Our Bordeaux group met at Riverpark last night for a look at 1990 claret. A bubbly and a white to start:

2009 Ledru "Cuvee De Goulte" Champagne
Citrus and mineral, a little brioche, full, powerful. B+

2005 Matrot "Quintessance" Puligny-Montrachet
Quite ripe, tropical, complex, more Meursault than Puligny, could use a bit more acid. B

On to the reds, not blind.

Flight #1 - Marguax meets Graves

1990 Ch. Palmer
Quite funky, this had good fruit and balance underneath. Brett was within my tolerance, but surprising. B/B+

1990 Ch. Pape-Clement
I thought this was really very good, with cassis and black cherry fruit, some spice, midbodied and elegant. B+/A-

My starter was some excellent sweetbreads with an egg and asparagus

Flight #2 St Emilion
1990 Ch. Figeac
Some thought meaty/bloody, I felt more herby. Just a touch of a roasted note, but not extreme, and with a long finish. B+

1990 Ch. Canon
Best bottle I've had of this. Dark fruits, coffee, good length. B+/A-

Flight #3 Pomerol
1990 Ch. la Conseillante
Black fruits, floral, cigarbox. Exotic and complex while remaining clearly Pomerol. Gets my WOTN vote by a hair over the Clinet. A-

1990 Ch. Clinet
Lovely, long, maybe the youngest bottle at table. Ripe but not overripe, velvety, some minty herb. A-

My main course was bacon-wrapped rabbit loin with cornbread stuffing and peas, really very good (others really liked their lamb)

Flight #4 N. Medoc (St J and St Est.)

1990 Ch Gruaud-Larose
Just a hint of brett, red and black fruits, not as long as some wines. Not bad just a little foursquare compared to tablemates. B

1990 Ch Cos d'Estournel
Lean and a little tough. Not as much fruit as other 1990s. B-

Cheese course with Humboldt Fog, Ossau-Iraty, and a Vermont cheese whose name I missed

Flight #5 Pauillac

1990 Ch Pichon Baron
Young, black currant and smoke, a little cedar. Quite long. B+/A-

1990 Ch. Grand Puy Lacoste
Ripe cassis fruit, earth, a little mocha. B+

At night's end we did our usual 3/2/1 voting:

Fun night with a good assortment of wines.
Conseillante 26 pts
Clinet 10 pts
Pichon Baron 8 pts
Figeac 4 pts
Palmer 3 pts
Pape Clement 2 pts
Canon 1 pt

Nice group of wines, good food, great group


Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent wine, B a good wine, C drinkable. Anything below C means I wouldn't drink at a party where it was only choice.Furthermore, I offer no promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency.

On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-4, DaleW wrote:
> Our Bordeaux group met at Riverpark last night for a look at 1990 claret. A bubbly and a white to start:
>
> 2009 Ledru "Cuvee De Goulte" Champagne
> Citrus and mineral, a little brioche, full, powerful. B+
>
> 2005 Matrot "Quintessance" Puligny-Montrachet
> Quite ripe, tropical, complex, more Meursault than Puligny, could use a bit more acid. B
>
> On to the reds, not blind.


>
> Flight #1 - Marguax meets Graves
>
> 1990 Ch. Palmer
> Quite funky, this had good fruit and balance underneath. Brett was within my tolerance, but surprising. B/B+
>
> 1990 Ch. Pape-Clement
> I thought this was really very good, with cassis and black cherry fruit, some spice, midbodied and elegant. B+/A-
>
> My starter was some excellent sweetbreads with an egg and asparagus
>
> Flight #2 St Emilion
> 1990 Ch. Figeac
> Some thought meaty/bloody, I felt more herby. Just a touch of a roasted note, but not extreme, and with a long finish. B+
>
> 1990 Ch. Canon
> Best bottle I've had of this. Dark fruits, coffee, good length. B+/A-
>
> Flight #3 Pomerol
> 1990 Ch. la Conseillante
> Black fruits, floral, cigarbox. Exotic and complex while remaining clearly Pomerol. Gets my WOTN vote by a hair over the Clinet. A-
>
> 1990 Ch. Clinet
> Lovely, long, maybe the youngest bottle at table. Ripe but not overripe, velvety, some minty herb. A-
>
> My main course was bacon-wrapped rabbit loin with cornbread stuffing and peas, really very good (others really liked their lamb)
>
> Flight #4 N. Medoc (St J and St Est.)
>
> 1990 Ch Gruaud-Larose
> Just a hint of brett, red and black fruits, not as long as some wines. Not bad just a little foursquare compared to tablemates. B
>
> 1990 Ch Cos d'Estournel
> Lean and a little tough. Not as much fruit as other 1990s. B-
>
> Cheese course with Humboldt Fog, Ossau-Iraty, and a Vermont cheese whose name I missed
>
> Flight #5 Pauillac
>
> 1990 Ch Pichon Baron
> Young, black currant and smoke, a little cedar. Quite long. B+/A-
>
> 1990 Ch. Grand Puy Lacoste
> Ripe cassis fruit, earth, a little mocha. B+
>
> At night's end we did our usual 3/2/1 voting:
>
> Fun night with a good assortment of wines.
> Conseillante 26 pts
> Clinet 10 pts
> Pichon Baron 8 pts
> Figeac 4 pts
> Palmer 3 pts
> Pape Clement 2 pts
> Canon 1 pt
>
> Nice group of wines, good food, great group
>
>
> Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent wine, B a good wine, C drinkable. Anything below C means I wouldn't drink at a party where it was only choice.Furthermore, I offer no promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency.

