is another's whatever).
>>
>> >
>> > As to forward, it's ....well.....the opposite of backward. A wine that
>> > is more ready and accessible than one might expect is forward, a wine
>> > that is less accessible (but showing potential) is backward. The same
>> > can apply to vintages ('96 Piedmont is a bit backward, '97 is quite
>> > forward; '86 Bdx is backward, '99 is forward).

>>
>> Was there even a question about this? I must've missed it if so.
>>
>> >
>> > I usually ignore the Scarpetti scat, but find the definition of tasting
>> > as "spitting like the pros" pretty funny.

>>
>> Me too.
>>
>> > My tasting groups include
>> > quite a few pros- retailers, wholesalers, importers, magazine editors,
>> > and newsletter writers. I've not noticed any of the pros spitting more
>> > than the rest of us, nor any defining our activities (drinking a bunch
>> > of wines with dinner) as not tasting or eschewing the use of the term
>> > tasting notes for their impressions. Most of us spit/dump the wines we
>> > like the least, and consume the ones we like best. Where the line is
>> > drawn depends mostly on whether driving is involved. Big trade
>> > tastings of course are different- usually held in the afternoon, with
>> > hundreds of wines, I typically taste 40 and spit 35.

>>
>> You must admit to being a pretty fair taster in your own right, though,
>> Dale. I do think that there is merit to the notion that newcomers to
>> fine wine should begin with the basics (what different grapes, regions
>> and ages taste like; what I like and don't like) before getting too
>> involved in large-scale tastings. However, one of the most formative
>> experiences in my early wine education were the tastings hosted by a
>> local retailer: 6-8 wines served over the course of 1-2 hours with
>> plenty of food available. However, I see people going to very
>> large-scale charity tastings who are just rushing from pour to pour and
>> not taking any time to think about what they've got in the glass -- to
>> me, that's not the way to learn anything about wine IMO (but maybe
>> that's not their intent, either!)

>
> I think the way to learn about wines is to drink them with meals. You
> can have a large dinner with several friends, justifying three or four
> bottles of various types (PN, Barolo, Dolcetto, Barbera, Chianti, Cab,
> whatever). You have a small glass of each type with each dish, and take
> note of what the wines do for those dishes.
>



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Mark,
you're the chemist! I'm imprecise, but my references to VA are in the
broadest sense- acetic acid, but also acetates such as ethyl acetate
(isn't that the nail polish?). Sensitvity varies, and a pleasant lift
to me might be horrible to others.

I'm definitely not a talented taster, at least when I'm tasting with
John Gilman or the like. I do ok with my non-pro local group, but
that's more experience than skill.

I agree that the best thing is to taste/drink, preferably within peer
groups. Tasting 4-8 Cabernets next to a bunch of Nebbiolos will let one
get a glimpse of what is typical of the grape. Smaller samples are more
likely to be more influenced by producer characteristics. I mean, no
thinking person would offer (post 1985) Gaja up as an example of
Nebbiolo, right? I don't dislike Gaja, but most Sperss could slip into
a tasting of Rolland Pomerols without an eyebrow being raised.

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> Drink more Italians!

I tried to but she wouldn't fit in the glass.

(sorry about that!)

> Try them and you'll know how distinctive they are. If you cannot tell
> the difference between these two wines, blind, you're dead.


I may be able to tell the difference, but to remember which is which,
and what to do with the difference (as in pairing with food) is a
different issue.

> But wine shops hold 'tastings' all the time.


They are marketing events. OF course, professional tastings could be
said to be that too.

> To me, this is a complete waste of time if not
> actually criminal: you cannot tell a goddamned thing about many wines
> apart from drinking them during a full meal. You can tell differences,
> sure, but not how the wines do perform in the context for which they
> were created: as accompaniment to a meal.


Well, there I disagree. I certainly cannot predict an entire meal worth
of development from a taste, but I can certainly mentally compare it
with other wines I've had with other meals, and get some basic qualities
down. From there, I can assess how much I =like= the wine. These are
questions I need answered before I choose wine to buy. While wine does
taste different with food, one who pays attention to these differences
can make a reasonable judgment.

I have done many tastings at wineries like that, have chosen wine on
that basis, and when I open those wines a year later (or more) with
food, I am usually not disappointed. I think I've chosen well, and if
the tasting helped me choose, it gets the credit you deny it.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
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> I think the way to learn about wines is to drink them with meals. You
> can have a large dinner with several friends, justifying three or four
> bottles of various types (PN, Barolo, Dolcetto, Barbera, Chianti, Cab,
> whatever). You have a small glass of each type with each dish, and take
> note of what the wines do for those dishes.


Actually, I'd like to see more of that. I like seeing a given wine with
food it goes with, and the same wine with food it doesn't, as a learning
experience. Wineries don't do that much, as their goal is slightly
different.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.


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Jose wrote:
> > I think the way to learn about wines is to drink them with meals. You
> > can have a large dinner with several friends, justifying three or four
> > bottles of various types (PN, Barolo, Dolcetto, Barbera, Chianti, Cab,
> > whatever). You have a small glass of each type with each dish, and take
> > note of what the wines do for those dishes.

>
> Actually, I'd like to see more of that. I like seeing a given wine with
> food it goes with, and the same wine with food it doesn't, as a learning
> experience. Wineries don't do that much, as their goal is slightly
> different.
>
> Jose
> --
> The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.


Yes, serve a dinner withe three or four bottles of the same variety,
from different producers/vintages (say, Chianti Riserva), or three or
four bottles each of a different variety (such as Chianti Riserva,
Barbaresco, Barbera d'Asti, Taurasi Riserva, etc).

