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white wine query
Can anyone here recommend a white wine, easily available in North
America, that is low in both alcohol and acid? Thanks. CPJ |
white wine query
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white wine query
A wine from muscat canelli grapes from Italy or the Left Coast---usually
7-10% alcohol but sweet--the muscat canelli is found in Asti Spumante but those are higher in alcohol. Three of the best from Italy are Rivetti, Morandina and Vietti---labels will say Moscato d' Asti. I think Robert Mondavi's Moscato d'Oro may be around. The best is the Moscato Amabile made by Louis Martini---it sold only at the winery as it is frizzante(spritzy) At one time Sutter Home & Robert Pecota had good distribution. Anything older than 2004 is a shadow of it's self. Wholesalers in your area who haven't moved out their 2003 or 2004s, will not order 2005, so you need help from a merchant in seeing what is available---There are other wines from France & Australia made from a different clone of muscat---they are higher in alcohol and more like syrup. "UC" > wrote in message ups.com... > > wrote: > > Can anyone here recommend a white wine, easily available in North > > America, that is low in both alcohol and acid? > > > > Thanks. > > Most wine is at least 11% or so alcohol, by law, custom, and necessity. > Most whites are not high in acidity. Try a nice cheap Pinot Grigio or > Soave. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CPJ > |
white wine query
Some German Rieslings are less than 10% alcohol content, and slightly sweet.
Dr. Loosen Erdener Treppchen comes to mind. > wrote in message oups.com... > Can anyone here recommend a white wine, easily available in North > America, that is low in both alcohol and acid? > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > CPJ > |
white wine query
Alianca Vinho Verde (from Portugal) is 9% alcohol, and not overly
acidic, if I recall correctly. wine-searcher.com shows many on-line suppliers from $3.99 to $9.99, for what all seem to be the same wine. wrote: > Can anyone here recommend a white wine, easily available in North > America, that is low in both alcohol and acid? > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > CPJ |
white wine query
White wines are almost always more acidic than reds.
> Most wine is at least 11% or so alcohol, by law, custom, and necessity. > Most whites are not high in acidity. Try a nice cheap Pinot Grigio or > Soave. > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> CPJ > |
white wine query
"bijoudog" > skrev i melding ... > Some German Rieslings are less than 10% alcohol content, and slightly > sweet. Dr. Loosen Erdener Treppchen comes to mind. > Yes, look for a German from 2003 with 10% alc. or less. It will definitely be low in acidity. (an extremely hot year) Anders |
white wine query
Ric wrote: > White wines are almost always more acidic than reds. Nonsense. > > > Most wine is at least 11% or so alcohol, by law, custom, and necessity. > > Most whites are not high in acidity. Try a nice cheap Pinot Grigio or > > Soave. > > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> CPJ > > |
white wine query
By "nonsense", I assume you are disagreeing with my statement that white
wines are almost always moree acidic that reds? I don;t mean to sound argumentative, but that is indeed true. Acid in a wine is typically measured in two ways; titratable acidity, and pH. The former is an analagous measure of total acidity (but is not, in fact, true total acidity, although the two are so close as to be meaningless to distinguish). The second, as you know, is a reverse function of hydrogen proton concentration - the strength of the available acid. The higher the "TA" (titratable acidity), the more acid. The lower the pH, the stronger the acidity. White wines are harvested and made to a typical range of .65 to .75 TA, whereas red wines are harvested and made to a typical TA range of .6 to .7. In other words, white wines generally contain more titratable acid. More importantly, white wines are harvested and made such that the pH typically falls in a range between 3.1 and 3.3; whereas reds fall in a ph range of 3.4 to 3.6. In other words, white wines are considerably more acidic (remember that the pH scale, at the whole number, is logarithmic. The difference in perceptible acidity of these ranges is significant. Why is all this important? Well, white wines have considerbaly less 'other stuff' to buffer them. If they are not acidic enough, they quickly taste 'flat' or 'flabby'. Whereas reds are somewhat mroe forgiving - with more buffering avaialble from the time left on the skins. Anyway, to the point of your original post - it isn;t accurate (relatively speaking) to say that "most whites are not high in acidity". In fact, realtively speaking, whites are more acidic than reds. Cheers, Ric; winemaker, wine guzzler, and closet geek >> White wines are almost always more acidic than reds. > > Nonsense. > >> >> > Most wine is at least 11% or so alcohol, by law, custom, and necessity. >> > Most whites are not high in acidity. Try a nice cheap Pinot Grigio or >> > Soave. >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> CPJ >> > > |
