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Old 24-04-2012, 08:30 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Sticker shock

I just saw some estimated prices for the much ballyhooed '09 Bdx wines.
It's been a few years since I last paid much attention to new releases
of Bdx, but my first reaction was one of shock. First growth pricing
was consistently at $1000-2000 per bottle and many former (relative)
bargains such as Montrose and Pichon-Lalande are going for $300-350 a
bottle. Granted, there were a few standouts such as Gruaud-Larose and
Leoville-Barton that still had reasonable pricing, but they were the
rare exception. It was not that long ago that most of these wines were
retailing for 1/4-1/5 of their current prices.

Some of this is the result of RMP's hype:
http://www.independent.co.uk/money/spend-save/wine-investors-raise-a-glass-to-the-2009-bordeaux-7553609.html

but that only explains a fraction of the overall effect. So, has it
been demand from China that's fueled this rise? Growing demand and
limited supply?

Cornfuzzedly yours,
Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net

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Old 25-04-2012, 03:01 AM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Sticker shock

On Apr 24, 1:30*pm, Mark Lipton wrote:
I just saw some estimated prices for the much ballyhooed '09 Bdx wines.
*It's been a few years since I last paid much attention to new releases
of Bdx, but my first reaction was one of shock. *First growth pricing
was consistently at $1000-2000 per bottle and many former (relative)
bargains such as Montrose and Pichon-Lalande are going for $300-350 a
bottle. *Granted, there were a few standouts such as Gruaud-Larose and
Leoville-Barton that still had reasonable pricing, but they were the
rare exception. *It was not that long ago that most of these wines were
retailing for 1/4-1/5 of their current prices.

Some of this is the result of RMP's hype:
http://www.independent.co.uk/money/spend-save/wine-investors-raise-a-...

but that only explains a fraction of the overall effect. *So, has it
been demand from China that's fueled this rise? *Growing demand and
limited supply?

Cornfuzzedly yours,
Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: *http://winefaq.cwdjr.net


Well, I guess I won't be buying any top tier growths. Hope this
doesn't extend down the line. Looks like the Chinese are really
skewing the market.
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Old 25-04-2012, 03:29 AM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Sticker shock

On Apr 24, 2:30*pm, Mark Lipton wrote:
I just saw some estimated prices for the much ballyhooed '09 Bdx wines.
*It's been a few years since I last paid much attention to new releases
of Bdx, but my first reaction was one of shock. *First growth pricing
was consistently at $1000-2000 per bottle and many former (relative)
bargains such as Montrose and Pichon-Lalande are going for $300-350 a
bottle. *Granted, there were a few standouts such as Gruaud-Larose and
Leoville-Barton that still had reasonable pricing, but they were the
rare exception. *It was not that long ago that most of these wines were
retailing for 1/4-1/5 of their current prices.

Some of this is the result of RMP's hype:
http://www.independent.co.uk/money/spend-save/wine-investors-raise-a-...

but that only explains a fraction of the overall effect. *So, has it
been demand from China that's fueled this rise? *Growing demand and
limited supply?

I recently received a spring catalog from Brown Derby that gave prices
for several recent vintages of higher end Bordeaux wines. It seems
elevated prices are here to stay. Yes increased demand from China and
several other nations in Asia no doubt has something to do with high
prices. In general rich persons in Asia are much more likely to be
willing to pay very high prices for rare food and drink than are many
Americans, for example. For example, if you are the CEO of a major
Bank in Asia, you would not want to serve an important guest or client
anything other than the "best", whatever that is. This attitude likely
was responsible for Lafite being priced well above other first
growths, and even average vintages of Lafite brought a very high
price. Many Asian Lafite drinkers have moved on to other "best" wines,
such as DRC Romanee-Conti and La Tache, and the prices of these wines
have increased an extreme amount recently. Such wines were already
very expensive because of very low production and huge demand.

Even in the US, demand for fine wines has greatly increase from when I
was young. Then a Martini lunch was much more common than a fine wine
lunch. You might have a cheap Chianti in an Italian restaurant. Of
course there were some fine restaurants, often French, then that had
large cellars of fine aged wines, but these mainly were in a few large
cities.

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Old 25-04-2012, 02:23 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Sticker shock

On Tuesday, April 24, 2012 3:30:09 PM UTC-4, Mark Lipton wrote:
I just saw some estimated prices for the much ballyhooed '09 Bdx wines.
It's been a few years since I last paid much attention to new releases
of Bdx, but my first reaction was one of shock. First growth pricing
was consistently at $1000-2000 per bottle and many former (relative)
bargains such as Montrose and Pichon-Lalande are going for $300-350 a
bottle. Granted, there were a few standouts such as Gruaud-Larose and
Leoville-Barton that still had reasonable pricing, but they were the
rare exception. It was not that long ago that most of these wines were
retailing for 1/4-1/5 of their current prices.

