Jean and I have found over the past few years that we've gravitated
toward the red-fruited end of the Pinot Noir fruit spectrum, preferring
by-and-large the bright, juicy, red-fruited version of the grape. Since
then, I've noticed a trend in those same wines: as they get older, the
fruit becomes darker (usually more in the vein of black cherry) and the
wine takes on greater depth and richness at the expense of freshness.
We have observed this with Pinot Noir from various regions (Burgundy,
California and New Zealand). Our most recent case in point was
tonight's wine:

2007 Amisfield Pinot Noir (Central Otago)
nose: initially sappy, black cherry, growing spicy with time
palate: smooth, velvety tannins, medium body, balanced acidity

We've had a few bottles of this wine, as well as the '08 version while
in Australia, and it has grown distinctly darker over time, veering from
red cherry to black cherry.

So, my questions for everyone a

1. Have others observed this phenomenon?
2. If so, how do others feel about this transformation of the grape?

Mark Lipton

On Jun 12, 12:12*am, Mark Lipton > wrote:
> Jean and I have found over the past few years that we've gravitated
> toward the red-fruited end of the Pinot Noir fruit spectrum, preferring
> by-and-large the bright, juicy, red-fruited version of the grape. *Since
> then, I've noticed a trend in those same wines: as they get older, the
> fruit becomes darker (usually more in the vein of black cherry) and the
> wine takes on greater depth and richness at the expense of freshness.
> We have observed this with Pinot Noir from various regions (Burgundy,
> California and New Zealand). *Our most recent case in point was
> tonight's wine:
>
> 2007 Amisfield Pinot Noir (Central Otago)
> nose: initially sappy, black cherry, growing spicy with time
> palate: smooth, velvety tannins, medium body, balanced acidity
>
> We've had a few bottles of this wine, as well as the '08 version while
> in Australia, and it has grown distinctly darker over time, veering from
> red cherry to black cherry.
>
> So, my questions for everyone a
>
> 1. *Have others observed this phenomenon?
> 2. *If so, how do others feel about this transformation of the grape?
>
> Mark Lipton

Hi Mark-I too have observed this trend. I made a couple of
assumptions based on nothing more than my own observations. I think
that "Parker" and many critics likes this style of pinot better than
the red fruited style so the growers and vintners tend to be moving to
that clonal selection more and more. Personally I like it when it's
well made and to me represents the difference (very generally
speaking) between Cote de Nuits and Cote de Beaune. Unfortunately too
many times the vintners go overboard (think Aubert or Marcassin) and
produce over extracted over oaked monstrous pinots that are closer to
Syrah in nature than Pinot Noir. Just my 2 cents.

On Jun 12, 8:26*am, "Bi!!" > wrote:
> On Jun 12, 12:12*am, Mark Lipton > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Jean and I have found over the past few years that we've gravitated
> > toward the red-fruited end of the Pinot Noir fruit spectrum, preferring
> > by-and-large the bright, juicy, red-fruited version of the grape. *Since
> > then, I've noticed a trend in those same wines: as they get older, the
> > fruit becomes darker (usually more in the vein of black cherry) and the
> > wine takes on greater depth and richness at the expense of freshness.
> > We have observed this with Pinot Noir from various regions (Burgundy,
> > California and New Zealand). *Our most recent case in point was
> > tonight's wine:
>
> > 2007 Amisfield Pinot Noir (Central Otago)
> > nose: initially sappy, black cherry, growing spicy with time
> > palate: smooth, velvety tannins, medium body, balanced acidity
>
> > We've had a few bottles of this wine, as well as the '08 version while
> > in Australia, and it has grown distinctly darker over time, veering from
> > red cherry to black cherry.
>
> > So, my questions for everyone a
>
> > 1. *Have others observed this phenomenon?
> > 2. *If so, how do others feel about this transformation of the grape?
>
> > Mark Lipton
>
> Hi Mark-I too have observed this trend. *I made a couple of
> assumptions based on nothing more than my own observations. *I think
> that "Parker" and many critics likes this style of pinot better than
> the red fruited style so the growers and vintners tend to be moving to
> that clonal selection more and more. *Personally I like it when it's
> well made and to me represents the difference (very generally
> speaking) between Cote de Nuits and Cote de Beaune. *Unfortunately too
> many times the vintners go overboard (think Aubert or Marcassin) and
> produce over extracted over oaked monstrous pinots that are closer to
> Syrah in nature than Pinot Noir. *Just my 2 cents.