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UC wrote:

--snip--

> I think the way to learn about wines is to drink them with meals. You
> can have a large dinner with several friends, justifying three or four
> bottles of various types (PN, Barolo, Dolcetto, Barbera, Chianti, Cab,
> whatever). You have a small glass of each type with each dish, and take
> note of what the wines do for those dishes.


Absolutely. This is what I do, just about every Saturday. Always with
a cheese course too, I love cheese. Looks like we're both on the same
page, my terminology wasn't standard though.

I'll have to pick your brain about where to start with Italian wines at
some point. Sadly, my area is pretty limited in them, but I'm sure
there are some nice ones.

-ben
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Ben, where are you located?

I have similar issue in North Carolina. But I can occasionally find some
Italian wines at Costco.


"Ben Snyder" > wrote in message
...
> UC wrote:
>
> --snip--
>
>> I think the way to learn about wines is to drink them with meals. You
>> can have a large dinner with several friends, justifying three or four
>> bottles of various types (PN, Barolo, Dolcetto, Barbera, Chianti, Cab,
>> whatever). You have a small glass of each type with each dish, and take
>> note of what the wines do for those dishes.

>
> Absolutely. This is what I do, just about every Saturday. Always with a
> cheese course too, I love cheese. Looks like we're both on the same page,
> my terminology wasn't standard though.
>
> I'll have to pick your brain about where to start with Italian wines at
> some point. Sadly, my area is pretty limited in them, but I'm sure there
> are some nice ones.
>
> -ben



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DaleW wrote:
> Mark,
> you're the chemist! I'm imprecise, but my references to VA are in the
> broadest sense- acetic acid, but also acetates such as ethyl acetate
> (isn't that the nail polish?). Sensitvity varies, and a pleasant lift
> to me might be horrible to others.


Yes, I know that many people consider esters like ethyl acetate to be
"volatile acidity" but to me they're just so different that it doesn't
seem right to lump them together. To me, ethyl acetate smells of
overripe peaches, not an unpleasant thing and not at all like vinegar.
True nail polish remover is methyl ethyl ketone (2-butanone) which is
related to acetone, but smells better. Nail polish itself often
contains methyl propionate, which like its close relative ethyl acetate
has a "fruity"-type smell. So, I reserve the VA moniker to the true
acids, and everything else is in a closely related category. FWIW,
though, a chemist friend of mine can't stand the smell of ethyl acetate.
From conversations with him, I've concluded that it's being partially
converted to acetic acid in his nose. For people like that, ethyl
acetate is indeed VA.


> I agree that the best thing is to taste/drink, preferably within peer
> groups. Tasting 4-8 Cabernets next to a bunch of Nebbiolos will let one
> get a glimpse of what is typical of the grape. Smaller samples are more
> likely to be more influenced by producer characteristics. I mean, no
> thinking person would offer (post 1985) Gaja up as an example of
> Nebbiolo, right? I don't dislike Gaja, but most Sperss could slip into
> a tasting of Rolland Pomerols without an eyebrow being raised.


You've got the edge on me, there, Dale, as I've only had one Gaja wine
(but it certainly wasn't a typical Barbaresco). I can well imagine the
truth of what you say, though.

Mark Lipton

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On 30 Aug 2006 17:49:25 -0700, "UC" >
wrote:

>
>Mark Lipton wrote:
>> DaleW wrote:
>> >
>> > I usually ignore the Scarpetti scat, but find the definition of tasting
>> > as "spitting like the pros" pretty funny.

>>
>> Me too.
>>
>> > My tasting groups include
>> > quite a few pros- retailers, wholesalers, importers, magazine editors,
>> > and newsletter writers. I've not noticed any of the pros spitting more
>> > than the rest of us, nor any defining our activities (drinking a bunch
>> > of wines with dinner) as not tasting or eschewing the use of the term
>> > tasting notes for their impressions. Most of us spit/dump the wines we
>> > like the least, and consume the ones we like best. Where the line is
>> > drawn depends mostly on whether driving is involved. Big trade
>> > tastings of course are different- usually held in the afternoon, with
>> > hundreds of wines, I typically taste 40 and spit 35.

>>
>> You must admit to being a pretty fair taster in your own right, though,
>> Dale. I do think that there is merit to the notion that newcomers to
>> fine wine should begin with the basics (what different grapes, regions
>> and ages taste like; what I like and don't like) before getting too
>> involved in large-scale tastings. However, one of the most formative
>> experiences in my early wine education were the tastings hosted by a
>> local retailer: 6-8 wines served over the course of 1-2 hours with
>> plenty of food available. However, I see people going to very
>> large-scale charity tastings who are just rushing from pour to pour and
>> not taking any time to think about what they've got in the glass -- to
>> me, that's not the way to learn anything about wine IMO (but maybe
>> that's not their intent, either!)

>
>I think the way to learn about wines is to drink them with meals. You
>can have a large dinner with several friends, justifying three or four
>bottles of various types (PN, Barolo, Dolcetto, Barbera, Chianti, Cab,
>whatever). You have a small glass of each type with each dish, and take
>note of what the wines do for those dishes.


OK, I've watched this "am too"/"am not" schoolyard debate silently,
particularly the "Tar Baby" contact between conscientious and
well-meaning Jose and the continual re-defininer, Uranous
Confabulation--does that nom de flame connote some sort of slow
deterioration and eventually reaching a half-life in which it is no
longer of any potency although still feebly emitting?

Here's my position, which like an opinion, few people will care about,
but it's mine and I'll do what I want with it.

