With lemon chicken, the 2002 Hugel Gentil (Alsace). Not as aromatic as
some vintages, and possibly a tiny bit of residual sugar. Light bodied
and easy, a nice neutral canvas for the chicken. Unexciting, but okay
for $8. B-

My turn to cook Tuesday, I did pork chops in a sherry sauce. Wine was
the 2002 Nando Chianti Classico. Last month I was in a shop where I
sometimes find some bargain quaffers, read the review by a stack of
Chianti of the 2001 Nando. When I got home realized I had the '02
(register receipt did say '01). Oh well, I'll try. Hmm. This is not a
diluted wine as all reports of '02 Chiantis had led me to expect. But
it wasn't an especially pleasant wine. Hard cherry fruit, a
stemmy/green note to it. Good acidity, but hard and angular. B-/C+

The next night Betsy made a Tuscan meat sauce (with chicken livers,
pork, & veal), I upped the Tuscan ante with a 375 of 1999 Altesino
Brunello di Montalcino. Ah, this is more like it. Modern but clearly
Tuscan, explosive black cherry fruit with ripe fine tannins and good
acidity. Some oak, but not overwhelming. Smooth silky finish. Some
spice (dare I say Asian spice?) develops in glass. Good deal at
$25/half. The pasta and sauce was delicious, though the Brunello could
have used some roasted meat to shine. A-

Thursday some friends came for dinner, Betsy had prepared a pork
shoulder braised in apple cider with caramelized onions, along with
pasta with arugula. The 2003 Nigl Kremser Freiheit Gr=FCner Veltliner
(Kremstal) isn't as good as the 2002, but when I saw on sale for $10.xx
I had grabbed couple more. Soft and easy GV, light floral aromas and
pleasant white fruit. B/B-
A more hefty GV , maybe a Smaragd level, would have done a bit better
with the pork, but this was ok.

One of our guests is a red-only type, so I also opened the 2003 Les
Trois Chemins C=F4tes du Rh=F4ne. Light-colored, with rather ripe
strawberry fruit. Some air brings a little more muscular fruit, in the
raspberry direction to my tastes. I'm a little bored, but guest likes a
lot, and at $7 I won't complain. B/B-

Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent
wine, B a good wine, C mediocre. Anything below C means I wouldn't
drink at a party where it was only choice. Furthermore, I offer no
promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency

in article , DaleW at
wrote on 2/11/05 12:51 PM:

> With lemon chicken,
>>>>>>>>>>

> My turn to cook Tuesday, I did pork chops in a sherry sauce.
>>>>>>>
> The next night Betsy made a Tuscan meat sauce (with chicken livers,
> pork, & veal),
>>>>>>>
> Thursday some friends came for dinner, Betsy had prepared a pork
> shoulder braised in apple cider with caramelized onions, along with
> pasta with arugula.

Dale,

I read all your TN's with great interest and admire your ability to capture
the essence of each wine as you do. But it just occurred to me what is most
distracting for me...... your at-home menus are like fine dining
experiences.... every time. Please tell me you bring in an occasional
barbecued chicken from the supermarket, or that take-out pizza finds it's
way onto your menu from time to time. Please?

;o)

Well, when Betsy is away, I've brought home chicken from supermarket.
And pizza does occasionally hit our table. But in general the thing is
Betsy is even more food-obsessed than I am wine-obsessed. She is
constantly reading recipes and planning meals. It's her relaxation.
During the first part of opera season, when she has day rehearsals AND
night performances, my dinner choices get a bit duller.

On 11 Feb 2005 12:51:20 -0800, "DaleW" > wrote:

>stemmy/green note to it. Good acidity, but hard and angular. B-/C+
>
<large snip - please excuse>

Dale:

The words "hard and angular" are just the ones I have been looking for
to describe a wine that I have had for a while. I am rather new at
this so I couldn't quite find a name for what I was tasting. I am
curious if you know what the cause might be?

In my case it is a 2001 Pinot Noir from southwest Michigan. I have
tried a bottle each year since '02. I think I can recognize tannins
using the reference to tea and having tried several wines with tannin
designed to age. The tannins can be strong and give that drying
feeling but not what I would call harsh or "angular" as is my pinot.

