In English, we generally spell the names of French wines, grapes, and wine
regions as the French do. The only counterexample that comes to mind is
Burgundy/Bourgogne.

In English, we generally pronounce the names of French wines, grapes, and
wine regions as the French do. The only counterexample that comes to mind is
Champagne.

I'm sure there are historical reasons for why Burgundy and Champagne are
different in this regard, but I don't know what they are. Can someone
enlighten me? Can someone point out other French wines with different
English/French spellings or pronunciations?

--
Ken Blake
Please Reply to the Newsgroup

"Ken Blake" > wrote in
reenews.net:

> In English, we generally spell the names of French wines, grapes, and
> wine regions as the French do. The only counterexample that comes to
> mind is Burgundy/Bourgogne.
>
> In English, we generally pronounce the names of French wines, grapes,
> and wine regions as the French do. The only counterexample that comes
> to mind is Champagne.
>
> I'm sure there are historical reasons for why Burgundy and Champagne
> are different in this regard, but I don't know what they are. Can
> someone enlighten me? Can someone point out other French wines with
> different English/French spellings or pronunciations?
>

A minor (except perhaps to HRH's subjects) exception is to call
Bordeaux, Claret.

Perhaps there is a connection with the 100 year war and the alliances
with the Dukes of "Burgundy".

So, you don't drink "Gray-ves?" :-)

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

"Joseph Coulter" > skrev i meddelandet
. 97.136...
> "Ken Blake" > wrote in
> reenews.net:
>
>> In English, we generally spell the names of French wines, grapes, and
>> wine regions as the French do. The only counterexample that comes to
>> mind is Burgundy/Bourgogne.
>>
>> In English, we generally pronounce the names of French wines, grapes,
>> and wine regions as the French do. The only counterexample that comes
>> to mind is Champagne.
>>
>> I'm sure there are historical reasons for why Burgundy and Champagne
>> are different in this regard, but I don't know what they are. Can
>> someone enlighten me? Can someone point out other French wines with
>> different English/French spellings or pronunciations?
>>
>
> A minor (except perhaps to HRH's subjects) exception is to call
> Bordeaux, Claret.
>
> Perhaps there is a connection with the 100 year war and the alliances
> with the Dukes of "Burgundy".
>
> So, you don't drink "Gray-ves?" :-)

BESIDE THE point but related, German wines used to be called Hock after the
town of Hochheim (iirc).
To continue, Sherry is a corruption of Xeres (pronounced with an achlaut).
Port is a corruption of Oporto.

Is it realistic to claim that the latter two have become standard names in
many countries because so much of the export was handled by Brittish
merchants?

Cheers

Nils Gustaf

Ken Blake wrote:

> I'm sure there are historical reasons for why Burgundy and Champagne are
> different in this regard, but I don't know what they are. Can someone
> enlighten me? Can someone point out other French wines with different
> English/French spellings or pronunciations?
>

The more colloquial use the more it's probably *******ized over history.
French (and many other) place names have always been butchered by the
British Empire...Even entire country names. Of course the opposite is
equally true. The French words for the United States and England
are translations of the (root) words.

We don't pronounce Paris or France right.

Hello, Ron!
You wrote on Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:08:45 -0400:

??>> I'm sure there are historical reasons for why Burgundy and
??>> Champagne are different in this regard, but I don't know
??>> what they are. Can someone enlighten me? Can someone point
??>> out other French wines with different English/French
??>> spellings or pronunciations?
??>>
RN> The more colloquial use the more it's probably *******ized
RN> over history. French (and many other) place names have
RN> always been butchered by the British Empire...Even entire
RN> country names. Of course the opposite is equally true.
RN> The French words for the United States and England are
RN> translations of the (root) words.

It's often not butchery and, like most other languages, French
and German have modified place names over the centuries.
Sometimes English preserves an older pronunciation. An example
is "Munich", from the old Munichen (of the monks) rather the
current elided "Muenchen" (Swiss spelling since I don't know
whether the umlaut will get thro the Internet!)

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not

Joseph Coulter > wrote:

> "Ken Blake" > wrote in
> reenews.net:

Sorry, the original post is not (yet?) on my newsserver, so reply
comes here.

>> In English, we generally spell the names of French wines,
>> grapes, and wine regions as the French do. The only
>> counterexample that comes to mind is Burgundy/Bourgogne.
>>
>> In English, we generally pronounce the names of French wines,
>> grapes, and wine regions as the French do. The only
>> counterexample that comes to mind is Champagne.

Lynch Bages immediately comes to my mind as another example.

I don't know whether there are many Brits who pronounce "riesling" as
in "to rise", but many Americans do.

>> I'm sure there are historical reasons for why Burgundy and
>> Champagne are different in this regard, but I don't know what
>> they are. Can someone enlighten me? Can someone point out other
>> French wines with different English/French spellings or
>> pronunciations?

See above. But even Chateau Palmer - another name of Anglo-Saxon
origin - is pronounced in the French way.

M.

Michael Pronay wrote:
> Joseph Coulter > wrote:
>
>
>>"Ken Blake" > wrote in
dfreenews.net:
>
>
> Sorry, the original post is not (yet?) on my newsserver, so reply
> comes here.
>
>
>>>In English, we generally spell the names of French wines,
>>>grapes, and wine regions as the French do. The only
>>>counterexample that comes to mind is Burgundy/Bourgogne.
>>>
>>>In English, we generally pronounce the names of French wines,
>>>grapes, and wine regions as the French do. The only
>>>counterexample that comes to mind is Champagne.
>
>
> Lynch Bages immediately comes to my mind as another example.
>
> I don't know whether there are many Brits who pronounce "riesling" as
> in "to rise", but many Americans do.
>
>
>>>I'm sure there are historical reasons for why Burgundy and
>>>Champagne are different in this regard, but I don't know what
>>>they are. Can someone enlighten me? Can someone point out other
>>>French wines with different English/French spellings or
>>>pronunciations?
>
>
> See above. But even Chateau Palmer - another name of Anglo-Saxon
> origin - is pronounced in the French way.
>
> M.

Does anyone know the proper pronounciation of SANCERRE? Typically, I
hear, SAN-SEAR. however, there is no cedille under the "C". On dit,
SAN-KUR quand il n'y a pas le cedille. Vrai?


http://www.wines.com/pronunciation.html

il rit > wrote in :

> Michael Pronay wrote:
>> Joseph Coulter > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Ken Blake" > wrote in
adfreenews.net:
>>
>>
>> Sorry, the original post is not (yet?) on my newsserver, so reply
>> comes here.
>>
>>
>>>>In English, we generally spell the names of French wines,
>>>>grapes, and wine regions as the French do. The only
>>>>counterexample that comes to mind is Burgundy/Bourgogne.
>>>>
>>>>In English, we generally pronounce the names of French wines,
>>>>grapes, and wine regions as the French do. The only
>>>>counterexample that comes to mind is Champagne.
>>
>>
>> Lynch Bages immediately comes to my mind as another example.
>>
>> I don't know whether there are many Brits who pronounce "riesling" as
>> in "to rise", but many Americans do.
>>
>>
>>>>I'm sure there are historical reasons for why Burgundy and
>>>>Champagne are different in this regard, but I don't know what
>>>>they are. Can someone enlighten me? Can someone point out other
>>>>French wines with different English/French spellings or
>>>>pronunciations?
>>
>>
>> See above. But even Chateau Palmer - another name of Anglo-Saxon
>> origin - is pronounced in the French way.
>>
>> M.
>
> Does anyone know the proper pronounciation of SANCERRE? Typically, I
> hear, SAN-SEAR. however, there is no cedille under the "C". On dit,
> SAN-KUR quand il n'y a pas le cedille. Vrai?
>
>
> http://www.wines.com/pronunciation.html
>

non, key hint how do you pronounce cedille? soft c with e hard with a
and o

--
Joseph Coulter
Cruises and Vacations
http://www.josephcoulter.com/

il rit > wrote:

> Does anyone know the proper pronounciation of SANCERRE?