Some of this is the result of RMP's hype:
http://www.independent.co.uk/money/spend-save/wine-investors-raise-a-glass-to-the-2009-bordeaux-7553609.html

but that only explains a fraction of the overall effect. So, has it
been demand from China that's fueled this rise? Growing demand and
limited supply?

Cornfuzzedly yours,
Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net


I think the scariest thing is that it's so bad that $80/Gruaud and $90-$110/LeoBarton are being held up as reasonable!
I paid $45 for highly ballyhooed 2003 Barton (04 same price)
2001 was last Gruaud I bought, $28.
Those are definitely outpacing inflation!
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Old 25-04-2012, 04:27 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Sticker shock

On Apr 24, 8:29*pm, cwdjrxyz wrote:
On Apr 24, 2:30*pm, Mark Lipton wrote:







I just saw some estimated prices for the much ballyhooed '09 Bdx wines.
*It's been a few years since I last paid much attention to new releases
of Bdx, but my first reaction was one of shock. *First growth pricing
was consistently at $1000-2000 per bottle and many former (relative)
bargains such as Montrose and Pichon-Lalande are going for $300-350 a
bottle. *Granted, there were a few standouts such as Gruaud-Larose and
Leoville-Barton that still had reasonable pricing, but they were the
rare exception. *It was not that long ago that most of these wines were
retailing for 1/4-1/5 of their current prices.


Some of this is the result of RMP's hype:
http://www.independent.co.uk/money/spend-save/wine-investors-raise-a-....


but that only explains a fraction of the overall effect. *So, has it
been demand from China that's fueled this rise? *Growing demand and
limited supply?


I recently received a spring catalog from Brown Derby that gave prices
for several recent vintages of higher end Bordeaux wines. It seems
elevated prices are here to stay. Yes increased demand from China and
several other nations in Asia no doubt has something to do with high
prices. In general rich persons in Asia are much more likely to be
willing to pay very high prices for rare food and drink than are many
Americans, for example. For example, if you are the CEO of a major
Bank in Asia, you would not want to serve an important guest or client
anything other than the "best", whatever that is. This attitude likely
was responsible for Lafite being priced well above other first
growths, and even average vintages of Lafite brought a very high
price. Many Asian Lafite drinkers have moved on to other "best" wines,
such as DRC Romanee-Conti and La Tache, and the prices of these wines
have increased an extreme amount recently. Such wines were already
very expensive because of very low production and huge demand.

Even in the US, demand for fine wines has greatly increase from when I
was young. Then a Martini lunch was much more common than a fine wine
lunch. You might have a cheap Chianti in an Italian restaurant. Of
course there were some fine restaurants, often French, then that had
large cellars of fine aged wines, but these mainly were in a few large
cities.


And this is contributing to the high rate of counterfeit high end
French wines in China and elsewhere in Asia.


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Old 25-04-2012, 04:32 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Sticker shock

On 4/25/12 9:23 AM, DaleW wrote:

I think the scariest thing is that it's so bad that $80/Gruaud and
$90-$110/LeoBarton are being held up as reasonable! I paid $45 for
highly ballyhooed 2003 Barton (04 same price) 2001 was last Gruaud I
bought, $28. Those are definitely outpacing inflation!


Hmmm... I think that the estimated prices I saw were lower than those
($50-60 IIRC) but your point is still well taken. It is now the rare
Grand Cru Classé that retails for less than three digits. As much as I
love some of the Cru Bourgeois, it still pains me that so many of these
wines are now out of reach for me and, by extension, with the vast
majority of the wine drinking public. Oh, well.

Mark Lipton
--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net
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Old 25-04-2012, 05:02 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Sticker shock

On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:32:38 AM UTC-4, Mark Lipton wrote:
On 4/25/12 9:23 AM, DaleW wrote:

I think the scariest thing is that it's so bad that $80/Gruaud and
$90-$110/LeoBarton are being held up as reasonable! I paid $45 for
highly ballyhooed 2003 Barton (04 same price) 2001 was last Gruaud I
bought, $28. Those are definitely outpacing inflation!


