Hello folks,

I have a few questions regarding wines in general, then, just other
questions...

The whole wine jargon is a language unto itself...I'm a tech guy, and can
understand how stuff like this happens...

I mean, I know "nose", etc, but, how you guys can "detect" butter, pepper,
blackberries, whatever amazes me...

In general, when I go to the liquor store, I don't generally want to spend
more than $10, but I also realize that this may be, essentially,
ridiculous...although, if I'm just sitting at home having a bottle of wine
with my wife on a Saturday night, that might be acceptable.

Here's a question...when I read on the back of a bottle (and, do I trust
what I read?), "hint of pepper, blackberries, tobacco", or whatever...with
regard to making of wine, are these things ADDED to the wine, and what it's
aged in? I mean, they must be, right? How could the same variety of grapes
be SO different from region to region...or maybe I'm wrong...climate and
environment makes such a difference.

In my limited travels, some of the stuff I have really liked is as
follows...(please forgive spelling mistakes)

Sausal Zinfandel, from California, I believe, Goat-Rotie, from South Africa,
pretty much anything from Nederberg, once again, South Africa...I USED to
like Yellow Tail, but now eschew it as pretty much junk, now that I've had a
lot of other choices...I'm afraid of almost anything I see a LOT of at the
store, looks too mass produced...from SA, anythign with KVM makes me shy
away...

One thing I really enjoyed the other day was a Vassey Felix Shiraz from
Australia...Now that time I could REALLY taste a pepper flavor...was I
wrong? I've only found one store that has that...hard to find...

Liked a cab from Argentina...Catena? Not sure...A Norton Malbec, once again
from Argentina, was pretty good.

And, amidst all these deep dark red wines, I also like a nice light, crisp
Sav Blanc sometimes. RH Philips comes to mind...

I'm just afraid of wasting money...which I don't have a lot of...even for
one bottle...

What are my options...

Sorry for the rambling post...

Jeff

You, sir, are the victim of wine snobbery.

JR wrote:
> Hello folks,
>
> I have a few questions regarding wines in general, then, just other
> questions...
>
> The whole wine jargon is a language unto itself...I'm a tech guy, and can
> understand how stuff like this happens...
>
> I mean, I know "nose", etc, but, how you guys can "detect" butter, pepper,
> blackberries, whatever amazes me...
>
> In general, when I go to the liquor store, I don't generally want to spend
> more than $10, but I also realize that this may be, essentially,
> ridiculous...although, if I'm just sitting at home having a bottle of wine
> with my wife on a Saturday night, that might be acceptable.

There are some fine wines avauilable at around $10, but the stuff that
really starts getting exciting is around $20-40.

> Here's a question...when I read on the back of a bottle (and, do I trust
> what I read?), "hint of pepper, blackberries, tobacco", or whatever...with
> regard to making of wine, are these things ADDED to the wine, and what it's
> aged in? I mean, they must be, right?

No. Various components of wine have aromas that closely resemble those.

> How could the same variety of grapes
> be SO different from region to region...or maybe I'm wrong...climate and
> environment makes such a difference.

It does. The 'same' grape variety can be grown all around the world and
this will produce quite different wines; even in grapes in the same
locality, great differences can be noted.

> In my limited travels, some of the stuff I have really liked is as
> follows...(please forgive spelling mistakes)
>
> Sausal Zinfandel, from California, I believe, Goat-Rotie, from South Africa,
> pretty much anything from Nederberg, once again, South Africa...I USED to
> like Yellow Tail, but now eschew it as pretty much junk, now that I've had a
> lot of other choices...I'm afraid of almost anything I see a LOT of at the
> store, looks too mass produced...from SA, anythign with KVM makes me shy
> away...
>
> One thing I really enjoyed the other day was a Vassey Felix Shiraz from
> Australia...Now that time I could REALLY taste a pepper flavor...was I
> wrong? I've only found one store that has that...hard to find...
>
> Liked a cab from Argentina...Catena? Not sure...A Norton Malbec, once again
> from Argentina, was pretty good.

'Cab'? Are you trying to be hip?

> And, amidst all these deep dark red wines, I also like a nice light, crisp
> Sav Blanc sometimes. RH Philips comes to mind...
>
> I'm just afraid of wasting money...which I don't have a lot of...even for
> one bottle...
>
> What are my options...
>
> Sorry for the rambling post...

Is there a question here?
>
> Jeff

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> You, sir, are the victim of wine snobbery.

Not unexpected, but I'd still like to learn more...

>> ridiculous...although, if I'm just sitting at home having a bottle of
>> wine
>> with my wife on a Saturday night, that might be acceptable.
>
> There are some fine wines avauilable at around $10, but the stuff that
> really starts getting exciting is around $20-40.
>

Well, that would be out my price range for the average evening, and then,
yes, maybe it's just too much for me then, to really enjoy wine, because $20
a bottle, for something really "exciting" is too much...

>> regard to making of wine, are these things ADDED to the wine, and what
>> it's
>> aged in? I mean, they must be, right?
>
> No. Various components of wine have aromas that closely resemble those.
>
>> be SO different from region to region...or maybe I'm wrong...climate and
>> environment makes such a difference.
>
> It does. The 'same' grape variety can be grown all around the world and
> this will produce quite different wines; even in grapes in the same
> locality, great differences can be noted.

So, a Shyrah from California, that can be so very smooth and fruity (if I
get the term right) can be SO different from the Australian Shiraz that I
had that had a REALLY pronounced "bite" to it (and not from tanin), is
mostly because of growing conditions and climate, and not from something
that was added?

that has that...hard to find...
>>
>> Liked a cab from Argentina...Catena? Not sure...A Norton Malbec, once
>> again
>> from Argentina, was pretty good.
>
> 'Cab'? Are you trying to be hip?

Yes.

Trying to explore a large number of wine types from all around the
world is absolutely hopeless. As for myself, I drink wine only from
Italy, which has an extremely large variety of grape types and growing
conditions. That's bad enough! I suggest you try out a few wines from a
given grape and region (California OR France OR Italy) and explore
various price points. What you are doing now will not give you the kind
of knowledge that you seek.

Try exploring only Chianti or Barolo or only Burgundy or only Bordeaux
or only California Merlots.

I drink cheap wines for everyday drinking ($10-15) and spend $30-50 for
special occasions. I do not drink wine every day, though.

I can suggest one wine, though, that should knock your socks off:
Notarpanaro, made by Cosimo Taurino's winery located in Puglia, in
southeastern Italy. It runs about $15.

JR wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > You, sir, are the victim of wine snobbery.
>
> Not unexpected, but I'd still like to learn more...

Don't be intinmidated by all the wine talk about 'nose', and all the
rest. Simply pour the wine into a glass, swirl it once or twice, and
drink it slowly. Don't make a big deal out of sniffing it. That is
simply unnnecessary and pretentious. The wine's aromas will be evident
in normal drinking.

