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Default TN: Rioja 1938-1987 at Txikito in Chelsea

I had a miserable day and was pretty exhausted by time I got to Txikito Tuesday night , but good company and good Rioja pulled me out of a funk. Perfect connections on subway got me there on time, and Ben passed around the 2004 Ruinart "Dom Ruinart" Champagne. I think this could have used a little more chill but it was tasty- lemon, dough, floral. B+/B

First couple courses were croquettes and canapes of boquerones with pepper. Diane passed a Equipo Navasos #31 ( I think someone said Amontillado but not sure) - nutty, burnt toffee, quite saline. Sherry folks loved, I'm just not a sherry guy so not going to rate.

A delicious octopus carpaccio made an appearance

1938 Marques de Riscal Reserva
I think this is the oldest Rioja I've had, but not old at all. Sweet delicate fruit with a pleasant burnt sugar edge, elegant but with some stuffing. A-

An arugula salad w/fried silverfish, plus pork ribs

1954 Marques de Murrieta "Ygay" Rioja Reserva
Bright acids, red fruits, meat, quite complete. A-/B+

1955 Bilbainas "Vina Pomal" Rioja Reserva Especial
So at first I didn't care for this at all. Less acid on the palate than the 54 Murrieta, but a lifted/VA nose with a strange shoe polish note. But that seemed to settle down it glass and it picked up fruit and leather notes. I wrote down B. But a while later I absentmindedly finished this to make room for next flight, and thought (without any real reflection) this had continued to improve.

I'd say the most controversial course (I liked more than some) was squid cut into fine ribbons with a pinenut sauce

My favorite flight followed (once I figured out what the wines were)
1975 CVNE " Vina Real" Rioja Gran Reserva
Complex, complete, red fruit with meat and herb notes. I really liked this, my surprise WOTN. A-

1973 CVNE" Imperial" Gran Reserva
..Red and black cherry, earth, spice (a hint of dill but not distracting). A-/B+

1975 CVNE "Imperial" Rioja Gran Reserva
Lively, good fruit, dirt, just a little drying on finish. B+

Nice suckling pig with fries
1964 Bodegas Bilbainas Rioja Reserva Especial
A bit poopy. The only wine I explicitly noted brett (though "meat" in others might indicate) but well within my tolerance level. Improves with air (true of almost every wine). B+

1981 R. Lopez de Heredia "Vina Bosconia" Gran Rioja Reserva
I've really enjoyed this in past, this seemed a bit closed and flat compared to other wines this night, though again it opened towards end. You can sense some power underneath. B

1987 CVNE " Vina Real" Rioja Gran Reserva
Young, a bit tight, opens after a while, more fruity than the LdH. B

1973 Marques de Riscal Rioja Reserva
A bit of stink on the nose, red fruits, not as deep as some tonight, but once again improvement in glass. By end B/B+

Tthere was also a cheese course (Roncal or something similar). Fun night, great people. The big takeaway was how much even the oldest wines improved with air.

Grade disclaimer: I'm a very easy grader, basically A is an excellent wine, B a good wine, C drinkable. Anything below C means I wouldn't drink at a party where it was only choice.Furthermore, I offer no promises of objectivity, accuracy, and certainly not of consistency.
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Default TN: Rioja 1938-1987 at Txikito in Chelsea

On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 at 10:16:14 PM UTC+2, DaleW wrote:
> 1938 Marques de Riscal Reserva
> I think this is the oldest Rioja I've had, but not old at all. Sweet delicate fruit with a pleasant burnt sugar edge, elegant but with some stuffing.. A-



Not bad for a 10$ wine to age so well

I have a M de Riscal reserva label in my wine label book. In the beginning when I travelled to Italy to "Steal" my wife and found it hard to get wines other than italian wines there I managed to find this rioja. They charged 35euro there. My wife wasnt used to wines that were not local (terrano/refosco) and she loved it, so it was worth it.

When I then went back to california I found it in traders joe for 10$!.

When I went back to Denmark I found it at the supermarket for 50DKK (6.5euro).

I wouldnt have expected it to be a long time ager, since it is so smooth and easy drinking when young.
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On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 5:51:04 PM UTC-4, Michael Nielsen wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 at 10:16:14 PM UTC+2, DaleW wrote:
> > 1938 Marques de Riscal Reserva
> > I think this is the oldest Rioja I've had, but not old at all. Sweet delicate fruit with a pleasant burnt sugar edge, elegant but with some stuffing. A-

>
>
> Not bad for a 10$ wine to age so well
>
> I have a M de Riscal reserva label in my wine label book. In the beginning when I travelled to Italy to "Steal" my wife and found it hard to get wines other than italian wines there I managed to find this rioja. They charged 35euro there. My wife wasnt used to wines that were not local (terrano/refosco) and she loved it, so it was worth it.
>
> When I then went back to california I found it in traders joe for 10$!.
>
> When I went back to Denmark I found it at the supermarket for 50DKK (6.5euro).
>
> I wouldnt have expected it to be a long time ager, since it is so smooth and easy drinking when young.