I have also tasted wines high in acid, especially from up where we
live. Again I would not call them "hard and angular" but more "tart"
would be the word; as in drinking lemon juice.

I have thought possibly ascetic acid but it is not volatile and the
nose is quite pretty (if a little oaky). And I can't detect anything
that I could liken to vinegar.

I observe from reading this group that TCA usually presents itself as
a lack of fruit accompanied (if one has the nose for it) by various
musty off flavors (wet cardboard, dog etc.). I could find none of
these in the above Pinot. The fruit in the aroma seemed resonably
pleasant.

So I have been looking for the way to describe the sort of thing you
found in the Nando Chianti. I think "hard and angular" is it.

Does this represent some specific of flaw in winemaking? What might be
the cause of it, do you think?

Thanks,

Art Schubert
Traverse City, Michigan

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:41:07 -0500, Art Schubert
> wrote:

>On 11 Feb 2005 12:51:20 -0800, "DaleW" > wrote:
>
>>stemmy/green note to it. Good acidity, but hard and angular. B-/C+
>>
><large snip - please excuse>
>
>Dale:
>
>The words "hard and angular" are just the ones I have been looking for
>to describe a wine that I have had for a while. I am rather new at
>this so I couldn't quite find a name for what I was tasting. I am
>curious if you know what the cause might be?

The cause might be better addressed by the chemically inclined in the
group, but the terminology is an interesting one to discuss.
>
>In my case it is a 2001 Pinot Noir from southwest Michigan. I have
>tried a bottle each year since '02. I think I can recognize tannins
>using the reference to tea and having tried several wines with tannin
>designed to age. The tannins can be strong and give that drying
>feeling but not what I would call harsh or "angular" as is my pinot.

I'll agree that it isn't tannin--my view is similar to yours--tannins
give that astringent finish, the feeling that maybe your mouth has
been dusted with a light coating of talc. There's also the almost
puckery feel that you get with a young wine that hastened yet resolved
the tannins.

Most obvious comparison of tannins, with other factors held constant
was a tasting with dinner a few months ago of a range of 2002 Renwood
Zinfandels. All Zins, all the same vintner, all the same vintage. The
entry level wine, obviously for immediate drinking was nicely smooth
and gave up nice fruit and spicy zin character. The "Grandmere"--the
next to top end of the line was much fuller, heavier in the mouth and
with a whole lot more going on in terms of aromas, flavors and finish.
The "Grandpere"--the top of the line epitomized tannins. It was huge,
but almost unpleasant in the finish. This was a wine that would be
very likely a powerhouse in six to eight years, but really not ready
to be drunk yet.
>
>I have also tasted wines high in acid, especially from up where we
>live. Again I would not call them "hard and angular" but more "tart"
>would be the word; as in drinking lemon juice.

Agreed. Still not "hard and angular."
>
>I have thought possibly ascetic acid but it is not volatile and the
>nose is quite pretty (if a little oaky). And I can't detect anything
>that I could liken to vinegar.

Honestly, has anyone ever encountered a wine made for drinking that
had, ala cliche, "turned to vinegar"? Unintentionally? I've had wines
oxidize and maderize, but never turn to vinegar.
>
>I observe from reading this group that TCA usually presents itself as
>a lack of fruit accompanied (if one has the nose for it) by various
>musty off flavors (wet cardboard, dog etc.). I could find none of
>these in the above Pinot. The fruit in the aroma seemed resonably
>pleasant.

If you've got any sensitivity to TCA, you'll notice it. Some folks,
however, seem impervious. Others are so attuned that they can hardly
be in the same room with a corked bottle. It took me a while to learn
what to look for, but now it explains a lot about wines that I've
disliked in the past.
>
>So I have been looking for the way to describe the sort of thing you
>found in the Nando Chianti. I think "hard and angular" is it.
>
>Does this represent some specific of flaw in winemaking? What might be
>the cause of it, do you think?