Hmmm... I think that the estimated prices I saw were lower than those
($50-60 IIRC) but your point is still well taken. It is now the rare
Grand Cru Classé that retails for less than three digits. As much as I
love some of the Cru Bourgeois, it still pains me that so many of these
wines are now out of reach for me and, by extension, with the vast
majority of the wine drinking public. Oh, well.

Mark Lipton
--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net


This is EP release time, 2011s are coming out now, 2009s have been on actual market for roughly 2 years
Lowest place that will actually have:
Barton Now PC $89, last year PC $89, 2 years ago Barton not released*
Gruaud Now PJs has for $63, but then big jump to $80 at PC, so I'd be interested if PJs will still confirm at that price. Last year JJB $63, 2 years ago PC $57.

*WS Pro only gives 1 mon, 2 mo, 3 mo, 1 yr, 2 yr, 3 yr, 4 yr options. I'll try to remember to check 2 yr next week, should show Barton
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Old 25-04-2012, 06:35 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Sticker shock

On Apr 25, 12:02*pm, DaleW wrote:
On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:32:38 AM UTC-4, Mark Lipton wrote:
On 4/25/12 9:23 AM, DaleW wrote:


I think the scariest thing is that it's so bad that $80/Gruaud and
$90-$110/LeoBarton are being held up as reasonable! I paid $45 for
highly ballyhooed 2003 Barton (04 same price) 2001 was last Gruaud I
bought, $28. Those are definitely outpacing inflation!


Hmmm... I think that the estimated prices I saw were lower than those
($50-60 IIRC) but your point is still well taken. *It is now the rare
Grand Cru Classé that retails for less than three digits. *As much as I
love some of the Cru Bourgeois, it still pains me that so many of these
wines are now out of reach for me and, by extension, with the vast
majority of the wine drinking public. *Oh, well.


Mark Lipton
--
alt.food.wine FAQ: *http://winefaq.cwdjr.net


This is EP release time, 2011s are coming out now, 2009s have been on actual market for roughly 2 years
Lowest place that will actually have:
Barton Now PC $89, last year PC $89, 2 years ago Barton not released*
Gruaud Now PJs has for $63, but then big jump to $80 at PC, so I'd be interested if PJs will still confirm at that price. Last year JJB $63, 2 years ago PC $57.

*WS Pro only gives 1 mon, 2 mo, 3 mo, 1 yr, 2 yr, 3 yr, 4 yr options. I'll try to remember to check 2 yr next week, should show Barton- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I quit Bordeaux in 2005. Figured I could get more bang for my buck
elsewhere and at age 60 I wasn't going to each maturity with my
bottles anyway.
  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 25-04-2012, 07:30 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Sticker shock

On Apr 25, 11:35*am, "Bi!!" wrote:
On Apr 25, 12:02*pm, DaleW wrote:









On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:32:38 AM UTC-4, Mark Lipton wrote:
On 4/25/12 9:23 AM, DaleW wrote:


I think the scariest thing is that it's so bad that $80/Gruaud and
$90-$110/LeoBarton are being held up as reasonable! I paid $45 for
highly ballyhooed 2003 Barton (04 same price) 2001 was last Gruaud I
bought, $28. Those are definitely outpacing inflation!


Hmmm... I think that the estimated prices I saw were lower than those
($50-60 IIRC) but your point is still well taken. *It is now the rare
Grand Cru Classé that retails for less than three digits. *As much as I
love some of the Cru Bourgeois, it still pains me that so many of these
wines are now out of reach for me and, by extension, with the vast
majority of the wine drinking public. *Oh, well.


Mark Lipton
--
alt.food.wine FAQ: *http://winefaq.cwdjr.net


This is EP release time, 2011s are coming out now, 2009s have been on actual market for roughly 2 years
Lowest place that will actually have:
Barton Now PC $89, last year PC $89, 2 years ago Barton not released*
Gruaud Now PJs has for $63, but then big jump to $80 at PC, so I'd be interested if PJs will still confirm at that price. Last year JJB $63, 2 years ago PC $57.


*WS Pro only gives 1 mon, 2 mo, 3 mo, 1 yr, 2 yr, 3 yr, 4 yr options. I'll try to remember to check 2 yr next week, should show Barton- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


I quit Bordeaux in 2005. *Figured I could get more bang for my buck
elsewhere and at age 60 I wasn't going to each maturity with my
bottles anyway.