1.) I like wine.
2.) There are a lot of wines from a lot of places and even a given
wine from a given place varies from year to year.
3.) When I buy wine I prefer to spend money on wine I like.
4.) Sometime I buy wine to explore new things.
5.) Sometime I buy wine that I've had before and liked.
6.) I can't recall wines over many years without writing notes to
myself.
7.) Those notes use terminology that means something to me. If I
adopt terminology that others use and it seems relevant, so be it.
8.) I seldom spit, whether drinking wine or not.
9.) I enjoy wine with meals.
10.) I also enjoy wine with people and conversation.
11.) Sometimes #9 and #10 coincide. Sometime they don't.
12.) I have consummed wine before meals and enjoyed it. I inevitably
consumme wine after meals and almost always enjoy it.
13.) I respect my friends and guests enough that I try to serve them
wines which I've enjoyed, which based on #5 and #6 above requires that
I taste what I've drunk and note it at the time.
14.) I'm an arrogant, irrascible, curmudgeon who apologizes to no man
for what I think, what I do and what I drink or how I drink it.

Tomorrow there will be some eggplant parmesan and some turkey breast
cutlets done the same way. With it I'll consume one of the new release
Ridge Zins, probably the York Creek. I know in advance that there will
probably be another bottle opened later over conversation. I'll
probably make notes on both.

That's the way it is.

YMMV.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com


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Richard Neidich wrote:
> Ben, where are you located?
>
> I have similar issue in North Carolina. But I can occasionally find some
> Italian wines at Costco.
>


Southern Vermont. All wine merchants need to buy from state-controlled
wholesalers, so they're pretty limited in what they can get.

-ben

>
> "Ben Snyder" > wrote in message
> ...
>> UC wrote:
>>
>> --snip--
>>
>>> I think the way to learn about wines is to drink them with meals. You
>>> can have a large dinner with several friends, justifying three or four
>>> bottles of various types (PN, Barolo, Dolcetto, Barbera, Chianti, Cab,
>>> whatever). You have a small glass of each type with each dish, and take
>>> note of what the wines do for those dishes.

>> Absolutely. This is what I do, just about every Saturday. Always with a
>> cheese course too, I love cheese. Looks like we're both on the same page,
>> my terminology wasn't standard though.
>>
>> I'll have to pick your brain about where to start with Italian wines at
>> some point. Sadly, my area is pretty limited in them, but I'm sure there
>> are some nice ones.
>>
>> -ben

>
>

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Maple Wine! :-)


"Ben Snyder" > wrote in message
...
> Richard Neidich wrote:
>> Ben, where are you located?
>>
>> I have similar issue in North Carolina. But I can occasionally find some
>> Italian wines at Costco.
>>

>
> Southern Vermont. All wine merchants need to buy from state-controlled
> wholesalers, so they're pretty limited in what they can get.
>
> -ben
>
>>
>> "Ben Snyder" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> UC wrote:
>>>
>>> --snip--
>>>
>>>> I think the way to learn about wines is to drink them with meals. You
>>>> can have a large dinner with several friends, justifying three or four
>>>> bottles of various types (PN, Barolo, Dolcetto, Barbera, Chianti, Cab,
>>>> whatever). You have a small glass of each type with each dish, and take
>>>> note of what the wines do for those dishes.
>>> Absolutely. This is what I do, just about every Saturday. Always with
>>> a cheese course too, I love cheese. Looks like we're both on the same
>>> page, my terminology wasn't standard though.
>>>
>>> I'll have to pick your brain about where to start with Italian wines at
>>> some point. Sadly, my area is pretty limited in them, but I'm sure
>>> there are some nice ones.
>>>
>>> -ben

>>


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I agree with part of #14...you are arrogant and a curmudgeon!

Two qualities in life to be proud of! :-)



"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On 30 Aug 2006 17:49:25 -0700, "UC" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Mark Lipton wrote:
>>> DaleW wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I usually ignore the Scarpetti scat, but find the definition of
>>> > tasting
>>> > as "spitting like the pros" pretty funny.
>>>
>>> Me too.
>>>
>>> > My tasting groups include
>>> > quite a few pros- retailers, wholesalers, importers, magazine editors,
>>> > and newsletter writers. I've not noticed any of the pros spitting more
>>> > than the rest of us, nor any defining our activities (drinking a
>>> > bunch
>>> > of wines with dinner) as not tasting or eschewing the use of the term
>>> > tasting notes for their impressions. Most of us spit/dump the wines we
>>> > like the least, and consume the ones we like best. Where the line is
>>> > drawn depends mostly on whether driving is involved. Big trade
>>> > tastings of course are different- usually held in the afternoon, with
>>> > hundreds of wines, I typically taste 40 and spit 35.
>>>
>>> You must admit to being a pretty fair taster in your own right, though,
>>> Dale. I do think that there is merit to the notion that newcomers to
>>> fine wine should begin with the basics (what different grapes, regions
>>> and ages taste like; what I like and don't like) before getting too
>>> involved in large-scale tastings. However, one of the most formative
>>> experiences in my early wine education were the tastings hosted by a
>>> local retailer: 6-8 wines served over the course of 1-2 hours with
>>> plenty of food available. However, I see people going to very
>>> large-scale charity tastings who are just rushing from pour to pour and
>>> not taking any time to think about what they've got in the glass -- to
>>> me, that's not the way to learn anything about wine IMO (but maybe
>>> that's not their intent, either!)

>>
>>I think the way to learn about wines is to drink them with meals. You
>>can have a large dinner with several friends, justifying three or four
>>bottles of various types (PN, Barolo, Dolcetto, Barbera, Chianti, Cab,
>>whatever). You have a small glass of each type with each dish, and take
>>note of what the wines do for those dishes.