Now, having preluded with all of that, what do I think "hard and
angular" is about? I'm thinking unripe fruit. Like fresh strawberries
early in the season versus those luscious fully ripe berries that
dribble juice down your chin. There's a hint of "greenness" in the
fruit. And, there some minerality, maybe flintiness, iron, copper,
etc. Terroir? Maybe.

The question is, while "hard and angular" recede over time--either
time in the glass or long term time in the bottle? If it does, then it
is a question of age rather than a winemaking flaw.

I don't think "h & a" is good for a red, but it is desireable in a lot
of whites.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

That's what I love about Dale's posts... They read like a fairy tale almost.
Here's my reality a bit exaggerated:

Last night Jen wouldn't get off the couch and told me to order Pizza again.
This time we went with the pepperoni from Joes house of pizza. For this
meal I selected a nice Barolo, because well you know, Italian food goes well
with Italian wine... Etc etc...


"Midlife" > wrote in message
...
> in article , DaleW at
> wrote on 2/11/05 12:51 PM:
>
>> With lemon chicken,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>> My turn to cook Tuesday, I did pork chops in a sherry sauce.
>>>>>>>>
>> The next night Betsy made a Tuscan meat sauce (with chicken livers,
>> pork, & veal),
>>>>>>>>
>> Thursday some friends came for dinner, Betsy had prepared a pork
>> shoulder braised in apple cider with caramelized onions, along with
>> pasta with arugula.
>
> Dale,
>
> I read all your TN's with great interest and admire your ability to
> capture
> the essence of each wine as you do. But it just occurred to me what is
> most
> distracting for me...... your at-home menus are like fine dining
> experiences.... every time. Please tell me you bring in an occasional
> barbecued chicken from the supermarket, or that take-out pizza finds it's
> way onto your menu from time to time. Please?
>
> ;o)
>

Ed Rasimus wrote:

> >
> >Does this represent some specific of flaw in winemaking? What might
be
> >the cause of it, do you think?
>
> Now, having preluded with all of that, what do I think "hard and
> angular" is about? I'm thinking unripe fruit. Like fresh strawberries
> early in the season versus those luscious fully ripe berries that
> dribble juice down your chin. There's a hint of "greenness" in the
> fruit. And, there some minerality, maybe flintiness, iron, copper,
> etc. Terroir? Maybe.
>
> The question is, while "hard and angular" recede over time--either
> time in the glass or long term time in the bottle? If it does, then
it
> is a question of age rather than a winemaking flaw.

Given that this is a wine from Michigan I would agree that the hard and
angular flavor is probably from unripe fruit. I taste it a lot in
wines from Michigan, Ohio etc. where the growing season is just not
quite long enough to produce fully ripe fruit especially in the
Vinifera varietals.

Art, my guess is that Ed and Bill nailed it. Not hard to imagine unripe
fruit in MI (I know in some parts it gets quite hot in summer, but my
impression is cool fall rolls in early). Now in Tuscany, normally
ripening isn't hard. But in 2002 there were hail storms which damaged
the crop, followed I think by rains. Probably only vintners who were
willing to be merciless about grape selection (with the attendant loss
of volume) made acceptable products (and I doubr anyone made stellar
ones).

"Art Schubert" > wrote in message
...
> The words "hard and angular" are just the ones I have been looking for
> to describe a wine that I have had for a while. I am rather new at
> this so I couldn't quite find a name for what I was tasting. I am
> curious if you know what the cause might be?

Underripeness in the fruit, typically.

Tom S

Tom S wrote:
> "Art Schubert" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>The words "hard and angular" are just the ones I have been looking for
>>to describe a wine that I have had for a while. I am rather new at
>>this so I couldn't quite find a name for what I was tasting. I am
>>curious if you know what the cause might be?
>
>
> Underripeness in the fruit, typically.
>
> Tom S
>
>

Would it be safe to say, Tom, that the "hard and angular" principal of
underripe fruit is the green tannins?

