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Default Viognier


I had a 5E Trivento viognier Argentina for cooking and had a glass to taste what it is. No prior experience with viognier.

Was surprised to find that it reminds me of the nice fat body of a chardonnay. So maybe I should look into some higher quality viognier this summer.

What do you think? Am I right that it is somehow related to chardonnay? do they make nice reserves with some oak aging for "white red-like wines" like chardonnay?

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Viognier?

Think Condrieu.

Some excellent examples from Australia and New Zealand - probably not in
your neck of the woods.

st.helier



"Michael Nielsen" wrote in message
...


I had a 5E Trivento viognier Argentina for cooking and had a glass to taste
what it is. No prior experience with viognier.

Was surprised to find that it reminds me of the nice fat body of a
chardonnay. So maybe I should look into some higher quality viognier this
summer.

What do you think? Am I right that it is somehow related to chardonnay? do
they make nice reserves with some oak aging for "white red-like wines" like
chardonnay?

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On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 6:22:37 AM UTC+2, st.helier wrote:
> Viognier?
>
> Think Condrieu.
>


"Often the wine is full bodied and rich in a style that is texturally similarly to Chardonnay."

So its not just me
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In message >
Michael Nielsen > wrote:

> On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 6:22:37 AM UTC+2, st.helier wrote:
>> Viognier?
>>
>> Think Condrieu.
>>


> "Often the wine is full bodied and rich in a style that is texturally
> similarly to Chardonnay."


> So its not just me


But gentically it is related, according to ”Wine Grapes,• quite
closely and not surprisingly when one thinks Condrieu. to Syrah, as
well as to Mondeuse Blanche and, remotely through another variety, to
Nebbiolo.
There are some good ones at good value in the Ardeche as well.

Tim Hartley
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On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 5:38:15 PM UTC+2, Michael Nielsen wrote:
> Was surprised to find that it reminds me of the nice fat body of a chardonnay.


Surprised about the parallel with chardonnay, I do not see it.

For top quality wine, the grape is very picky about where it grows. In my experience, light and elegant with fine apricot citrusy aroma around Condrieu, heavy sickly syrupy anywhere else in Europe. Maybe in other continents?

Definitely appeals to the ladies. (not a sexist remark, just an observation)



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Mike Tommasi > wrote in
:
>
> Surprised about the parallel with chardonnay, I do not see it.


Neither do I.

>
> For top quality wine, the grape is very picky about where it grows. In
> my experience, light and elegant with fine apricot citrusy aroma
> around Condrieu, heavy sickly syrupy anywhere else in Europe. Maybe in
> other continents?



I normally find it cloying and too thick, without enough acidity. I
normally get bored with the second sip.

But I never had a White Rhone that I really liked (including Rayas white).



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On Friday, April 24, 2015 at 8:20:21 PM UTC+2, santiago wrote:
>
> I normally find it cloying and too thick, without enough acidity. I
> normally get bored with the second sip.
>
> But I never had a White Rhone that I really liked (including Rayas white).


Cloying and thick without acidity sounds wonderful. too bad the only condrieu I can find here is 70E. Not gonna try that. Id rather just get a trusty napa chard at 40E.
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Michael Nielsen said:

>
> Cloying and thick without acidity sounds wonderful.



De gustibus non est disputandum !!!



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On Saturday, April 25, 2015 at 12:22:38 AM UTC+2, santiago wrote:
> Michael Nielsen said:
>
> >
> > Cloying and thick without acidity sounds wonderful.

>
>
> De gustibus non est disputandum !!!


yes one has the right to like unbalanced wines ;-)

White Rhone? St Joseph white can be great. Chateauneuf white from Domaine de la Janasse is very good. Lirac white frim Dom. de la Mordorée. But yes they are exceptions.
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Mike Tommasi > wrote :
>
> Chateauneuf white from
> Domaine de la Janasse is very good.




Had it once... I liked it and was very happy to have put it in a taste with
friends. But I did not purchase more to drink or lay down for some time.




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On 4/25/2015 9:22 AM, santiago wrote:
> Mike Tommasi > wrote :
>>
>> Chateauneuf white from
>> Domaine de la Janasse is very good.

>
>
>
> Had it once... I liked it and was very happy to have put it in a taste with
> friends. But I did not purchase more to drink or lay down for some time.
>
>

I've not had much reason to say "Viognier" but it occurred to me find
its pronunciation today. From the web I find it's "vee ànn yáy", which
is easier than some of my attempts. I suppose "ànn" represents a French
nasal "O".

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not." in Reply To.
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On Saturday, April 25, 2015 at 12:22:38 AM UTC+2, santiago wrote:
>
> De gustibus non est disputandum !!!


