Recommendation for a french red 2002 "de garde"
 

Hello,

which 2002 red french wine would you recommend to store until at least 2018?
I would buy this one for my daughter, born in 2002, for her to taste when
she reaches drinking age (16 here in Germany). I have a special favor for
Southern Rhone (because of many wonderful vacations we spent there), but
this vintage was supposedly quite bad in this area. Would a Bordeaux or
Burgundy be a better choice? I appreciate any opinion, thanks in advance!

Christian

"Christian Lehmann" > wrote in
om:

> Hello,
>
> which 2002 red french wine would you recommend to store until at least
> 2018? I would buy this one for my daughter, born in 2002, for her to
> taste when she reaches drinking age (16 here in Germany). I have a
> special favor for Southern Rhone (because of many wonderful vacations
> we spent there), but this vintage was supposedly quite bad in this
> area. Would a Bordeaux or Burgundy be a better choice? I appreciate
> any opinion, thanks in advance!
>
> Christian

Hi Christian,

I suppose that if it has to be red (why no Sauternes, instead?), Burgundy
is the answer, since it is supposed to be a great vintage. However, if it
was me, I would go for a Chateau Margaux 2002 which seemed to me to have
plenty of fruit to allow for such a garde. Or, if money is a concern, I
think that Leoville Barton 2002 could do the same work since I found it
very concentrated and hermetic last year at the Chateau and it has a good
track of longevity (in fact, it is said to be one of the longest lived GCC
still done in a very traditional way, that's to say, not making it softer
for earlier consumption).

Best,

Santiago

On 10 Feb 2005 22:39:47 GMT, Santiago > said:

] "Christian Lehmann" > wrote in
] om:
]
] > Hello,
] >
] > which 2002 red french wine would you recommend to store until at least
] > 2018? I would buy this one for my daughter, born in 2002, for her to
] > taste when she reaches drinking age (16 here in Germany). I have a
] > special favor for Southern Rhone (because of many wonderful vacations
] > we spent there), but this vintage was supposedly quite bad in this
] > area. Would a Bordeaux or Burgundy be a better choice? I appreciate
] > any opinion, thanks in advance!
] >
] > Christian
]
] Hi Christian,
]
] I suppose that if it has to be red (why no Sauternes, instead?), Burgundy
] is the answer, since it is supposed to be a great vintage. However, if it
] was me, I would go for a Chateau Margaux 2002 which seemed to me to have

Hi,

Definitely stay away from the southern Rhone, unless you're willing to really do
some picking and choosing. There may be a few bottles with that sort of
longevity in 2002, but generally the vintage was problematic.

I think Bourgogne, too. Should be a few that will go the distance without
destroying your wallet. How about a Clos des lambrays?

Nice to see your post, Santiago, seems you had gone missing for a while.
We need more Iberians here obviously. Planning a trip to the Anjou anytime
soon?

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
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Burgundy probably will offer the most choices. If you can find a copy of
"The Vine", January 2004, Clive Coates tasted a huge number of red
Burgundy wines from 2002. He also has a list of the ones he considers
best as well as individual tasting notes. The best wines seem to need
until about 2010-2011 to be fully ready, and many should hold many more
years. It probably is not a year for keeping for many decades.

Coates' list of top wines is too long for me to repeat here, and I have
no idea how much you would be willing to spend. I will mention just a
few. Nuits-Saint-Georges Pruliers, Vaucrains or Les Saint-Georges from
Henri Gouges; Vosne-Romanee Suchots from Robert Arnoux, Sylvain
Cathiard, Jean Grivot, or Jadot; Gevrey-Chambertin Clos Saint-Jacques
from Sylvie Esmonin, Fourrier, Jadot, or Armand Rousseau. If you are
willing to pay considerably more, some choices a Grands-Eschezeaux
from Rene Engel, Gros Frere & Soeur, Dominique Laurent or Nicolas Potel;
Clos deTart; Richebourg from Etienne Grivot, Anne Gros, Gros Frere &
Soeur, Alain Hudelot-Noellat, or Meo-Camuzet.

My mailbox is always full to avoid spam. To contact me, erase
from my email address. Then add . I do not
check this box every day, so post if you need a quick response.

Emery Davis > wrote in
:
>
> Nice to see your post, Santiago, seems you had gone missing for a
> while. We need more Iberians here obviously. Planning a trip to the
> Anjou anytime soon?


We usually travel to Anjou in October, but it does not depend completely on
us, since our travels to the zone are always work related.

I think there are other Iberians lurking this newsgroup, and I usually read
but do not post since most of the discussion is about wines that are
unavailable to me or wines on which I cannot add anything interesting.

Best,

Santiago

Salut/Hi Christian Lehmann,

le/on Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:42:07 +0100, tu disais/you said:-

>Hello,
>
>which 2002 red french wine would you recommend to store until at least 2018?
>I would buy this one for my daughter, born in 2002, for her to taste when
>she reaches drinking age (16 here in Germany). I have a special favor for
>Southern Rhone (because of many wonderful vacations we spent there), but
>this vintage was supposedly quite bad in this area. Would a Bordeaux or
>Burgundy be a better choice? I appreciate any opinion, thanks in advance!