Mark Lipton

"Mark Lipton" > wrote in message
...
> Tom S wrote:
>> "Art Schubert" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>The words "hard and angular" are just the ones I have been looking for
>>>to describe a wine that I have had for a while. I am rather new at
>>>this so I couldn't quite find a name for what I was tasting. I am
>>>curious if you know what the cause might be?
>>
>>
>> Underripeness in the fruit, typically.
>>
>> Tom S
>
> Would it be safe to say, Tom, that the "hard and angular" principal of
> underripe fruit is the green tannins?

Hi, Mark -

Briefly, yes. :^)

Tom S

On 12 Feb 2005 14:58:57 -0800, "DaleW" > wrote:

>Art, my guess is that Ed and Bill nailed it. Not hard to imagine unripe
>fruit in MI (I know in some parts it gets quite hot in summer, but my
>impression is cool fall rolls in early). Now in Tuscany, normally
>ripening isn't hard. But in 2002 there were hail storms which damaged
>the crop, followed I think by rains. Probably only vintners who were
>willing to be merciless about grape selection (with the attendant loss
>of volume) made acceptable products (and I doubr anyone made stellar
>ones).

Thanks to all. It gives me something on which to hang the terms
"harsh" or "hard and angular". I will look for that greeness next
time.

True, it is tough to ripen vinifera here in MI. It can be done if the
weather cooperates and one is willing to risk picking near the end of
October. The lake can keep the freezes away if a site is close enough
to it. Still, I wonder if wines made here will ever be more than a
curiosity at best.


Art Schubert
Traverse City, Michigan

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:52:05 +0100, Mike Tommasi >
wrote:

>On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:05:51 -0800, Mark Lipton >
>wrote:
>
>>Tom S wrote:
>>> "Art Schubert" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>>The words "hard and angular" are just the ones I have been looking for
>>>>to describe a wine that I have had for a while. I am rather new at
>>>>this so I couldn't quite find a name for what I was tasting. I am
>>>>curious if you know what the cause might be?
>>>
>>>
>>> Underripeness in the fruit, typically.
>>>
>>> Tom S
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Would it be safe to say, Tom, that the "hard and angular" principal of
>>underripe fruit is the green tannins?
>>
>>Mark Lipton
>
>Underripeness in the fruit, yes, but in particular I would say
>underripeness of the stems. Sometimes the fruit is ripe but the stems
>are green, so if you do not destem there will be very hard tannins,
>but even after destemming the seeds will also impart that greenness.
>
>
>
>Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
>email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail

Very good. I have been de-stemming mine and trying to be especially
gentle with the seeds. We shall see.

Just a small follow-on. From the producer's web site: "Not a 'wimpy'
Pinot, this richly balanced wine has structure, backbone and muscle."

Don't creatures with lots of backbone and muscle tend to bite you?

I suppose once you have made a bunch of it you have to find a way to
convince people to buy it, regardless of its quality. Sad.


Art Schubert
Traverse City, Michigan

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:29:44 -0500, Art Schubert
> wrote:

>On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:52:05 +0100, Mike Tommasi >
>wrote:

>>Underripeness in the fruit, yes, but in particular I would say
>>underripeness of the stems. Sometimes the fruit is ripe but the stems
>>are green, so if you do not destem there will be very hard tannins,
>>but even after destemming the seeds will also impart that greenness.
>>
>>Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
>>email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
>
>Very good. I have been de-stemming mine and trying to be especially
>gentle with the seeds. We shall see.
>
>Just a small follow-on. From the producer's web site: "Not a 'wimpy'
>Pinot, this richly balanced wine has structure, backbone and muscle."
>
>Don't creatures with lots of backbone and muscle tend to bite you?

Not necessarily. Think more human and less animal. I like folks with
strength and backbone, while conversely I have little respect for
those who can't stand up for themselves or principles--get the
metaphor?

Ravenswood's motto for years has been "no wimpy wines", and although
they don't always achieve it (in my opinion) it certainly is a
commendable goal.
>
>I suppose once you have made a bunch of it you have to find a way to
>convince people to buy it, regardless of its quality. Sad.
>
>Art Schubert
>Traverse City, Michigan

Ahhh, now we begin to fulfill the picture. Your comments following
response to the initial question seem to indicate that you are seeking
to produce and you've gotten the "hard and angular" relating to your
product???