Well, Im not into whites because of their lack of body and their high acid. So finding a type of white that has body and not acidic can only be a plus over the usual alternative
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Michael Nielsen wrote:

>
> Well, Im not into whites because of their lack of body and their high
> acid. So finding a type of white that has body and not acidic can only
> be a plus over the usual alternative



Michael, when I said De gustibus... I really meant it!

No need to explain your preferences. I happen to like wines with acidity,
including whites and reds.

Let me suggest you try Rafa Palacios As Sortes 2010, 2011, or 2012 from
D.O. Valdeorras in Galice. Godello (the grape it is made from) is not very
acid and Rafa works very well with oak so the wine is full and rounded
without being cloying. It drinks so well at age 2 or 3.

It is not inexpensive, at around 30 euro retail in Spain. He makes a second
wine called Louro which is also nice, but a step down in all magnitudes
(intensity, volume, etc). And beware that 2013 was a very difficult year in
the area.



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On 25/04/2015 8:15 AM, James Silverton wrote:
> On 4/25/2015 9:22 AM, santiago wrote:
>> Mike Tommasi > wrote :
>>>
>>> Chateauneuf white from
>>> Domaine de la Janasse is very good.

>>
>>
>>
>> Had it once... I liked it and was very happy to have put it in a taste
>> with
>> friends. But I did not purchase more to drink or lay down for some time.
>>
>>

> I've not had much reason to say "Viognier" but it occurred to me find
> its pronunciation today. From the web I find it's "vee ànn yáy", which
> is easier than some of my attempts. I suppose "ànn" represents a French
> nasal "O".
>

It's the short "O" sound not Viownyay or Vyownyay.
It seems to be an ignorant, middle class affectation to lengthen vowel
sounds. Risotto becomes "rizoatoh" and I don't know where Coasta Rica is:-)

--
"It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion
will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the
political power to do so."
Sir Arthur C. Clark



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On 4/25/2015 1:31 PM, graham wrote:
> On 25/04/2015 8:15 AM, James Silverton wrote:
>> On 4/25/2015 9:22 AM, santiago wrote:
>>> Mike Tommasi > wrote :
>>>>
>>>> Chateauneuf white from
>>>> Domaine de la Janasse is very good.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Had it once... I liked it and was very happy to have put it in a taste
>>> with
>>> friends. But I did not purchase more to drink or lay down for some time.
>>>
>>>

>> I've not had much reason to say "Viognier" but it occurred to me find
>> its pronunciation today. From the web I find it's "vee ànn yáy", which
>> is easier than some of my attempts. I suppose "ànn" represents a French
>> nasal "O".
>>

> It's the short "O" sound not Viownyay or Vyownyay.
> It seems to be an ignorant, middle class affectation to lengthen vowel
> sounds. Risotto becomes "rizoatoh" and I don't know where Coasta Rica is:-)
>

I was avoiding ASCII IPA and thus "O" just represents the letter "o" but
it would be short like you say.

--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)

Extraneous "not." in Reply To.


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On Saturday, April 25, 2015 at 5:44:26 PM UTC+2, santiago wrote:
> It is not inexpensive, at around 30 euro retail in Spain. He makes a second
> wine called Louro which is also nice, but a step down in all magnitudes
> (intensity, volume, etc). And beware that 2013 was a very difficult year in
> the area.


Its available in Aalborg (the town I am from), so I might try it some day when I visit my family.

I looked around for viognier where I live. And it is very rare.

I came across this one:

Laurent Miquel - Vérité Viognier

look interesting. Might use it next weekend when I have guests.
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> I came across this one:
>
> Laurent Miquel - Vérité Viognier
>


Note from CT:

"Part fermented and matured in oak, this has a very interesting nose: note the simple Languedoc viognier you might expect, and feeling more Condrieu-like, with some smokiness behind the viognier fruit. Very elegant and silky on the palate. Carries the oak very well. Pretty impressive."
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On Sunday, April 26, 2015 at 4:28:46 PM UTC+2, Michael Nielsen wrote:
> > I came across this one:
> >
> > Laurent Miquel - Vérité Viognier
> >

>
> Note from CT:
>
> "Part fermented and matured in oak, this has a very interesting nose: note the simple Languedoc viognier you might expect, and feeling more Condrieu-like, with some smokiness behind the viognier fruit. Very elegant and silky on the palate. Carries the oak very well. Pretty impressive."


Michael

when you say you don't like whites because of "lack of body and their high acid", I am not sure if you are trolling ;-)

Anyhow, like I said, outside of Condrieu, Viognier will tend to be heavy, and by that I do not mean it would have body, because viognier does not have much body, it is all about airy fine aromatics on a not so acid base.