I'm with you here. Not buying any wines that need 20 years of age as I
may never drink them.
  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 25-04-2012, 08:00 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Posts: 1,930
Default Sticker shock

On Apr 25, 2:30*pm, lleichtman wrote:
On Apr 25, 11:35*am, "Bi!!" wrote:





On Apr 25, 12:02*pm, DaleW wrote:


On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:32:38 AM UTC-4, Mark Lipton wrote:
On 4/25/12 9:23 AM, DaleW wrote:


I think the scariest thing is that it's so bad that $80/Gruaud and
$90-$110/LeoBarton are being held up as reasonable! I paid $45 for
highly ballyhooed 2003 Barton (04 same price) 2001 was last Gruaud I
bought, $28. Those are definitely outpacing inflation!


Hmmm... I think that the estimated prices I saw were lower than those
($50-60 IIRC) but your point is still well taken. *It is now the rare
Grand Cru Classé that retails for less than three digits. *As much as I
love some of the Cru Bourgeois, it still pains me that so many of these
wines are now out of reach for me and, by extension, with the vast
majority of the wine drinking public. *Oh, well.


Mark Lipton
--
alt.food.wine FAQ: *http://winefaq.cwdjr.net


This is EP release time, 2011s are coming out now, 2009s have been on actual market for roughly 2 years
Lowest place that will actually have:
Barton Now PC $89, last year PC $89, 2 years ago Barton not released*
Gruaud Now PJs has for $63, but then big jump to $80 at PC, so I'd be interested if PJs will still confirm at that price. Last year JJB $63, 2 years ago PC $57.


*WS Pro only gives 1 mon, 2 mo, 3 mo, 1 yr, 2 yr, 3 yr, 4 yr options. I'll try to remember to check 2 yr next week, should show Barton- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


I quit Bordeaux in 2005. *Figured I could get more bang for my buck
elsewhere and at age 60 I wasn't going to each maturity with my
bottles anyway.


I'm with you here. Not buying any wines that need 20 years of age as I
may never drink them.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I guess that's the wine geeks way of saying don't buy green bananas!


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Old 25-04-2012, 08:16 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Sticker shock

On 4/25/12 3:00 PM, Bi!! wrote:

I quit Bordeaux in 2005. Figured I could get more bang for my buck
elsewhere and at age 60 I wasn't going to each maturity with my
bottles anyway.


I'm with you here. Not buying any wines that need 20 years of age as I
may never drink them.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I guess that's the wine geeks way of saying don't buy green bananas!


Not that I'm trying to dissuade either of you, but when I look at my CT
data, I find that the _latest_ start date for a drinking window of any
of the wines in my cellar is 2020 (for, of all things, a 2007 Stony
Hills Chardonnay!). That means that all of the wines I now own will be
drinkable (according to CT, which usually underestimates readiness to my
tastes) before I turn 65 -- even my Dunn Howell Mountains! ;-) Unless
one is buying old school Barolo or Madiran or First Growth Bordeaux
(bringing this thread full circle) I don't see many wines that wouldn't
be approachable at the very least in 5 years' time. Now, the bang for
the buck argument I understand all too well.

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net
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Old 26-04-2012, 03:42 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Sticker shock

On Apr 25, 1:16*pm, Mark Lipton wrote:
On 4/25/12 3:00 PM, Bi!! wrote:

I quit Bordeaux in 2005. *Figured I could get more bang for my buck
elsewhere and at age 60 I wasn't going to each maturity with my
bottles anyway.


I'm with you here. Not buying any wines that need 20 years of age as I
may never drink them.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


I guess that's the wine geeks way of saying don't buy green bananas!


Not that I'm trying to dissuade either of you, but when I look at my CT
data, I find that the _latest_ start date for a drinking window of any
of the wines in my cellar is 2020 (for, of all things, a 2007 Stony
Hills Chardonnay!). *That means that all of the wines I now own will be
drinkable (according to CT, which usually underestimates readiness to my
tastes) before I turn 65 -- even my Dunn Howell Mountains! ;-) *Unless
one is buying old school Barolo or Madiran or First Growth Bordeaux
(bringing this thread full circle) I don't see many wines that wouldn't
be approachable at the very least in 5 years' time. *Now, the bang for
the buck argument I understand all too well.

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: *http://winefaq.cwdjr.net


Well 2020 is only pushing it a tad but the price points still are
daunting. Can do better elsewhere even in France than these.
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Old 26-04-2012, 06:24 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Sticker shock

On Apr 25, 3:16*pm, Mark Lipton wrote:
On 4/25/12 3:00 PM, Bi!! wrote:

I quit Bordeaux in 2005. *Figured I could get more bang for my buck
elsewhere and at age 60 I wasn't going to each maturity with my
bottles anyway.


I'm with you here. Not buying any wines that need 20 years of age as I
may never drink them.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


I guess that's the wine geeks way of saying don't buy green bananas!