> >> ridiculous...although, if I'm just sitting at home having a bottle of
> >> wine
> >> with my wife on a Saturday night, that might be acceptable.
> >
> > There are some fine wines avauilable at around $10, but the stuff that
> > really starts getting exciting is around $20-40.
> >
>
> Well, that would be out my price range for the average evening, and then,
> yes, maybe it's just too much for me then, to really enjoy wine, because $20
> a bottle, for something really "exciting" is too much...

Where do you live?

> >> regard to making of wine, are these things ADDED to the wine, and what
> >> it's
> >> aged in? I mean, they must be, right?
> >
> > No. Various components of wine have aromas that closely resemble those.
> >
> >> be SO different from region to region...or maybe I'm wrong...climate and
> >> environment makes such a difference.
> >
> > It does. The 'same' grape variety can be grown all around the world and
> > this will produce quite different wines; even in grapes in the same
> > locality, great differences can be noted.
>
> So, a Shyrah from California, that can be so very smooth and fruity (if I
> get the term right) can be SO different from the Australian Shiraz that I
> had that had a REALLY pronounced "bite" to it (and not from tanin), is
> mostly because of growing conditions and climate, and not from something
> that was added?

Nothing is 'added' to wine to give it the aromas you are speaking of.

> that has that...hard to find...
> >>
> >> Liked a cab from Argentina...Catena? Not sure...A Norton Malbec, once
> >> again
> >> from Argentina, was pretty good.
> >
> > 'Cab'? Are you trying to be hip?
>
> Yes.

Please stop, Dave.

>> >>
>> >> Liked a cab from Argentina...Catena? Not sure...A Norton Malbec, once
>> >> again
>> >> from Argentina, was pretty good.
>> >
>> > 'Cab'? Are you trying to be hip?
>>
>> Yes.
>
> Please stop, Dave.

Ah, we can not detect sarcasm.

And, thus, ends my brief time in alt.food.wine...

In article >, jrich7970@hotmail.
com says...
>
>Hello folks,
>
>I have a few questions regarding wines in general, then, just other
>questions...
>
>The whole wine jargon is a language unto itself...I'm a tech guy, and can
>understand how stuff like this happens...

The jargon really isn't necessary to the enjoyment of wine. About the only
help that it will provide is trying to describe what you like to a retailer,
or wine-steward - or when describing a wine that you like, or did not like, in
a forum/NG like this. Not that there is anything wrong with it, one just
doesn't need to get too hung up on it. The more you learn about wine in
general, the more that you will begin to look for descriptors to get more of
what you like. You will find the jargon creeping in, in time.
>
>I mean, I know "nose", etc, but, how you guys can "detect" butter, pepper,
>blackberries, whatever amazes me...

The easiest way to begin "detecting" the elements in a wine is to relax your
brain, inhale the wine, or taste it, swallow, then exhale out of your nose.
Just think about what you are smelling/tasting. Does it remind you of
something? Aunt Jane's apple pie? Blueberries you bought along the roadside in
Maine? That tropical fruit smoothie that you had at Mango Mama's on the North
Shore of Kaua'i? Unless one has led a very sheltered life, there are aromas
and tastes that are embedded in your memory. Let them come out. Try and
recognize what it is that you are smelling/tasting. With practice, your smell
memory can really expand. Don't ever be afraid of telling someone what YOU
perceive in the wine. Remember, your sensory experiences will be different
than theirs. If you think it is tart cherry, and they say raspberry, no big
deal. It tasted like tart cherry to YOU.
>
>In general, when I go to the liquor store, I don't generally want to spend
>more than $10, but I also realize that this may be, essentially,
>ridiculous...although, if I'm just sitting at home having a bottle of wine
>with my wife on a Saturday night, that might be acceptable.
>
>Here's a question...when I read on the back of a bottle (and, do I trust
>what I read?), "hint of pepper, blackberries, tobacco", or whatever...with
>regard to making of wine, are these things ADDED to the wine, and what it's
>aged in? I mean, they must be, right? How could the same variety of grapes
>be SO different from region to region...or maybe I'm wrong...climate and
>environment makes such a difference.

With the limited, though possible exception of oak chips having come in
contact with the wine during fermentation, or aging, nothing is added. The
elements exist in the wine naturally, though through the winemaker's art and
skill some may be intensified, while some diminished.

As to aging, some wine is aged in wooden barrels, usually oak, some in
stainless steel, and some in glass, usually the bottle that you took it home
in.

Yes, the grape can exhibit totally different characteristics, depending on
where it is grown, and how it is handled during it growth, harvest,
vinification, aging, and even transport. Though beyond your stated price
range, the differences between the Diamond Creek Cabs from Gravelly Meadow,
Red Rock Terrace, and Volcanic Hill (all within a contiguous 22 acre parcel of
land in Napa Valley, near Calistoga) are easily found. Same grapes, same lat/
lon, same year, same winemaker, all within 22 acres - three different wines.
Many, many examples of similar exist. Hillside v valley floor, North facing v
West facing, higher up a hillside v lower, but still on the same hillside -
all of these factors can and usually do come into play. Now a winemaker may
choose to diminish an aspect, or accentuate another, thus clouding the
differences a bit, but they are there.
>
>In my limited travels, some of the stuff I have really liked is as
>follows...(please forgive spelling mistakes)
>
>Sausal Zinfandel, from California, I believe, Goat-Rotie, from South Africa,
>pretty much anything from Nederberg, once again, South Africa...I USED to
>like Yellow Tail, but now eschew it as pretty much junk, now that I've had a
>lot of other choices...I'm afraid of almost anything I see a LOT of at the
>store, looks too mass produced...from SA, anythign with KVM makes me shy
>away...

Don't know the Sausal Zin. I have seen, but not had the Goat-Rotie, AWA the
Nederberg. SA is producing some good wines, but we don't get the full
portfolio in AZ/US. I agree about the co-op, KWV. If you can find it, I'd like
to recommend the Glen Carlou Grand Classique (Bordeaux blend) from Paarl. It
was, when available in PHX, AZ US$12.97/btl. and worth more than 3x that
price. Costco (retailer) has not carried it at any store local to me, so I do
not know about its US importation, distribution. Glad I still have some left.
Never tried it with much age, but now have a few leftovers with about an extra
year in cellar.
>
>One thing I really enjoyed the other day was a Vassey Felix Shiraz from
>Australia...Now that time I could REALLY taste a pepper flavor...was I
>wrong? I've only found one store that has that...hard to find...

Don't know this one, but Shiraz/Syrah can definitely exhibit some pepper,
usually black pepper. One experiment would be to gather an Aussie Shiraz, a US
Syrah, and a FR Rhône Syrah (a bit tough in the price range, but look and ask
around). Try each one in a three-way taste-off. All will be vastly different.
Same grape, different place.
>
>Liked a cab from Argentina...Catena? Not sure...A Norton Malbec, once again
>from Argentina, was pretty good.