If you want whites with body, you must look in Burgundy.
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On Sunday, April 26, 2015 at 7:28:47 PM UTC+2, Mike Tommasi wrote:
> when you say you don't like whites because of "lack of body and their high acid", I am not sure if you are trolling ;-)


Well if you look at my win enotes from tastings that have whites in them, you will find that I mean it. Tastings with a high presence of whites tend to get a lot of 1 stars.

> Anyhow, like I said, outside of Condrieu, Viognier will tend to be heavy, and by that I do not mean it would have body, because viognier does not have much body, it is all about airy fine aromatics on a not so acid base.
>
> If you want whites with body, you must look in Burgundy.


Confused. I had a lot of Chablis, since it is chardonnay and I tend to like that ( from a california/aussie standpoint). and I find them lacking and not earning their name "chardonnay" and much less their price, while a 50$ Napa Chard very much earns its price.

For the party on friday I am considering that Verite viognier , or Pine Ridge Dijon Clone Chardonnay or Beringer Luminus Oak Knoll chard. I am thinking it could be a good day to test the viognier, because if I dont like it, others might. I also havent tried the two chards, but it is more likely I will like them, but then ofc. they cost twice as much. The same as the Ramey, which gets a better review on CT.
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On Sunday, April 26, 2015 at 10:16:02 PM UTC+2, Michael Nielsen wrote:
> Confused. I had a lot of Chablis, since it is chardonnay and I tend to like that ( from a california/aussie standpoint). and I find them lacking and not earning their name "chardonnay" and much less their price, while a 50$ Napa Chard very much earns its price.


You are tasting the wrong ones. No Cal chard comes close to a good Chablis. BTW, they will tend to have a pronounced acidity (among other things), so given your tastes, for Burgundy I would stick to more southern ones from the Côte de Beaune or around Macon.

> For the party on friday I am considering that Verite viognier , or Pine Ridge Dijon Clone Chardonnay or Beringer Luminus Oak Knoll chard. I am thinking it could be a good day to test the viognier, because if I dont like it, others might. I also havent tried the two chards, but it is more likely I will like them, but then ofc. they cost twice as much. The same as the Ramey, which gets a better review on CT.


Just be aware that any oak will almost certainly ruin a viognier. Except for sweet ones from air dried grapes, maybe.


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On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 12:13:51 PM UTC+2, Mike Tommasi wrote:
> You are tasting the wrong ones. No Cal chard comes close to a good Chablis. BTW, they will tend to have a pronounced acidity (among other things), so given your tastes, for Burgundy I would stick to more southern ones from the Côte de Beaune or around Macon.


Ive been told to check out Meursault instead of Chablis, given my preferences. But they are costly.

> Just be aware that any oak will almost certainly ruin a viognier. Except for sweet ones from air dried grapes, maybe.


The descriptions I read say it handles oak quite well. [e.g. Karen McNeil wine bible).
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Michael Nielsen > wrote in
:
>
> Ive been told to check out Meursault instead of Chablis, given my
> preferences. But they are costly.


Try Saint Aubin if it has to be Côte d'Or or Macon as suggested by Mike.
There are good producers that make excellent Macon wines at fair prices.
Domaine Leflaive (Macon-Verze) and Comtes Lafon (Macon-Villages) are two
examples.

Considering your preferences, I think you will like the Macon-Villages by
Comte Lafon. 2011 is a ripe vintage (I would rather have 2010 or 2012 but
you may end up liking 2011 better).

s.
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On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 7:10:06 PM UTC+2, santiago wrote:
> Try Saint Aubin if it has to be Côte d'Or or Macon as suggested by Mike..
> There are good producers that make excellent Macon wines at fair prices.
> Domaine Leflaive (Macon-Verze) and Comtes Lafon (Macon-Villages) are two
> examples.
>
> Considering your preferences, I think you will like the Macon-Villages by
> Comte Lafon. 2011 is a ripe vintage (I would rather have 2010 or 2012 but
> you may end up liking 2011 better).


I had Macon Villages at a recent tasting but from Drouhin. and it wasnt 2011:

2013 Macon Villages, Cote Maconnaise, J. Drouhin **

I normally like chardonnay, because it is not boring like other whites. this is just a boring white, some lemon.

Comtes Lafon is not on my usual stores. However, they might have that producer in a new wine department in a department store here.
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On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 12:22:02 PM UTC+2, Michael Nielsen wrote:
> The descriptions I read say it handles oak quite well. [e.g. Karen McNeil wine bible).


I don't know who Karen McNeil is, but in this case one can say she is wrong ;-)

It is a little like albariño: Santiago why do so many winemakers use oak on it? Sure it handles oak quite well. You end up with a wine where the delicate aromas and superb fruitiness of the grape are masked ;-)

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On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 11:55:36 AM UTC+2, Mike Tommasi wrote:
> It is a little like albariño: Santiago why do so many winemakers use oak on it? Sure it handles oak quite well. You end up with a wine where the delicate aromas and superb fruitiness of the grape are masked ;-)


Maybe there's plenty of people like me around who loves the way oak breaks down the fruit, so it is not a fruit juice?