I also wonder about some of the wine makers adding Syrah to the blend
and getting the darker color and deeper but less fresh taste. If it is
just clonal selection, my preference is to go back to the older
lighter colored style as I find many of the pinots becoming much more
tannic and longer to resolve. Of course, my preference in Burgundy is
Cote de Nuits.

On 6/12/12 11:29 AM, lleichtman wrote:

>> Hi Mark-I too have observed this trend. I made a couple of
>> assumptions based on nothing more than my own observations. I think
>> that "Parker" and many critics likes this style of pinot better than
>> the red fruited style so the growers and vintners tend to be moving to
>> that clonal selection more and more. Personally I like it when it's
>> well made and to me represents the difference (very generally
>> speaking) between Cote de Nuits and Cote de Beaune. Unfortunately too
>> many times the vintners go overboard (think Aubert or Marcassin) and
>> produce over extracted over oaked monstrous pinots that are closer to
>> Syrah in nature than Pinot Noir. Just my 2 cents.
>
> I also wonder about some of the wine makers adding Syrah to the blend
> and getting the darker color and deeper but less fresh taste. If it is
> just clonal selection, my preference is to go back to the older
> lighter colored style as I find many of the pinots becoming much more
> tannic and longer to resolve. Of course, my preference in Burgundy is
> Cote de Nuits.

Gentlemen,
I appreciate the responses, but suspect that we're talking at
cross-purposes. I agree about the overextracted, Syrah wannabe PNs, but
what I'm talking about here is a PN that starts out its life (at
release) as a red-fruited, light and bright wine but becomes, after a
few years of bottle age, a darker-fruited, deeper and less bright wine.
Does this ring any bells with you?

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

On Jun 12, 2:30*pm, Mark Lipton > wrote:
> On 6/12/12 11:29 AM, lleichtman wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Hi Mark-I too have observed this trend. *I made a couple of
> >> assumptions based on nothing more than my own observations. *I think
> >> that "Parker" and many critics likes this style of pinot better than
> >> the red fruited style so the growers and vintners tend to be moving to
> >> that clonal selection more and more. *Personally I like it when it's
> >> well made and to me represents the difference (very generally
> >> speaking) between Cote de Nuits and Cote de Beaune. *Unfortunately too
> >> many times the vintners go overboard (think Aubert or Marcassin) and
> >> produce over extracted over oaked monstrous pinots that are closer to
> >> Syrah in nature than Pinot Noir. *Just my 2 cents.
>
> > I also wonder about some of the wine makers adding Syrah to the blend
> > and getting the darker color and deeper but less fresh taste. If it is
> > just clonal selection, my preference is to go back to the older
> > lighter colored style as I find many of the pinots becoming much more
> > tannic and longer to resolve. Of course, my preference in Burgundy is
> > Cote de Nuits.
>
> Gentlemen,
> * *I appreciate the responses, but suspect that we're talking at
> cross-purposes. *I agree about the overextracted, Syrah wannabe PNs, but
> what I'm talking about here is a PN that starts out its life (at
> release) as a red-fruited, light and bright wine but becomes, after a
> few years of bottle age, a darker-fruited, deeper and less bright wine.
> *Does this ring any bells with you?
>
> Mark Lipton
>
> --
> alt.food.wine FAQ: *http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

OK, I haven't really noticed this in the Californian or Oregonian
pinots I have. They seem to stay the same color for me. I pulled out a
selection of 3-9 year old pinots and did not notice any darkening.