The Norton is a nice Malbec. Almost any Mendoza region Malbec will be nice.
>
>And, amidst all these deep dark red wines, I also like a nice light, crisp
>Sav Blanc sometimes. RH Philips comes to mind...

Again, taste the Philips next to a Kim Crawford, Marlbourough, NZ SB and see
the difference. This all goes back to your earlier question about "place."
>
>I'm just afraid of wasting money...which I don't have a lot of...even for
>one bottle...

If you enjoy wine, then you are not wasting your money. We always decide on a
"house wine," and pick a red and a white - well, maybe a few reds and a few
whites, but you get the point. These are "value wines" for us. We buy them by
the case and they are meant for friendly sipping after work, before dinner (
sometimes during dinner, but we usually get fairly specific with the "food
wines."), basically whenever we feel like a glass of wine and only want
pleasure and comfort, not something to contemplate and get "deep" over. Years
ago, we set the budget at US$4.50/btl for a basic white, and did 2 cases,
totally mixed, Chards, SB's, Pinot Gris/Grigio, Sémillon, and a few others. We
didn't care about the "value," as each was under $4.50 at the time. We decided
on a Chardonnay. For about ten years we did about the same thing. The cost/btl
went up for inflation and, honestly, based on our changing tastes. Our "house
white" is ~US$20.95/btl. The "house reds" range from ~US$ 8.00 - $30. We don't
do the taste-off anymore (in Colorado, USA, it was a bit seasonal, as whites
were more often consumed in late Spring, through early Autumn and in AZ, one
can readily drink whites year around.), but compare notes and just go for what
we like.

If you can work with a retailer, who really cares about what he/she sells, and
listens to their clients, try a few "mixed" cases. Give them a budget, some
likes and some dislikes, and trust them to pick some wines to try. Some you
will like, some you will wonder what's the deal. Don't worry. Try to find the
good from each, as you did pay money for them. Get the most that you can, even
if it's a US$4.00 bottle of wine. Make note of the wines that you do like.
Note where they came from, which varietal they are made from, which winery
made them, etc. You will probably find a pattern developing. As you explore,
you will probably find a way to expand your wine budget - car payments missed
..... Dr's bill going unpaid... mortgage delinquent... nah, it's not THAT bad.

Most of all, ENJOY
>
>What are my options...
>
>Sorry for the rambling post...
>
>Jeff

One thing you might wish to do, Jeff, is let the subscribers know where you
live. As this is an international NG, there are folk from almost every time
zone reading the posts. It doesn't help for someone in Hong Kong to recommend
a wine that is not imported to your country. I see that you used "$" and I do
not know where Comcast offers services, but you could be in US, OZ, CA, or
maybe one of the US protectorate island. It's also helpful to know what region
one is in, as wines that are available all over Southern CA (California this
time) might not be sold in Southern FL.

Hunt

--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth

> Well, that would be out my price range for the average evening, and then,
> yes, maybe it's just too much for me then, to really enjoy wine, because $20
> a bottle, for something really "exciting" is too much...

So then spread it out. Don't drink as much in an evening, pour the rest
into a smaller bottle (like a split or a few beer bottles) so that there
is very little air, then recork them for the next day. It's much better
to have a glass from a $20 bottle ($5) than an entire $10 bottle ($10
plus the asprin

> So, a Shyrah from California, that can be so very smooth and fruity (if I
> get the term right) can be SO different from the Australian Shiraz that I
> had that had a REALLY pronounced "bite" to it (and not from tanin), is
> mostly because of growing conditions and climate, and not from something
> that was added?

Yep.

And it's "syrah" from California, the same grape as "shiraz" from Austraila.

Over the course of the next (however long it takes), try a variety of
common wine types. For me, I would pick California wines because I go
there often and they are very good. Also they are named for their
grape, rather than the region, so this gives me a way to tell them
apart. You could do the same with, say, France, or Italy. They name
their wines for the region (and each regional name, or "appelation" has
rules about how the wine should be made). This will limit the namespace
while affording you a wide winespace.

Visit this site (or others like it):
http://www.telluriderestaurant.com/wines.php
(it's the wine page from one of my favorite restaurants) for hints as to
which wines go best (and worst) with which foods, and start there.

One bottle can easily last for four meals, especially if you rebottle
them into small bottles to keep the air out, and/or get a Vac-U-Vin wine
stopper system (about $10, and $5 for two more stoppers).

After opening, store the wine in the refrigerator. For red wines, you
can warm them up (from the fridge) by pouring out a glass into an
ordinary glass glass and popping it in the microwave for five to ten
seconds - just enough to take the chill out. Don't cook it!

This way you can enjoy a $20 bottle of wine over the course of a week or
three, and even compare different wines with different foods.

You can't learn about wine without drinking it, and you can't learn
about good wine by drinking poor wine (which doesn't mean cheap wine -
there are good inexpensive wines, and bad costly ones)

Keep notes. It might even help to get a list of wine terms (flavors,
armoas, etc) to cue you and see if you can detect them in the wine. But
mostly don't sweat it. Enjoy it. (One of my tests is to see how much
of the bottle is left after a meal

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

JR wrote:

> Ah, we can not detect sarcasm.
>
> And, thus, ends my brief time in alt.food.wine...

Don't let one tool chase you away from a normally very friendly,
knowledgeable group of people. Hang around, talk about what you drank
last night and ignore UC because he's mostly full of crap.

Andy

JR:

Trying to learn everything about wine on $10/bottle simply is not
possible.

JR wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Liked a cab from Argentina...Catena? Not sure...A Norton Malbec, once
> >> >> again
> >> >> from Argentina, was pretty good.
> >> >
> >> > 'Cab'? Are you trying to be hip?
> >>
> >> Yes.
> >
> > Please stop, Dave.
>
> Ah, we can not detect sarcasm.
>
> And, thus, ends my brief time in alt.food.wine...

Hunt wrote:
> In article >, jrich7970@hotmail.
> com says...
> >
> >Hello folks,
> >
> >I have a few questions regarding wines in general, then, just other
> >questions...
> >
> >The whole wine jargon is a language unto itself...I'm a tech guy, and can
> >understand how stuff like this happens...
>
> The jargon really isn't necessary to the enjoyment of wine. About the only
> help that it will provide is trying to describe what you like to a retailer,
> or wine-steward - or when describing a wine that you like, or did not like, in
> a forum/NG like this. Not that there is anything wrong with it, one just
> doesn't need to get too hung up on it. The more you learn about wine in
> general, the more that you will begin to look for descriptors to get more of
> what you like. You will find the jargon creeping in, in time.

That's not necessarily true. I refuse to use wine jargon, even though I
am familiar with it. I never 'talk shop' in a wine shop, never refer to
Cabernet Sauvignon as 'cab', or talk about 'nose', etc. I use ordinary
English. My conversations with wine-shop people (many of whom are very
knowledgeable) consist of simply comparisons (is it more like Chianti
Classico or Chianti Rufina?) or general questions about the vintage
year of the bottle in question, or the background, if known, of the
particular producer.