Dale-Thanks for the notes. Just curious, in my various wine groups the storage and purchase condition of some wines are unknown. For the most part my wines were bought on release from the distributor and stored at 55F and generally speaking my bottles are fresher, younger and less advanced than many others at our tastings. In blind tastings the joke is that my bottles are the easiest to pick out because they are the youngest. So, when you post notes do you consider the bottle condition or do you just figure that these bottles represent a pretty good picture of where the wine actually is by and large? I know it's a complex question but often when I read your notes I try to project them onto the bottles I have and decide if I should open, hold or sell. Thanks

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 6:59:36 AM UTC-6, Bi!! wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 3, 2015 at 1:26:07 PM UTC-4, DaleW wrote:
> > Our Bordeaux group met at Riverpark last night for a look at 1990 claret. A bubbly and a white to start:
> >
> > 2009 Ledru "Cuvee De Goulte" Champagne
> > Citrus and mineral, a little brioche, full, powerful. B+
> >
> > 2005 Matrot "Quintessance" Puligny-Montrachet
> > Quite ripe, tropical, complex, more Meursault than Puligny, could use a bit more acid. B
> >
> > On to the reds, not blind.
>
>
> >
> > Flight #1 - Marguax meets Graves
> >
> > 1990 Ch. Palmer
> > Quite funky, this had good fruit and balance underneath. Brett was within my tolerance, but surprising. B/B+
> >
> > 1990 Ch. Pape-Clement
> > I thought this was really very good, with cassis and black cherry fruit, some spice, midbodied and elegant. B+/A-
> >
> > My starter was some excellent sweetbreads with an egg and asparagus
> >
> > Flight #2 St Emilion
> > 1990 Ch. Figeac
> > Some thought meaty/bloody, I felt more herby. Just a touch of a roasted note, but not extreme, and with a long finish. B+
> >
> > 1990 Ch. Canon
> > Best bottle I've had of this. Dark fruits, coffee, good length. B+/A-
> >
> > Flight #3 Pomerol
> > 1990 Ch. la Conseillante
> > Black fruits, floral, cigarbox. Exotic and complex while remaining clearly Pomerol. Gets my WOTN vote by a hair over the Clinet. A-
> >
> > 1990 Ch. Clinet
> > Lovely, long, maybe the youngest bottle at table. Ripe but not overripe, velvety, some minty herb. A-
> >
> > My main course was bacon-wrapped rabbit loin with cornbread stuffing and peas, really very good (others really liked their lamb)
> >
> > Flight #4 N. Medoc (St J and St Est.)
> >
> > 1990 Ch Gruaud-Larose
> > Just a hint of brett, red and black fruits, not as long as some wines. Not bad just a little foursquare compared to tablemates. B
> >
> > 1990 Ch Cos d'Estournel
> > Lean and a little tough. Not as much fruit as other 1990s. B-
> >
> > Cheese course with Humboldt Fog, Ossau-Iraty, and a Vermont cheese whose name I missed
> >
> > Flight #5 Pauillac
> >
> > 1990 Ch Pichon Baron
> > Young, black currant and smoke, a little cedar. Quite long. B+/A-
> >
> > 1990 Ch. Grand Puy Lacoste
> > Ripe cassis fruit, earth, a little mocha. B+
> >
> > At night's end we did our usual 3/2/1 voting:
> >
> > Fun night with a good assortment of wines.
> > Conseillante 26 pts
> > Clinet 10 pts
> > Pichon Baron 8 pts
> > Figeac 4 pts
> > Palmer 3 pts
> > Pape Clement 2 pts
> > Canon 1 pt
> >
> > Nice group of wines, good food, great group
> >
> >
> > Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent wine, B a good wine, C drinkable. Anything below C means I wouldn't drink at a party where it was only choice.Furthermore, I offer no promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency.
>
> Dale-Thanks for the notes. Just curious, in my various wine groups the storage and purchase condition of some wines are unknown. For the most part my wines were bought on release from the distributor and stored at 55F and generally speaking my bottles are fresher, younger and less advanced than many others at our tastings. In blind tastings the joke is that my bottles are the easiest to pick out because they are the youngest. So, when you post notes do you consider the bottle condition or do you just figure that these bottles represent a pretty good picture of where the wine actually is by and large? I know it's a complex question but often when I read your notes I try to project them onto the bottles I have and decide if I should open, hold or sell. Thanks