On Jun 12, 4:30*pm, Mark Lipton > wrote:
> On 6/12/12 11:29 AM, lleichtman wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Hi Mark-I too have observed this trend. *I made a couple of
> >> assumptions based on nothing more than my own observations. *I think
> >> that "Parker" and many critics likes this style of pinot better than
> >> the red fruited style so the growers and vintners tend to be moving to
> >> that clonal selection more and more. *Personally I like it when it's
> >> well made and to me represents the difference (very generally
> >> speaking) between Cote de Nuits and Cote de Beaune. *Unfortunately too
> >> many times the vintners go overboard (think Aubert or Marcassin) and
> >> produce over extracted over oaked monstrous pinots that are closer to
> >> Syrah in nature than Pinot Noir. *Just my 2 cents.
>
> > I also wonder about some of the wine makers adding Syrah to the blend
> > and getting the darker color and deeper but less fresh taste. If it is
> > just clonal selection, my preference is to go back to the older
> > lighter colored style as I find many of the pinots becoming much more
> > tannic and longer to resolve. Of course, my preference in Burgundy is
> > Cote de Nuits.
>
> Gentlemen,
> * *I appreciate the responses, but suspect that we're talking at
> cross-purposes. *I agree about the overextracted, Syrah wannabe PNs, but
> what I'm talking about here is a PN that starts out its life (at
> release) as a red-fruited, light and bright wine but becomes, after a
> few years of bottle age, a darker-fruited, deeper and less bright wine.
> *Does this ring any bells with you?
>
> Mark Lipton
>
> --
> alt.food.wine FAQ: *http://winefaq.cwdjr.net- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text

I've seen it in a few wines from Domaine Serene from Oregon but no
California wines that I can recall. Occasionally a Volnay will go
dark as I recall some Nicolas Rossignol Volnay that has darkened as it
has aged.

On Jun 12, 3:30*pm, Mark Lipton > wrote:
> On 6/12/12 11:29 AM, lleichtman wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Hi Mark-I too have observed this trend. *I made a couple of
> >> assumptions based on nothing more than my own observations. *I think
> >> that "Parker" and many critics likes this style of pinot better than
> >> the red fruited style so the growers and vintners tend to be moving to
> >> that clonal selection more and more. *Personally I like it when it's
> >> well made and to me represents the difference (very generally
> >> speaking) between Cote de Nuits and Cote de Beaune. *Unfortunately too
> >> many times the vintners go overboard (think Aubert or Marcassin) and
> >> produce over extracted over oaked monstrous pinots that are closer to
> >> Syrah in nature than Pinot Noir. *Just my 2 cents.
>
> > I also wonder about some of the wine makers adding Syrah to the blend
> > and getting the darker color and deeper but less fresh taste. If it is
> > just clonal selection, my preference is to go back to the older
> > lighter colored style as I find many of the pinots becoming much more
> > tannic and longer to resolve. Of course, my preference in Burgundy is
> > Cote de Nuits.
>
> Gentlemen,
> * *I appreciate the responses, but suspect that we're talking at
> cross-purposes. *I agree about the overextracted, Syrah wannabe PNs, but
> what I'm talking about here is a PN that starts out its life (at
> release) as a red-fruited, light and bright wine but becomes, after a
> few years of bottle age, a darker-fruited, deeper and less bright wine.
> *Does this ring any bells with you?

The top red Burgundy wines of 1971 often were very light in color at
first, but many became considerably darker with age. Some blamed the
low pH and or high SO2 content for this effect, but I have no idea if
this is true. In any event, the 1971s were a quite variable lot. Some
turned out great with age and became darker and more complex. Others
started to decline very early, and the nearly pink color of some of
these soon became light brown. I still have a few 1971 red Burgandy
wines that are good and of a more typical Burgundy color than when
young. However many 1971s should have been buried a few decades ago.