JR wrote:

> I have a few questions regarding wines in general, then, just other
> questions...
>
> The whole wine jargon is a language unto itself...I'm a tech guy, and
> can understand how stuff like this happens...
>
> I mean, I know "nose", etc, but, how you guys can "detect" butter,
> pepper, blackberries, whatever amazes me...


Some can and some can't. And an aroma that one person detects may not be
detected by the next person. The name that one person gives an aroma may
even be different from what the next person calls it.

My advice is not to worry about it. If you find a wine writer who gives a
name to a certain aroma that you also detect and think is an appropriate
name, then fine; you can rely on that writer's use of the word. But someone
else may use the same word in a completely different way. We all have
different palates and different noses, and react differently to tastes,
smells, etc.



> In general, when I go to the liquor store, I don't generally want to
> spend more than $10, but I also realize that this may be, essentially,
> ridiculous...


Not at all. If you enjoy the wines that you can buy at price point X
(whatever X may be), that's just fine, and nobody else's opinion matters. I
personally think there are lots of decent (but not great) wines for under
$10, and that's what I drink most of the time. Although I'd like to have
better wines, my pocketbook doesn't permit me to buy them every day.


> although, if I'm just sitting at home having a bottle of
> wine with my wife on a Saturday night, that might be acceptable.


Ok course.


> Here's a question...when I read on the back of a bottle (and, do I
> trust what I read?),


Remember that whatever stuff like this you read on the bottle itself, rather
than by an independent wine writer, is nothing but advertising. Do you
always trust advertising?


> "hint of pepper, blackberries, tobacco", or
> whatever...with regard to making of wine, are these things ADDED to
> the wine, and what it's aged in? I mean, they must be, right?


No, they are not. In fact adding such things to wines is generally illegal.


> How
> could the same variety of grapes be SO different from region to
> region...or maybe I'm wrong...climate and environment makes such a
> difference.


Lots of factors: climate, environment, soil, the age of the vines, the
weather that year, the winemaking techniques, the skill of the winemaker,
the particular vintage, age of the wine, etc.


> I'm just afraid of wasting money...which I don't have a lot of...even
> for one bottle...


Finding wines you like can be difficult, and unless you stick with the same
things you already know you like, you're going to waste money now and then
(maybe sometimes even if you do stick with what you know you like; there are
some bad bottles). One good technique for finding new wines to try is going
to organized wine tasting, where you can try several wines of the same type
and compare them to each other.

--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup

Ken Blake wrote:
> JR wrote:
>
> > I have a few questions regarding wines in general, then, just other
> > questions...
> >
> > The whole wine jargon is a language unto itself...I'm a tech guy, and
> > can understand how stuff like this happens...
> >
> > I mean, I know "nose", etc, but, how you guys can "detect" butter,
> > pepper, blackberries, whatever amazes me...
>
>
> Some can and some can't. And an aroma that one person detects may not be
> detected by the next person. The name that one person gives an aroma may
> even be different from what the next person calls it.
>
> My advice is not to worry about it. If you find a wine writer who gives a
> name to a certain aroma that you also detect and think is an appropriate
> name, then fine; you can rely on that writer's use of the word. But someone
> else may use the same word in a completely different way. We all have
> different palates and different noses, and react differently to tastes,
> smells, etc.

One definition of a gentleman is someone who knows how to play the
bagpipes, but does not.

A gentleman notices the wine's aroma, but does not talk about it. A
wink, nod, or glass lifted to the host is all that is required. Anyone
who would sit at the table, swirl the glass in an grand sweeping
gesture, shove his nose deep into the glass, and exclaim: "WOW! Check
out that nose! It really smells like floor polish, roses, fluoride
toothpaste, and hair bleach!" would be drawing attention to his
complete lack of culture and refinement.

> > In general, when I go to the liquor store, I don't generally want to
> > spend more than $10, but I also realize that this may be, essentially,
> > ridiculous...
>
>
> Not at all. If you enjoy the wines that you can buy at price point X
> (whatever X may be), that's just fine, and nobody else's opinion matters. I
> personally think there are lots of decent (but not great) wines for under
> $10, and that's what I drink most of the time. Although I'd like to have
> better wines, my pocketbook doesn't permit me to buy them every day.
>

Same here. A $20 bottle twice a month is better than crap every day.

Salut/Hi Jeff,

le/on Tue, 28 Mar 2006 19:25:22 -0500, tu disais/you said:-

>Hello folks,
>
>I have a few questions regarding wines in general, then, just other
>questions...

The first thing to say is that you should pay no attention to the guy
posting under the name of Uranium committee. His views are "idiosyncratic"
and at odds with the experience of almost everyone else here.

So read what the others have to say and dialogue with them.

>The whole wine jargon is a language unto itself...I'm a tech guy, and can
>understand how stuff like this happens...

>I mean, I know "nose", etc, but, how you guys can "detect" butter, pepper,
>blackberries, whatever amazes me...

When you meet a wine with that caracteristic, you will know. But it's also
true that sometimes, we use words that are the closest approximation we have
to the smell or the taste we get on a wine. Buttery is one such. If you've
ever had a "buttery" chardonnay, you'll say AHA!!! I SEE what they mean,
even if it doesn't really taste or smell like butter.

>Here's a question...when I read on the back of a bottle (and, do I trust
>what I read?), "hint of pepper, blackberries, tobacco", or whatever...with
>regard to making of wine, are these things ADDED to the wine, and what it's
>aged in? I mean, they must be, right? How could the same variety of grapes
>be SO different from region to region...or maybe I'm wrong...climate and
>environment makes such a difference.

Sometimes people writing descriptors on wines are a little more concerned to
please the winemaker, than to describe the wine. But I've certainly had
wines which had a distinctly peppery taste, others with a real blackberry
taste and yet others with a smell that could only be described as "reminding
me of tobacco".

No, these flavours are NOT added. The same variety of grape certainly does
vary widely, in flavour as to why... all sort of reasons. The grapevine is
grown on different subsoils, with different amounts of exposure to the air
and sun, some places will reduce the yield, Then there is winery technique.
Crushing or not, what fermentation temperature and so on, there are myriad
variables all of which can affect the flavour.


>I'm just afraid of wasting money...which I don't have a lot of...even for
>one bottle...

I don't blame you. But many here will give you good advice, though it might
help if you say what part of the world you live in. We've got people in
France, Austria, Australia, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, the UK and Canada -
just off the top of my head. oh... and a few from the USA as well.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Hello ,

> One definition of a gentleman is someone who knows how to play the
> bagpipes, but does not.
>
> A gentleman notices the wine's aroma, but does not talk about it. A
> wink, nod, or glass lifted to the host is all that is required. Anyone
> who would sit at the table, swirl the glass in an grand sweeping
> gesture, shove his nose deep into the glass, and exclaim: "WOW! Check
> out that nose! It really smells like floor polish, roses, fluoride
> toothpaste, and hair bleach!" would be drawing attention to his
> complete lack of culture and refinement.