2002 was a magnificent year in Burgundy - it wasn't bad in Bordeaux either,
for that matter.

It is often said that Burgundy is a more feminine wine, and that it often
appeals more to women than red Bordeaux does.

So you might like to look to a classic long lived red Burgundy from the Cote
d'Or. A grower like Henri Gouges in Nuits St Georges is a possibility,
although others will doubtless come up with other suggestions. THE classic
domaine is of course Domaine de Romanee Conti, and any of their wines will
be just coming into perfection then.

BUT, may I make a suggestion? Sweet whites keep well, and often appeal to
relatively uneducated palates and 2002 was a great year for them.

Something like a 1st Growth Sauternes/Barsac, or a top Monbazillac might
well give a lot of pleasure to your daughter.

By the way, I do hope you as a parent are allowed to let your children taste
wine to accompany a meal before their 16th birthday. In my opinion, one
reason why so many countries have a wine problem among their young is the
stupid legislation which creates a demand for a forbidden pleasure amongst a
sector of the community most in need of rebellion.

So treat her as the mediterranean peoples treat their children, introducing
wine to them as a regular and agreeable part of the meal - even diluting it
with water at first.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

On 11 Feb 2005 13:06:20 GMT, Santiago > said:

[]
] I think there are other Iberians lurking this newsgroup, and I usually read
] but do not post since most of the discussion is about wines that are
] unavailable to me or wines on which I cannot add anything interesting.
]

Well, delurk you Iberians. :) Actually I'm interested in reading notes
about wines I don't know that much about. Spain would be near the top of
that list. What's more internet retailers are now starting to offer some bottles
from Spain -- even here in France -- that look quite interesting. So keep the
notes coming, you can teach the rest of us ignorent types something.

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

"Christian Lehmann" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
om...
> Hello,
>
> which 2002 red french wine would you recommend to store until at least
2018?
> I would buy this one for my daughter, born in 2002, for her to taste when
> she reaches drinking age (16 here in Germany). I have a special favor for
> Southern Rhone (because of many wonderful vacations we spent there), but
> this vintage was supposedly quite bad in this area. Would a Bordeaux or
> Burgundy be a better choice? I appreciate any opinion, thanks in advance!
>
> Christian
>

Thanks to all posters so far, I have a pretty good idea now on what to look
for. Burgundy will very likely be the choice, I have very little experience
with wines from this area yet, but I now seek to try some in the next
months.

Best wishes
Christian

Emery Davis > wrote in
:
>
> Well, delurk you Iberians. :) Actually I'm interested in reading
> notes about wines I don't know that much about. Spain would be near
> the top of that list. What's more internet retailers are now starting
> to offer some bottles from Spain -- even here in France -- that look
> quite interesting. So keep the notes coming, you can teach the rest
> of us ignorent types something.


Emery,

I will be honest and say that I lack the ability of tracking all the wines
that I taste or drink (I am more a drinker than a taster). Also, I am not
very good in describing wines. I would love to have the ability of Bill
Spohn or Dale Williams whose notes I read with delight.

However, if anyone wants some information about any Spanish wine, and I can
be of any help, I am willing to offer some information, as I have done in
the past.

From your previous message, should I guess that you are located in Anjou?
Last year we had a terrific time visiting Pascal Laffourcade at Domaine de
la Echarderie, Mark Angeli at Domaine de la Sansonniere and Patrick
Baudoin. Lovely wines, charming people, a lot of love for their work.

Which other vignerons do you recommend for a possible next visit?

Best,

Santiago

On 12 Feb 2005 23:55:04 GMT, Santiago > said:

] Emery Davis > wrote in
] : =20
] >=20
] > Well, delurk you Iberians. :) Actually I'm interested in reading
] > notes about wines I don't know that much about. Spain would be near
] > the top of that list. What's more internet retailers are now starting
] > to offer some bottles from Spain -- even here in France -- that look
] > quite interesting. So keep the notes coming, you can teach the rest
] > of us ignorent types something.=20
]=20
]=20
] Emery,
]=20
] I will be honest and say that I lack the ability of tracking all the wine=
s=20
] that I taste or drink (I am more a drinker than a taster). Also, I am not=
=20
] very good in describing wines. I would love to have the ability of Bill=20
] Spohn or Dale Williams whose notes I read with delight.
]=20

I think you're with most of us on that. I don't really track everything ei=
ther,
and only post a note when it seems something is noteworthy.

Bill and Dale obviously are a) obsessed and b) have too much time
on their hands to write it all up. :) I enjoy the copious notes too.

] However, if anyone wants some information about any Spanish wine, and I c=
an=20
] be of any help, I am willing to offer some information, as I have done in=
=20
] the past.=20
]=20

I'll remember that your lurking about then.

