rapid aging
On Mar 29, 11:50*am, RichD > wrote:
> Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood? > Is it possible to engineer an enzyme, which would > speed the process? *There is obviously a tremendous > potential demand for such a thing. > > Considering the size and age of the business, it seems > unlikely I'm the first to ever ask this question - > > -- > Rich I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or "aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is sort of like that of vanilla. In my experience, aging wine in glass bottles does nothing good and, if the bottle is corked, it will impart a cork flavor or, worse, the wine will spoil. It makes me wonder how stupid the tradition of corking wine bottles really is. |
rapid aging
In article >, aruzinsky > wrote:
>On Mar 29, 11:50=A0am, RichD > wrote: >> Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood? >> Is it possible to engineer an enzyme, which would >> speed the process? =A0There is obviously a tremendous >> potential demand for such a thing. >> >> Considering the size and age of the business, it seems >> unlikely I'm the first to ever ask this question - > >I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or >"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is >sort of like that of vanilla. In my experience, aging wine in glass >bottles does nothing good and, if the bottle is corked, it will impart >a cork flavor or, worse, the wine will spoil. It makes me wonder how >stupid the tradition of corking wine bottles really is. Many winemakers in New Zealand and other places have moved to screw caps for pretty much all wine varieties. The theory is that they bottle it when they like it, not a bit before. That way, the wine the like is the wine you get. :) Probably helps them keep for as long or longer than they would have under cork. You never break a cork, or have to push a cork into the bottle too. :) IME (as a consunmer only :) ), they are great. :) I have never had an "off" wine from a screw top bottle. |
rapid aging
"Bruce Sinclair" > wrote
in message ... > In article > >, > aruzinsky > wrote: >>On Mar 29, 11:50=A0am, RichD > wrote: snip It makes me wonder how >>stupid the tradition of corking wine bottles really is. > > Many winemakers in New Zealand and other places have moved to screw caps > for > pretty much all wine varieties. The theory is that they bottle it when > they > like it, not a bit before. That way, the wine the like is the wine you > get. > :) > Probably helps them keep for as long or longer than they would have under > cork. You never break a cork, or have to push a cork into the bottle too. > :) > > IME (as a consunmer only :) ), they are great. :) > I have never had an "off" wine from a screw top bottle. > Screw caps on bottles in Australia is now almost universal. I find myself using a cork screw less and less - perhaps once a fortnight - on imported bottles or on Australian wine from the early '00s. One interesting side effect of this trend is that I've noticed lots of 2nd hand cork screws for sale at op shops (thrift shops). Another is that I hardly ever encounter corked wine any more - hooray! Used to be about one in a dozen - a disgraceful and expensive blight on the wine industry. I can report that the only minor "off" note I've found in screw capped bottles is an infrequent faint note of reductive sulphur on first opening. This dissipates rapidly. Cheers! Martin |
rapid aging
On 03/04/2012 15:47, aruzinsky wrote:
> I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or > "aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is > sort of like that of vanilla. If we are talking about wine, that might be ONE of the reasons for ageing in oak. I am not sure I'd say it is the main one. > In my experience, aging wine in glass > bottles does nothing good That is not my experience, and not the experience of many other wine lovers who are prepared to pay a premium for an older vintage. You need to start with a decent wine of course. Cheap wines will most likely go downhill with time in bottle - and ageing in barrel probably wouldn't help much either! > and, if the bottle is corked, it will impart > a cork flavor or, worse, the wine will spoil. It makes me wonder how > stupid the tradition of corking wine bottles really is. The cork is a great innovation compared to stuffing an oily rag into the top of a jar (that's how it started). I tend to agree we can do better now, but it is still a controversial subject. -- www.winenous.co.uk |
rapid aging
On Apr 4, 9:26*pm, Steve Slatcher > wrote:
> ... That is not my experience, and not the experience of many other wine lovers who are prepared to pay a premium for an older vintage. Does your experience involve tasting the same batch of wine before and after aging in glass bottles? If "yes," how did you you remember the previous flavor so well and how do you know that your taste buds didn't change in the time interval. If "no," exactly how do you know? I propose the following experiment: 1. Buy two bottles of wine of the same recently made batch. 2. Put one bottle in a good wine cellar. 3. Pour the other bottle into a suitable container and store it in liquid nitrogen. Save the empty bottle. 4. Wait maybe 20 years. 5. Defrost the frozen wine and pour it back into the bottle. 6. Taste the two wines within a short interval of time. 7. Which tasted better? > ... > The cork is a great innovation compared to stuffing an oily rag into the > top of a jar (that's how it started). > ... Oh, really? Pretend that you are a cave man with an IQ greater than 150 who makes wine. Which would you choose?: 1. Oily Rag 2. Cork Plug 3. Cork Plug Soaked in Melted Bee's Wax |
rapid aging
On Mar 29, 11:50*am, RichD > wrote:
> Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood? no not >I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or >"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is >sort of like that of vanilla. I think it is a lot more complicated than that. From what i know [which is not very much] the aging process has a *lot* of reactions [one is of course the taste of wood], which are not totally well understood. In article >, aruzinsky > wrote: >I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or >"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is >sort of like that of vanilla. I think it is a lot more complicated than that. From what i know [which is not very much] the aging process has a *lot* of reactions [one is of course the taste of wood], which are not totally well understood. Right not it's more closer to magic than science. >In my experience, aging wine in glass bottles does nothing good and, if >the bottle is corked, it will impart a cork flavor or, worse, the wine >will spoil. It makes me wonder how stupid the tradition of corking >wine bottles really is. agreed The plastic plugs are great. |
rapid aging
On Apr 6, 11:45*am, Mike Tommasi > wrote:
> Please, no more crossposting, especially if you don't know what you are > talking about w.r.t. wine. We get pro myth-debunkers every month > trolling around here. > "Newsgroups: alt.food.wine, sci.chem From: Mike Tommasi > Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 19:45:53 +0200 Local: Fri, Apr 6 2012 11:45 am Subject: rapid aging" I AM NOT DELIBERATELY CROSS POSTING, YOU MORON! IT WAS MY INTENTION TO ONLY POST TO AND FROM SCI.CHEM OF THE GOOGLE USENET PORTAL AND I HAD NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF MY WRITINGS APPEARING ELSEWHERE. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO CROSS-POST AND I SUSPECT THE OP IS RESPONSIBLE. BUT, NOW THAT I KNOW THAT MY WRITING APPEARS IN ALT.FOOD.WINE, I HEREBY TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT ALT.FOOD.WINE IS LARGELY COMPOSED OF MORONS AND YOUR (PLURAL) HIVE MENTALITY IS INCREDIBLY STUPID. HERE, WE ARE MOSTLY SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS. |
rapid aging
On Apr 7, 7:52*pm, (Joe keane) wrote:
> On Mar 29, 11:50*am, RichD > wrote: > > > Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood? > > no not > > >I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or > >"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is > >sort of like that of vanilla. > > I think it is a lot more complicated than that. I take the position that the main purpose is simple and the lesser purposes are complicated. Sometimes woods other than oak are used. I am going to guess that selective absorption and selective adsorption are involved which are, of course, complicated. Neither, is expected to occur in glass bottles. >*From what i know [which > is not very much] the aging process has a *lot* of reactions [one is of > course the taste of wood], which are not totally well understood. > > In article >, > > aruzinsky > wrote: > >I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or > >"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is > >sort of like that of vanilla. > > I think it is a lot more complicated than that. *From what i know [which > is not very much] the aging process has a *lot* of reactions [one is of > course the taste of wood], which are not totally well understood. *Right > not it's more closer to magic than science. > > >In my experience, aging wine in glass bottles does nothing good and, if > >the bottle is corked, it will impart a cork flavor or, worse, the wine > >will spoil. *It makes me wonder how stupid the tradition of corking > >wine bottles really is. > > agreed > > The plastic plugs are great. The obvious question is, "Can the deleterious effects of cork be negated by soaking the cork in molten bee's wax?" I point out that, for a very long, milk cartons were made of cardboard soaked in wax. |
rapid aging
On Apr 8, 12:26*pm, Mike Tommasi > wrote:
> On 08/04/2012 18:26, aruzinsky wrote: > > > > > > > On Apr 6, 11:45 am, Mike > *wrote: > >> Please, no more crossposting, especially if you don't know what you are > >> talking about w.r.t. wine. We get pro myth-debunkers every month > >> trolling around here. > > > "Newsgroups: alt.food.wine, sci.chem > > From: Mike > > > Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 19:45:53 +0200 > > Local: Fri, Apr 6 2012 11:45 am > > Subject: rapid aging" > > > I AM NOT DELIBERATELY CROSS POSTING, YOU MORON! *IT WAS MY INTENTION > > TO ONLY POST TO AND FROM SCI.CHEM OF THE GOOGLE USENET PORTAL AND I > > HAD NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF MY WRITINGS APPEARING ELSEWHERE. *I DON'T > > KNOW HOW TO CROSS-POST AND I SUSPECT THE OP IS RESPONSIBLE. *BUT, NOW > > THAT I KNOW THAT MY WRITING APPEARS IN ALT.FOOD.WINE, I HEREBY TAKE > > THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT ALT.FOOD.WINE IS LARGELY COMPOSED OF > > MORONS AND YOUR (PLURAL) HIVE MENTALITY IS INCREDIBLY STUPID. *HERE, > > WE ARE MOSTLY SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS. > > As you would say, QED...- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Agreed; you are a moron, QED. |
rapid aging
On Apr 7, (Joe keane) wrote:
> > Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood? > > no not > > >I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or > >"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is > >sort of like that of vanilla. > > I think it is a lot more complicated than that. *From what i know [which > is not very much] the aging process has a *lot* of reactions [one is of > course the taste of wood], which are not totally well understood. *Right > not it's more closer to magic than science. No, the question regards aging in bottles. If you could cut 20 years down to 2, that would obviously be of great value. Then, what reactions are occurring in the bottle, and is it possible to accelerate that, with a magic enzyme? -- Rich .. |
rapid aging
aruzinsky wrote:
> On Apr 8, 12:26 pm, Mike Tommasi > wrote: >> On 08/04/2012 18:26, aruzinsky wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 6, 11:45 am, Mike > wrote: >>>> Please, no more crossposting, especially if you don't know what you are >>>> talking about w.r.t. wine. We get pro myth-debunkers every month >>>> trolling around here. >>> "Newsgroups: alt.food.wine, sci.chem >>> From: Mike > >>> Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 19:45:53 +0200 >>> Local: Fri, Apr 6 2012 11:45 am >>> Subject: rapid aging" >>> I AM NOT DELIBERATELY CROSS POSTING, YOU MORON! IT WAS MY INTENTION >>> TO ONLY POST TO AND FROM SCI.CHEM OF THE GOOGLE USENET PORTAL AND I >>> HAD NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF MY WRITINGS APPEARING ELSEWHERE. I DON'T >>> KNOW HOW TO CROSS-POST AND I SUSPECT THE OP IS RESPONSIBLE. BUT, NOW >>> THAT I KNOW THAT MY WRITING APPEARS IN ALT.FOOD.WINE, I HEREBY TAKE >>> THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT ALT.FOOD.WINE IS LARGELY COMPOSED OF >>> MORONS AND YOUR (PLURAL) HIVE MENTALITY IS INCREDIBLY STUPID. HERE, >>> WE ARE MOSTLY SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS. >> As you would say, QED...- Hide quoted text - >> > > Agreed; you are a moron, QED. As my primary school teacher used to say, when we were tossing names around at each other: "What you say is what you are". -- You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. * Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn. |
rapid aging
On Apr 9, 10:49*am, Patok > wrote:
> aruzinsky wrote: > > On Apr 8, 12:26 pm, Mike Tommasi > wrote: > >> On 08/04/2012 18:26, aruzinsky wrote: > > >>> On Apr 6, 11:45 am, Mike > *wrote: > >>>> Please, no more crossposting, especially if you don't know what you are > >>>> talking about w.r.t. wine. We get pro myth-debunkers every month > >>>> trolling around here. > >>> "Newsgroups: alt.food.wine, sci.chem > >>> From: Mike > > >>> Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2012 19:45:53 +0200 > >>> Local: Fri, Apr 6 2012 11:45 am > >>> Subject: rapid aging" > >>> I AM NOT DELIBERATELY CROSS POSTING, YOU MORON! *IT WAS MY INTENTION > >>> TO ONLY POST TO AND FROM SCI.CHEM OF THE GOOGLE USENET PORTAL AND I > >>> HAD NO PRIOR KNOWLEDGE OF MY WRITINGS APPEARING ELSEWHERE. *I DON'T > >>> KNOW HOW TO CROSS-POST AND I SUSPECT THE OP IS RESPONSIBLE. *BUT, NOW > >>> THAT I KNOW THAT MY WRITING APPEARS IN ALT.FOOD.WINE, I HEREBY TAKE > >>> THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SAY THAT ALT.FOOD.WINE IS LARGELY COMPOSED OF > >>> MORONS AND YOUR (PLURAL) HIVE MENTALITY IS INCREDIBLY STUPID. *HERE, > >>> WE ARE MOSTLY SCIENTISTS AND ENGINEERS. > >> As you would say, QED...- Hide quoted text - > > > Agreed; you are a moron, QED. > > * *As my primary school teacher used to say, when we were tossing names around > at each other: "What you say is what you are". > > -- > You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. > * > Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - And, Pee-wee Herman used to say, "I know you are, but, what am I?" Whatever validity such statements have are scientifically explained by the psychological phenomenon known as "projection." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection . If your primary school teacher were not a moron, he or she would have given a scientific explanation as I did. Examine the facts. Mike Tommasi falsely and too verbosely accused me of cross posting. He does not deserve to save face. He deserves to have his nose rubbed in it like a dog who pooped on the rug. Incidentally, I am not a civil engineer (pun intended). |