>
> OK, I've watched this "am too"/"am not" schoolyard debate silently,
> particularly the "Tar Baby" contact between conscientious and
> well-meaning Jose and the continual re-defininer, Uranous
> Confabulation--does that nom de flame connote some sort of slow
> deterioration and eventually reaching a half-life in which it is no
> longer of any potency although still feebly emitting?
>
> Here's my position, which like an opinion, few people will care about,
> but it's mine and I'll do what I want with it.
>
> 1.) I like wine.
> 2.) There are a lot of wines from a lot of places and even a given
> wine from a given place varies from year to year.
> 3.) When I buy wine I prefer to spend money on wine I like.
> 4.) Sometime I buy wine to explore new things.
> 5.) Sometime I buy wine that I've had before and liked.
> 6.) I can't recall wines over many years without writing notes to
> myself.
> 7.) Those notes use terminology that means something to me. If I
> adopt terminology that others use and it seems relevant, so be it.
> 8.) I seldom spit, whether drinking wine or not.
> 9.) I enjoy wine with meals.
> 10.) I also enjoy wine with people and conversation.
> 11.) Sometimes #9 and #10 coincide. Sometime they don't.
> 12.) I have consummed wine before meals and enjoyed it. I inevitably
> consumme wine after meals and almost always enjoy it.
> 13.) I respect my friends and guests enough that I try to serve them
> wines which I've enjoyed, which based on #5 and #6 above requires that
> I taste what I've drunk and note it at the time.
> 14.) I'm an arrogant, irrascible, curmudgeon who apologizes to no man
> for what I think, what I do and what I drink or how I drink it.
>
> Tomorrow there will be some eggplant parmesan and some turkey breast
> cutlets done the same way. With it I'll consume one of the new release
> Ridge Zins, probably the York Creek. I know in advance that there will
> probably be another bottle opened later over conversation. I'll
> probably make notes on both.
>
> That's the way it is.
>
> YMMV.
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org
> www.thundertales.blogspot.com



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> Yes, serve a dinner withe three or four bottles of the same variety,
> from different producers/vintages


I mean the reverse - one wine, one variety, but several foods, some of
which "go" with the wine, and some of which "do not go" with it. That
is a learning experience not often found. The other happens all the time.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
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Ben Snyder wrote:
> UC wrote:
>
> --snip--
>
> > I think the way to learn about wines is to drink them with meals. You
> > can have a large dinner with several friends, justifying three or four
> > bottles of various types (PN, Barolo, Dolcetto, Barbera, Chianti, Cab,
> > whatever). You have a small glass of each type with each dish, and take
> > note of what the wines do for those dishes.

>
> Absolutely. This is what I do, just about every Saturday. Always with
> a cheese course too, I love cheese. Looks like we're both on the same
> page, my terminology wasn't standard though.
>
> I'll have to pick your brain about where to start with Italian wines at
> some point. Sadly, my area is pretty limited in them, but I'm sure
> there are some nice ones.
>
> -ben


Where to start? That's difficult. Right now, I'm drinking mostly
southern Italian and island wines from Puglia, Sicily, and Sardinia.
Vinously, Italy can be roughly divided into North, Central, and South.
The north can be divided into two distinct sub-areas, grouping Piedmont
and Lombardy together (typical grapes Nebbiolo, Dolcetto, Barbera) and
Veneto, Trentino Alto Adige, Friuli Venezia Giulia in the other
(typical grapes Bonarda, Pinot Grigio, etc.). Many outstanding
producers

The central area is dominated by the wines of Tuscany, but Umbria and
Lazio also make lots of wine. (Typical grapes include Sangiovese,
Trebbiano, Montepulciano, etc.). Outstanding producers include
Selvapiana, among many.

The south's production is led by Campania and Puglia. (Typical grapes
include Aglianico, Primitivo, Negro Amaro, etc.). Outstanding
producers: Mastroberardino (Campania), Taurino (Puglia), D'Angelo
(Basilicata).

In Sicily, typical grapes include Nero d'Avola and a few others. In
Sardinia, one finds Monica, Carignano, Cannonau, Vermentino, and
others. Outstanding producers: Santa Tresa (Sicily); Argiolas, Sella &
Mosca, Santadi (Sardinia



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Jose wrote:
> > Yes, serve a dinner withe three or four bottles of the same variety,
> > from different producers/vintages

>
> I mean the reverse - one wine, one variety, but several foods, some of
> which "go" with the wine, and some of which "do not go" with it. That
> is a learning experience not often found. The other happens all the time.


I don't understand this.

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>> I mean the reverse - one wine, one variety, but several foods, some of
>> which "go" with the wine, and some of which "do not go" with it. That
>> is a learning experience not often found. The other happens all the time.

>
> I don't understand this.


Do you not understand the concept, or the utility?

Wine interacts with food - it tastes better with some foods, and less
good with other foods. It is a point you make all the time, and it is
in fact true. Some people think it's BS (after all, Pepsi tastes like
Pepsi no matter what).

So, if a certain wine (Nebra, for example) tastes really good with
potatoes, but not so good with chick peas, but another wine (Cheltin,
for example) tastes really good with chick peas, but doesn't go as well
with potatoes, then serving of them together, and tasting all four
pairings (that is, drinking each of the wines with each of the foods,
and noticing how good or not so good they are) would be instructive.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
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Jose wrote:
> >> I mean the reverse - one wine, one variety, but several foods, some of
> >> which "go" with the wine, and some of which "do not go" with it. That
> >> is a learning experience not often found. The other happens all the time.

> >
> > I don't understand this.

>
> Do you not understand the concept, or the utility?
>
> Wine interacts with food - it tastes better with some foods, and less
> good with other foods. It is a point you make all the time, and it is
> in fact true. Some people think it's BS (after all, Pepsi tastes like
> Pepsi no matter what).
>
> So, if a certain wine (Nebra, for example) tastes really good with
> potatoes, but not so good with chick peas, but another wine (Cheltin,
> for example) tastes really good with chick peas, but doesn't go as well
> with potatoes, then serving of them together, and tasting all four
> pairings (that is, drinking each of the wines with each of the foods,
> and noticing how good or not so good they are) would be instructive.


I don't see how this falls into regional Italian cooking. Of course any
given dish will match well with some wines more than others, but by
staying with regional dishes and regional wines one will generally find
good compatibility.


>
> Jose
> --
> The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.


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Not true...even pepsi does not taste the same with ice cream as it does with
potato chips.




"Jose" > wrote in message
t...
>>> I mean the reverse - one wine, one variety, but several foods, some of
>>> which "go" with the wine, and some of which "do not go" with it. That
>>> is a learning experience not often found. The other happens all the
>>> time.

>>
>> I don't understand this.

>
> Do you not understand the concept, or the utility?
>
> Wine interacts with food - it tastes better with some foods, and less good
> with other foods. It is a point you make all the time, and it is in fact
> true. Some people think it's BS (after all, Pepsi tastes like Pepsi no
> matter what).
>
> So, if a certain wine (Nebra, for example) tastes really good with
> potatoes, but not so good with chick peas, but another wine (Cheltin, for
> example) tastes really good with chick peas, but doesn't go as well with
> potatoes, then serving of them together, and tasting all four pairings
> (that is, drinking each of the wines with each of the foods, and noticing
> how good or not so good they are) would be instructive.
>
> Jose
> --
> The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.



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On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:05:04 GMT, "Richard Neidich"
> wrote:

>Not true...even pepsi does not taste the same with ice cream as it does with
>potato chips.
>


And, for Nils benefit, Pepsi is absolutely terrible with herring or
Lutefisk.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com


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> I don't see how this falls into regional Italian cooking. Of course any
> given dish will match well with some wines more than others, but by
> staying with regional dishes and regional wines one will generally find
> good compatibility.


I never mentioned Itailian wines, nor did I limit myself to them. But
ok, you make a statement. This statement is subject to test and
verification, which would lead to greater understanding.

Try that same regional Italian wine with a dish that is neither
regional, nor Italian, and it is likely to suffer. But until one
actually experiences this, the Great Unwashed may think it BS. ("after
all, wine is wine, right?").

Thus, doing something like this is likely to educate the palate.

Not yours of course, you already know this. But for those that don't.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
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> Not true...even pepsi does not taste the same with ice cream as it does with
> potato chips.


Ok, you caught me in mild hyperbole. For the ice cream, a 2004 Montana
Pepsi would be best, and for the potato chips, the more robust 1999
vintage Pepsi from Texas is called for.

Jose
--
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for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
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Jose wrote:
> > I don't see how this falls into regional Italian cooking. Of course any
> > given dish will match well with some wines more than others, but by
> > staying with regional dishes and regional wines one will generally find
> > good compatibility.

>
> I never mentioned Itailian wines, nor did I limit myself to them. But
> ok, you make a statement. This statement is subject to test and
> verification, which would lead to greater understanding.


Picking any old wine (say, a California Pinot Noir) and any old dish
(say, English roast beef) will be a poor way to proceed. Since Italian
cooking and wines are the best in the world (nudge, nudge) it only
makes sense to proceed in that way.

> Try that same regional Italian wine with a dish that is neither
> regional, nor Italian, and it is likely to suffer.


Of course. That's why we don't do that, do we?

> But until one
> actually experiences this, the Great Unwashed may think it BS. ("after
> all, wine is wine, right?").
>
> Thus, doing something like this is likely to educate the palate.
>
> Not yours of course, you already know this. But for those that don't.
>
> Jose
> --
> The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.


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On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:35:51 GMT, Jose >
wrote:

>> Not true...even pepsi does not taste the same with ice cream as it does with
>> potato chips.

>
>Ok, you caught me in mild hyperbole. For the ice cream, a 2004 Montana
>Pepsi would be best, and for the potato chips, the more robust 1999
>vintage Pepsi from Texas is called for.


Well made point. And, for Nils' herring and lutefisk, I recommend
strong clear spirits--to accompany the herring and administered
liberally prior to consumption of the lutefisk.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com
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Mike Tommasi wrote:
> Jose wrote:
> >> I don't see how this falls into regional Italian cooking. Of course any
> >> given dish will match well with some wines more than others, but by
> >> staying with regional dishes and regional wines one will generally find
> >> good compatibility.

>
> > Try that same regional Italian wine with a dish that is neither
> > regional, nor Italian, and it is likely to suffer.

>
> Regional pairings are a bit of a dogmatic trap. In Italy in particular,
> you should note that there have been big changes in both food and wine.


True..

> Wines do not resemble their equivalents from 40 years ago, in Italy in
> particular, wines today hardly resemble those that went by the same name
> even 40 years ago, and the style has changed too. We have gone from
> rough long aging barolos and very light quaffable dolcetto to overly
> smooth overoaked drink young barolo and heady tannic dolcetto.
>
> Friuli, a land that produced mostly red wines until the war, now
> produces almost exclusively whites. Now these happen to be the most
> serious whites in Italy (great), but in no way can they be considered
> traditional (unless you accept very recent traditions).


True, which is why I am buying more southen wines lately. They're more
traditional, in general, than the northern.

> So while there is nothing like a lively low tannin acidic lambrusco to
> go with the local pork-based cuisine of Modena, many regional pairings
> are now corrupted by the new style of italian wine.


And by the newer styles of cooking. That's why I am trying the Slow
Food approach.

> Same goes for France, while Muscadet and local shellfish are made for
> each other, the piddly whites of Provence are hardly a match for the
> great seafood we have here (the area is best at producing reds!), and
> land-locked areas like Chablis are dedicated to making wine that is
> perfect for the fish that comes from hundreds of miles away.
>
> Hybrid matches are great too, nothing goes better with a Castelmagno
> cheese from Piemonte than a great Sauternes, and vice versa great
> french/venezuelan chocolate from Voiron or Cluisel are fantastic with a
> Recioto.
>
> So in fact, breaking the straight-jacket of regional wine and food
> pairings can be very rewarding, in most cases I recommend it.


But most people should start with regional pairings, then go from
there. Regional pairings have established themselves over long periods
of time.

>
> Mike
>
> --
> Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
> email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail




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UC wrote:
> Ben Snyder wrote:
>> UC wrote:
>>
>> --snip--
>>
>>> I think the way to learn about wines is to drink them with meals. You
>>> can have a large dinner with several friends, justifying three or four
>>> bottles of various types (PN, Barolo, Dolcetto, Barbera, Chianti, Cab,
>>> whatever). You have a small glass of each type with each dish, and take
>>> note of what the wines do for those dishes.

>> Absolutely. This is what I do, just about every Saturday. Always with
>> a cheese course too, I love cheese. Looks like we're both on the same
>> page, my terminology wasn't standard though.
>>
>> I'll have to pick your brain about where to start with Italian wines at
>> some point. Sadly, my area is pretty limited in them, but I'm sure
>> there are some nice ones.
>>
>> -ben

>
> Where to start? That's difficult. Right now, I'm drinking mostly
> southern Italian and island wines from Puglia, Sicily, and Sardinia.
> Vinously, Italy can be roughly divided into North, Central, and South.
> The north can be divided into two distinct sub-areas, grouping Piedmont
> and Lombardy together (typical grapes Nebbiolo, Dolcetto, Barbera) and
> Veneto, Trentino Alto Adige, Friuli Venezia Giulia in the other
> (typical grapes Bonarda, Pinot Grigio, etc.). Many outstanding
> producers
>
> The central area is dominated by the wines of Tuscany, but Umbria and
> Lazio also make lots of wine. (Typical grapes include Sangiovese,
> Trebbiano, Montepulciano, etc.). Outstanding producers include
> Selvapiana, among many.
>
> The south's production is led by Campania and Puglia. (Typical grapes
> include Aglianico, Primitivo, Negro Amaro, etc.). Outstanding
> producers: Mastroberardino (Campania), Taurino (Puglia), D'Angelo
> (Basilicata).
>
> In Sicily, typical grapes include Nero d'Avola and a few others. In
> Sardinia, one finds Monica, Carignano, Cannonau, Vermentino, and
> others. Outstanding producers: Santa Tresa (Sicily); Argiolas, Sella &
> Mosca, Santadi (Sardinia
>


Excellent, thanks! I have had quite a few Primitivos, though it was
before I actually made any effort to keep track of what I was trying.
I might need to take a ride over to NY to a bigger, less restricted shop
to explore some of the Italian offerings.

-ben
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> Picking any old wine (say, a California Pinot Noir) and any old dish
> (say, English roast beef) will be a poor way to proceed. Since Italian
> cooking and wines are the best in the world (nudge, nudge) it only
> makes sense to proceed in that way.


Well, no.

If you do this, you may (I'll accept your premise - wink wink) always
have good pairings and a good dining experience, but your palate will
not expand. You will gain no =understanding=, and the premise that
other pairings don't work as well (or work badly) would be a matter of
faith, not knowledge.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
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On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 20:11:42 +0200, Mike Tommasi >
wrote:

>Ed Rasimus wrote:
>> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:35:51 GMT, Jose >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Not true...even pepsi does not taste the same with ice cream as it does with
>>>>potato chips.
>>>
>>>Ok, you caught me in mild hyperbole. For the ice cream, a 2004 Montana
>>>Pepsi would be best, and for the potato chips, the more robust 1999
>>>vintage Pepsi from Texas is called for.

>>
>>
>> Well made point. And, for Nils' herring and lutefisk, I recommend
>> strong clear spirits--to accompany the herring and administered
>> liberally prior to consumption of the lutefisk.

>
>Would you serve the ludefisk before, with or after the ice cream?
>
>;-0


Traditionalists would serve the lutefisk well before the ice cream.
Experienced diners would start the strong clear spirits at least eight
to twelve hours before the planned dinner so as to render themselves
either comotose or totally insensate if still mobile.

Some modernists are leaning toward a "fusion" approach with regard to
the ice cream with more conservative cuisiners doing lutefisk sundaes
and the truly avant garde leaning toward lutefisk gelatos or sorbets.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com
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"Michael Scarpitti" wrote ...
>
> But most people should start with regional pairings, then go from
> there. Regional pairings have established themselves over long
> periods of time.


Michael, you are an American of Italian heritage - and you choose to embrace
that heritage.

I am a New Zealander of Irish / Polynesian extraction - where there is no
established wine heritage.

I choose to be multi-dimensional very much in the Ed Rasimus mould, as
outlined elsewhere in this thread.

I do not drink beer; I rarely drink spirits; be damned if I am going to call
French or Italian or any other region as *mine*.

To say that "most people should start with regional pairings" is simplistic
at best and plain stupid at worst.

How is another country's traditional regional cuisine relevant to someone
living in New Zealand or Swaziland or Argentina - or even the USA - except
as some reference point upon which to base ones own experience.

I choose to be international in my approach - one rule "No Rules"

So, I will drink Pinot Noir with lamb; and plenty of other wine/food matches
which sometimes work and oftimes doesn't.

But this is *my* experience - not right and not wrong - but mine !!!!!

--

st.helier


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"Ed Rasimus" wrote .....
>
> 1.) I like wine.
> 2.) There are a lot of wines from a lot of places and even a given
> wine from a given place varies from year to year.
> 3.) When I buy wine I prefer to spend money on wine I like.
> 4.) Sometime I buy wine to explore new things.
> 5.) Sometime I buy wine that I've had before and liked.
> 6.) I can't recall wines over many years without writing notes to
> myself.
> 7.) Those notes use terminology that means something to me. If I
> adopt terminology that others use and it seems relevant, so be it.
> 8.) I seldom spit, whether drinking wine or not.
> 9.) I enjoy wine with meals.
> 10.) I also enjoy wine with people and conversation.
> 11.) Sometimes #9 and #10 coincide. Sometime they don't.
> 12.) I have consummed wine before meals and enjoyed it. I inevitably
> consumme wine after meals and almost always enjoy it.
> 13.) I respect my friends and guests enough that I try to serve them
> wines which I've enjoyed, which based on #5 and #6 above requires that
> I taste what I've drunk and note it at the time.
> 14.) I'm an arrogant, irrascible, curmudgeon who apologizes to no man
> for what I think, what I do and what I drink or how I drink it.



Ed, have you been reading my mail ;-))

Well said, fine friend!

--

st.helier




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st.helier wrote:
> How is another country's traditional regional cuisine relevant to someone
> living in New Zealand or Swaziland or Argentina - or even the USA - except
> as some reference point upon which to base ones own experience.
>
> I choose to be international in my approach - one rule "No Rules"
>
> So, I will drink Pinot Noir with lamb; and plenty of other wine/food matches
> which sometimes work and oftimes doesn't.
>
> But this is *my* experience - not right and not wrong - but mine !!!!!


And if you're from a culture that has *no* wine tradition at all, then
it's a case of approaching everything with an open mind. I'm of Indian
origin, eat Indian food a good deal and enjoy wine - so my family/I
have spent a lot of times experimenting with different combinations of
food/wine to figure out what works and what doesn't. NZ Riesling stands
up to *many* curries, as do most Traminers, and Shiraz goes very well
with a lot of tandoori dishes. With local Singaporean cuisine, it's a
similar issue of trying different things out - if you're going simply
by tradition, then there's really nothing that goes with chicken satay
and peanut sauce (aside from maybe juice or more recently, Tiger Beer)
- if you're willing to try different things out, you find that
Australian Rieslings work very well in tandem.

The likes of UC may say it's wrong and not 'proper' - but it works as
far as I'm concerned.

Salil

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Mike Tommasi > wrote:

> I recommend a sparkling sauvignon.


Karl Steininger in Langlois has an excellent 2004:

<http://www.weingut-
steininger.at/popup_etikett.php?etikett=img/vinothek/shared/btl-sekt-
bauvignon-blanc.jpg>

or

<http://snipurl.com/vrzg>

M.
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st.helier wrote:
> "Michael Scarpitti" wrote ...
> >
> > But most people should start with regional pairings, then go from
> > there. Regional pairings have established themselves over long
> > periods of time.

>
> Michael, you are an American of Italian heritage - and you choose to embrace
> that heritage.
>
> I am a New Zealander of Irish / Polynesian extraction - where there is no
> established wine heritage.


How unfortunate for you!
>
> I choose to be multi-dimensional very much in the Ed Rasimus mould, as
> outlined elsewhere in this thread.
>
> I do not drink beer; I rarely drink spirits; be damned if I am going to call
> French or Italian or any other region as *mine*.


You could adopt one of them.
>
> To say that "most people should start with regional pairings" is simplistic
> at best and plain stupid at worst.


No, it isn't. In areas of the world where wine is traditional,
traditional pairings have arisen. Since European species of plants and
animals were imported into Australia and New Zeland, it only makes
sense to import European wines too, and to try them as an
accompaniment.

> How is another country's traditional regional cuisine relevant to someone
> living in New Zealand or Swaziland or Argentina - or even the USA - except
> as some reference point upon which to base ones own experience.


Yes, as a reference point. It gives you something to start from.
>
> I choose to be international in my approach - one rule "No Rules"


there are no 'rules', only traditions that usually make sense.

> So, I will drink Pinot Noir with lamb; and plenty of other wine/food matches
> which sometimes work and oftimes doesn't.


If you tried traditional pairings, you might be stunned how ell they
work.

Try Tummąla and Nero d'Avola.

What is Tummąla? It's a Sicilian rice dish. Recipe below (from Cucina
Paradio, by Wright):

Festive Baked Rice

TUMMĄLA

1 chicken, about 3 pounds
2 medium onions, cut into eighths
2 celery stalks, cut into chunks
4 tomatoes, peeled, seeded, and quartered
5 parsley sprigs
10 black peppercorns
1½ cups breadcrumbs
3 tablespoons milk
¾ pound chopped veal
¾ pound pecorino pepato, grated
1 garlic clove, finely chopped
4 tablespoons finely chopped parsley
Salt
¼ teaspoon pepper
5 eggs
1 medium onion, finely chopped
2 tablespoons lard
½ pound Italian sweet sausage, sliced ½ inch thick
¼ pound pork rind, cut into thin strips
2 tablespoons tomato paste
2 ½ cups Vialone or Arborio rice, washed
Butter
2 hard-boiled eggs, sliced
½ pound tuma or mozzarella, sliced
¼ pound caciocavallo, thinly sliced
¼ pound pecorino, grated
2 cups Smooth Tomato Sauce (page 82) (optional)