Just to chime in here, we have several members of our wine group who bring tired, over-the-hill bottles more than once. Have never figured out a polite way to deal with that.

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 8:59:36 AM UTC-4, Bi!! wrote:

>
> Dale-Thanks for the notes. Just curious, in my various wine groups the storage and purchase condition of some wines are unknown. For the most part my wines were bought on release from the distributor and stored at 55F and generally speaking my bottles are fresher, younger and less advanced than many others at our tastings. In blind tastings the joke is that my bottles are the easiest to pick out because they are the youngest. So, when you post notes do you consider the bottle condition or do you just figure that these bottles represent a pretty good picture of where the wine actually is by and large? I know it's a complex question but often when I read your notes I try to project them onto the bottles I have and decide if I should open, hold or sell. Thanks

Bill,
I try to note if overtly tired, and we usually discuss provenance/storage in those cases. My bottle (the Conseillante) was sourced in 2005 (after it was my WOTN in a tasting with this group) privately from someone who bought EP. I think that the majority of these were sourced retail or at reputable auction, there are only a few members who have 1990s from release (I started in wine about time 1990s came out, but have drunk all my original purchase '89 and '90 Bdx, the oldest I have that I'm sole owner of are '95 and '96s).

But one of the reasons this group started was to avoid the situation we were running into at "offlines" (tastings organized through wine boards) where there were people showing up with bottles sourced from corner liquor stores, off Winebid, etc. It's irritating to bring a bottle you had stored or paid a premium for, and some winehunter shows up with a bottle that's clearly cooked.

Overall I think we have pretty good showings. I have wines I bought at Winebid, but I would not usually bring/serve to this group (or my other serious group, SOBER) without a disclaimer and a backup bottle. Even though I was sure of provenance AND double-decanted the La Conseillante, I carried a '90 Lagrange as a backup. You can never tell till you open, but no one in this group brings bottles with seepage or questionable fills.

That said, in an ideal world I should probably try to list provenance of bottles But that is complicated, too. Paul keeps his cellar at 53, others at 55, I have wines in commercial storage (55) and two separate cellars. One is totally passive, with slow seasonal swings from 50 to 70. The main cellar is semi-passive, naturally swings slowly from maybe 47 to 66-68, but I put in a room AC to bring it down to 65 if I see a heatwave coming. And some bottles have moved (no matter where they were before my acquisition) from one of my passive cellars to commercial storage and vice versa.

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 12:35:05 PM UTC-4, lleichtman wrote:

>
> Just to chime in here, we have several members of our wine group who bring tired, over-the-hill bottles more than once. Have never figured out a polite way to deal with that.

As I noted to Bill, this particular group was founded partly to avoid the woes of publicly organized tastings where some people showed up regularly with iffy bottles.
If someone does that regularly, the question is do they know they're doing it? If not, a gentle lesson in careful sourcing (provenance, reputation of retailers or auction houses, checking fills and capsule conditions) and careful storage might be all that's needed. If intentional (I'll bring this seeping bottle with midshoulder fill and be able to drink others' good stuff) I'd just drop from invite list.