I wouldn't extrapolate aging of modern era Riscals from aging of earlier vintages, a lot has changed.
The most Rioja-centric person at tasting (with lots of old Rioja experience) called 1970 the last great vintage for Riscal.
Maybe Santiago is reading and has an opinion.
For my tastes (pretty opposite of yours I think!) the best Rioja candidates for aging are the more traditional properties such as CVNE, La Rioja Alta, and LdH. But I haven't tasted that many recent vintage Riojas.
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On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 5:35:42 PM UTC+2, DaleW wrote:
> I wouldn't extrapolate aging of modern era Riscals from aging of earlier vintages, a lot has changed.
> The most Rioja-centric person at tasting (with lots of old Rioja experience) called 1970 the last great vintage for Riscal.
> Maybe Santiago is reading and has an opinion.


That could be. I was thinking that might be the case. Funny, Riscal is on sale this week in the supermarket, with promises of awards from wine spectator.

> For my tastes (pretty opposite of yours I think!) the best Rioja candidates for aging are the more traditional properties such as CVNE, La Rioja Alta, and LdH. But I haven't tasted that many recent vintage Riojas.


Im not so sure our tastes are opposite. I have the impression you prefer Bordeaux over burgundy, like me. you prefer LdH over the bulk of modernist rioja, as do I.

Now, I prefer napa wines over Bordeaux unlike you (my impression of your taste). But that could maybe be explained by the difference that you have access to exotic well-aged samples, and I am limited to mid-class new release - usually max 15y old, but mostly just 3-7 year old wines. And there , I think, you get more value from Napa and around than Bordeuax. I do think that bordeuax has equal wines to Napa in the range I drink, but they just cost more, despite the extra intercontinental taxation.
For whites, we are opposites for fresh ones, as I cannot appreciate them, unless its a buttery creamy one, but probably could enjoy the same well aged ones (e.g. LdH).



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On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 1:15:46 PM UTC-4, Michael Nielsen wrote:
> On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 5:35:42 PM UTC+2, DaleW wrote:
> > I wouldn't extrapolate aging of modern era Riscals from aging of earlier vintages, a lot has changed.
> > The most Rioja-centric person at tasting (with lots of old Rioja experience) called 1970 the last great vintage for Riscal.
> > Maybe Santiago is reading and has an opinion.

>
> That could be. I was thinking that might be the case. Funny, Riscal is on sale this week in the supermarket, with promises of awards from wine spectator.
>
> > For my tastes (pretty opposite of yours I think!) the best Rioja candidates for aging are the more traditional properties such as CVNE, La Rioja Alta, and LdH. But I haven't tasted that many recent vintage Riojas.

>
> Im not so sure our tastes are opposite. I have the impression you prefer Bordeaux over burgundy, like me. you prefer LdH over the bulk of modernist rioja, as do I.
>
> Now, I prefer napa wines over Bordeaux unlike you (my impression of your taste). But that could maybe be explained by the difference that you have access to exotic well-aged samples, and I am limited to mid-class new release - usually max 15y old, but mostly just 3-7 year old wines. And there , I think, you get more value from Napa and around than Bordeuax. I do think that bordeuax has equal wines to Napa in the range I drink, but they just cost more, despite the extra intercontinental taxation.
> For whites, we are opposites for fresh ones, as I cannot appreciate them, unless its a buttery creamy one, but probably could enjoy the same well aged ones (e.g. LdH).


I think Napa and Bordeaux have little in common from a stylistic standpoint in terms of red wine. I have access to a fair amount of well aged Bordeaux and Napa as well as more current releases. I find the current release wines to be vastly different from each other in terms of Napa v Bordeaux. Ripeness levels and use of oak seem to be the biggest diffferences so if you prefer lush, concentrated, higher alcohol wines with a fair amount of oak then Napa would fit the bill at the same price point as Bordeaux.


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DaleW > wrote in
:

> I wouldn't extrapolate aging of modern era Riscals from aging of
> earlier vintages, a lot has changed. The most Rioja-centric person at
> tasting (with lots of old Rioja experience) called 1970 the last great
> vintage for Riscal. Maybe Santiago is reading and has an opinion.