The need to point out another's lack of refinement is, well, ...

Hello ,

> I am familiar with it. I never 'talk shop' in a wine shop, never refer
> to Cabernet Sauvignon as 'cab', or talk about 'nose', etc. I use
> ordinary English. My conversations with wine-shop people (many of whom
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> are very knowledgeable) consist of simply comparisons (is it more like
> Chianti Classico or Chianti Rufina?) or general questions about the

Which of the following words are "ordinary English"?

- Cabernet
- Sauvignon
- Chianti
- Classico
- Rufina

You sure you don't use wine jargon?

Hal Burton wrote:
> Hello ,
>
> > I am familiar with it. I never 'talk shop' in a wine shop, never refer
> > to Cabernet Sauvignon as 'cab', or talk about 'nose', etc. I use
> > ordinary English. My conversations with wine-shop people (many of whom
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > are very knowledgeable) consist of simply comparisons (is it more like
> > Chianti Classico or Chianti Rufina?) or general questions about the
>
> Which of the following words are "ordinary English"?
>
> - Cabernet
> - Sauvignon
> - Chianti
> - Classico
> - Rufina
>
> You sure you don't use wine jargon?

You know perfectly well what I mean by 'jargon': 'legs', 'nose',
'earthy', 'jammy', etc. Of course, there's 'interesting', a polite term
used to describe an unpleasant wine that someone else has purchased.

The names of grapes or wines or places are not 'jargon'.

"Ian Hoare" > wrote in message
...
> Salut/Hi Jeff,
>
> le/on Tue, 28 Mar 2006 19:25:22 -0500, tu disais/you said:-
>
>>Hello folks,
>>
>>I have a few questions regarding wines in general, then, just other
>>questions...
>
> The first thing to say is that you should pay no attention to the guy
> posting under the name of Uranium committee. His views are "idiosyncratic"
> and at odds with the experience of almost everyone else here.

Well, I'm not one to judge immediately...but, given a few times, that's a
different story. Maybe Mr. Committee is having a bad evening.

>
> When you meet a wine with that caracteristic, you will know. But it's also
> true that sometimes, we use words that are the closest approximation we
> have
> to the smell or the taste we get on a wine. Buttery is one such. If you've
> ever had a "buttery" chardonnay, you'll say AHA!!! I SEE what they mean,
> even if it doesn't really taste or smell like butter.

Well, I was at a wine tasting once and had a chardonnay (can't remember what
it was, but it was from California and unoaked), and it did have a buttery
taste. I think that one I might be able to figure out. :-) I do recall it
being much smoother than the standard chardonnay that I'm used to.

> Sometimes people writing descriptors on wines are a little more concerned
> to
> please the winemaker, than to describe the wine. But I've certainly had
> wines which had a distinctly peppery taste, others with a real blackberry
> taste and yet others with a smell that could only be described as
> "reminding
> me of tobacco".
>
> No, these flavours are NOT added. The same variety of grape certainly does
> vary widely, in flavour as to why... all sort of reasons. The grapevine is

I find this very interesting. I figured that tastes could differ subtly
based on conditions...I had no idea they could vary so much.

>
>>I'm just afraid of wasting money...which I don't have a lot of...even for
>>one bottle...
>
> I don't blame you. But many here will give you good advice, though it
> might
> help if you say what part of the world you live in. We've got people in
> France, Austria, Australia, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, the UK and
> Canada -
> just off the top of my head. oh... and a few from the USA as well.
>

New Jersey. US.

"JR" > wrote in message
. ..
> Hello folks,
>
> I have a few questions regarding wines in general, then, just other
> questions...
>
> The whole wine jargon is a language unto itself...I'm a tech guy, and can
> understand how stuff like this happens...
>
> I mean, I know "nose", etc, but, how you guys can "detect" butter, pepper,
> blackberries, whatever amazes me...
>
> In general, when I go to the liquor store, I don't generally want to spend
> more than $10, but I also realize that this may be, essentially,
> ridiculous...although, if I'm just sitting at home having a bottle of wine
> with my wife on a Saturday night, that might be acceptable.

Nothing wrong with $10 wines -- Sometimes it can be more difficult to find
one that you really enjoy but they're out there.

> Here's a question...when I read on the back of a bottle (and, do I trust
> what I read?), "hint of pepper, blackberries, tobacco", or whatever...with
> regard to making of wine, are these things ADDED to the wine, and what
> it's aged in? I mean, they must be, right? How could the same variety of
> grapes be SO different from region to region...or maybe I'm
> wrong...climate and environment makes such a difference.
>
> In my limited travels, some of the stuff I have really liked is as
> follows...(please forgive spelling mistakes)
>
> Sausal Zinfandel, from California, I believe, Goat-Rotie, from South
> Africa, pretty much anything from Nederberg, once again, South Africa...I
> USED to like Yellow Tail, but now eschew it as pretty much junk, now that
> I've had a lot of other choices...I'm afraid of almost anything I see a
> LOT of at the store, looks too mass produced...from SA, anythign with KVM
> makes me shy away...
>
> One thing I really enjoyed the other day was a Vassey Felix Shiraz from
> Australia...Now that time I could REALLY taste a pepper flavor...was I
> wrong? I've only found one store that has that...hard to find...

Australian Shiraz can be all over the board - Some of the mass produced
Rosemount/Lindemans is ok but I think that it's more intersting to find some
of the lesser knowns. I'll throw out a few names (but have no idea on
availablity).

Piller Box Red
Shotfire Ridge (might be slightly over your price point).

> Liked a cab from Argentina...Catena? Not sure...A Norton Malbec, once
> again from Argentina, was pretty good.
>
> And, amidst all these deep dark red wines, I also like a nice light, crisp
> Sav Blanc sometimes. RH Philips comes to mind...

Here are few NZ Sauvignon Blancs that should be in your price range:

Monkey Bay
Oyster Bay
Nobilo

> I'm just afraid of wasting money...which I don't have a lot of...even for
> one bottle...
>
> What are my options...
>
> Sorry for the rambling post...
>
> Jeff

And find a good local retailer that will listen to what you want and give
accurate suggestions -- with no shucking and jiving.

Mike P

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 22:09:10 -0500, "JR" >
wrote:

>> Sometimes people writing descriptors on wines are a little more concerned
>> to
>> please the winemaker, than to describe the wine. But I've certainly had
>> wines which had a distinctly peppery taste, others with a real blackberry
>> taste and yet others with a smell that could only be described as
>> "reminding
>> me of tobacco".
>>
>> No, these flavours are NOT added. The same variety of grape certainly does
>> vary widely, in flavour as to why... all sort of reasons. The grapevine is
>
>I find this very interesting. I figured that tastes could differ subtly
>based on conditions...I had no idea they could vary so much.