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 4:07:15 PM UTC-4, DaleW wrote:
> On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 8:59:36 AM UTC-4, Bi!! wrote:
>
> >
> > Dale-Thanks for the notes. Just curious, in my various wine groups the storage and purchase condition of some wines are unknown. For the most part my wines were bought on release from the distributor and stored at 55F and generally speaking my bottles are fresher, younger and less advanced than many others at our tastings. In blind tastings the joke is that my bottles are the easiest to pick out because they are the youngest. So, when you post notes do you consider the bottle condition or do you just figure that these bottles represent a pretty good picture of where the wine actually is by and large? I know it's a complex question but often when I read your notes I try to project them onto the bottles I have and decide if I should open, hold or sell. Thanks
>
> Bill,
> I try to note if overtly tired, and we usually discuss provenance/storage in those cases. My bottle (the Conseillante) was sourced in 2005 (after it was my WOTN in a tasting with this group) privately from someone who bought EP. I think that the majority of these were sourced retail or at reputable auction, there are only a few members who have 1990s from release (I started in wine about time 1990s came out, but have drunk all my original purchase '89 and '90 Bdx, the oldest I have that I'm sole owner of are '95 and '96s).
>
> But one of the reasons this group started was to avoid the situation we were running into at "offlines" (tastings organized through wine boards) where there were people showing up with bottles sourced from corner liquor stores, off Winebid, etc. It's irritating to bring a bottle you had stored or paid a premium for, and some winehunter shows up with a bottle that's clearly cooked.
>
> Overall I think we have pretty good showings. I have wines I bought at Winebid, but I would not usually bring/serve to this group (or my other serious group, SOBER) without a disclaimer and a backup bottle. Even though I was sure of provenance AND double-decanted the La Conseillante, I carried a '90 Lagrange as a backup. You can never tell till you open, but no one in this group brings bottles with seepage or questionable fills.
>
> That said, in an ideal world I should probably try to list provenance of bottles But that is complicated, too. Paul keeps his cellar at 53, others at 55, I have wines in commercial storage (55) and two separate cellars. One is totally passive, with slow seasonal swings from 50 to 70. The main cellar is semi-passive, naturally swings slowly from maybe 47 to 66-68, but I put in a room AC to bring it down to 65 if I see a heatwave coming. And some bottles have moved (no matter where they were before my acquisition) from one of my passive cellars to commercial storage and vice versa.

Thanks Dale. I was just trying to get an idea of the overall provenence of the groups wines as I too have endured tastings where bottles were stored under the sink, etc. I was just trying to get a feel for the condition of the wines as I have many of the wines that you listed and wanted to judge drink or hold based on good normal bottles from reputable sources.

On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 7:04:19 AM UTC-6, Bi!! wrote:
> On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 4:07:15 PM UTC-4, DaleW wrote:
> > On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 8:59:36 AM UTC-4, Bi!! wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Dale-Thanks for the notes. Just curious, in my various wine groups the storage and purchase condition of some wines are unknown. For the most part my wines were bought on release from the distributor and stored at 55F and generally speaking my bottles are fresher, younger and less advanced than many others at our tastings. In blind tastings the joke is that my bottles are the easiest to pick out because they are the youngest. So, when you post notes do you consider the bottle condition or do you just figure that these bottles represent a pretty good picture of where the wine actually is by and large? I know it's a complex question but often when I read your notes I try to project them onto the bottles I have and decide if I should open, hold or sell. Thanks
> >
> > Bill,
> > I try to note if overtly tired, and we usually discuss provenance/storage in those cases. My bottle (the Conseillante) was sourced in 2005 (after it was my WOTN in a tasting with this group) privately from someone who bought EP. I think that the majority of these were sourced retail or at reputable auction, there are only a few members who have 1990s from release (I started in wine about time 1990s came out, but have drunk all my original purchase '89 and '90 Bdx, the oldest I have that I'm sole owner of are '95 and '96s).
> >
> > But one of the reasons this group started was to avoid the situation we were running into at "offlines" (tastings organized through wine boards) where there were people showing up with bottles sourced from corner liquor stores, off Winebid, etc. It's irritating to bring a bottle you had stored or paid a premium for, and some winehunter shows up with a bottle that's clearly cooked.
> >
> > Overall I think we have pretty good showings. I have wines I bought at Winebid, but I would not usually bring/serve to this group (or my other serious group, SOBER) without a disclaimer and a backup bottle. Even though I was sure of provenance AND double-decanted the La Conseillante, I carried a '90 Lagrange as a backup. You can never tell till you open, but no one in this group brings bottles with seepage or questionable fills.
> >
> > That said, in an ideal world I should probably try to list provenance of bottles But that is complicated, too. Paul keeps his cellar at 53, others at 55, I have wines in commercial storage (55) and two separate cellars. One is totally passive, with slow seasonal swings from 50 to 70. The main cellar is semi-passive, naturally swings slowly from maybe 47 to 66-68, but I put in a room AC to bring it down to 65 if I see a heatwave coming. And some bottles have moved (no matter where they were before my acquisition) from one of my passive cellars to commercial storage and vice versa.
>
> Thanks Dale. I was just trying to get an idea of the overall provenence of the groups wines as I too have endured tastings where bottles were stored under the sink, etc. I was just trying to get a feel for the condition of the wines as I have many of the wines that you listed and wanted to judge drink or hold based on good normal bottles from reputable sources.