Not that I'm trying to dissuade either of you, but when I look at my CT
data, I find that the _latest_ start date for a drinking window of any
of the wines in my cellar is 2020 (for, of all things, a 2007 Stony
Hills Chardonnay!). *That means that all of the wines I now own will be
drinkable (according to CT, which usually underestimates readiness to my
tastes) before I turn 65 -- even my Dunn Howell Mountains! ;-) *Unless
one is buying old school Barolo or Madiran or First Growth Bordeaux
(bringing this thread full circle) I don't see many wines that wouldn't
be approachable at the very least in 5 years' time. *Now, the bang for
the buck argument I understand all too well.

Mark Lipton

--
alt.food.wine FAQ: *http://winefaq.cwdjr.net


Hi Mark. Much of that was just tongue in cheek....you to will be over
60 some day!! ;-) I was really referring to the classified stuff that
I used to buy in case lots...I had stopped buying first growths a few
years prior when pricing jumped in the 2000 vintage. I find that many
classified Bordeaux in the "great" vintage years ( and I don't know
what that means anymore since it seems that every other year is the
vintage of the century) need at least 10 years in the cellar for my
tastes but I'm just now drinking Cal Cabs from the mid to late 90's as
well as many Rhone and Bordeaux wines.
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Old 26-04-2012, 08:28 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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On 4/26/12 1:24 PM, Bi!! wrote:

Hi Mark. Much of that was just tongue in cheek....you to will be over
60 some day!! ;-) I was really referring to the classified stuff that
I used to buy in case lots...I had stopped buying first growths a few
years prior when pricing jumped in the 2000 vintage. I find that many
classified Bordeaux in the "great" vintage years ( and I don't know
what that means anymore since it seems that every other year is the
vintage of the century) need at least 10 years in the cellar for my
tastes but I'm just now drinking Cal Cabs from the mid to late 90's as
well as many Rhone and Bordeaux wines.


Yeah, I figured as much, Bill, but just had to weigh in anyway.
Clearly, the solution is for me to find my way out to Columbus to help
you polish some of those wines lingering in your cellar! ;-) For the
most part, I agree with you. More and more I am shying away from the
"great" vintages in favor of the "leaner" years, for reasons of taste,
pricing and life expectancy ;-)

Mark Lipton


--
alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net
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Old 26-04-2012, 11:00 PM posted to alt.food.wine
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Default Sticker shock

On Apr 26, 11:24*am, "Bi!!" wrote:
On Apr 25, 3:16*pm, Mark Lipton wrote:









On 4/25/12 3:00 PM, Bi!! wrote:


I quit Bordeaux in 2005. *Figured I could get more bang for my buck
elsewhere and at age 60 I wasn't going to each maturity with my
bottles anyway.


I'm with you here. Not buying any wines that need 20 years of age as I
may never drink them.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


I guess that's the wine geeks way of saying don't buy green bananas!


Not that I'm trying to dissuade either of you, but when I look at my CT
data, I find that the _latest_ start date for a drinking window of any
of the wines in my cellar is 2020 (for, of all things, a 2007 Stony
Hills Chardonnay!). *That means that all of the wines I now own will be
drinkable (according to CT, which usually underestimates readiness to my
tastes) before I turn 65 -- even my Dunn Howell Mountains! ;-) *Unless
one is buying old school Barolo or Madiran or First Growth Bordeaux
(bringing this thread full circle) I don't see many wines that wouldn't
be approachable at the very least in 5 years' time. *Now, the bang for
the buck argument I understand all too well.


Mark Lipton


--
alt.food.wine FAQ: *http://winefaq.cwdjr.net


Hi Mark. Much of that was just tongue in cheek....you to will be over
60 some day!! *;-) I was really referring to the classified stuff that
I used to buy in case lots...I had stopped buying first growths a few
years prior when pricing jumped in the 2000 vintage. *I find that many
classified Bordeaux in the "great" vintage years ( and I don't know
what that means anymore since it seems that every other year is the
vintage of the century) need at least 10 years in the cellar for my
tastes but I'm just now drinking Cal Cabs from the mid to late 90's as
well as many Rhone and Bordeaux wines.


Since I only have a 160 bottle cellar and no place to put more, I have
to be very selective about what gets put away for long term. Given the
investment needed for almost any classified growth and the fact that I
just got my Medicare card, doesn't inspire me to buy Bordeaux or even
Cali Cabs that require a whole lot of years to even be drinkable. I am
just starting to drink my 90's Dunns and they are still tannic.


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