I would say that in general the the taste differences from the same
grape are subtle. And that is how it should be - if you want the
taste of tobacco, chew tobacco!. But these flavours people talk about
do exist.

Most cheaper wines are simply bland, or have primary fruit aromas,
e.g. Cab Sauv may well smell/taste of blackcurrant. Pay more are you
will get a wider spectrum of more distinct flavours from the same
grape, but I would not expect any one flavour to be clearly dominant.

BTW, note that *some* flavours *can* be added by winemakers, e.g. oak
chips *can* be used to give an oaky flavour, in warmer climates
tartaric acid is often used to give the wine a sharper taste, and a
few wines can be legally sweetened with sugar (Champagne, Sherry) or
grape juice (German wines). There may be one or two other examples,
but I think that is about it when it comes to flavour changing
additives.

--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher

"Mike P" > wrote in message
...
>
> "JR" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Hello folks,
>>
>
> Piller Box Red

I had this once and really liked it. There was a LOT of sediment in it, so
next time I'll decant it probably.

>

On 29 Mar 2006 16:56:28 -0800, wrote:

>
>Hal Burton wrote:
>> Hello ,
>>
>> > I am familiar with it. I never 'talk shop' in a wine shop, never refer
>> > to Cabernet Sauvignon as 'cab', or talk about 'nose', etc. I use
>> > ordinary English. My conversations with wine-shop people (many of whom
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> > are very knowledgeable) consist of simply comparisons (is it more like
>> > Chianti Classico or Chianti Rufina?) or general questions about the
>>
>> Which of the following words are "ordinary English"?
>>
>> - Cabernet
>> - Sauvignon
>> - Chianti
>> - Classico
>> - Rufina
>>
>> You sure you don't use wine jargon?
>
>You know perfectly well what I mean by 'jargon': 'legs', 'nose',
>'earthy', 'jammy', etc. Of course, there's 'interesting', a polite term
>used to describe an unpleasant wine that someone else has purchased.
>
> The names of grapes or wines or places are not 'jargon'.

I'm confused now. According to you I can have two bottles of Cabernet
Sauvignon. They can both be from Napa Valley, California. They can
both be from the same vintage. They come from two different vineyards.

Now, I've avoided jargon like descriptions of nose, legs, tastes,
smells, and even interesting. Which of the two wines is better?

It isn't jargon when someone discusses the sensory impressions they
experience when drinking (or, heaven forbid, comparatively tasting)
wine.

BTW, last night at dinner celebrating Mom-in-Law's 90th birthday at
Nicola's Italian eatery in Plano I enjoyed an inexpensive wine:

Remo Farina Valpolicella
Classico Superiore Ripasso

Dark brownish purple color, medium legs. Slight spice and leather on
the nose with just a hint of Italian funk. Warm opening on the tongue
with dark cherries, leather and a bit of cassis all with the big rich
characteristics of a ripasso. Was a real bargain at a restaurant price
of $36.

And, since you always insist on food--it accompanied first a
magnificent fusilli alla carbonara then a veal chop with pancetta and
mozzarella topping with a chianti reduction sauce.

Or, it was simply Italian wine.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Ed Rasimus wrote:
> On 29 Mar 2006 16:56:28 -0800, wrote:
>
> >
> >Hal Burton wrote:
> >> Hello ,
> >>
> >> > I am familiar with it. I never 'talk shop' in a wine shop, never refer
> >> > to Cabernet Sauvignon as 'cab', or talk about 'nose', etc. I use
> >> > ordinary English. My conversations with wine-shop people (many of whom
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> > are very knowledgeable) consist of simply comparisons (is it more like
> >> > Chianti Classico or Chianti Rufina?) or general questions about the
> >>
> >> Which of the following words are "ordinary English"?
> >>
> >> - Cabernet
> >> - Sauvignon
> >> - Chianti
> >> - Classico
> >> - Rufina
> >>
> >> You sure you don't use wine jargon?
> >
> >You know perfectly well what I mean by 'jargon': 'legs', 'nose',
> >'earthy', 'jammy', etc. Of course, there's 'interesting', a polite term
> >used to describe an unpleasant wine that someone else has purchased.
> >
> > The names of grapes or wines or places are not 'jargon'.
>
> I'm confused now. According to you I can have two bottles of Cabernet
> Sauvignon. They can both be from Napa Valley, California. They can
> both be from the same vintage. They come from two different vineyards.
>
> Now, I've avoided jargon like descriptions of nose, legs, tastes,
> smells, and even interesting. Which of the two wines is better?

Why must one be 'better'? Can't they simply be different?

> It isn't jargon when someone discusses the sensory impressions they
> experience when drinking (or, heaven forbid, comparatively tasting)
> wine.

I think discussing wine without the jargon is perfectly possible. I
don't really see that the jargon applies equally to all kinds of wines.
In other words, the jargon seems to be most applicable to wines from
Gaul, not Italy. Despite more than 30 years of experience in drinking
wines, I still don't recognize the tastes that correspond to some of
these terms. I do thing that 'length' and 'finish' are clear enough,
but I don't quite get 'warm', 'elegant' 'structured', 'leather', 'tar',
etc. I simply do not associate wine flavors or aromas with other things
at all, and I find the terms simply not useful.

Describe a Valtellina or Taurasi to me, in the way that you usually
would, using the jargon. I cannot, but I can certainly recognize
Valtellina or Taurasi!

> BTW, last night at dinner celebrating Mom-in-Law's 90th birthday at
> Nicola's Italian eatery in Plano I enjoyed an inexpensive wine:
>
> Remo Farina Valpolicella
> Classico Superiore Ripasso

Ripasso?

> Dark brownish purple color, medium legs. Slight spice and leather on
> the nose with just a hint of Italian funk. Warm opening on the tongue
> with dark cherries, leather and a bit of cassis all with the big rich
> characteristics of a ripasso. Was a real bargain at a restaurant price
> of $36.
>
> And, since you always insist on food--it accompanied first a
> magnificent fusilli alla carbonara then a veal chop with pancetta and
> mozzarella topping with a chianti reduction sauce.
>
> Or, it was simply Italian wine.
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org
> www.thundertales.blogspot.com

In article .com>,
says...
>
>
>Ed Rasimus wrote:
>> On 29 Mar 2006 16:56:28 -0800, wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Hal Burton wrote:
>> >> Hello ,
>> >>
>> >> > I am familiar with it. I never 'talk shop' in a wine shop, never refer
>> >> > to Cabernet Sauvignon as 'cab', or talk about 'nose', etc. I use
>> >> > ordinary English. My conversations with wine-shop people (many of whom
>> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >> > are very knowledgeable) consist of simply comparisons (is it more like
>> >> > Chianti Classico or Chianti Rufina?) or general questions about the
>> >>
>> >> Which of the following words are "ordinary English"?
>> >>
>> >> - Cabernet
>> >> - Sauvignon
>> >> - Chianti
>> >> - Classico
>> >> - Rufina
>> >>
>> >> You sure you don't use wine jargon?
>> >
>> >You know perfectly well what I mean by 'jargon': 'legs', 'nose',
>> >'earthy', 'jammy', etc. Of course, there's 'interesting', a polite term
>> >used to describe an unpleasant wine that someone else has purchased.
>> >
>> > The names of grapes or wines or places are not 'jargon'.
>>
>> I'm confused now. According to you I can have two bottles of Cabernet
>> Sauvignon. They can both be from Napa Valley, California. They can
>> both be from the same vintage. They come from two different vineyards.
>>
>> Now, I've avoided jargon like descriptions of nose, legs, tastes,
>> smells, and even interesting. Which of the two wines is better?
>
>Why must one be 'better'? Can't they simply be different?
>
>> It isn't jargon when someone discusses the sensory impressions they
>> experience when drinking (or, heaven forbid, comparatively tasting)
>> wine.
>
>I think discussing wine without the jargon is perfectly possible. I
>don't really see that the jargon applies equally to all kinds of wines.
>In other words, the jargon seems to be most applicable to wines from
>Gaul, not Italy. Despite more than 30 years of experience in drinking
>wines, I still don't recognize the tastes that correspond to some of
>these terms. I do thing [SIC] that 'length' and 'finish' are clear enough,
>but I don't quite get 'warm', 'elegant' 'structured', 'leather', 'tar',
>etc. I simply do not associate wine flavors or aromas with other things
>at all, and I find the terms simply not useful.
>
>Describe a Valtellina or Taurasi to me, in the way that you usually
>would, using the jargon. I cannot, but I can certainly recognize
>Valtellina or Taurasi!
>
>> BTW, last night at dinner celebrating Mom-in-Law's 90th birthday at
>> Nicola's Italian eatery in Plano I enjoyed an inexpensive wine:
>>
>> Remo Farina Valpolicella
>> Classico Superiore Ripasso
>
>Ripasso?

[SNIP]

"http://www.wineloverspage.com/sheralschowe/ripasso.shtml

BTW, the word in "think."

Hunt

--
NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth

Hunt wrote:
>
>
> "http://www.wineloverspage.com/sheralschowe/ripasso.shtml
>
> BTW, the word in "think."

Yeth, I gnow!

>
> Hunt
>
> --
> NewsGuy.Com 30Gb $9.95 Carry Forward and On Demand Bandwidth

On 30 Mar 2006 09:56:14 -0800, wrote:

>I know what Ripasso is. I was just surprised that someone paid $36 for
>it! I didn't think it was that expensive!

And, what do you customarily pay for a mid-grade ripasso in a
restaurant? A quick web-search turned up the wine selling in several
locations at $18/bottle. 2X is pretty typical for restaurant markup
and actually a bit low for many these days.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Ed Rasimus wrote:
> On 30 Mar 2006 09:56:14 -0800, wrote:
>
> >I know what Ripasso is. I was just surprised that someone paid $36 for
> >it! I didn't think it was that expensive!
>
> And, what do you customarily pay for a mid-grade ripasso in a
> restaurant? A quick web-search turned up the wine selling in several
> locations at $18/bottle. 2X is pretty typical for restaurant markup
> and actually a bit low for many these days.

That's what I meant! It's only about $18-20 in stores.

What gouging!

>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org
> www.thundertales.blogspot.com

On 30 Mar 2006 10:11:51 -0800, wrote:

>
>Ed Rasimus wrote:
>> On 30 Mar 2006 09:56:14 -0800, wrote:
>>
>> >I know what Ripasso is. I was just surprised that someone paid $36 for
>> >it! I didn't think it was that expensive!
>>
>> And, what do you customarily pay for a mid-grade ripasso in a
>> restaurant? A quick web-search turned up the wine selling in several
>> locations at $18/bottle. 2X is pretty typical for restaurant markup
>> and actually a bit low for many these days.
>
>That's what I meant! It's only about $18-20 in stores.
>
>What gouging!
>
You don't get out much do you?

When you get glasses to drink it from, a tablecloth, napkin, someone
to bring it to you and pull the cork then pour, there is a bit of
overhead involved. I don't mind it.

Good food and wine, well served and prepared in nice surroundings are
their own reward. YMMV.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

> That's what I meant! It's only about $18-20 in stores.

You know, I can get a dozen eggs at the store for a buck or so. If I go
into a restaurant, it costs me five dollars and I only get two eggs.
And we won't even go into potatoes.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
> > That's what I meant! It's only about $18-20 in stores.
>
> You know, I can get a dozen eggs at the store for a buck or so. If I go
> into a restaurant, it costs me five dollars and I only get two eggs.
> And we won't even go into potatoes.
>

But the restaurant does nothing more to the wine than a store does...

> Jose
> --
> Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

> But the restaurant does nothing more to the wine than a store does...

The restaurant provides a place to drink it, washes the glass, chills
the wine, heats or airconditions the building, keeps the riffraff out,
and (most important to you) provides food to go with the wine, so the
restaurant saves you from the gross indignity of merely "tasting", but
allows you the full-bodied pleasure of =drinking= it.

Try that at a wine store.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

> The mark-up of the wine at 150% of cost is more than enough.

Why should wine be marked up any less than shoes, books, tunafish cans,
or pool covers? Typical retail markup doubles the price at every stage.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
> > The mark-up of the wine at 150% of cost is more than enough.
>
> Why should wine be marked up any less than shoes, books, tunafish cans,
> or pool covers? Typical retail markup doubles the price at every stage.

Not true at all. Typically about 20-30% on perishable items such as
photographic film, much less on raw food from the grocery (2-10%).


>
> Jose
> --
> Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

> much less on raw food from the grocery (2-10%)

Grocery stores (and big boxes) are the exception. Retail stores on Main
Street usually double, to first order.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

When was the last time you were in a restaurant......1970? These
restaurant wine mark-ups have been standard for years in most parts of
the US and Europe.


wrote:
> The mark-up of the wine at 150% of cost is more than enough. 250% is
> ridiculous! If wholesale is $12, retail is $18. That should be enough
> for a restaurant too! $36 is unacceptable.
>
>
> Jose wrote:
> > > But the restaurant does nothing more to the wine than a store does...
> >
> > The restaurant provides a place to drink it, washes the glass, chills
> > the wine, heats or airconditions the building, keeps the riffraff out,
> > and (most important to you) provides food to go with the wine, so the
> > restaurant saves you from the gross indignity of merely "tasting", but
> > allows you the full-bodied pleasure of =drinking= it.
> >
> > Try that at a wine store.
> >
> > Jose
> > --
> > Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
> > for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Bi!! wrote:
> When was the last time you were in a restaurant......1970? These
> restaurant wine mark-ups have been standard for years in most parts of
> the US and Europe.