] From your previous message, should I guess that you are located in Anjou?=
=20

No, but thanks to our marvy new autoroutes I'm only about an hour
away. I'm up north in calvados country. Although there are some
folks growing gamay not far from here, the closest "real" wines are
from jasnieres.

] Last year we had a terrific time visiting Pascal Laffourcade at Domaine d=
e=20
] la Echarderie, Mark Angeli at Domaine de la Sansonniere and Patrick=20
] Baudoin. Lovely wines, charming people, a lot of love for their work.
]=20
] Which other vignerons do you recommend for a possible next visit?
]=20

I know Baudoin is one of Mike T's favorites, and is making some lovely
wines. Probably a top reference in the entire area. I like Jean-Pierre Ch=
en=E9
at Dom Ambinos for the SGN CdL, also some very quaffable and affordable
light Anjou red, if you like the style. Dom Roullet makes a fine CdL and a=
lso
some very nice cremant. Ogereau has en excellent CdL as well as a very fine
dryer chenin. Of course there is Nicolas Joly...

On the subject of biodynamics in another thread, of course Joly is a
sort of ambassador for the movement. Is Baudoin biodynamic, does
anyone know?

Ian called it "neo-steinerite" or words to that effect, but wouldn't
"classico-steinerite" be more appropriate? :\

-E
--=20
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

Salut/Hi Emery Davis,

le/on Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:23:54 +0100, tu disais/you said:-


>] From your previous message, should I guess that you are located in Anjou?
>
>No, but thanks to our marvy new autoroutes I'm only about an hour
>away.

Replying to your A28 comment in your message to me. I have that running
between Amiens and Rouen, but I didn't know it was going elsewhere.
Interesting.

I have to say that my usual route up from us to Le Havre (our usual port for
the UK) is up A20 which has the very great virtue of being toll-free down to
Brive from Vierzon and not too busy, and thence up A71, A10 leaving just
before Paris, to go via Rambouillet, Versailles and out on the A14. Will A28
be a viable alternative?

>I know Baudoin is one of Mike T's favorites, and is making some lovely
>wines.

I like his wines very much too, though I've also seen criticism of them as
being unsubtle.

> Of course there is Nicolas Joly...

Grin. Indeed.

>On the subject of biodynamics in another thread, of course Joly is a
>sort of ambassador for the movement. Is Baudoin biodynamic, does
>anyone know?

I don't think so. On the other hand. he is a member of Sapros, which quite
rightly eschews the use of any chaptalisation, reverse osmosis and
artificial cryoextraction in making sweet wines.

>Ian called it "neo-steinerite" or words to that effect, but wouldn't
>"classico-steinerite" be more appropriate? :\

Grin. Perhaps.

I should have added that I've had some excellent wines from adherents of
Biodymanic principles, and that not all of them have adopted all the magic
mumbo-jumbo. On the other hand, unlike Michael Tomassi I've had some
disappointing wine from a Biodynamic producer. So I accept that most people
prepared to go to the trouble of adopting the principles are likely to make
good wines, though I am not certain that it's due to the Biodynamics more
than the generally high standards of care that they use.

--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:48:59 +0100, Ian Hoare > said:

] Salut/Hi Emery Davis,
]
] le/on Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:23:54 +0100, tu disais/you said:-
]
]
] >] From your previous message, should I guess that you are located in Anjou?
] >
] >No, but thanks to our marvy new autoroutes I'm only about an hour
] >away.
]
] Replying to your A28 comment in your message to me. I have that running
] between Amiens and Rouen, but I didn't know it was going elsewhere.
] Interesting.
]
] I have to say that my usual route up from us to Le Havre (our usual port for
] the UK) is up A20 which has the very great virtue of being toll-free down to
] Brive from Vierzon and not too busy, and thence up A71, A10 leaving just
] before Paris, to go via Rambouillet, Versailles and out on the A14. Will A28
] be a viable alternative?
]

I think it will indeed. It will connect Tours - Le Mans - Alencon - Rouen.
There is also the A88 which will connect Alencon Caen, but that won't be
finished until 2008 IIRC. The A28 will be finished this year. It currently
takes me over 2 hours to get to Rouen, that will soon be 45 minutes! :)

[]
] I should have added that I've had some excellent wines from adherents of
] Biodymanic principles, and that not all of them have adopted all the magic
] mumbo-jumbo. On the other hand, unlike Michael Tomassi I've had some
] disappointing wine from a Biodynamic producer. So I accept that most people
] prepared to go to the trouble of adopting the principles are likely to make
] good wines, though I am not certain that it's due to the Biodynamics more
] than the generally high standards of care that they use.
]

I think that's where most of us agree. You have to be such a cussed perfectionist
to even consider biodynamics, that's likely to show up in all areas of your
winemaking.

As you may recall I was educated in the Waldorf (Steinerite) system -- e.g.
Steiner School NY -- and although these are often excellent schools one
must take the anthroposophical hooey with a grain of salt (or aspirin...)

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies