I have opened a Cabernet Sauvignon and it is truly
the most disappointing tasting wine I have had for
some time.
There was a distinct and unpleasant tannic taste which
I sensed was never there in a number of other types I
have purchased. Worse still the "perfume" on opening had
something which I can only call "petrol-like"
I left it to one side, with the resolve to try it after standing,
and although there was an expected improvement, it was
barely drinkable
The Label says:
Vin de Provence
Domaine Gypiere
2002
Vin Pays Du Var

Second release.

This seems to mean it's a "country wine", or one that has no
"appellation" certification?
What does "Second Release" mean?
Why would an uncertified wine be reserved?

Would you agree that French wine bought in England is overpriced
in the under ten pounds English range?

--
Streuth

I don't know about in England, but in the USA it does seem that there is
an awful lot of French plonk in the low price ranges. I had a really good
white from the Maconaisse today for $11 US, but that is the exception
rather than the rule. Mostly, if the bottle is under $30 US I've learned
not to expect much.


Dimitri

I don't know about in England, but in the USA it does seem that there is
an awful lot of French plonk in the low price ranges. I had a really good
white from the Maconaisse today for $11 US, but that is the exception
rather than the rule. Mostly, if the bottle is under $30 US I've learned
not to expect much.


Dimitri

"D. Gerasimatos" wrote in message
...

I don't know about in England, but in the USA it does seem that there is
an awful lot of French plonk in the low price ranges. I had a really good
white from the Maconaisse today for $11 US, but that is the exception
rather than the rule. Mostly, if the bottle is under $30 US I've learned
not to expect much.


Dimitri

Thanks for your input.
It seems that because I have had an infection, I am accused
by some at home of having an unreliable pallete. They agree
the wine was poor but not undrinkable.

--
Streuth

"D. Gerasimatos" wrote in message
...

I don't know about in England, but in the USA it does seem that there is
an awful lot of French plonk in the low price ranges. I had a really good
white from the Maconaisse today for $11 US, but that is the exception
rather than the rule. Mostly, if the bottle is under $30 US I've learned
not to expect much.


Dimitri

Thanks for your input.
It seems that because I have had an infection, I am accused
by some at home of having an unreliable pallete. They agree
the wine was poor but not undrinkable.

--
Streuth

D. Gerasimatos wrote:
I don't know about in England, but in the USA it does seem that there is
an awful lot of French plonk in the low price ranges. I had a really good
white from the Maconaisse today for $11 US, but that is the exception
rather than the rule. Mostly, if the bottle is under $30 US I've learned
not to expect much.

Dimitri,
Frankly, I'm surprised by that last statement. Of course, what you
get for your $ depends on where you live, where you shop and what your
tastes are. However, in Berkeley, Kermit Lynch, Vino! and Solano
Cellars all make a point of stocking some excellent French (and other)
wines that retail for well below $30. IME, it's actually far easier to
get a quality wine from Europe for under $20 than it is from the US.
Right now, I'd look for the following "budget" wines from France:

White:
'02 Cote Chalonnaise and Cote Maconnais
'02 Chablis (regular, not 1er or GC)*
'02 Muscadet, Vouvray**, Sancerre** and Pouilly-Fumé**

Red:
'01 Cotes du Rhone
'01 Bandol
'02 Bourgogne from selected producers***
'01 Costieres de Nimes
'01 Coteaux du Langeudoc
'02 Cru Beaujolais

*Kermit Lynch is selling Roland Lavantereux's Chablis for $16.
** There is an ocean of plonk from these Loire AOCs that reaches the US;
good advice from an honest retaier is required here
*** I've had good experiences recently with the Bourgognes of Robert
Chevillon and Anne Gros, but both are not easily found.

HTH
Mark Lipton

Vin de Pays wines can be very, very good, depending on who makes them.
Like anything else. There are a lot of terrible AOC wines made, too.
This reminds me of some people who assume that a film will be good
strictly because it's a French film. True, some of the best are French
films, but many porkers are also released there.

Vin de Pays wines can be very, very good, depending on who makes them.
Like anything else. There are a lot of terrible AOC wines made, too.
This reminds me of some people who assume that a film will be good
strictly because it's a French film. True, some of the best are French
films, but many porkers are also released there.

Dimitri,
Frankly, I'm surprised by that last statement. Of course, what you get
for your $ depends on where you live, where you shop and what your tastes
are. However, in Berkeley, Kermit Lynch, Vino! and Solano Cellars all
make a point of stocking some excellent French (and other) wines that
retail for well below $30. IME, it's actually far easier to get a quality
wine from Europe for under $20 than it is from the US. Right now, I'd look
for the following "budget" wines from France:
snip

Mark, I don't think that he is wrong.

France has its fair share of plonk ALONG WITH every other country at that
price range.

I wish you could buy first growths for $30 and we would not be having this
issue.

In message . com
wrote:

Vin de Pays wines can be very, very good, depending on who makes them.
Like anything else. There are a lot of terrible AOC wines made, too.
This reminds me of some people who assume that a film will be good
strictly because it's a French film. True, some of the best are French
films, but many porkers are also released there.


It also has to be remembered that AOC laws restrict the varietals which may
be planted so that some quite good wine made with "illegal" cépages is
available. This could be an example o such a wine since Cabernet Sauvignon
is not a varietal local to the Var! However — like Mike — and despite
having a wife from that part pf the world and having spent many a happy
summer exploring local wines rather than stay in with the in-laws — lovely
as they are — I have never seen, or heard of, this one.

Timothy Hartley

Thanks for the advice. I no longer live in Berkeley. I am familiar with
Kermit Lynch, but not the others. However, my comment stands based on my
experience. If I go to a tasting of cheaper French wines from lesser
appellations like the Loire, Bandol, or Languedoc in the $10-25 range I will
inevitably find one or two that I enjoy. However, that is not a good ratio when
tasting, say, eight wines.


As someone else said, there is a lot of plonk in that price range from
the USA, Italy, and Australia also. However, I am far more likely to
find a wine I like for $15 if it is from California than if it is from
France. It may just be a function of the exchange rate and/or shipping
costs.


Dimitri

Dick,
Mark certainly never denied there's an ocean of plonk from France. But
I'd agree with him that I find it easier to find French or Italian
wines on the low-end that I like that CA. To me $20 is the magic mark
for California- choices open up there. I'm not denying the QPR of the
Rex Goliath PN and a few others, but few is the operative work. Once
we're in the $20's we start looking at the Ridge single vineyards,
various Syrahs, etc. But under $20 the US market is thin.

For France, this would be my annotations to Mark's under $20 list:
White:
'02 Bourgognes from good producers (I've enjoyed Javiller, Cote
Chalonnaise and Cote Maconnais (the '02 Drouhin Macon is great for $7
if you can find it).
'02 Bourgogne Aligote from good producers (Lafarge, de Villaine)
'02 Chablis (Brocard, Moreau, or just about any good producer's
straight Chablis AC, or for just under $20 the Brocard or Savary 1ers)
Loi
'02 Muscadet (Pepiere, Luneau-Papin)
'02 Sancerre, Pouilly-Fum=E9=AC=A0Menetou-Salon (Thomas-Labaille, Pelle,
etc)
'02 Montlouis (Deletang, Chidaine)
I left off '02 Vouvray as only ones I've had are the excellent Huets,
which are more than $20. I'd add the Clos Roche Blanche Touraine if you
can find '02.

I personally enjoy Trimbach's base Riesling and Gewurz, but some find
them too austere. Lots of other good Alsace producers.

Red:
'01 Cotes du Rhone (d'Andezon is very good for $10, or Coudelet de
Beaucastel if you can find under $20).
'02 Bourgogne (Lafarge, Bachelet, Sylvie Esmonin, Chevillon,
d'Angerville) or wines from outlying villages like Marsannay, Santenay,
or Savigny (try Pavelot, Girardin, Bruno Clair, Bize, Ecard)
'02 Cru Beaujolais (Coudert/Roillete Fleurie rules! Plus Brun/Terres
Dorres, Lapierre)
'01 & '00 Bordeaux from satellites such as Cotes de Castillon, Fronsac,
Lalande de Pomerol- my current fave is the '01 Cap de Faugeres
Another personal favorite is the Les Heretiques from Andre Iche, a VdP
d'Oc at $7-8, or his Minervois at $9-10.
I also like red Loires, and '02s were good and it sounds like many '03s
too. Look for producers like Breton or Olga Raffault.

As noted, there's a lot of plonk out there. Offhand, I can't think of
any region in the world that isn't 50% plonk in the under-$20 range.
But learning producers you like is the key.

"DaleW" wrote in news:1113250293.037568.20280
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

Dick,
Mark certainly never denied there's an ocean of plonk from France. But
I'd agree with him that I find it easier to find French or Italian
wines on the low-end that I like that CA. To me $20 is the magic mark


As noted, there's a lot of plonk out there. Offhand, I can't think of
any region in the world that isn't 50% plonk in the under-$20 range.
But learning producers you like is the key.



This is the key. If I try to buy cheaper Australian or California wines, I
invariably dislike them (withthe excpetion of Bonny Doon), but I know which
wines and priducers, negociants and importers, I like from France and Italy
and am rarely disappointed. If my New World experience and tastes were up
to the standards of others here, I would probably find my mileage to be
different.

In article . com,
DaleW wrote:

'02 Chablis (Brocard, Moreau, or just about any good producer's
straight Chablis AC, or for just under $20 the Brocard or Savary 1ers)


I am afraid to strongly disagree with two very knowledgeable posters, but
I find most Chablis to be quite awful, even at the premier cru level.
I have said this here before, but I pretty much only find the wines of
the more famous producers like Raveneau and Dauvissat drinkable.


Sancerre, Pouilly-Fum=E9=AC=A0Menetou-Salon (Thomas-Labaille, Pelle,
etc)


Sure, sauvignon blanc is a cheap grape. However, in the US we can also
get some very good sauvignon blancs for $20. Australia and New Zealand
have also flooded the market with them. It's like saying that you can
find lots of good CA zinfandel cheaply. It's a cheap grape. Of course
you can.


I personally enjoy Trimbach's base Riesling and Gewurz, but some find
them too austere. Lots of other good Alsace producers.


I do not like this either (Trimbach).


'02 Cru Beaujolais (Coudert/Roillete Fleurie rules! Plus Brun/Terres
Dorres, Lapierre)


Not a big fan of most Beaujolais.


As noted, there's a lot of plonk out there. Offhand, I can't think of
any region in the world that isn't 50% plonk in the under-$20 range.
But learning producers you like is the key.


Of course everyone has their own tastes. In general, I can assume without
tasting that a cheap French wine is plonk. In fact, my girlfriend made
up a whole section in my wine-tasting notebook which she labeled "French
Swill" since so much of it is. That is not to say that American plonk
of the sort like "Mondavi Coastal" is good wine. However, given a choice
between a California wine I've never had before and an unknown French wine
for $15 I'll always choose the American wine before tasting. I have
verified with blind tastings that my palette is just not tuned to like
French plonk. Perhaps it is because even cheap California wine has some
intense fruit in it, whereas lots of cheap French wine tastes overwatered.


High-end French producers like Ramonet score well alongside high-end
California producers like Peter Michael. However, when you start to
get into the lower price ranges I feel that more often than not the
American wine will be the better of its counterpart. A pinot like
Patricia Green for $18 cannot be bettered by its French counterpart
in the same price range, IMO. In fact, I usually don't even bother with
the village wines, because the premier cru wines are so much better for
just a bit more money. To me, the difference between most AOC village wine
(forget vin de pays entirely) and premier cru is staggering.


That is not to say that cheap French wine is all bad. Quite a lot of it
is good. However, I definitely find a lot of CA wine I like in the $15-30
range and not much French wine I like at all in that range. Once you go
over that $30 mark then the field changes significantly, because that's
when you start getting into the premier crus (in Burgundy) and the better
wines in places like the Rhone, Condrieu, Alsace, and even Champagne.
Champagne is a good example, actually, because I think California
sparkling producers completely destroy anything produced in France in the
$10-20 range but at that point and beyond the French wine is the only wine
worth buying.


Dimitri

I have had plonk from all counties at all prices.

But here in Charlotte, NC it is hard to find French wines I typically buy
them when traveling out of state or in Chapel Hill , NC. However at A
southern seasons you find no French Plonk but thats due to the fact most is
very good classified wines.

I think since you live in NYC and Mark is now in California you guys are
spoiled.

No doubt there are excellent french wines in the under $20. I like a Rodet
Rully-red or while under $20....but good luck getting them here at that
price or available often.

Rarely do I find wines from California under $30 to my liking. French
around $50 +. Oregon $25+for PN.

Austrailia, Chili and Argentina have the best drinking wines under $20 in my
opinion.

Sorry to disagree.

That said there is no competition for a good Burg or top growth
bordeaux...good or bad year the only difference is when they peak. :-)




"DaleW" wrote in message
ups.com...
Dick,
Mark certainly never denied there's an ocean of plonk from France. But
I'd agree with him that I find it easier to find French or Italian
wines on the low-end that I like that CA. To me $20 is the magic mark
for California- choices open up there. I'm not denying the QPR of the
Rex Goliath PN and a few others, but few is the operative work. Once
we're in the $20's we start looking at the Ridge single vineyards,
various Syrahs, etc. But under $20 the US market is thin.

For France, this would be my annotations to Mark's under $20 list:
White:
'02 Bourgognes from good producers (I've enjoyed Javiller, Cote
Chalonnaise and Cote Maconnais (the '02 Drouhin Macon is great for $7
if you can find it).
'02 Bourgogne Aligote from good producers (Lafarge, de Villaine)
'02 Chablis (Brocard, Moreau, or just about any good producer's
straight Chablis AC, or for just under $20 the Brocard or Savary 1ers)
Loi
'02 Muscadet (Pepiere, Luneau-Papin)
'02 Sancerre, Pouilly-Fum?Menetou-Salon (Thomas-Labaille, Pelle,
etc)
'02 Montlouis (Deletang, Chidaine)
I left off '02 Vouvray as only ones I've had are the excellent Huets,
which are more than $20. I'd add the Clos Roche Blanche Touraine if you
can find '02.

I personally enjoy Trimbach's base Riesling and Gewurz, but some find
them too austere. Lots of other good Alsace producers.

Red:
'01 Cotes du Rhone (d'Andezon is very good for $10, or Coudelet de
Beaucastel if you can find under $20).
'02 Bourgogne (Lafarge, Bachelet, Sylvie Esmonin, Chevillon,
d'Angerville) or wines from outlying villages like Marsannay, Santenay,
or Savigny (try Pavelot, Girardin, Bruno Clair, Bize, Ecard)
'02 Cru Beaujolais (Coudert/Roillete Fleurie rules! Plus Brun/Terres
Dorres, Lapierre)
'01 & '00 Bordeaux from satellites such as Cotes de Castillon, Fronsac,
Lalande de Pomerol- my current fave is the '01 Cap de Faugeres
Another personal favorite is the Les Heretiques from Andre Iche, a VdP
d'Oc at $7-8, or his Minervois at $9-10.
I also like red Loires, and '02s were good and it sounds like many '03s
too. Look for producers like Breton or Olga Raffault.

As noted, there's a lot of plonk out there. Offhand, I can't think of
any region in the world that isn't 50% plonk in the under-$20 range.
But learning producers you like is the key.