rapid aging
aruzinsky wrote:
> On Apr 9, 10:49 am, Patok > wrote: >> aruzinsky wrote: >>> On Apr 8, 12:26 pm, Mike Tommasi > wrote: >> > >>>> As you would say, QED... >> >>> Agreed; you are a moron, QED. >> >> As my primary school teacher used to say, when we were tossing names around >> at each other: "What you say is what you are". > > And, Pee-wee Herman used to say, "I know you are, but, what am I?" > Whatever validity such statements have are scientifically explained by > the psychological phenomenon known as "projection." See > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection . If your > primary school teacher were not a moron, he or she would have given a > scientific explanation as I did. My teacher would have been a moron to explain projection to first-graders. > Examine the facts. Mike Tommasi falsely and too verbosely accused me > of cross posting. He does not deserve to save face. He deserves to > have his nose rubbed in it like a dog who pooped on the rug. > Incidentally, I am not a civil engineer (pun intended). Whatever you are or not, it's your responsibility to know where what you write goes. As they say, "ignorance is no excuse". You *did* cross post, so Mike's accusation was not false. And if anything was verbose, it was your unwarranted shouting, Mr non-civil engineer. -- You'd be crazy to e-mail me with the crazy. But leave the div alone. * Whoever bans a book, shall be banished. Whoever burns a book, shall burn. |
rapid aging
In article >, RichD > wrote:
>On Apr 7, (Joe keane) wrote: >> > Is the chemistry of wine aging completely understood? >> no not >> >I am no expert, but I am under the impression that the main purpose or >> >"aging" any liquor in oak barrels is to impart an oak flavor which is >> >sort of like that of vanilla. >> I think it is a lot more complicated than that. =A0From what i know [whic= >h >> is not very much] the aging process has a *lot* of reactions [one is of >> course the taste of wood], which are not totally well understood. =A0Righ= >t >> not it's more closer to magic than science. > >No, the question regards aging in bottles. If you could >cut 20 years down to 2, that would obviously be of great >value. Then, what reactions are occurring in the bottle, >and is it possible to accelerate that, with a magic enzyme? To paraphrase my earlier post, all (or most) reactions that occur in bottles are considered 'bad'. That's why many/most winemakers are now putting the vast bulk of their production into screw top bottles. The 'bad' reactions are reduced, and the wine tastes like they want it to. IME, this is a very good thing. :) |
rapid aging
Bruce Sinclair wrote:
> To paraphrase my earlier post, all (or most) reactions that occur in bottles > are considered 'bad'. That's why many/most winemakers are now putting the > vast bulk of their production into screw top bottles. The 'bad' reactions > are reduced, and the wine tastes like they want it to. IME, this is a very > good thing. :) Not at all. Many reactions that take place in the bottle are desirable. To use the most obvious one, the cross-linking of tannins (by at least two different pathways) leads to the reduction of astringent flavors in red wine and a more palatable beverage for most people. The deleterious reactions mostly involve the unwanted ingress of oxygen, though an ongoing debate concerns whether some amount of oxygen ingress is a positive for the wine. To the extent that they control oxygen ingress more effectively, screwcaps are a positive development in the sealing of wine bottles. Mark Lipton (a wine loving Ph. D. chemist) |
rapid aging
In article >, Mark Lipton > wrote:
>Bruce Sinclair wrote: > >> To paraphrase my earlier post, all (or most) reactions that occur in bottles >> are considered 'bad'. That's why many/most winemakers are now putting the >> vast bulk of their production into screw top bottles. The 'bad' reactions >> are reduced, and the wine tastes like they want it to. IME, this is a very >> good thing. :) > >Not at all. Many reactions that take place in the bottle are desirable. > To use the most obvious one, the cross-linking of tannins (by at least >two different pathways) leads to the reduction of astringent flavors in >red wine and a more palatable beverage for most people. The deleterious >reactions mostly involve the unwanted ingress of oxygen, though an >ongoing debate concerns whether some amount of oxygen ingress is a >positive for the wine. To the extent that they control oxygen ingress >more effectively, screwcaps are a positive development in the sealing of >wine bottles. >Mark Lipton >(a wine loving Ph. D. chemist) :) Yep ... but ... can the wine maker not allow the aging process in their large containers to continue past what they would have before screw tops, so that the wine they bottle is the wine they want you to have ? My understanding is that they now do age past what they would have, and because they know there will be very limited changes once bottled, can leave it till they think it's ready. I do note however, that the wine they still bottle under corks is predominantly reds. :) :) |