If so, your location is going to give you an uphill climb. You're on
the "lake effect" side of the "big sea water" and that can mean early
winters and late springs which translates into short growing seasons.
The Lake certainly tempers your climate, but a good season is going to
be more rare than in a lot of places.

But, if you persist, you can probably make reasonable wine--consider
the broad range of latitudes, altitudes, soils, etc. that have all
produced good wine.

To convince people to buy it, however, takes some marketing. That
might mean "loss leaders", advertising, competitions (and wins),
tasting events, wine shop promotions, years of consistency, etc. It's
a cliche that "overnight sensations" don't happen overnight. Good
luck.

And, the bill for consulting will arrive at the end of the month.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:53:20 -0700, Ed Rasimus
> wrote:

>On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:29:44 -0500, Art Schubert
> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:52:05 +0100, Mike Tommasi >
>>wrote:
>
>>>Underripeness in the fruit, yes, but in particular I would say
>>>underripeness of the stems. Sometimes the fruit is ripe but the stems
>>>are green, so if you do not destem there will be very hard tannins,
>>>but even after destemming the seeds will also impart that greenness.
>>>
>>>Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
>>>email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
>>
>>Very good. I have been de-stemming mine and trying to be especially
>>gentle with the seeds. We shall see.
>>
>>Just a small follow-on. From the producer's web site: "Not a 'wimpy'
>>Pinot, this richly balanced wine has structure, backbone and muscle."
>>
>>Don't creatures with lots of backbone and muscle tend to bite you?
>
>Not necessarily. Think more human and less animal. I like folks with
>strength and backbone, while conversely I have little respect for
>those who can't stand up for themselves or principles--get the
>metaphor?
>
>Ravenswood's motto for years has been "no wimpy wines", and although
>they don't always achieve it (in my opinion) it certainly is a
>commendable goal.
>>
>>I suppose once you have made a bunch of it you have to find a way to
>>convince people to buy it, regardless of its quality. Sad.
>>
>>Art Schubert
>>Traverse City, Michigan
>
>Ahhh, now we begin to fulfill the picture. Your comments following
>response to the initial question seem to indicate that you are seeking
>to produce and you've gotten the "hard and angular" relating to your
>product???

Actually no; not "produce" as such. The original post was refering to
a commercial Pinot from SW Michigan. Rather than "hard and angular" my
own have been more "subtle" with a capital S (I have de-stemmed them).

Also I would call what I am doing "producing". It is simply a hobby
and I have no intention of trying to market and sell my small
experiements. I am doing it more to see what can be done and to learn
how wine flavors and textures relate to the ways they are made.

>
>If so, your location is going to give you an uphill climb. You're on
>the "lake effect" side of the "big sea water" and that can mean early
>winters and late springs which translates into short growing seasons.
>The Lake certainly tempers your climate, but a good season is going to
>be more rare than in a lot of places.

You've got it. Not too bad for Riesling though, at least if Lake
Michigan does not freeze over (as it did in '02-'03).

>
>But, if you persist, you can probably make reasonable wine--consider
>the broad range of latitudes, altitudes, soils, etc. that have all
>produced good wine.

"Reasonable" is all I can expect at this moment.
>
>To convince people to buy it, however, takes some marketing. That
>might mean "loss leaders", advertising, competitions (and wins),
>tasting events, wine shop promotions, years of consistency, etc. It's
>a cliche that "overnight sensations" don't happen overnight. Good
>luck.

My meaning behind the marketing comment was that sometimes a wine that
really is not worth buying or drinking (e.g. made from un-ripe grapes)
gets sold by convincing people that those very (nasty, IMO) qualities
are good. I am too new at this to say that with confidence but it
seems possible.

>
>And, the bill for consulting will arrive at the end of the month.
>
Already have one. Thanks anyway.
>
>Ed Rasimus
>Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
>"When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org
> www.thundertales.blogspot.com


Art Schubert
Traverse City, Michigan

the same thing that causes 'closed and obtuse'.