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In message >
Michael Nielsen > wrote:

> On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 11:55:36 AM UTC+2, Mike Tommasi wrote:
>> It is a little like albariño: Santiago why do so many winemakers use
>> oak on it? Sure it handles oak quite well. You end up with a wine
>> where the delicate aromas and superb fruitiness of the grape are
>> masked ;-)


> Maybe there's plenty of people like me around who loves the way oak
> breaks down the fruit, so it is not a fruit juice?



And a lot if us who hate the way over use of oak so dominates the wine
that it is turned into oak juice.

Tim Hartley
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Mike Tommasi > wrote in
:
>
> It is a little like albariño: Santiago why do so many winemakers use
> oak on it?



Are you sure "so many" use oak? I think oaked Albariño (at least in D.O.
Rias Baixas) should be around 5% of total production, at most.


> Sure it handles oak quite well.


I disagree!


> You end up with a wine
> where the delicate aromas and superb fruitiness of the grape are
> masked ;-)
>


Now I agree. What I value in Albariño is freshness and fruitiness and the
ability to show terroir.

The cool thing right now in Rias Baixas is allowing the wine to mature on
its lees for a couple of years. Tricó, Albariño de Fefiñanes III año, Do
Ferreiro Cepas Vellas or Pazo de Selección de Añada are good examples of
that.

I only like one Albariño that sees oak: Zárate Palomar, from Salnés area.
Superb terroir, organic viticulture, very tame use of oak, you just
perceive a hint of volume and a bit of smoke. But then my favorite wine
from Zárate is Balado, which sees no oak.

Albariño, with its vivid acidity, is not for Michael, I fear.


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On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 3:46:10 PM UTC+2, santiago wrote:
> Mike Tommasi > wrote in
> :
> >
> > It is a little like albariño: Santiago why do so many winemakers use
> > oak on it?

>
>
> Are you sure "so many" use oak? I think oaked Albariño (at least in D.O..
> Rias Baixas) should be around 5% of total production, at most.
>
>
> > Sure it handles oak quite well.

>
> I disagree!
>
>
> > You end up with a wine
> > where the delicate aromas and superb fruitiness of the grape are
> > masked ;-)
> >

>
> Now I agree. What I value in Albariño is freshness and fruitiness and the
> ability to show terroir.
>
> The cool thing right now in Rias Baixas is allowing the wine to mature on
> its lees for a couple of years. Tricó, Albariño de Fefiñanes III año, Do
> Ferreiro Cepas Vellas or Pazo de Selección de Añada are good examples of
> that.
>
> I only like one Albariño that sees oak: Zárate Palomar, from Salnés area.
> Superb terroir, organic viticulture, very tame use of oak, you just
> perceive a hint of volume and a bit of smoke. But then my favorite wine
> from Zárate is Balado, which sees no oak.
>
> Albariño, with its vivid acidity, is not for Michael, I fear.


where's the like button on this usenet thing? :-)
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On Sunday, April 26, 2015 at 4:28:46 PM UTC+2, Michael Nielsen wrote:
> > I came across this one:
> >
> > Laurent Miquel - Vérité Viognier
> >


Today will be judgement day for this one
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Michael Nielsen > wrote in news:4f01d487-b42c-
:

> On Sunday, April 26, 2015 at 4:28:46 PM UTC+2, Michael Nielsen wrote:
>> > I came across this one:
>> >
>> > Laurent Miquel - Vérité Viognier
>> >

>
> Today will be judgement day for this one



Today you can buy Guigal Condrieu 2013 in
www.1jour1vin.com at a price of
29,90 euro / bottle, TTC, and shipping to Denmark should not be expensive.
They also have other whites from Guigal.

I have not tasted the wine but since we were talking Condrieu...

If anyone here wants to join, I think I can invite you and I get a discount
voucher (and maybe you too, but not sure about that). Let me be your
parrain!

1jour1vin.com works well, maybe the prices are not the best available, but
it sure allows me to taste French wines that are not easily available in
Spain, and the shipping is decent once you go beyond 12 bottles (like 25
euro fixed rate). I usually buy with a group of friends to split shipping
costs.

Sometimes I get bad wines, though, like the horrid Alain Jaume Gigondas
2012 that we opened yesterday. Dark, closed, with sulphur, no fruit, just
oak and not the best one, quite sour. Declares 14,5% alcohol but tastes
like grapes were unripe. Quel horreur! And I still have a Vacqueyras 2013
from the same producer. Ups.

s.


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