1. Place the chicken with the gizzard and the heart but not the liver
in a large stock pot. Add the onions, celery, tomatoes, parsley sprigs,
and peppercorns. Cover with cold water and bring to a boil. Reduce to a
simmer and cook the chicken for 2 hours, or until the meat falls off
the bone when pushed with a fork.
2. While the chicken is cooking, prepare the veal croquettes. Soak ½
cup of the breadcrumbs in the milk. If mixture looks soggy, squeeze the
milk out. Add the veal, half of the pecorino pepato, the garlic, 2
tablespoons of the chopped parsley, ½ teaspoon salt and the pepper.
Lightly beat 1 egg and add it to the mixture. Mix well with a fork or
your hands. Form croquettes the size and shape of your thumb. Cover and
put aside in the refrigerator.
3. Drain the chicken, saving all the broth in a smaller pot. Remove all
the skin and bones from the chicken and cut up the meat into small
pieces.
4. In a large frying pan, sauté the chopped onion in 1 tablespoon of
the lard over medium heat until golden, about 8 minutes. Remove from
the pan and set aside. Add the remaining lard to the pan and sauté the
veal croquettes until they are browned. Add the sausage and pork rind
and sauté for 10 minutes. Add the sautéed onion, the remaining
parsley, and the tomato paste diluted in 1 cup hot water. Cook over low
heat for 10 minutes. Set aside.
5. Bring the chicken broth to a boil and reduce it by one-third. Pour 2
½ cups into a heavy saucepan and add the rice and about 1 ½ teaspoons
salt. Cook, covered, until al dente, about 15 minutes. Pour about ¾
cup broth into the veal-sausage mixture.
6. Drain the rice, if necessary, and mix it with the remaining pecorino
pepato.
7. Preheat the oven to 350°F. Butter a deep baking dish and spread the
remaining breadcrumbs over the bottom.
8. Spread the rice on top of the breadcrumbs, about ¾ inch high.
Spread three-quarters of the chicken and half of the veal croquettes
and sausage mixture on top of the rice. Make a layer of hard-boiled
egg. Layer the tuma on top of the eggs. Cover with the remaining veal
and sauce. Spread on a layer of caciocavallo. Mix the remaining chicken
with the remaining rice and spread it on top.
9. Beat the remaining 4 eggs lightly and combine with the pecorino. Add
salt and pepper to taste. Pour the sauce evenly over the top.
10. Bake until the top has a nice golden crust, about 1 hour. Check
from time to time to be sure it doesn't dry out. The tummala can be
served directly from the baking dish with pan sauces or with tomato
sauce.
Serves 8 to 10.



>
> But this is *my* experience - not right and not wrong - but mine !!!!!
>
> --
>
> st.helier


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Mike Tommasi wrote:
> UC wrote:
> > What is Tummąla? It's a Sicilian rice dish. Recipe below (from Cucina
> > Paradio, by Wright):
> >
> > Festive Baked Rice
> >
> > TUMMĄLA
> >
> > 1 chicken, about 3 pounds
> > 2 medium onions, cut into eighths
> > 2 celery stalks, cut into chunks
> > 4 tomatoes, peeled, seeded, and quartered
> > 5 parsley sprigs
> > 10 black peppercorns
> > 1½ cups breadcrumbs
> > 3 tablespoons milk
> > ¾ pound chopped veal
> > ¾ pound pecorino pepato, grated
> > 1 garlic clove, finely chopped
> > 4 tablespoons finely chopped parsley
> > Salt
> > ¼ teaspoon pepper
> > 5 eggs
> > 1 medium onion, finely chopped
> > 2 tablespoons lard
> > ½ pound Italian sweet sausage, sliced ½ inch thick
> > ¼ pound pork rind, cut into thin strips
> > 2 tablespoons tomato paste
> > 2 ½ cups Vialone or Arborio rice, washed
> > Butter
> > 2 hard-boiled eggs, sliced
> > ½ pound tuma or mozzarella, sliced
> > ¼ pound caciocavallo, thinly sliced
> > ¼ pound pecorino, grated
> > 2 cups Smooth Tomato Sauce (page 82) (optional)

>
> Hmmm, a sicilian dish made with mozzarella and caciocavallo (not
> sicilian) and rice (which in Italy grows mostly around the 45th
> parallel)... something's not very traditional ;-)


Yes, Tummąla uses rice, which is not all that common in Sicilian
cooking. But Sicilian cooking is a blend of several cultures.

Here's the reference from Wright:

http://www.cliffordawright.com/recipes/tummala.html

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Mike Tommasi wrote:
> UC wrote:
> > What is Tummąla? It's a Sicilian rice dish. Recipe below (from Cucina
> > Paradio, by Wright):
> >
> > Festive Baked Rice
> >
> > TUMMĄLA
> >
> > 1 chicken, about 3 pounds
> > 2 medium onions, cut into eighths
> > 2 celery stalks, cut into chunks
> > 4 tomatoes, peeled, seeded, and quartered
> > 5 parsley sprigs
> > 10 black peppercorns
> > 1½ cups breadcrumbs
> > 3 tablespoons milk
> > ¾ pound chopped veal
> > ¾ pound pecorino pepato, grated
> > 1 garlic clove, finely chopped
> > 4 tablespoons finely chopped parsley
> > Salt
> > ¼ teaspoon pepper
> > 5 eggs
> > 1 medium onion, finely chopped
> > 2 tablespoons lard
> > ½ pound Italian sweet sausage, sliced ½ inch thick
> > ¼ pound pork rind, cut into thin strips
> > 2 tablespoons tomato paste
> > 2 ½ cups Vialone or Arborio rice, washed
> > Butter
> > 2 hard-boiled eggs, sliced
> > ½ pound tuma or mozzarella, sliced
> > ¼ pound caciocavallo, thinly sliced
> > ¼ pound pecorino, grated
> > 2 cups Smooth Tomato Sauce (page 82) (optional)

>
> Hmmm, a sicilian dish made with mozzarella and caciocavallo (not
> sicilian) and rice (which in Italy grows mostly around the 45th
> parallel)... something's not very traditional ;-)
>
>
> --
> Mike Tommasi - Six Fours, France
> email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail


Sicilian mother interfered with my love life...and how Roger helped me
out...

http://www.umass.edu/journal/sicilyp...0Sicilia n%22

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