white wine query
Ric wrote:
> By "nonsense", I assume you are disagreeing with my statement that white > wines are almost always moree acidic that reds? I don;t mean to sound > argumentative, but that is indeed true. Welcome to the world of Mr. Michael Scarpitti (aka Uranium Committee aka UC), Ric, where everyone else on the planet is an idiot or a dupe, and only he knows The Truth™: ....that no wine benefits exposure to air and should be drunk as soon as opened ....that wine tasting is a waste of time and should be left to professionals; wine should only be drunk with meals and not thought about and furthermore that all winemakers agree with him about this. ....that Italy is the only souce for good wine and that all other sources are a prior inferior, especially France and California. Engage him in discussion at your own risk. > Acid in a wine is typically measured in two ways; titratable acidity, and > pH. The former is an analagous measure of total acidity (but is not, in > fact, true total acidity, although the two are so close as to be meaningless > to distinguish). The second, as you know, is a reverse function of hydrogen > proton concentration - the strength of the available acid. The higher the > "TA" (titratable acidity), the more acid. The lower the pH, the stronger the > acidity. The difference between TA and pH are that TA measures that total number of acidic sites present in a unit volume of wine whereas pH measures the equilibrium amount of free hydronium ion (H3O+), the common form of acid in aqueous solution. These two different values diverge when dicarboxylic acids such as malic and tartaric are involved. > > White wines are harvested and made to a typical range of .65 to .75 TA, > whereas red wines are harvested and made to a typical TA range of .6 to .7. > In other words, white wines generally contain more titratable acid. More > importantly, white wines are harvested and made such that the pH typically > falls in a range between 3.1 and 3.3; whereas reds fall in a ph range of 3.4 > to 3.6. In other words, white wines are considerably more acidic (remember > that the pH scale, at the whole number, is logarithmic. The difference in > perceptible acidity of these ranges is significant. One essential difference is the prevalence of malolactic fermentation: most whites undergo less than full ML (excepting as always the standard New World Chardonnay) whereas all reds that I know of are put through complete ML. Since malic is a dicarboxylic and lactic is a mono-, the amount of TA decreases markedly (and the pH goes up) as a consequence of ML. Nice discussion, BTW. Cheers! Mark Lipton p.s. Do you make wine commercially? If so, is it an ultra-hush-hush secret where you do? |
white wine query
Ric wrote: > By "nonsense", I assume you are disagreeing with my statement that white > wines are almost always moree acidic that reds? I don;t mean to sound > argumentative, but that is indeed true. They don't TASTE more acidic. I believe the poster was asking about wine that does not taste bitter or astringent, but used the word 'acidic'. > Acid in a wine is typically measured in two ways; titratable acidity, and > pH. The former is an analagous measure of total acidity (but is not, in > fact, true total acidity, although the two are so close as to be meaningless > to distinguish). The second, as you know, is a reverse function of hydrogen > proton concentration - the strength of the available acid. The higher the > "TA" (titratable acidity), the more acid. The lower the pH, the stronger the > acidity. > > White wines are harvested and made to a typical range of .65 to .75 TA, > whereas red wines are harvested and made to a typical TA range of .6 to .7. > In other words, white wines generally contain more titratable acid. More > importantly, white wines are harvested and made such that the pH typically > falls in a range between 3.1 and 3.3; whereas reds fall in a ph range of 3.4 > to 3.6. In other words, white wines are considerably more acidic (remember > that the pH scale, at the whole number, is logarithmic. The difference in > perceptible acidity of these ranges is significant. > > Why is all this important? Well, white wines have considerbaly less 'other > stuff' to buffer them. If they are not acidic enough, they quickly taste > 'flat' or 'flabby'. Whereas reds are somewhat mroe forgiving - with more > buffering avaialble from the time left on the skins. > > Anyway, to the point of your original post - it isn;t accurate (relatively > speaking) to say that "most whites are not high in acidity". In fact, > realtively speaking, whites are more acidic than reds. > > > Cheers, > > Ric; winemaker, wine guzzler, and closet geek > > > > >> White wines are almost always more acidic than reds. > > > > Nonsense. > > > >> > >> > Most wine is at least 11% or so alcohol, by law, custom, and necessity. > >> > Most whites are not high in acidity. Try a nice cheap Pinot Grigio or > >> > Soave. > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> CPJ > >> > > > |
white wine query
Mark Lipton wrote: > Ric wrote: > > By "nonsense", I assume you are disagreeing with my statement that white > > wines are almost always moree acidic that reds? I don;t mean to sound > > argumentative, but that is indeed true. > > Welcome to the world of Mr. Michael Scarpitti (aka Uranium Committee aka > UC), Ric, where everyone else on the planet is an idiot or a dupe, and > only he knows The Truth™: > > ...that no wine benefits exposure to air and should be drunk as soon as > opened Only wine that is too young... > ...that wine tasting is a waste of time and should be left to > professionals; wine should only be drunk with meals and not thought > about and furthermore that all winemakers agree with him about this. The smart ones do.... > ...that Italy is the only souce for good wine and that all other sources > are a prior inferior, especially France and California. That's 'F_____' and California.... > Engage him in discussion at your own risk. > > > Acid in a wine is typically measured in two ways; titratable acidity, and > > pH. The former is an analagous measure of total acidity (but is not, in > > fact, true total acidity, although the two are so close as to be meaningless > > to distinguish). The second, as you know, is a reverse function of hydrogen > > proton concentration - the strength of the available acid. The higher the > > "TA" (titratable acidity), the more acid. The lower the pH, the stronger the > > acidity. > > The difference between TA and pH are that TA measures that total number > of acidic sites present in a unit volume of wine whereas pH measures the > equilibrium amount of free hydronium ion (H3O+), the common form of acid > in aqueous solution. These two different values diverge when > dicarboxylic acids such as malic and tartaric are involved. > > > > White wines are harvested and made to a typical range of .65 to .75 TA, > > whereas red wines are harvested and made to a typical TA range of .6 to .7. > > In other words, white wines generally contain more titratable acid. More > > importantly, white wines are harvested and made such that the pH typically > > falls in a range between 3.1 and 3.3; whereas reds fall in a ph range of 3.4 > > to 3.6. In other words, white wines are considerably more acidic (remember > > that the pH scale, at the whole number, is logarithmic. The difference in > > perceptible acidity of these ranges is significant. > > One essential difference is the prevalence of malolactic fermentation: > most whites undergo less than full ML (excepting as always the standard > New World Chardonnay) whereas all reds that I know of are put through > complete ML. Since malic is a dicarboxylic and lactic is a mono-, the > amount of TA decreases markedly (and the pH goes up) as a consequence of ML. > > Nice discussion, BTW. > > Cheers! > Mark Lipton > > p.s. Do you make wine commercially? If so, is it an ultra-hush-hush > secret where you do? |
white wine query
Actually, the OP said "that is low in both alcohol and acid".
However, even if 'taste' is what the OP was suggesting, white wines generally 'taste' more acidic (tart) than reds. The astringency of reds is due more to the presence of tannins. This is a great example of why people should learn how to taste wine (technically speaking); recognizing causality of differing tastes helps people to discriminate - and to predict what they will like from what they won't. > They don't TASTE more acidic. I believe the poster was asking about > wine that does not taste bitter or astringent, but used the word > 'acidic'. |
white wine query
Great post Mark.
Given UC's last post, I think he is really referring to tannins - he uses the words 'bitter' and 'astringent'; both associated with tannins rather than acids. No, I'm not a commercial winemaker. I am a 'hobbyist' winemaker here in the Sierra Foothills. I have a small (200 vine) vineyard from which I make Syrah and Marsanne . And each year we purchase grapes from other vineyards. This year, I've committed to a small (500 lb) load of Cabernet Franc from a vineyard in this area. Produce 50+ gallons each year. And you - are you also a winemaker? Agreed as to the impact of MLF. I have a personal preference for the crisp acidity of those that do not udergo MLF, or undergo only partial - such as the NZ SB's and Chardonnays. My '05 Marsanne was not taken through MLF. It is wonderfully crisp and lively. We compared it recently to some St. Joseph's from the upper Rhone (ancestral home of Marsanne); while the 'terroir' is so wonderfully evident in their wine, we prefer the more fruit forward style we make. This year, we are considering two separate batches; one taken through MLF, one not. Cheers! > One essential difference is the prevalence of malolactic fermentation: > most whites undergo less than full ML (excepting as always the standard > New World Chardonnay) whereas all reds that I know of are put through > complete ML. Since malic is a dicarboxylic and lactic is a mono-, the > amount of TA decreases markedly (and the pH goes up) as a consequence of > ML. > > Nice discussion, BTW. > > Cheers! > Mark Lipton > > p.s. Do you make wine commercially? If so, is it an ultra-hush-hush > secret where you do? |
white wine query
Ric wrote:
> Given UC's last post, I think he is really referring to tannins - he uses > the words 'bitter' and 'astringent'; both associated with tannins rather > than acids. I've long ago ceased trying to understand WTF he's talking about: it's just not worth the effort. > > No, I'm not a commercial winemaker. I am a 'hobbyist' winemaker here in the > Sierra Foothills. I have a small (200 vine) vineyard from which I make Syrah > and Marsanne . And each year we purchase grapes from other vineyards. This > year, I've committed to a small (500 lb) load of Cabernet Franc from a > vineyard in this area. Produce 50+ gallons each year. > And you - are you also a winemaker? Nope, I'm a wine-drinking chemist, hence my overly pedantic monologue on acidity. Lucky you, though, having such great raw materials at hand for your hobby. Living in Indiana, I'd have to restrict myself to non-vinifera grapes, and that also doesn't seem worth the effort. I'm quite fond on Amador and El Dorado county for Rhone varieties and Zins. What model are you shooting for with your Cab Franc? Chinon? or St. Emilion? > > Agreed as to the impact of MLF. I have a personal preference for the crisp > acidity of those that do not udergo MLF, or undergo only partial - such as > the NZ SB's and Chardonnays. My '05 Marsanne was not taken through MLF. It > is wonderfully crisp and lively. We compared it recently to some St. > Joseph's from the upper Rhone (ancestral home of Marsanne); while the > 'terroir' is so wonderfully evident in their wine, we prefer the more fruit > forward style we make. This year, we are considering two separate batches; > one taken through MLF, one not. Yeah, I'm also a fan of crisper whites as a rule, though certain full-bodied Chardonnays can benefit from some roundness provided by ML. Whose St. Joseph blanc did you try? I'm always on the lookout for good producers. I'd guess that most producers in the N. Rhone put their whites through quite a bit of ML, but I don't have the data at hand to be sure. Cheers again, Mark Lipton |
white wine query
> wrote in message oups.com... > Can anyone here recommend a white wine, easily available in North > America, that is low in both alcohol and acid? > > Thanks. > My vote would be for a Portuguese Vinho Verde white. Usually less than $10, alcohol around 9 or 9.5%, a little spritzy, and a generally pleasant quaffer. |
white wine query
Cab Franc; given that I am unfamiliar with the Chinon, I can't compare.
Honestly, my 'model' is the Cabernet Franc produced by Mark Foster here at Nevada City Winery. Much more akin to a St. Emilion than anything else I can think of. We had the pleasure of visiting the Rhone valley last month, and picked up some St. Joseph's 'Deschants' from Chappoulet in Tain Hermitage. That is what I was comparing to - certainly not the higher end 'Crozes Hermitage' or 'Hermitage' wines! > Nope, I'm a wine-drinking chemist, hence my overly pedantic monologue on > acidity. Lucky you, though, having such great raw materials at hand for > your hobby. Living in Indiana, I'd have to restrict myself to > non-vinifera grapes, and that also doesn't seem worth the effort. I'm > quite fond on Amador and El Dorado county for Rhone varieties and Zins. > What model are you shooting for with your Cab Franc? Chinon? or St. > Emilion? > > > Yeah, I'm also a fan of crisper whites as a rule, though certain > full-bodied Chardonnays can benefit from some roundness provided by ML. > Whose St. Joseph blanc did you try? I'm always on the lookout for good > producers. I'd guess that most producers in the N. Rhone put their > whites through quite a bit of ML, but I don't have the data at hand to > be sure. > > Cheers again, > Mark Lipton |
white wine query
Ric wrote: > Great post Mark. > > Given UC's last post, I think he is really referring to tannins - he uses > the words 'bitter' and 'astringent'; both associated with tannins rather > than acids. That is, I believe, what the OP is referring to. I do like bitter wines very much (southern Itallian wines are often bitter) but Barbera can be a little 'acidic' tasting when young. The bitter flavor actually complements the acid. Anyway, I don't know why anyone gets all excited about white wine when there's so much good red available. Try a nice Insolia, such as this one: http://wineshop.justgrapes.net/istar.asp?a=3&dept=INS http://www.wineloverspage.com/winead...wa040331.phtml > No, I'm not a commercial winemaker. I am a 'hobbyist' winemaker here in the > Sierra Foothills. I have a small (200 vine) vineyard from which I make Syrah > and Marsanne . And each year we purchase grapes from other vineyards. This > year, I've committed to a small (500 lb) load of Cabernet Franc from a > vineyard in this area. Produce 50+ gallons each year. > And you - are you also a winemaker? > > Agreed as to the impact of MLF. I have a personal preference for the crisp > acidity of those that do not udergo MLF, or undergo only partial - such as > the NZ SB's and Chardonnays. My '05 Marsanne was not taken through MLF. It > is wonderfully crisp and lively. We compared it recently to some St. > Joseph's from the upper Rhone (ancestral home of Marsanne); while the > 'terroir' is so wonderfully evident in their wine, we prefer the more fruit > forward style we make. This year, we are considering two separate batches; > one taken through MLF, one not. > > Cheers! > > > > > > One essential difference is the prevalence of malolactic fermentation: > > most whites undergo less than full ML (excepting as always the standard > > New World Chardonnay) whereas all reds that I know of are put through > > complete ML. Since malic is a dicarboxylic and lactic is a mono-, the > > amount of TA decreases markedly (and the pH goes up) as a consequence of > > ML. > > > > Nice discussion, BTW. > > > > Cheers! > > Mark Lipton > > > > p.s. Do you make wine commercially? If so, is it an ultra-hush-hush > > secret where you do? |
white wine query
"Ric" wrote .............
> > > This is a great example of why people should learn how to taste > wine (technically speaking); recognizing causality of differing tastes > helps people to discriminate - and to predict what they will like from > what they won't. > Ric, you are wasting your time, energy, knowledge and experience trying to get through the solid bone which is that appendage on Mr. Scarpitti's shoulders. I have said it befo He has a mind like concrete - all mixed up and permanently set. The "giveaway" is that he is so f****d in the head that he cannot even write the word "France" Greetings from a gorgeous winters day in NZ (not a breath of wind, not a cloud in the sky - and just on 16C here in the far north) -- st.helier |
white wine query
"st.helier" > wrote in
: > Greetings from a gorgeous winters day in NZ (not a breath of wind, not > a cloud in the sky - and just on 16C here in the far north) > > -- > > st.helier > It is not fair milord, The only thing close to 16c around here is the red wine that is set out for dinner! -- Joseph Coulter Cruises and Vacations http://www.josephcoulter.com/ |
white wine query
Kia ora, mate! Sounds beautiful. It's blistering hot here. My dad is over
here, visiting from godzone, got fed up with the heat and headed off in the general direction of the Canadian border, convinced he could find some cool mountain somewhere to avoid this heat. By your 'hndle', can I assume that you live in St Helier, up around Auckland? Lived in Remuera myself but only for a year. Spent most of my years in Hamiltopn (yuk) and Wellington - which I loved. Brother lives in Nelson - lucky b(*^%(*^d Hope all is well - tantalize us some more soon with tales of those great kiwi wines. Ric > > Ric, you are wasting your time, energy, knowledge and experience trying to > get through the solid bone which is that appendage on Mr. Scarpitti's > shoulders. > > I have said it befo He has a mind like concrete - all mixed up and > permanently set. > > The "giveaway" is that he is so f****d in the head that he cannot even > write the word "France" > > Greetings from a gorgeous winters day in NZ (not a breath of wind, not a > cloud in the sky - and just on 16C here in the far north) > > -- > > st.helier > |
white wine query
"Ric" wrote ...............
> > By your 'hndle', can I assume that you live in St Helier, > A common misconception - nope St.Helier is my name <alright - part of Alexander Andrew St.Helier-Bourke> Long story about Greek Arch-heroes; patron saints of Scotland and unmarried mothers; Jersey (Channel Islands) and Irish criminals of Norman extraction!!!!! I must confess, it does raise the occasional eyebrow! -- st.helier |
white wine query
st.helier wrote: > "Ric" wrote ............. > > > > > > This is a great example of why people should learn how to taste > > wine (technically speaking); recognizing causality of differing tastes > > helps people to discriminate - and to predict what they will like from > > what they won't. > > > > > Ric, you are wasting your time, energy, knowledge and experience trying to > get through the solid bone which is that appendage on Mr. Scarpitti's > shoulders. > > I have said it befo He has a mind like concrete - all mixed up and > permanently set. > > The "giveaway" is that he is so f****d in the head that he cannot even write > the word "France" No, I simply REFUSE to do so. > > Greetings from a gorgeous winters day in NZ (not a breath of wind, not a > cloud in the sky - and just on 16C here in the far north) > > -- > > st.helier |
white wine query
First..., thanks to everyone for chiming in with so much info and
comment re my enquiry. Re 'acidic', what I meant was less acidic tasting and, hopefully, less likely to generate stomach acid etc.! CPJ UC wrote: > Ric wrote: > > By "nonsense", I assume you are disagreeing with my statement that white > > wines are almost always moree acidic that reds? I don;t mean to sound > > argumentative, but that is indeed true. > > They don't TASTE more acidic. I believe the poster was asking about > wine that does not taste bitter or astringent, but used the word > 'acidic'. > > > Acid in a wine is typically measured in two ways; titratable acidity, and > > pH. The former is an analagous measure of total acidity (but is not, in > > fact, true total acidity, although the two are so close as to be meaningless > > to distinguish). The second, as you know, is a reverse function of hydrogen > > proton concentration - the strength of the available acid. The higher the > > "TA" (titratable acidity), the more acid. The lower the pH, the stronger the > > acidity. > > > > White wines are harvested and made to a typical range of .65 to .75 TA, > > whereas red wines are harvested and made to a typical TA range of .6 to .7. > > In other words, white wines generally contain more titratable acid. More > > importantly, white wines are harvested and made such that the pH typically > > falls in a range between 3.1 and 3.3; whereas reds fall in a ph range of 3.4 > > to 3.6. In other words, white wines are considerably more acidic (remember > > that the pH scale, at the whole number, is logarithmic. The difference in > > perceptible acidity of these ranges is significant. > > > > Why is all this important? Well, white wines have considerbaly less 'other > > stuff' to buffer them. If they are not acidic enough, they quickly taste > > 'flat' or 'flabby'. Whereas reds are somewhat mroe forgiving - with more > > buffering avaialble from the time left on the skins. > > > > Anyway, to the point of your original post - it isn;t accurate (relatively > > speaking) to say that "most whites are not high in acidity". In fact, > > realtively speaking, whites are more acidic than reds. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Ric; winemaker, wine guzzler, and closet geek > > > > > > > > >> White wines are almost always more acidic than reds. > > > > > > Nonsense. > > > > > >> > > >> > Most wine is at least 11% or so alcohol, by law, custom, and necessity. > > >> > Most whites are not high in acidity. Try a nice cheap Pinot Grigio or > > >> > Soave. > > >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> CPJ > > >> > > > > |
white wine query
manitou wrote:
> First..., thanks to everyone for chiming in with so much info and > comment re my enquiry. Just to add, I've tried Aliança and Aveleda. The latter seems a tad richer, though the former has lower alcohol content --- both have a nice 'fiz'. I like them with ice, and note less of a slight/dull headache compared with the cheapo Canadian I'd been having the last while. CPJ (Canadian..) |
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