rapid aging
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rapid aging
On 12/04/2012 00:26, Bruce Sinclair wrote:
> Yep ... but ... can the wine maker not allow the aging process in their > large containers to continue past what they would have before screw tops, so > that the wine they bottle is the wine they want you to have ? > > My understanding is that they now do age past what they would have, and > because they know there will be very limited changes once bottled, can leave > it till they think it's ready. I don't think winemakers release screwcapped bottles later than corked bottles. When bottles are released often has more to do with cash-flow than anything else. Some producers hold some bottles back and then sell them for more money, but that is in effect an investment for them, and more usually they prefer to get the income ASAP to run the business. Poor corks may allow more oxygen into the bottle than screwcaps, and corks do have other effects like sometimes adding bad flavours, or removing flavours. But screwcaps still do allow in some oxygen, and there are many other changes that take place in-bottle in the absence of oxygen. Also bear in mind also that different people want different things. Some like young wines, some very old. > I do note however, that the wine they still bottle under corks is > predominantly reds. :) :) That is true, but a lot of reds are put under screwcap too, particularly in Australia and New Zealand. -- www.winenous.co.uk |
rapid aging
On Apr 11, Mark Lipton > wrote:
> >To paraphrase my earlier post, all (or most) reactions > >that occur in bottles are considered 'bad'. That's why > >many/most winemakers are now putting the > >vast bulk of their production into screw top bottles. The > >'bad' reactionsare reduced, and the wine tastes like they want it to. > > Not at all. *Many reactions that take place in the bottle are > desirable. > To use the most obvious one, the cross-linking of tannins > (by at least two different pathways) leads to the reduction > of astringent flavors in red wine Elaborate please. We're talking anaerobic, right? > and a more palatable beverage for most people. It puzzles me, why do people drink young astringent wine? That's why I drink mostly white, they're less tannic. -- Rich |
rapid aging
On 12/04/2012 19:56, RichD wrote:
> On Apr 11, Mark > wrote: >> >> Not at all. Many reactions that take place in the bottle are >> desirable. >> To use the most obvious one, the cross-linking of tannins >> (by at least two different pathways) leads to the reduction >> of astringent flavors in red wine > > Elaborate please. > We're talking anaerobic, right? Yes, anaerobic. It is also called reductive (as opposed to the oxidative ageing that takes place in the presence of oxygen). See http://www.wineanorak.com/tannins.htm Especially the paragraph about 2/3 down. -- www.winenous.co.uk |
rapid aging
On 4/12/12 2:56 PM, RichD wrote:
> On Apr 11, Mark Lipton > wrote: >> Not at all. Many reactions that take place in the bottle are >> desirable. >> To use the most obvious one, the cross-linking of tannins >> (by at least two different pathways) leads to the reduction >> of astringent flavors in red wine > > Elaborate please. > We're talking anaerobic, right? Both aerobic and anaerobic cross-linking of tannins is possible. The aerobic pathway probably involves the intermediacy of phenolic radicals, produced from the reactions of phenols with triplet oxygen, undergoing something akin to Wurtz coupling, possibly aided by transition metals such as copper should they be present in the wine in catalytic quantities. The anaerobic pathways involves the condensation of acetaldehyde, an oxidation product of the alcohol in the wine, with two phenolic molecules to produce a methylene-crosslinked biphenol. That's just basic electrophilic aromatic substitution, a reaction that every student in sophomore organic learns. > >> and a more palatable beverage for most people. > > It puzzles me, why do people drink young > astringent wine? That's why I drink mostly white, > they're less tannic. Some people like a bit of bitterness in their wines. Others drink their wines while eating red meat and the fats in the meat mask the tannins of the wine. Some others have little choice: if you want to order a red wine in a restaurant, you're limited to the (usually very young) red wines present on their wine list. It's the rare restaurant that can afford to cellar red wines as long as is needed to resolve their tannins. Mark Lipton -- alt.food.wine FAQ: http://winefaq.cwdjr.net |
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