I do not have much experience with old Marqués de Riscal, but I have tasted
the last 15 vintages and the wine is a clear underperformer. Their
"Reserva" which is the basic wine of the winery, lacks depth, complexity
and intensity, and I typically find some defects on top of that.

As a result, the wine is now "supermarket wine" and is selling cheaper
every year.

I would not be surprised that they have different lots for different
markets. And I would not be surprised that the worst lots remain in Spain,
where the wine is drank by non-discerning wine drinkers that think that
Riscal is still good.

However, they know how to make great wine, as proved by their 150
Aniversario line. I tasted 2001 and 2004 and, wow, that's serious Rioja.
Price is 40 euro and not 10 euro,

> For my tastes (pretty opposite of yours I think!) the best Rioja
> candidates for aging are the more traditional properties such as
> CVNE, La Rioja Alta, and LdH. But I haven't tasted that many recent
> vintage Riojas.


La Rioja Alta is back on track and recent releases are drinking very well,
pure, with distinction and a clear La Rioja Alta style (meaty, with a touch
of barnyard). And this is happening with the crianza Viña Alberdi. Sadly,
most of La Rioja Alta is also supermarket wine and it is difficult to be
100% of provenance.

CVNE and, specifically, Viña Real, is back on track. I have been drinking
the Viña Real Reserva 2010 (another 12,90 euro supermarket wine) with
delight. Last bottle... yesterday.

López de Heredia, I must confess that I only enjoy in big vintages.
Tondonia 2002 I found a bit lean for my tastes.

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Michael Nielsen > wrote in
:
>
> That could be. I was thinking that might be the case. Funny, Riscal
> is on sale this week in the supermarket, with promises of awards from
> wine spectator.


That's it: Riscal, the wine that is discounted at supermarkets.

But... get one, pop the cork, drink. Like? Go empty the shelves!!!

That's what I would do, anyway. The only palate that I trust 99% of the
time, is mine.

s.
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On Friday, May 15, 2015 at 7:51:03 PM UTC+2, Bi!! wrote:
> I think Napa and Bordeaux have little in common from a stylistic standpoint in terms of red wine. I have access to a fair amount of well aged Bordeaux and Napa as well as more current releases. I find the current release wines to be vastly different from each other in terms of Napa v Bordeaux.


But while I prefer the heavier napa wines when young, maybe I would prefer the bordeauxs when aged. Like what I recently found out about that I prefer aged cornas, while the young ones are not significantly different from new world syrah. And like a 4y oak LBV is ready to drink on release and a 2y oak vintage port is better after decades of aging. Like I find the leaner french inspired napa wines like BV Latour, KJ Stature, SG Cadmium lesser when young than the heavier reserve cabs, but when I then taste the older versions, I suddenly give them top grade.

> Ripeness levels and use of oak seem to be the biggest differences so if you prefer lush, concentrated, higher alcohol wines with a fair amount of oak then Napa would fit the bill at the same price point as Bordeaux.


There are differences and overlaps. in the way I put wine types in boxes, 50$+ napa cabs/meritages and Bordeaux are in the same box. Ill even toss in italian and slovenian premium cabs, argentina reserves and tupertuscans and even some brunellos in that same box. Same structure, dark broken down fruits and a nice topping of soil as well.

The differences between those wines are insignificant compared to the difference to for example the smoky stony olive tasting Cornasses and crozes hermitage, which are in a box of their own.

Fruity peppery syrah - some rhone and some new world are in another box. Thats significantly different from the napa box.

My groupings are more affected by what standard it is made to be. The mouth feel and depth of the wine is how I group them, not where they are from. So you can have some burgundies in the same box as some barolos. Not long ago I had a very surprising barolo that I would place in the napa/bordeaux box. (still talking about mental boxes).

Another barolo is in the same box as some burgundies. The Ladoix I had recently is together with Marimar cristina and kistler. Another box is for fruity pinot noir like Forefront, KJ, Beringer and argentina pinots.

Trying to find hte common denominator here. Maybe my groupings are based more on tertiary tastes and textures than primary notes.

My boxes are big enough to have variations inside them, but you are more likely to find a 100$ pauillac in next to a 70$ napa than a Beringer Founders Cabernet next to the Knights valley. Those are more significantly different. Founders belong more in the "Cheap chile wine" box together with a lot of salento wines (again despite its name, it is a style not an area). basically a box with pointless characterless diluted or bitter wines.

This also means that a 20y old napa or bordeaux will be in another category than the same 5y wine. For example, a young cornas will be in the new world syrah box until it grows up to earn its place in the cornas box.




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