Yes.

> Typically, I hear, SAN-SEAR.

True and correct.

> however, there is no cedille under the "C". On dit, SAN-KUR
> quand il n'y a pas le cedille. Vrai?

Nope. "C" before "e" and "i" is always like "s". "C" before
a, o, u is like a "k"; "ç" before a, o, u makes it "s".

M.

Joseph Coulter wrote:

> "Ken Blake" > wrote in
> reenews.net:
>
>> In English, we generally spell the names of French wines, grapes, and
>> wine regions as the French do. The only counterexample that comes to
>> mind is Burgundy/Bourgogne.
>>
>> In English, we generally pronounce the names of French wines, grapes,
>> and wine regions as the French do. The only counterexample that comes
>> to mind is Champagne.
>>
>> I'm sure there are historical reasons for why Burgundy and Champagne
>> are different in this regard, but I don't know what they are. Can
>> someone enlighten me? Can someone point out other French wines with
>> different English/French spellings or pronunciations?
>>
>
> A minor (except perhaps to HRH's subjects) exception is to call
> Bordeaux, Claret.


Yes, but that's really a completely different word--not so much a matter of
a different spelling or pronunciation.


> Perhaps there is a connection with the 100 year war and the alliances
> with the Dukes of "Burgundy".
>
> So, you don't drink "Gray-ves?" :-)


LOL!


--
Ken Blake
Please Reply to the Newsgroup

Nils Gustaf Lindgren wrote:

> BESIDE THE point but related, German wines used to be called Hock
> after the town of Hochheim (iirc).
> To continue, Sherry is a corruption of Xeres (pronounced with an
> achlaut). Port is a corruption of Oporto.


Yes, I was thinking in particular of French, but there's no reason why my
question couldn't be broadened to include other languages. What struck me
particularly about French, though, was that English gets it mostly
right--how few exceptions there were.

--
Ken Blake
Please Reply to the Newsgroup

Ron Natalie wrote:

> Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> I'm sure there are historical reasons for why Burgundy and Champagne
>> are different in this regard, but I don't know what they are. Can
>> someone enlighten me? Can someone point out other French wines with
>> different English/French spellings or pronunciations?
>>
>
> The more colloquial use the more it's probably *******ized over
> history. French (and many other) place names have always been
> butchered by the British Empire...Even entire country names.



Yes, certainly. For example, English names for well-known Italian cities
like Roma, Napoli, Firenze and Venezia are spelled and pronounced
differently from their native ways. But less well-known cities (especially
in southern Italy) like Parmermo, Catania, and Taormina are left intact.

I don't find that particularly surprising, but what I was commenting on was
how *seldom* that seemed to happen with wine-related terms, in particular in
French. I was wondering why there were so few exceptions and what caused
them.

--
Ken Blake
Please Reply to the Newsgroup


> course the opposite is equally true. The French words for the
> United States and England are translations of the (root) words.
>
> We don't pronounce Paris or France right.

James Silverton wrote:

> Hello, Ron!
> You wrote on Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:08:45 -0400:
>
>>> I'm sure there are historical reasons for why Burgundy and
>>> Champagne are different in this regard, but I don't know
>>> what they are. Can someone enlighten me? Can someone point
>>> out other French wines with different English/French
>>> spellings or pronunciations?
>>>
>> The more colloquial use the more it's probably *******ized
>> over history. French (and many other) place names have
>> always been butchered by the British Empire...Even entire
>> country names. Of course the opposite is equally true.
>> The French words for the United States and England are
>> translations of the (root) words.
>
> It's often not butchery and, like most other languages, French
> and German have modified place names over the centuries.
> Sometimes English preserves an older pronunciation. An example
> is "Munich", from the old Munichen (of the monks) rather the
> current elided "Muenchen" (Swiss spelling since I don't know
> whether the umlaut will get thro the Internet!)



Umlauts (and many other non-English characters) come through fine--München,
for example--although they don't necessarily display correctly on
everybody's computers.

--
Ken Blake
Please Reply to the Newsgroup
>
> James Silverton
> Potomac, Maryland
>
> E-mail, with obvious alterations:
> not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not

Michael Pronay wrote:

> Joseph Coulter > wrote:
>
>> "Ken Blake" > wrote in
>> reenews.net:
>
> Sorry, the original post is not (yet?) on my newsserver, so reply
> comes here.
>
>>> In English, we generally spell the names of French wines,
>>> grapes, and wine regions as the French do. The only
>>> counterexample that comes to mind is Burgundy/Bourgogne.
>>>
>>> In English, we generally pronounce the names of French wines,
>>> grapes, and wine regions as the French do. The only
>>> counterexample that comes to mind is Champagne.
>
> Lynch Bages immediately comes to my mind as another example.
>
> I don't know whether there are many Brits who pronounce "riesling" as
> in "to rise", but many Americans do.



Yes, but that's just out of ignorance. Unlike with champagne, where the
non-French pronunction is the standard English one, rise-ling is just wrong.
It's like people mispronouncing the name of the Italian painter Modigliano,
and sounding the "g."

--
Ken Blake
Please Reply to the Newsgroup

Michael Pronay wrote:
> il rit > wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know the proper pronounciation of SANCERRE?
>
> Yes.
>
>> Typically, I hear, SAN-SEAR.
>
> True and correct.
>
>> however, there is no cedille under the "C". On dit, SAN-KUR
>> quand il n'y a pas le cedille. Vrai?
>
> Nope. "C" before "e" and "i" is always like "s". "C" before
> a, o, u is like a "k"; "ç" before a, o, u makes it "s".

And, just to expand on this a bit, that's true for all the Latinate
languages with which I'm familiar:

in Spanish, ciudad is pronounced "see-you-dahd" whereas carne is
pronounced "car-nay"

in Italian, cello is pronounced "chay-low" whereas cannoli is pronounced
"con-no-lee"

And then there's the issue of the "Great Vowel Shift"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift) which causes such
difficulties for Anglophones learning other European languages...

....which brings me to my last point: that Sancerre rendered into
American English pronunciation would be "Sahn-sair" rather than "San-sear."

Mark Lipton

Hello, Ken!
You wrote on Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:20:02 -0700:
is "Munich", from the old
??>> Munichen (of the monks) rather the current elided
??>> "Muenchen" (Swiss spelling since I don't know whether the
??>> umlaut will get thro the Internet!)

KB> Umlauts (and many other non-English characters) come
KB> through fine--München, for example--although they don't
KB> necessarily display correctly on everybody's computers.

That's the problem! When I brought up your post to reply, the
umlauted u in München was visible in the editing window but, in
the OE6 window, it is replaced by vertical bar! Care is needed
like using triliterals for currency symbols. Thats why I use GBP
instead of £ (that often displays as something else). I am
usually consistent and use USD instead of $.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not

Ken Blake wrote:
> I was wondering why there were so few exceptions and what caused
> them.

I would suspect that the answer might lie in the difficulty of the
sounds being pronounced by an Anglophone. Bourgogne presents the
difficult "gn" sound as well as the pesky trailing "e;" the same "gn"
shows up in Champagne. Names such as Boardo, Lwahr, Rown, Allsauce,
Bozholay are much more easily pronounced IMO.

Mark Lipton
(who was gently schooled in the proper pronunciation of Beaulieu by the
redoubtable Jacquie Hoare)

James Silverton wrote:
> Hello, Ken!
> You wrote on Thu, 17 Aug 2006 10:20:02 -0700:
> is "Munich", from the old
> ??>> Munichen (of the monks) rather the current elided
> ??>> "Muenchen" (Swiss spelling since I don't know whether the
> ??>> umlaut will get thro the Internet!)
>
> KB> Umlauts (and many other non-English characters) come
> KB> through fine--München, for example--although they don't
> KB> necessarily display correctly on everybody's computers.
>
> That's the problem! When I brought up your post to reply, the umlauted u
> in München was visible in the editing window but, in the OE6 window, it
> is replaced by vertical bar! Care is needed like using triliterals for
> currency symbols. Thats why I use GBP instead of £ (that often displays
> as something else). I am usually consistent and use USD instead of $.

The problem arises from newsreaders either not properly including a
Content-Type header that includes a charset entry or in not recognizing
it. In this case, Ken's message lacks the charset directive in the
headers so your newsreader defaults to ISO-8859-1 which lacks the
u-umlaut; however, your message has the charset directive that tells my
newsreader you're using Windows-1252, which includes the umlaut.
Interestingly, you're both using OE6, so hellifIknow what causes the
different behavior (though it should be noted that Thunderbird reads
both messages with correct character encoding -- the joys of a smart
newsreader!) [1]

Mark Lipton

[1] FYI: if you run into problems like this in the future, simply
manually change the character encoding in OE to UTF-8 or Windows-1252.

Mark Lipton wrote:

> Ken Blake wrote:
>> I was wondering why there were so few exceptions and what caused
>> them.
>
> I would suspect that the answer might lie in the difficulty of the
> sounds being pronounced by an Anglophone. Bourgogne presents the
> difficult "gn" sound as well as the pesky trailing "e;" the same "gn"
> shows up in Champagne. Names such as Boardo, Lwahr, Rown, Allsauce,
> Bozholay are much more easily pronounced IMO.


Pouilly Fousse is left intact by English speakers, but usually mangled by
them.

--
Ken Blake
Please Reply to the Newsgroup

> whereas carne is
> pronounced "car-nay"

NO, a thousand times no! It's pronounced "car-neh". The "nay" ending
is an awful gringoism, despite the fact that I've actually seen it in
textbooks. Makes you wonder about the authors.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Hello, Mark!
You wrote on Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:19:20 -0400:
??>> That's the problem! When I brought up your post to reply,
??>> the umlauted u in München was visible in the editing
??>> window but, in the OE6 window, it is replaced by vertical
??>> bar! Care is needed like using triliterals for currency
??>> symbols. Thats why I use GBP instead of £ (that often
??>> displays as something else). I am usually consistent and
??>> use USD instead of $.

ML> The problem arises from newsreaders either not properly
ML> including a Content-Type header that includes a charset
ML> entry or in not recognizing it. In this case, Ken's
ML> message lacks the charset directive in the headers so your
ML> newsreader defaults to ISO-8859-1 which lacks the u-umlaut;
ML> however, your message has the charset directive that tells
ML> my newsreader you're using Windows-1252, which includes the
ML> umlaut. Interestingly, you're both using OE6, so
ML> hellifIknow what causes the different behavior (though it
ML> should be noted that Thunderbird reads both messages with
ML> correct character encoding -- the joys of a smart
ML> newsreader!) [1]

To a very large extent, it ain't broke so I won't fix it! The
current settings that I use are a pretty good compromise and I
have run into other problems when I changed the font and forgot
to change it back :-) Usually, the main problem is in displaying
posts from people who use different national keyboards than me
and I can usually guess what was wanted.


James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not

Jose wrote:
>> whereas carne is
>> pronounced "car-nay"
>
> NO, a thousand times no! It's pronounced "car-neh". The "nay" ending
> is an awful gringoism, despite the fact that I've actually seen it in
> textbooks. Makes you wonder about the authors.

Fair enough, Ho-seh You touch on the subtleties of pronuciation that
I avoided (in French, the n of Sancerre is quite different from an
English n. And, of course, that final d of ciudad doesn't sound much
like an English d in most of the Spanish-speaking cultures I've
visited). Feel free to continue the tutorial, though ;-)

Mark Lipton

Hello, Mark!
You wrote on Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:56:18 -0400:

ML> Jose wrote:
??>>> whereas carne is
??>>> pronounced "car-nay"
??>>
??>> NO, a thousand times no! It's pronounced "car-neh". The
??>> "nay" ending is an awful gringoism, despite the fact that
??>> I've actually seen it in textbooks. Makes you wonder
??>> about the authors.

ML> Fair enough, Ho-seh You touch on the subtleties of
ML> pronuciation that I avoided (in French, the n of Sancerre
ML> is quite different from an English n. And, of course, that
ML> final d of ciudad doesn't sound much like an English d in
ML> most of the Spanish-speaking cultures I've visited). Feel
ML> free to continue the tutorial, though ;-)

IMHO, it's fine to get as close as possible using the vowels,
consonants and emphasis to which you are accustomed but I agree
with Fowler that it is affected to use unusual sounds when you
are speaking your own language. I think it's a bit silly to hear
English-speaking music announcers giving the full Italian
emphasis to names :-)

I suppose you can learn the simple rules in Spanish and the fact
that an accent marks an unusual emphasis. I was very impressed
when I saw my first copy of the Spanish Royal Academy dictionary
when I found that it had *no* pronunciation guide even if
Spanish rules do differ in different parts of the world :-)

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not

> Fair enough, Ho-seh You touch on the subtleties of pronuciation that
> I avoided

Most I can let slip... but the "ay" really gets me! It seems to be the
one thing that Americans have a hard time "getting".

Jose (who pronounces his name "hoe zay" in English, but "Hoh seh" in
Spanish)
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 18:42:20 +0200, Michael Pronay >
wrote:

>il rit > wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know the proper pronounciation of SANCERRE?
>
>Yes.
>
>> Typically, I hear, SAN-SEAR.
>
>True and correct.
>
Not to argue with you, but I don't think that this (spelled)
pronounciation quite captures the nasal quality of what I take to be
the true (French) pronounciation.

Vino

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:02:28 -0400, Mark Lipton >
wrote:

>Mark Lipton
>(who was gently schooled in the proper pronunciation of Beaulieu by the
>redoubtable Jacquie Hoare)

I just say BV. It's easier to remember.

Vino

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 06:22:53 -0700, "Ken Blake"
> wrote:

>Can someone point out other French wines with different
>English/French spellings or pronunciations?

I'm not sure how common it it, butI have certainly heard Hermitage
pronounced as the English word when referring to the French wine. Thsi
was by a wine merchant.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

Mike Tommasi wrote:

> Hi Ken,
>
> Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> It's like people mispronouncing the name of the Italian painter
>> Modigliano, and sounding the "g."
>
> That would be Modigliani... ;-)


Indeed! A typo, and my apologies.


--
Ken Blake
Please Reply to the Newsgroup

Before being (and producing) wines, Bourgogne/Burgundy and Champagne are
regions. For whatever reasons, most historically important regions (i.e.
former duchies, counties etc) have different names in different languages.

Imagine there was an appellation contrôlée "Bretagne" for your favorite
Muscadet, chances are that English speakers would probably refer to it as
"Brittanny"

Hope this helps

Yves

"Ken Blake" > wrote in message
reenews.net...
> In English, we generally spell the names of French wines, grapes, and wine
> regions as the French do. The only counterexample that comes to mind is
> Burgundy/Bourgogne.
>
> In English, we generally pronounce the names of French wines, grapes, and
> wine regions as the French do. The only counterexample that comes to mind
> is Champagne.
>
> I'm sure there are historical reasons for why Burgundy and Champagne are
> different in this regard, but I don't know what they are. Can someone
> enlighten me? Can someone point out other French wines with different
> English/French spellings or pronunciations?
>
> --
> Ken Blake
> Please Reply to the Newsgroup
>
>

Yves wrote:

> Before being (and producing) wines, Bourgogne/Burgundy and Champagne
> are regions. For whatever reasons, most historically important
> regions (i.e. former duchies, counties etc) have different names in
> different languages.


Well, in English we spell Bordeaux, Loire, and Rhone as the French do, and
pronounce them at least approximately correctly.. What's so different about
Burgundy and Champagne?

Ken Blake
Please Reply to the Newsgroup