My question involves what I call cellar cleaning. A forgotten box in someones cellar contains a wine or two that match our requirements for the tasting but often are tired and insipid wines. And they are often proudly brought as a prize that escaped notice so I don't think there is any intent to defraud, just plain poor judgement.

On 6/5/15 11:43 AM, lleichtman wrote:

> My question involves what I call cellar cleaning. A forgotten box in
> someones cellar contains a wine or two that match our requirements
> for the tasting but often are tired and insipid wines. And they are
> often proudly brought as a prize that escaped notice so I don't think
> there is any intent to defraud, just plain poor judgement.
>

Larry, it doesn't require outright fraud, just a cheap streak or poor
judgement. There have been a few notorious wine board characters who
were "renowned" for bringing tired/corked/cheap bottles to offlines.
That's one powerful reason to form your own tasting group with people
you know and trust. Dale's SOBER group consists mostly of wine industry
types who are totally above reproach. Those of us who don't live in
major metropolitan areas can't quite assembly such an august grouping of
fellow winos ;-)

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 10:10:44 AM UTC-6, Mark Lipton wrote:
> On 6/5/15 11:43 AM, lleichtman wrote:
>
> > My question involves what I call cellar cleaning. A forgotten box in
> > someones cellar contains a wine or two that match our requirements
> > for the tasting but often are tired and insipid wines. And they are
> > often proudly brought as a prize that escaped notice so I don't think
> > there is any intent to defraud, just plain poor judgement.
> >
>
> Larry, it doesn't require outright fraud, just a cheap streak or poor
> judgement. There have been a few notorious wine board characters who
> were "renowned" for bringing tired/corked/cheap bottles to offlines.
> That's one powerful reason to form your own tasting group with people
> you know and trust. Dale's SOBER group consists mostly of wine industry
> types who are totally above reproach. Those of us who don't live in
> major metropolitan areas can't quite assembly such an august grouping of
> fellow winos ;-)
>
> Mark Lipton
>
> --
> alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

One of our wine groups is dying on the vine and we need a new one but this is second one we formed and it always seems to be the same people anyhow no matter what group we form. I'm in Santa Fe and we pull from a max population of 150K so it is difficult to find people and getting younger people in is always an issue so I will probably end up just tasting with a few friends with cellars.

On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 10:45:34 PM UTC+2, lleichtman wrote:
> One of our wine groups is dying on the vine and we need a new one but this is second one we formed and it always seems to be the same people anyhow no matter what group we form. I'm in Santa Fe and we pull from a max population of 150K so it is difficult to find people and getting younger people in is always an issue so I will probably end up just tasting with a few friends with cellars.

Its always a struggle to get enough people for my tastings. I doodle, and find the best date. this monday we were looking to be 10 people, and yesterday we were looking to be 6 people. Luckilly, some of the 6 managed to bring in 2 more. Nowadays, most people, even those from wine making countries just prefer a casual industrial beer. However, when they come to my tastings, they are often surprised at how wines can taste, and think that all the wines I choose are better than the wines they get at store-hosted tastings,

On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 4:28:00 PM UTC-6, Michael Nielsen wrote:
> On Friday, June 5, 2015 at 10:45:34 PM UTC+2, lleichtman wrote:
> > One of our wine groups is dying on the vine and we need a new one but this is second one we formed and it always seems to be the same people anyhow no matter what group we form. I'm in Santa Fe and we pull from a max population of 150K so it is difficult to find people and getting younger people in is always an issue so I will probably end up just tasting with a few friends with cellars.
>
> Its always a struggle to get enough people for my tastings. I doodle, and find the best date. this monday we were looking to be 10 people, and yesterday we were looking to be 6 people. Luckilly, some of the 6 managed to bring in 2 more. Nowadays, most people, even those from wine making countries just prefer a casual industrial beer. However, when they come to my tastings, they are often surprised at how wines can taste, and think that all the wines I choose are better than the wines they get at store-hosted tastings,

Ours is a max of 18 people with a minimum of 15 so we have been doing badly over the last few months. Don't know why.