I know that, but I think they are excessive.

>
>
> wrote:
> > The mark-up of the wine at 150% of cost is more than enough. 250% is
> > ridiculous! If wholesale is $12, retail is $18. That should be enough
> > for a restaurant too! $36 is unacceptable.
> >
> >
> > Jose wrote:
> > > > But the restaurant does nothing more to the wine than a store does...
> > >
> > > The restaurant provides a place to drink it, washes the glass, chills
> > > the wine, heats or airconditions the building, keeps the riffraff out,
> > > and (most important to you) provides food to go with the wine, so the
> > > restaurant saves you from the gross indignity of merely "tasting", but
> > > allows you the full-bodied pleasure of =drinking= it.
> > >
> > > Try that at a wine store.
> > >
> > > Jose
> > > --
> > > Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
> > > for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

> I know that, but I think they are excessive.

How do you think prices should be set, and how should that rule be enforced?

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
> > I know that, but I think they are excessive.
>
> How do you think prices should be set, and how should that rule be enforced?

My refusing to pay them.

There is or was a restaurant here in Columbus that had a wine shop in
the back. You would go and pick out your bottle at state minumum and
bring it back to the table.

>
> Jose
> --
> Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

> My refusing to pay them.

Then everything is working as designed. Some refuse to pay, some decide
to pay, and the bargain is struck.

> There is or was a restaurant here in Columbus that had a wine shop in
> the back. You would go and pick out your bottle at state minumum and
> bring it back to the table.

That's cool.

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Salut/Hi Jeff,

I'm so glad you didn't do what you might have done after the stupid
reception you got - disappear from this NG.

le/on Wed, 29 Mar 2006 22:09:10 -0500, tu disais/you said:-

>Well, I'm not one to judge immediately...but, given a few times, that's a
>different story. Maybe Mr. Committee is having a bad evening.

Well, he knows a bit about Italian wines, but nevertheless his views about
so many other aspects surrounding wine are SO extreme that one can't trust
him on anything. If you want peace and quiet, put him in your kill file.
Some of us haven't learnt to do that yet and get involved in silly and
sterile arguments with him. Others keep an eye on what he says, if only to
be able to try to undo some of his damage.

>> to the smell or the taste we get on a wine. Buttery is one such. If you've
>> ever had a "buttery" chardonnay, you'll say AHA!!! I SEE what they mean,
>> even if it doesn't really taste or smell like butter.
>
>Well, I was at a wine tasting once and had a chardonnay (can't remember what
>it was, but it was from California and unoaked), and it did have a buttery
>taste.

Now it's interesting that you should say that, because most people say that
it's the oaked California Chardonnay's that show that characteristic, and if
you ask him, Mark Lipton will probably be able to tell you what the chemical
is that gives that flavour. However, if you found it in an unoaked
chardonnay, then that's where you foind it. I'm certainly not about to tell
you that you're wrong. :-)


>> No, these flavours are NOT added. The same variety of grape certainly does
>> vary widely, in flavour as to why... all sort of reasons. The grapevine is
>
>I find this very interesting. I figured that tastes could differ subtly
>based on conditions...I had no idea they could vary so much.

Well, I find myself in some difficulty here. I don't want to contradict
Steve here, but I find for example that the taste of a Pinot Noir based wine
from Alsace, from Burgundy, from Oregon, from the Central Otago valley in
New Zealand and from southern California are _widely different. I've been
lucky enough to taste all of these in the wineries, and - with the possible
exception of the New Zealand wine, would be prepared to taste blind and have
a fair idea of where they came from. I'm not going to pretend I'd never get
it wrong, but I think that the _average_ wines, if such a concept has any
meaning have quite characteristic differences. OK, the Pinot Noir is
notorious for showing up the effect of terroir, to the extent that you can
taste wines (and I've done it) made by the same Burgundy Grower in the same
year, from the same clone and vinified in the same way, from two parcels of
land only 100 yeards apart, and you can immediately taste the difference
between them. However, I think more or less the same could be said for the
Merlot, as grown in Washington State, in Pomerol, in Ticino and in Hungary.
Similarly the Malbec as grown in Bordeaux, in Cahors and in Argentina.
Everyone agrees that the Argentinian wines bear little relationship to the
wines grown from the same grapes in France.

All that said... there's probably more difference between wines made from
different grapes in the same vineyard than between the same grapes grown in
different vineyards. But only just - and a malicious tease could certainly
find exceptions that "proved the rule".

>>>I'm just afraid of wasting money...which I don't have a lot of...even for one bottle...

I don't think many of us are so wealthy that we can afford to waste a lot of
money on a bottle. Some are much better off than others, but no one wants to
buy bad value for money.

>New Jersey. US.

Well Dale Williams and Ewan McNay, to mention but two old timers here both
live nearby and I guess you'll find others who live in the same state and
who'd be delighted to suggest some wines to try.

By the way, when I was in Walla-Walla I tried the old Pillar Box Red and was
very favourably impressed with it. Excellent vfm. I think I even bought a
couple to take to California with me.

Don't be put off by sediment in a wine, by the way. It happens and it often
shows a wine that has been treated less harshly than most large scale
industrial wineries do.

Anyway, stick around and ask as many questions as you like. Mostly someone
will answer if they know. And - don't be put off by the egregious UC. Even
the USA has a few idiots living within its borders.


--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

Ian Hoare wrote:

>> Well, I was at a wine tasting once and had a chardonnay (can't remember what
>> it was, but it was from California and unoaked), and it did have a buttery
>> taste.
>
> Now it's interesting that you should say that, because most people say that
> it's the oaked California Chardonnay's that show that characteristic, and if
> you ask him, Mark Lipton will probably be able to tell you what the chemical
> is that gives that flavour. However, if you found it in an unoaked
> chardonnay, then that's where you foind it. I'm certainly not about to tell
> you that you're wrong. :-)

Sorry, Ian, but it's a common misconception that the oak imparts the
buttery character, whereas in fact it's a byproduct of the malolactic
fermentation that most Chandonnays are put through. It is perhaps
possible that, under some circumstances, oak could impart some butter
notes to a wine, but AFAIK it's not the norm (bonus: the name of the
molecule is diacetyl and is used to impart the butter flavor to
microwave popcorn -- it's a very interesting byproduct of ML)

> All that said... there's probably more difference between wines made from
> different grapes in the same vineyard than between the same grapes grown in
> different vineyards. But only just - and a malicious tease could certainly
> find exceptions that "proved the rule".

I'm not so sure, Ian (or perhaps I'm just being contrary today!). Think
of the situation in the Medoc, where from year to year the mix of grapes
may change quite dramatically, yet the overall character of the vineyard
is maintained well enough that experienced tasters can reliably identify
it in a blind tasting. That same may (or may not) be true in
Chateauneuf-du-Pape, too.

Mark Lipton